Rachel Maddow on the GOP Miniverse.

If you pay attention the the Republicans it often seems like they’re living in their own little world. A recent Daily Kos/Research 2000 poll seems to indicate that impression may be correct. Not surprisingly we’ve got FOX News to blame for it:

Visit msnbc.com for Breaking News, World News, and News about the Economy

Spend any amount of time watching FOX News and it’s clear that they’re helping to promote many of the flat out lies that Republicans are shouting at various town halls. All the major news channels have their opinion/editorial shows, Rachel Maddow is one of MSNBC’s, but if you watch the reporting of news outside of those shows it’s clear that the FOX anchors inject their opinions into their reporting quite a bit more than any other network.

It brought to mind the time before cable was available when we had just the big three networks and, if you were lucky, a smattering of UHF channels to choose from. The UHF channels often didn’t have much, if any, news programming so you watched one of the big three to find out what was going on. Now this may just be the fuzzy memory of nostalgia kicking in, but as I recall the big three news programs generally reported the same set of facts on most stories with any editorializing being labeled clearly as such in its own segment. Sure sometimes one network would scoop a story, but overall if you saw a news report on one network the facts would be pretty much the same as either of the other two networks reporting on it.

With the advent of cable and the 24 hour news channel the race to get a story first resulted in a lot more speculation and hearsay showing up in any reporting of something happening right that second. That’s annoying enough, but with the rise of FOX News we’ve moved beyond having to deal with a lot of air time devoted to anchors guessing at what’s happening and scrambling for info to anchors actively trying to spin news stories to match the talking points of one of the two major political parties. Throw in “pundits” that are willing to spout off the most batshit insane bullshit you’ve ever heard from someone who wasn’t wearing a tinfoil hat and you have a recipe for what we have today.

Which isn’t to say that MSNBC and CNN are paragons of TV journalism, but it’s amazing how less misinformed viewers of either of those two networks are compared to the folks who follow FOX News. Consider this survey by Public Policy Polling*PDF file in which of the questions was: “Do you think the Government should stay out of Medicare?”

The results? 39% of respondents said YES! An additional 15% said they weren’t sure. (Note: For those of you who aren’t clear on the issue, Medicare is a government run program. I say this not to the usual SEB audience, but to any morons who might be passing by.)

Now not all of the people who answered yes to that question considered themselves Conservative, some felt they were Liberal or Moderates, but when you break it down by those categories you find that 59% of those who answered “yes” identified themselves as Conservatives. Now it’s possible that some of the people misheard the question and thought they had said “health care” and not “Medicare”—and there’s a part of me that hopes that’s the case—but that’s still a lot of people who don’t know that Medicare is run by the government.

It says something that the pundits on FOX News have made heavy use of the word socialism in addition to suggesting that the Obama administration shares a lot of similarities with the fascist Nazis. Glen Beck alone has made heavy use of Nazi imagery when ranting and crying (literally) over some perceived outrage on the part of Obama. So what do we end up seeing at various town halls across the nation? Angry Republicans with pictures of Obama as Hitler yelling about the socialist programs Obama supports blissfully unaware of the fact that Socialism is pretty much the opposite of Fascism. I guess that’s just a sign of how evil Obama really is that he manages to be two opposing -isms at the same time.

Or perhaps it’s a sign of how fucking clueless your average Republican is these days.

133 thoughts on “Rachel Maddow on the GOP Miniverse.

  1. Conservatives are generally less educated, they mostly live in closed off rural areas, and they watch Fox News in large numbers. Trifecta. Like poor southerners who owned no slaves but fought in the Civil War, these people are being manipulated by the elites into voting against their interests. History repeats itself, simple as that.

  2. Oh dear. This isn’t a surprise at all but thankfully there are those great polls to back it up that Fox isn’t really news and that Republicans seem to be stupid and dismissive of actual facts.

    Shouldn’t there be a law to validate whether Fox constitutes as “news” or not and then we can finally have the official Fox Comic Channel.

  3. Yes, really amazing but true. We need, by the way, to make up the way to build a impartial news channel, no so easy.

  4. So, if republicans are fucking clueless, are you insinuating that democrats have all the answers?

    Neither party is clueless.  Neither party has all the answers.  Both parties have their agendas which the media plays off and they all know exactly what they are doing.  You’ve got your left leaning media and your right leaning media.  You have to watch both to find the answer which is somewhere between.  Buy into one or the other and you are no better than the people you berate.

  5. So, what you’re saying is one side or the other is always right?  That’s very black and white.  Nothing in politics is black and white -it’s all shades of grey.

  6. How about a class action suit against the Fox network? In the “land of the lawsuit” I am surprised someone hasn’t found a loophole to go after them.  I mean sure free speech n all, but isn’t damage being done through the misinformation campaign?

  7. Gregory, no one has suggested that only one side “is always right” as you seem to suggest. There are some Republicans out there that seem to be able to grasp reality over ideology. That said it’s pretty obvious that the folks relying on FOX News are stunningly misinformed compared to the other networks.

    And, no, I don’t think a law is the answer nor do I think a class action lawsuit would work. Like a lot of things in life what it’s going to take is education and people calling out FOX whenever it spreads bullshit. There’s at least a couple of anchors on FOX that have shown they can get the record straight (Sheppard is one that comes to mind), but they’re being overwhelmed by the rest of the idiots on that network.

    The thing I find most amazing about the FOX Network is that Rupert Murdoch has actually expressed a distaste for Bill O’Reilly, but he keeps him on the air because he pulls in the ratings. Murdoch basically is willing to go with whatever gets the highest ratings regardless of how much damage it does.

  8. So, what you’re saying is one side or the other is always right?  That’s very black and white.  Nothing in politics is black and white -it’s all shades of grey.

    No, Gregory, I’m saying that the once-substantial Republican party is now dominated by people who seem to have lost the reality signal.  Invade the wrong country, teach kids abstinence-only, and call health care Naziism… all shades of gray, right?

    Saying “it’s all relative” is what one does to excuse the inexcusable.  The Democratic party is mostly carrying the progressive banner right now, though not as well as I’d like them to.  As Bill Maher said; “The Democrats have moved to the right, and the Republicans have moved into a mental institution.”

  9. There are a couple of things going on here. One, back in Reagan’s administration the seldom-Right got their wish of getting rid of the equal-time clause for opinion broadcast, so there wasn’t the need to allow opposing viewpoints their say. Two, there are a startling number of people out there who give no critical thought whatever to something simply because it confirms their own opinions. These people will hear/see something on the teevee and know it’s true “because it was on the teevee” and then turn around and answer conflicting evidence with “you don’t believe everything you see on TV, do you?”.

    Absolutely mind-blowing, like the people who tell you the Bible is real because it says it is.

    The big thing that gets me is that since things like Fox CLAIM to be news, then all its programming “becomes” news. Reminds me of watching McLaughlin Group with my dad as a kid, and he thought he was catching up on news doing that. We got into a big argument one day because he kept telling me that McLaughlin is how you learn about issues, and I kept saying that no, McLaughlin was how you could watch Jerry Springer like arguing and pretend it was highbrow. It’s not like at any point any of the participants would ever say, “Huh. I hadn’t considered that point. I believe I may have to rethink my position.”

    Funny about that.

  10. The assertion that Fox News is more inaccurate than other major news network is ludicrous.  Gregory rightly points out at that all news stations have a reasonably high level of inaccuracy and are slanted towards their particular political bias.  He also very rationally suggests that both parties have their strengths and weaknesses, and people are crucifying him for a correct opinion.  The author of is clearly uneducated to suggest that facism and socialism are opposites, (and is clearly a democrat) yet suggests Republicans are stupid?

    It sounds like the author and those who have commented could stand to move towards the middle and attempt to have reasonable dialogue with the opposing party in order to unify the country.

  11. I don’t know that I have mentioned this on SEB, but I am a Department of Interior Indian.

    I have all the credentials that would allow me to go to a US Public Service Hospital. Completely FREE.

    Well its not completely free, it’s free for me. But most of you that pay taxes would be flipping the bill.

    So yes there is a public option. The problem is finding a way to get you joined up in a Tribe. And then converting St. Marys to the USP Hospital system. I don’t think they are going to like the idea however.

    I should mention this. I have a Blue Cross Health Insurance policy. I pay about $1000 a month. Thats for the two of us. It’s $5000 deductible.

    In other words it is a catastrophic health plan. The reason I do not go to the USP is because it is rationed care. They have X number of dollars. If you are female your health problems are usually reproductive problems. ( You have babies 🙁

    But if you want to go to one. I am all for you signing up. The legislation would be easily modified. You are made an Indian based on being born in what is now America.

    I actually do not care much for either side ( Republicans or Democrats ) They are both mostly worthless in value to the Human Race. I am actually pretty opened minded to this idea.

  12. JON: The author of is clearly uneducated to suggest that facism and socialism are opposites, (and is clearly a democrat) yet suggests Republicans are stupid?

    Really? You really want to argue that, fucknut?

    Okay, let’s see what the dictionary has to say. First up, Socialism….

    a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

    Okay, so, the community as a whole runs things. Got it. Now how about fascism?

    a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

    Hmm. One guy in charge, the community has no say at all. Sounds just like socialism, doesn’t it?

    Fucknut.

  13. KPatrick – First of all, the use of ‘fucknut’ doesn’t help your case.  It just shows your ignorance and your immaturity. 

    Let’s try again with your definitions:
    Socialism – Redistributing wealth more equally between different classes and segments of the population

    Facism – Forbidding and suppressing criticism of the government and opposes class conflict.

    Yeah, not opposites.  Try reading.  Try learning.  Might be more effective than sitting around insulting people.

    It is possible to have socialist viewpoints and fascist viewpoints at the same time…which is the case with this administration.

  14. First up, show of hands, who thinks ‘fucknut” is a pretty appropriate description of old Jon-boy, here?

    Second, you don’t win debates by redefining words to suit you. My definitions come straight from a dictionary, yours appear to come from what passes for your brain.

    Try reading something factual and not just the collected works of Ann Coulter and Glen Beck.

    Fucknut.

  15. This is about the question “Do you think the Government should stay out of Medicare?”  The 39% is probably only slightly distorted by people mistakenly reading “health care” in place of “Medicare”. A bigger problem is the poor word choice. “Stay out” sort of reads like “stay out because you’ll mess something up”. I feel like that could be leading many of the responses. And rather than ignorance of the fact that Medicare is a government program, “stay out” can mean “don’t make any changes”. Seriously, those data should be thrown in the trash.

  16. KPatrick – you can continue to insult me all you want, and ask other people to insult me.

    That doesn’t change the fact that YOU are wrong.  Not only are you wrong, you are STUPID, because you don’t understand what you read in the dictionary.  I don’t refine words to suit me, I tell it like it is.

    I don’t read Ann Coulter – I don’t read Glen Beck.

  17. No one “crucified” Gregory for his comment. In fact things didn’t get testy until you showed up, Jon.

    As for socialism and fascism everything I recall reading about the two in school puts them at opposite ends of the spectrum. Socialism being more liberal and Fascism being more Conservative. Now I admit it’s been a long time since I took PoliSci so perhaps definitions have changed, but you provide nothing to convince me that’s the case.

    You go on to say:

    The author of is clearly uneducated to suggest that facism and socialism are opposites, (and is clearly a democrat) yet suggests Republicans are stupid?

    I am not a Democrat, they really aren’t liberal enough in my opinion. I am officially an Independent as I am not registered with either party.

    As for being uneducated, that very well may be true on this particular topic. So try educating me instead of just whining about it.

    It sounds like the author and those who have commented could stand to move towards the middle and attempt to have reasonable dialogue with the opposing party in order to unify the country.

    The Republicans have made it clear that they are not interested in having a reasonable dialog of any kind. They are only interested in spouting off with lies and misinformation in an attempt to defeat needed reform for purely ideological reasons. They seem oblivious to the fact that in many cases they are acting against their own self-interest.

    A particularly ironic example was the Republican activist who showed up to disrupt a town hall and ended up being injured in a fight he helped to start. The poor fellow then had the gall to complain that he didn’t have health insurance without noting the irony. Of course it looks like Mr. Gladney may be over-playing his injuries for the sake of politics based on the video of the event.

    It’s also clear that you, Jon, are not interested in a reasonable debate as you make assertions like the following:

    That doesn’t change the fact that YOU are wrong.  Not only are you wrong, you are STUPID, because you don’t understand what you read in the dictionary.  I don’t refine words to suit me, I tell it like it is.

    Without anything to back up the claim.

  18. Well acording to Jon, Canada has been run by Fascists for most of the last century. I am sure glad America joined WWII with us Fasicts and helped us turn the tide.  I would have hated to lose to those um…. now what were they?

  19. Actually Les, your entire blog is a crucifixion of anything but your ideals.  My assesment of the reaction to Greg’s comment justified the use of the word crucifixion, and I stand by that.  He made a perfectly reasonable statement, and people that commented after that made ridiculous, false statements.  You may not be registered as a democract, but as you rightly acknowledge, you are extremely liberal, so my classification of you is as accurate as it need be.  I didn’t whine about you being uneducated, I just pointed out that the viewpoint you expressed is uneducated.  The republicans are certainly interested in reasonable dialogue.  The problem is that the democrats are too concerned with emphasizing that their majority means that they have power.  Republicans are not spouting off lies and misinformation – that is what you, as a liberal – are attempting to do in this blog…and you are doing a poor job of it.  Your lies, are not believable, and only people who are stupid will not be able to see through them. 

    I am certainly interested in a reasonable debate.  But I am correct in my assertion that KPatric was wrong, and stupid.  If you want to call out someone for not being interested in debate, start with the person that is labeling others as a ‘fucknut’ as the starting point for conversation.

  20. Lordklegg – I did not say, nor insinuate, that Canada has been run by Fascists for any portion of time.  You are misguided, or inattentive or both.

    I merely pointed out that it is possible to exhibit both facist and socialist tendencies simultaneously, as is the case with the Obama administration.

  21. Jon writes…

    Actually Les, your entire blog is a crucifixion of anything but your ideals.

    That’s pretty fucking funny. Imagine that. A blog that reflects the personal opinions and biases of its author. What is the world coming to?

    My assesment of the reaction to Greg’s comment justified the use of the word crucifixion, and I stand by that.  He made a perfectly reasonable statement, and people that commented after that made ridiculous, false statements.

    Please enlighten me on what ridiculous false statements were made.

    You may not be registered as a democract, but as you rightly acknowledge, you are extremely liberal, so my classification of you is as accurate as it need be.

    So I guess that makes my classification of you as a moronic asshole as accurate as it needs to be, right? Surely you’ll grant me the same privilege to classify you in whatever manner I please as you’ve taken with me, yes?

    I didn’t whine about you being uneducated, I just pointed out that the viewpoint you expressed is uneducated.  The republicans are certainly interested in reasonable dialogue.

    The hell they are. All one has to do is watch any recent town hall to see how reasonable their dialog has been. See the Barney Frank video clip I embedded earlier.

    The problem is that the democrats are too concerned with emphasizing that their majority means that they have power.

    Give me a fucking break. The Democrats have been bending over backwards trying to appease the Republicans in the name of so-called Bipartisanship and even after they caved on all manner of Republican demands for the stimulus package the vast majority of Republicans voted against it anyway.

    Republicans are not spouting off lies and misinformation – that is what you, as a liberal – are attempting to do in this blog…and you are doing a poor job of it.  Your lies, are not believable, and only people who are stupid will not be able to see through them.

    Thank you for validating the very point I was making with this entry. You are a prime example of what I wrote about. It’s very handy that you came by when you did.

    I am certainly interested in a reasonable debate.  But I am correct in my assertion that KPatric was wrong, and stupid.  If you want to call out someone for not being interested in debate, start with the person that is labeling others as a ‘fucknut’ as the starting point for conversation.

    And yet all you’ve done so far is make a lot of assertions with nothing to back them up. So much for debate.

  22. No problem Jon,
    Please explain to me how the administration ITSELF is expressing Fasicst tendancies as I am a foriegner and clearly missing something you are seeing.  I get all the US, British and Canadian news here and I follow it all.  I see a healthy level of open discusion. One side clearly is trying to paint thier fellow citizens with the brush of one of the ‘great evils” of the last century, which I do not see any relevance to improving the overall health of the populace or the discusion itself.

    One of your presidnets said (roughly qouted) “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself”, yet significant portions of the US media are feeding the US population bucketloads of fear. “BE AFRAID” the US mantra of modern times.
    Be afraid of terrorists, be afraid of the government, be afraid of the “Other”.  it’s no way to live your life.

  23. A blog that presents your opinions is fine.  A blog that presents your opinions as FACT is not fine.  You are liberal: democrat=liberal, republican=conservative.  Being classified as a democrat or as a liberal shouldn’t enrage you enough to have to call me a moronic asshole.  Your doing so illustrates that you are one instead.  The republicans are interested in REASONABLE dialogue.  Barney Frank was not reasonable.  The entire health care proposal has not been reasonable.  Come up with an idea that doesn’t suck—ie limited tort as part of the healthcare system as Texas has done—and we can talk about it.  Democrats have not been bending over backwards too please anyone.  They have been smacked in the face with pleas from their constituents to not pass ridiculous health care reform bill.  My quote about your lies and misinformation does not in anyway validate the point that you were trying to make – and you are very foolish to suggest that it does. 

    Any assertions that I have made I have backed up reasonably, which is more than I can say for you or for KPatrick.

  24. All it takes to see what morons the networks are is to see them do a story on something you know the details on.  The misinformation, unchecked assumptions and outright screwed up news is unimaginable.

    The difference is that most networks are clueless.  Fox News isn’t.  Otherwise they would have registered as a NEWS network and not an ENTERTAINMENT network.

    End of story.

  25. Lordklegg, the administration is exhibiting fascist tendencies by seeking to slow/eliminate the flow of information about the stupidity of their healthcare plan from the opposition party. 

    I agree that the US media does feed fear into the population.  You are correct that both the liberal media and the conservative media do this.  The problem with this post, and this blog, is that the author refuses to acknowledge that there are two sides to the issue.

  26. Lordklegg, the administration is exhibiting fascist tendencies by seeking to slow/eliminate the flow of information about the stupidity of their healthcare plan from the opposition party.

    I don’t like the health care plan, Jon.  I don’t buy into any system where the people who create it don’t want to be subject to it. (and for the rest of you, I know Obama didn’t really say that, but I don’t see them lining up to volunteer either)

    On the hand… Give me a break!  All I see is the Democrats saying “Read the bill”  and that’s damned good advice.  And son of a bitch, when you actually do read the bill you find out that the Democrats have a better track record with the truth about what’s in the bill than the Republicans.  I don’t see this ‘cover up’ that you say the Dems are pulling.  What I do see is that a lot of the Republicans are saying this or that is in the bill and then when they’re called on it, they say “Well, no not really.”

    And btw.. Don’t start talking about ‘fascist tendencies’ Governments lie.  Expecting them not to (even Obama) is the worst kind of silliness.  It is the fault of the media when they actually help perpetuate the lies instead of trying to help us sort through them.

    Which brings us back to Fox News….. They’re not news, they’re story-mongers.  If it bleeds it leads.  They don’t investigate, they repeat what people tell them.  They don’t apologize, they cry “persecution” and blame someone else.  They use the same tactics they admonish others for and defend it by saying “We’re right, so we’re allowed.”  If there is anything to like about them, it is that they don’t seem to be doing as well as they once were, but then, neither are the other big networks.  Maybe people are starting to wise up, but I doubt it.

    Fox News is a grossly painful example of poor news broadcasting, even among other poor news networks.

  27. I don’t have much to add to what Les and others have said. I would just say that socialists do not bust up union protests, as Fascists did. Socialists do not align themselves with big business. Socialists try to reduce racial tensions and try to make it about rich vs. poor, Fascists do the opposite.
    if Obama was a Fascist then the people at Fox News would be in concentration camps as we speak. If Obama was a Fascist, people like Jon and the woman in the video would be getting beaten up in the street right now as we speak. And if Obama was a Nazi (which would actually require that he be German, not black, for fucks sake) Barney Frank would not be up there arguing for Obama, Barney would be lucky to be shoveling snow as slave labor.
    Lack of education, like I said earlier, is what makes people like Jon so susceptible to Republican talking points. Obama is not perfect, but an educated country would be supporting him on this issue.

  28. Les, I did not prove your point.  Your points are ludicrous, and they are not based in reality, therefore they cannot be proven.  You can keep saying that all day, but it simply makes you appear dumber and dumber everytime you say it because of your lack of reasoning skills.

  29. Swordsbane – I am glad to hear that you don’t like the health care plan.  That shows a hint of discretion on your part. 

    For your information, I have read the bill, and that’s how I know how awful and stupid it is.  If there is anyone who doesn’t think that, they need to read it again and use their brains this time to evaluate it.  The private insurance industry IS NOT THE PROBLEM in the healthcare system.  Creating a public option, or a co-op WILL NOT REDUCE COSTS OR INCREASE COVERAGE.  There are two things that can reduce costs and increase coverage.  One is to create a limited tort system as has been done in Texas.  The other thing is to eliminate fraud. 

    None of the liberals on this blog can refute that because of the evidence behind it. Just look at the healthcare system in the various states, including Texas and Massachusettes.  Instead, everyone is too concerned with insulting each other and criticizing the other side.

    Realize that NEITHER REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS want to deal with tort reform, because of the massive amount of money that lawyers put in the pockets of each party.  However, in the current situation, conservatives are better able to push tort reform since they are the opposition party at the moment.

    Unfortunately, the Obama administration is exhibiting facist tendencies.  You admitted it when you say that governments lie. I don’t expect the Obama administration not to lie – but I will still call it like it is, so don’t suggest I shouldn’t.  The media, and by that I mean the LIBERAL MEDIA, not Fox News, is who is perpetuating the lies, and because the idiots on this blog have chosen to believe the LIBERAL MEDIA as fact they have a jaded perspective instead of actually getting involved in the issues themselves.

    I don’t watch Fox News to get the facts.  I go to the source material to get the facts, and Fox News is much closer to the facts than any of the other major news networks.  If any of you actually examined the source material, you would not be able to suggest anything otherwise.

  30. Positive – I said that Obama is exhibiting Facist tendencies, not that a full-scale facist system is in place.  Besides, the main point isn’t that Obama is a facist, it is that the author thinks that socialism and facism are opposites, which they are not, and it is possible to exhibit both socialist and facist tendencies at the same time.

    You are clearly the one that is uneducated.  I suggest you start with kindergarten and go through your entire educational system again, and then maybe you will actually be able to say something that is worth reading.

  31. decrepitoldfool, I am not a paid blog troll.  I have no idea who Gregory is, so I suppose that he could be.  However, he is the only commenter that has said anything that makes any kind of sense at all. 

    Neither of us are naturally stupid – but given your assumptions, you must be.

  32. Rachel is right.  You can’t have a dialog, even if you genuinely want to unless both sides can agree on the facts.

    Jon, it’s really easy: unless you want to use the facts that can be supported instead of hearsay and misleading supposition, there is nothing for you here.  From your perspective we will always be the evil fascist/socialist Democrats (even though very few of us actually are Democrats) and you will be the crazy nutball who just parrots what the right says is true, or a troll just out for kicks.

    I kind of hope you are a troll.  Otherwise, you may actually think Les is the one that looks uneducated, without a hold on reality.  You may actually believe that what he says proves your point.  I don’t like to see anyone that clueless fill themselves with pride thinking they’ve won when it’s clear to everyone but them they’ve done nothing of the sort.  It’s rather sad, made worse by the fact that you think I am the clueless one and will probably say so, even though you read this, see that sentence and know I’m waiting for you to tell me.

  33. Swordsbane – I have been using facts this whole time.  Nothign I said has been hearsay or misleading supposition.  I am not calling YOU an evil fascist/socialist democrat.  All I am saying is that the author is WRONG to say that socialism and facism are two opposites.  They ARE NOT, they NEVER WILL BE, and it is possible to exhibit facist and socialist tendencies at the same time.

    I am not a crazy nutball, and I never will be.  I am not saying what the right says is true – I am saying what is true.

    I do actually thing that Les looks unedeucated, and I do think that he is uneducated, and I do think that he has no grasp on reality.  I am neither clueless nor filled with pride, but Les is.  He actually believes this crap that he is writing. 

    Notice swordsbane, that neither you nor others besides me are actually talking about issues, and are just trying to tell me that I’m wrong and stupid.

  34. Wow, I’m impressed.  You did pretty much what I thought you would; reiterated that what you say is the truth as if saying it just one more time will convince us.

    What I notice is that what you say and what the Republicans say seem to be one in the same, and when asked to back it up, neither you nor they seem able to quote one passage of the bill, quote one economist that agrees with you or bring anything to prove what you claim except more unsubstantiated Republican talking points.  It’s not about the issues yet.  It’s about you.  You came in with some wild claims and have still not backed them up.  You make the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.  We don’t have to prove that what you say isn’t true.  It isn’t true until you prove that it is.

    That is why everyone is saying you’re wrong, because you have no credibility when you don’t back up what you say.

    Now you’re starting to sound like a troll.

  35. Swordsbane – of course I will say what you thought I would.  You say what I think you will.  You don’t talk about the issue you just say I’m wrong.  So I tell you that I’m not wrong.  We’ll go back and forth forever, it will be lots of fun and very fulfilling and meaningful.

    And in your response to looking for an economist – READ THE CBO REPORT!!!  The CBO (congressional budget office for the uneducated) is a BI-PARTISAN COMITTEE.  And they don’t think the plan can work financially.

    The primary claim I am making is that facism and socialism are not opposites, which I have backed up.

    You, and others, sound more like trolls than I do.  So lets stop talking about trolls, and talk about something more productive.

  36. Hell.  I don’t think the plan can work financially, and even some democrats are having second-thoughts about that.  That’s the first thing you’ve said that makes any sense.  Was that so hard?

    But that wasn’t what everyone is getting on your case about.  You’re wrong about socialism and fascism.  The dictionary definition seems clear enough.  If you think it means something else, I can’t help you.

    regarding Obama’s fascist tendencies.  Let me ask you a question:  Did George Bush exhibit any fascist tendencies?  Of course just because he did, doesn’t mean Obama didn’t, right?  Let’s look at the facts:  Obama has said things about the health care plan that aren’t true?

    No.  He’s said some things about the plan that he can’t know, like “It will work” or “It will lower prices” or “It won’t cause anyone to lose their coverage”

    But it’s a far cry from that to being a fascist.  He’s a socialist, not a fascist…. at least not any more than any other president.  Try finding a president who didn’t think the public didn’t need to know EVERYTHING that went on inside the government or that there weren’t SOME times when it was necessary to bend the law a little bit to get the job done.  We survived Dubya (barely).  We’ll get through Obama’s administration.  don’t worry yourself overmuch about that.  Crying “fascism” every time the government screws you will make you one tired guy with very little to show for it.

    You also raised up Fox News as the network closest to the real story.  Shoving down my inappropriate laughter for a minute:  How can you say that knowing what they’ve been doing the last few weeks..

    Death panels, government takeover of health care, town-hall crashers being just concerned citizens who are largely “respectful”

    They are consistently further from the truth, they make up stuff, they call anyone who disagrees with them names and none of them have explained why they are a news network in name only and not actually registered as one.

    Care to take a stab at any of that?

  37. Swordsbane – I’m glad you agree the plan can’t work financially.  So stop calling people stupid for protesting against it.  It doesn’t make sense.  Let’s move to the middle and get a plan that does make sense.

    I am not wrong about socialism and facism.  No one has been able to display any reasonable evidence that indicates that I am wrong.  I didn’t say that Obama was a facist, or that he was a socialist.  I said, that facism and socialism are not opposites, and that the obama administration has exhibited socialist and facist TENDENCIES.  I keep repeating what I am saying in the hopes that you will actually read it, instead of misreading it. 

    Look, my point has never been to scream that Obama is a facist.  I think that Obama has the potential in him to be a very good president.  The reason he was elected in my opinion is that he convinced moderates and conservatives that he could be bipartisan.  I think if he would make a sincere effort (which I don’t believe he has to this point) to be bipartisan he would be a very effective president.  My point, originally, and I’ll say it again, is that facism and socialism are not OPPOSITES. 

    Additionally, I don’t really care to be an advocate for Fox News…as I said previously, the entire media system, as well as the political system is screwed up.  But I also don’t want to see Fox News innappropriately trashed.  They are NOT worse than the other news networks.  I think they are better.  If you don’t, fine.  I am not sure what you are referring to when you say death panels, government takeover of health care, town-hall crashers who are respectful concerned citizens.

    In response to those issues, I know that the real genesis of the death panel is not the proposed health care bill, it was already passed in the stimulus bill.  And before you say that its not in there, go read it.  Government takeover of healthcare is what is being discussed as part of this reform, so why wouldn’t a news network report on that?  Have you been to any of the town halls?  A lot of the protestors are largely respectful, and there are others that are mad and disrespectful, but who wouldn’t be given the craziness of the proposed reform bill?

    Fox News may call people names, I don’t know what you are referring to, but the other side does the same thing, so why pick on Fox about it?  There is a lot of name-calling in politics, its a shame.  And if you look back, you’ll see that it was a liberal on this blog post (KPatrick) who first started the name calling with me.

    So again, let’s move to the middle, let’s deal with reality.

  38. But I also don’t want to see Fox News innappropriately trashed. They are NOT worse than the other news networks. I think they are better. If you don’t, fine. I am not sure what you are referring to when you say death panels, government takeover of health care, town-hall crashers who are respectful concerned citizens.

    Umm… that would be a reference to FOX News, which keeps reporting those things as if they were connected to reality.  Along with idiotic obsession about Obama’s birth certificate.  A little bit of these things happens on the other networks (except PBS) but FOX is the free-range insanity reserve in the media universe.

  39. decrepitoldfool – yes, it is a reference to fox news. What is your point? 

    What is the idiotic obsession with Obama’s birth certificate?  You mean their assertion (which is more likely to be correct than not) that he actually is not eligible to be president of the united states?

    Fox is not free-range insanity any more than the media system as a whole is.

  40. I didn’t say you were calling him a fascist, but that he had fascist tendencies.  The distinction is a little too fine for my tastes, but I’ll let that slide.

    Socialism….

    a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

    fascism?

    a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

    Hmm.. I believe your “fascist tendencies” argument rests on the idea that Obama is intentionally lying to or misleading the public about health care.  But lying isn’t fascist.  It’s just stupid.

    Additionally, I don’t really care to be an advocate for Fox News…as I said previously, the entire media system, as well as the political system is screwed up.  But I also don’t want to see Fox News innappropriately trashed.  They are NOT worse than the other news networks.  I think they are better.

    Whether you care to be an advocate of something or not is irrelevant.  You say that Fox News is the best among the news networks, but it’s not even a real news network, by their own admission in court, they are an entertainment network.  They only pretend to be a real news network on camera.  When it actually matters, they aren’t.

    Government takeover of healthcare is what is being discussed as part of this reform, so why wouldn’t a news network report on that?  Have you been to any of the town halls?  A lot of the protestors are largely respectful, and there are others that are mad and disrespectful, but who wouldn’t be given the craziness of the proposed reform bill?

    Fox News says that the crazies out there ARE just voicing their opinion about the health care bill.  When the Democrats did the same thing during the Bush presidency, the Republicans (AND Fox News) called them loons and unamerican for trying to “silence” free speech.

    Fox News may call people names, I don’t know what you are referring to, but the other side does the same thing, so why pick on Fox about it?  There is a lot of name-calling in politics, its a shame.  And if you look back, you’ll see that it was a liberal on this blog post (KPatrick) who first started the name calling with me.

    It doesn’t matter one bit that there is name-calling on this blog.  If you don’t want to be called names, go away.  But a news network should refrain from doing that.  As you say, they all do it, but the “names” Fox News calls those who disagree with them are: terrorist sympathizer, traitor, un-patriotic.  They use ambush journalism and then bitch about other networks doing it.  Other networks say they’re using ambush journalism and they say that they have to get to the truth, so it’s okay.  They have a clear double-standard. What they do is news.  What others do is unethical.  Never mind that they’re both doing the same things.

  41. My facist tendencies argument rests on lying, for one thing, and the suppression of opposition, for another thing.  The administration should support dialogue from both sides to develop a bipartisan plan, rather than try to force a very partisan plan through.  Lying, when it involves witholding information and suppression of the opposition, is both stupid and a facist tendecy.

    Whether Fox News is an entertainment network or a news network does not have any bearing on the accuracy of their news.  Go back and read about how those classifications are determined.  That is a very stupid, uniformed, and illogical argument to use when discussing the accuracy of their news programs. 

    Fox News says that people are voicing their opinion about the health care bill, and some of them are crazies.  Which is the same thing they said when Bush was president…that people were protesting and some of them are crazies.  (They actually use the word loons instead of crazies).  Next time, I suggest that when/if you watch Fox News, you listen to what is actually said, instead of listening to what someone else is saying about Fox News.

    I don’t care if there is name-calling are not.  Others will call be names and I will call them names back and we’ll have fun with the whole thing.  You brought up name calling as a problem, so if that’s the case, have a problem with it in all instances, not just from Fox News. 

    If a news network should refrain from calling names, then why is it acceptable for your liberal news network to call names, but its not acceptable for Fox News?  They both do it – get with the program.

    I don’t really know what your getting at in your discussion of “ambush journalism”.

    It sounds like we both agree that the liberal media and the conservative media have problems, but we disagree on whose problems are worse.  We won’t be able to solve that if you continue to reference wrong information about Fox News, and again, that is not my point, the socialism/facism opposite comment is my point.

  42. My facist tendencies argument rests on lying, for one thing, and the suppression of opposition, for another thing.  The administration should support dialogue from both sides to develop a bipartisan plan, rather than try to force a very partisan plan through.  Lying, when it involves witholding information and suppression of the opposition, is both stupid and a facist tendecy.

    They’re trying to get the bill passed, and they’ve been looking for bi-partisan support.  They’re not getting it because the opposition wants them to gut the program so that it doesn’t work as advertised.  You can argue whether that’s good or bad all you want, but it’s got nothing to do with “silencing the opposition”  Unless they’re going to not publish the text of the bill, I fail to see where they are covering anything up.

    If you’re going to argue that lying is exhibiting fascist tendencies, then that is worse than useless.  You’re basically saying that everyone who lies is exhibiting fascist tendencies.  Whether that’s true or not doesn’t matter.  It doesn’t do any good in this context.  It just sounds like a cheap way to work the word “fascist” into a political discussion.

    Whether Fox News is an entertainment network or a news network does not have any bearing on the accuracy of their news.  Go back and read about how those classifications are determined.  That is a very stupid, uniformed, and illogical argument to use when discussing the accuracy of their news programs.

    The fact that they are an entertainment channel seemed very important to them when they asked two of their reporters to write a story, then those reporters tried to sue them for stealing and covering up their story.  Being a news network in the legal sense carries some responsibility to the truth and some protection for it’s reporters (not enough as I see it, but some).  Fox News doesn’t think it can handle that responsibility.  The law suit was dismissed because since they weren’t a news network, they were not required to obey those standards.  Keep in mind that the court did not find that Fox News didn’t steal or cover up the story, just that it wasn’t wrong.  That makes it pretty clear what Fox News is out to do.

    Next time, I suggest that when/if you watch Fox News, you listen to what is actually said, instead of listening to what someone else is saying about Fox News.

    Wow, I was just about to ask you to do the same thing.

    If a news network should refrain from calling names, then why is it acceptable for your liberal news network to call names, but its not acceptable for Fox News?  They both do it – get with the program.

    Don’t give them to me.  I don’t want them.  It’s not acceptable for a bona-fide news network to name-call, but name calling is one thing.  Calling someone a traitor or a terrorist is another.  That’s like the difference between calling someone a petty thief without cause and calling them a rapist or pedophile without cause.  Both are uncool, but only one is sleazy.

    I don’t really know what your getting at in your discussion of “ambush journalism”.

    I’m not surprised.  “Ambush journalism” is a phrase coined to mean following people with a camera and a microphone asking them pointless questions but not waiting for a response (eg “Why did you lie about the >whatever< incident") before launching into another question. The object is not to get answers, but to make their disorientation at having a mike and camera shoved in their face look like being unable to answer the questions because they're guilty. Fox does it a lot. They're proud of it, although they don't call it "ambush journalism" when they do it. Only when others do it.

    It sounds like we both agree that the liberal media and the conservative media have problems, but we disagree on whose problems are worse.  We won’t be able to solve that if you continue to reference wrong information about Fox News, and again, that is not my point, the socialism/facism opposite comment is my point.

    I don’t make the distinction between liberal and conservative media.  I agree that the major networks… all of them… have a certain disconnect with the truth.  I think Fox News is at the head of the line with being “disconnected”  The other theory is that they know exactly what they’re doing.  That would be even worse.  As for it not being your point.  You brought it up.

  43. swordbane – they are not getting bipartisan support because no one but the “some” members of the democratic party are stupid enough to think that the plan will work.  It has a lot to do with silencing the opposition.  The white house issued a call for people to forward any emails that oppose the health care plan to them so that they could silence the opposition.

    Additionally, Barack Obama did not hold true to his promise to publish bills online before passing them, with the stimulus bill.  That is where the death panels come from, and that is certainly covering things up.

    Lying is a facist tendency, and the your failure to acknowledge that is what is worse then useless.  I didn’t say that everyone who lies is exhbiting facist tendencies.  You must remember that it wasn’t me who brought the word facist into this discussion.  It was Les.  He used the word innappropriately and I corrected him, and you all got pissed off because I am right and Les his not.  I don’t need a way to work facist in to the conversation, because even without facism, the Obama administration has enough problems. 

    I repeat, the fact that Fox News is an entertainment network has no bearing on the accuracy of their news. 

    If someone is a traitor or a terrorist, they should be called a traitor or a terrorist.  You have no right to comment on what is uncool and what is sleazy – because the slander that you and others have propogated on this blog is both.

    Thanks for the explanation on ambush journalism, but it isn’t relevant to our discussion.

    You definitely do make the distinction between liberal and conservative media – that is why you are calling out Fox News.  You think they are the furthest from the truth because you are out of touch with reality and don’t know what the truth is.

    And actually, I didn’t bring it any of this up. Les did!

    Please get a clue before making another thoughtless response!

  44. I don’t even have to argue with Jon at this point. He makes it clear to everyone he’s clueless all on his own. He’s parroting the same lies the Republican leaders have been spoon feeding the faithful. His only argument is to keep repeating “I’m right! I’m right” as if doing so makes it true. Must have taken debate lessons from George W. Bush.

    Swordsbane is right. I’m not the one who looks uneducated in this argument.

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