SEB Mailbag: Someone comes to “Dr.” Kent Hovind’s defense.

Got an email this morning from someone upset with one of the many entries I’ve written about “Dr.” Kent Hovind. I”m assuming, based on the content, that it was one of the entries about Hovind’s trial for tax evasion. Here’s the email with my reply:

From: kevin hitch
Subject: dr kent hovind

hovind did nothing wrong he stood up for his rights and the truth is there attacking him because he is a christian thats the bottom line but i see your a liberal so i know you love bog brother and want him to control your life so get in line and get your microchip

Wow, Kevin, as a defense of Hovind that was pretty bad, but at least it was mercifully short. Hovind broke the law, tax law to be particular, and he’s paying the price for not taking the opportunities to correct his misdeed when he was offered (the IRS would much rather you pay then go to jail, but Hovind insisted on not paying until it was clear he was going to jail). His “truth” is wrong on both evolution AND tax law and unfortunately for him one of those two things ended up putting his ass in jail.

It’s good to see you’re just full of prejudices as well. Yes, I’m a liberal but that doesn’t mean I love “bog brother” as you put it. If you took the time to read more of my site you’d see that I spend a good deal of time arguing against big brother government, but you’re so smart you don’t need pesky things like facts before you make up your mind, right?

Thanks for the early morning laugh at your expense.

Les

135 thoughts on “SEB Mailbag: Someone comes to “Dr.” Kent Hovind’s defense.

  1. leguru : Ironic that a pacifist philosophy has been adopted by the largest military force on the planet.

    They’re all a Buddha of one, with automatic weapons.

    Ever considered that angle?

    hmm … yup, rejected that 5th grade.

    <SMACK!>

  2. I usually don’t get involved in these discussions, and sit on the sides as others are more eloquent at stating arguments than I am. But we have:

    Either He was a liar or lunatic or Lord.

    Ah yes, it’s the Liar, Looney, or Lord argument. As Greta states, there are many other scenarios for Jesus, he could have been misquoted, misrepresented, misinterpreted, someone could have purposely misstated or misinterpreted what he said for their own political reasons, he might not even be real and just a creation by a religion to get people to waste their money and Sundays, he could of been a creation based off of other real life prophets, and the list goes on.

    Then Greta states the following:

    The essence of the argument is this: If you say my religion isn’t true, you’re insulting me. You’re calling the founder of my religion a loony or a liar. He’s the inspiration for my life, the foundation of my moral code, the core of my life’s meaning. Are you calling him a loony? Are you calling him a liar? So are you calling me crazy or deluded for following him? And what about all the other millions of people who believe that Jesus is lord—are you saying they’re all crazy or deluded? What a terrible thing to say! How can you say that?

    How true!

    You see what you’re doing here Nano Dude? You are dodging our questions and then expecting us to answer your. But worse, your questions are just bullshit emotional appeals.

    I am done with Nano Dude until he answers some questions or at least makes an attempt to understand evolution instead of just saying how he loves us but evolution and atheists are evil.

  3. What do all of you here think of Jesus Himself and His claims about Himself? Either He was a liar or lunatic or Lord.

    Yes, we all know about C.S. Lewis’ “trilemma”.  Trouble is, these are not the only possibilities:  for instance, Jesus might also have:

    – been misquoted
    – been speaking metaphorically
    – never existed

    …and any number of other grades of truth shading into storytelling.

    About that DrDino video:  why would anyone here want to watch it?  Don’t you get it?  There are educated people here, people who paid attention in high school, who actually know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics states.  DrDino only works on people who really want to believe that the Bible is true, and who have no idea how science works, and what real scientists say.

  4. First of all, Bog Brother, if you would, I would really like to know why you left Christianity, and when you say you were “one of us” what do you mean exactly? Please clarify.

    No.  If you want to know these things, do some work, I’ve posted the answers to these questions in other threads here, so you’ll need to do some legwork.  Otherwise, screw off.

  5. Nano- if you’re just going to lie, really what is the point?

    From his own writings we see that he abandoned Christianity if ever he believed it at all

    He was a Christian, though from a non-conformist background.  In fact he was an acolyte of Paley- the proponent of the ‘Watchmaker’ argument.  It was his trip on the Beagle, and the inconsistences between the Bible and what he observed that made him doubt. You are either a liar, or have been lied to.

    My son’s views are all his own. He’s looked at the OBSERVED FACTS, he’s looked at the bible, and though ‘these two don’t match, which is wrong?’  You obviously haven’t caught onto the fact that I wouldn’t put God into any model.

    The Second Law of Thermodynamics
    In a closed system, all things tend towards entropy

    or variation thereof.

    The 4 important words EVERY creationist leaves out are

    IN A CLOSED SYSTEM

    For order to arise from disorder enery must be put in. The Earth IS NOT a closed system.  The energy comes from the sun. The Solar System IS effectively a closed system, and eventually the Sun will die, and the Solar system will die with it.

    If the Cretinist version was right- All things tend towards entropy, then nothing would grow, no matter how much food they are, no engines would work, despite being fuelled.  The energy to create life on Earth came from the Sun. We can prove the existence of the Sun. I’ve not seen God hanging around recently.

    we have the original recorded words and the rest

    No you don’t, you have copies of an oral tradition. Show me the originals. Show me the dictation of Jesus, or a Jesus, one of the many wandering around the Middle East at the time.

    None of those horrible abuses can be defended as coming from the New Testament which Christians are to follow:

    Yeah one minute God is saying go and commit genocide, next he’s all love and stuff. Except for the Laws which command stoning etc- Jesus supported those

    I do not come to change one jot or tittle

    .What you mean is the OT is ALL TRUE, apart from the bits you disagree with.

    Once agian you have not given any facts. But at least you did make a statement or two- all completely wrong, but at least a ‘unfact’.

    He said if you die without Him as your Savior, you will go to Hell forever.

    You and 5 other religeons. Whose hell you gonna burn in- Sikhs, Hindus?

  6. Nanodude, you obviously need to get off a topic in which you are clearly over your head.  Since you like nanotechnology, and you like fiction (such as the Bible) you might enjoy a fictional story about nonotechnology.  Get the November/December ‘07 issue of MIT Technology Review and read Steve Fever about a future where nanobits of a dead researcher are hijacking the whole human race to resurrect him.  It’s a very creepy story, quite improbable, and quite entertaining.  And it will give you something to do besides annoying the hell out of us for a while.

  7. I’d also recommend a novel I read called (I believe) “Bloom”.  I don’t recall the author, but it was about a nanobot swarm that turned the earth into a gray goo, and the efforts by the survivors who had taken refuge inside Saturn’s moon Titan to find out what had happened and possibly reclaim the earth.  Good luck finding a copy though, it appears it’s out of print, though I found it to be an enjoyable read myself.

  8. Actually all the Christians charities in the world can’t hold a candle to the secular governments that are essentially the sorts of community leaders that churches only wish they were.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    It’s a pretty powerful statement of secularity. The Red Cross is nice and all that, but it simply doesn’t hold a candle to the trillions of dollars in aid the secular (no matter what percentage of its constituents might be) government of the US hands out every few years (for reasons that often have very little to do with charity or morality, despite their overall effect.) That’s not even going into the enormous percentage of our overall budget that’s spent on the community here at home in the form of building infrastructure, protecting people’s civil rights by establishing completely secular courts, and mailing checks to all of the elderly people that Nano’s churches prey upon to collect their pound of silver to erect useless buildings that mostly stand empty all week long.

  9. and mailing checks to all of the elderly people that Nano’s churches prey upon to collect their pound of silver to erect useless buildings that mostly stand empty all week long.

    Aw c’mon now ya’ll.  Don’t be like that!  God needs those empty buildings to live in!  Where else is the Holy Ghost gonna go on a Tuesday between the hours of midnight and 6 pm before the old ladies show up for Bingo?

  10. You said: “Yes, we all know about C.S. Lewis’ “trilemma”.  Trouble is, these are not the only possibilities:  for instance, Jesus might also have:

    – been misquoted
    – been speaking metaphorically
    – never existed “

    Nope, Nope, and Nope. All of these routes, these attempts, are closed off. That is the fundamental flaw with Greta the atheist’s responses. Go read The Case for the Real Jesus” by Lee Strobel, his latest book. He answers this stuff. The fact is, we have the original recorded words of Jesus. He was speaking plainly. Literally. Directly. And He existed. No honest historian would even imagine Him not existing. The worst they say is He was wrong.

    Anyhow, all of this mishmash is going to come to an end one day, when He returns, and then it will be too late to make your choice, to choose which side you’re on. It doesn’t make any sense to say “I choose to lay down!” when you can’t stand up! What then everyone who denies Jesus as your Savior, here?

    I read “Bloom” by Will McCarthy. Very well-written storyline. I disagree with his assumption that nanomechanisms can evolve. Accidents of that sort are not likely. Intentionally destructive programmable nano weapons are definitely a problem.

    However, I believe in freedom in research and scientific development. Let the engineers build. Invent.

    You said: “t’s a pretty powerful statement of secularity. The Red Cross is nice and all that, but it simply doesn’t hold a candle to the trillions of dollars in aid the secular (no matter what percentage of its constituents might be) government of the US hands out every few years (for reasons that often have very little to do with charity or morality, despite their overall effect.)”

    The Christian charities help out far more people than any secular one. Besides, the Christian charities make eternal impacts for people’s souls.
    “He was a Christian, though from a non-conformist background.  In fact he was an acolyte of Paley- the proponent of the ‘Watchmaker’ argument.  It was his trip on the Beagle, and the inconsistences between the Bible and what he observed that made him doubt. You are either a liar, or have been lied to.”

    Whatever Darwin was, he was not a Christian. He made that clear.

    I hope I’m wrong. I hope he truly believed at one p oint in his life, and if he did, then yes he would make it into heaven. Nonetheless, as far as we know, he was an enemy of the Gospel.

    I bet the following really freaks you guys out, doesn’t it?

    Most people think of Ghandi as this wonderful great man, and sure, he did do some good works and had some good causes. And while he was mistreated by some nominal Christians who should have loved him instead, sadly, in his recorded texts, he makes it clear he would not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior.

    Meanwhile, certain men such as David Berkowitz (Son of Sam Killer), Jeffrey Dahmer (cannibal murderer), and some others supposedly believed in Jesus Christ as their Savior, and that means they go to Heaven.

    You’re probably thinking “What a twisted view this fundie has! How can he say a good man like Ghandi would go to Hell while those guys would go to Heaven?” Because we are ALL evil, wicked, from birth. We are ALL spiritually dead, seperated from God, and have a bent towards sin and rebellion.

    ALL have fallen short of the glory of God! ALL like sheep have gone astray!

    The Standard is God Himself, Jesus Christ. There are only two ways to Heaven: If you want to try to get there by your works, you better be 100% perfect, and apart from Jesus I have not yet met such a person or heard of them. The real way, ofcourse, is to accept His free gift of eternal life by faith alone in Christ alone, then you are credited with His very own perfection and you are bonded to Him forever.

    Love you because of Him

  11. The fact is, we have the original recorded words of Jesus.

    Since I assume you do not, in fact, mean a “recording” of Jesus’ words than we have what you believe are the transcribed words of Jesus.  The veracity of which is attested by the volume in which they are contained.

    I can easily think of a dozen other possibilities besides those in Lewis’ ‘Trilemma’ and saying “nope” is not an argument, it is a claim. 

    I bet the following really freaks you out: many of us have in fact read the bible, CS Lewis, Hal Lindsey, and maybe even some Christian philosophers you have not heard of.  In the end, it didn’t carry the day.

    You’re not making any progress here – why not go to the hill region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and preach the gospel to them?  I’m sure they’re hungry for the gawssspell there.

  12. I bet the following really freaks you guys out, doesn’t it?

    No.

    The Standard is God Himself, Jesus Christ. There are only two ways to Heaven: If you want to try to get there by your works, you better be 100% perfect, and apart from Jesus I have not yet met such a person or heard of them. The real way, ofcourse, is to accept His free gift of eternal life by faith alone in Christ alone, then you are credited with His very own perfection and you are bonded to Him forever.

    Prove it.

    Love you because of Him

    You d’ont even know us. Your pseudo-love is as much of a delusion as your faith.

    I wonder if he’ll go away if we all blaspheme the holy spook thus placing ourselves irrevocably and permanently beyond salvation?

  13. “The best thing I ever did in the modern age was to make these materialists think I don’t exist!”—Satan.

    No natural process which resulted in information forming automatically in matter has ever been observed. Neither is this possible in the most spectacular or costly experiments.

    No transition from one basic kind to another has ever been observed.

    The frequently quoted transitional forms and “missing links” have never been found. All fossils represent complete, perfect organisms.

    Face it. You cannot deliver the goods. Your claims are bankrupt.

    From Dictionary.Com:

    ”  a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects”

    “something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:”

    “A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.”

    These definitions describe you atheists perfectly. Surprise. You are religionists.

    You have the religion of humanism and atheism.

    Jesus is returning soon. Don’t wait until the world is dissolving all around you before you believe in Him.

    How do you determine what is right and what is wrong? If you don’t believe in a universal standard of right and wrong, who are you to tell someone what is right and what is wrong? Who are you to accuse God of being evil if you don’t even believe in God or a universal standard of what is right and wrong, good and evil.

    The very fact that you are raising a stink about what is right or wrong, good or evil, is your proving God exists! The very act of thinking, is proof God exists.

    Atheists who spend time arguing that God does not exist….its like someone sitting on a branch at the end of a tree and declaring “Trees don’t exist! They are a crutch for weak-minded people!”

    You derive your very ability to think from God! HE gave it to you!

  14. I bet the following really freaks you guys out, doesn’t it?

    It would indeed freak me out, if it were true.  But it’s not, so it doesn’t freak me out, any more than it freaks me out when Elmer Fudd shoots Bugs Bunny for the umpteenth time.

    No natural process which resulted in information forming automatically in matter has ever been observed. Neither is this possible in the most spectacular or costly experiments.

    I guess you really weren’t paying attention in school, were you, Nano Dude?  I don’t know about the rest of you, but we did this experiment in grade school,  and it wasn’t costly at all.  I thought it was pretty spectacular, though.

    Boil a pot of water.  Mix in as much sugar as will dissolve.  Hang a string in the pot and let cool.  Over a period of several days, the sugar in the supersaturated solution will crystallize out, and you’ll have a string of rock candy.  What has happened here? A natural process which resulted in information forming automatically in matter has been observed.  A crystal has more information than the solution from which it came, so information formed.  It proceeded automatically.  And if you were paying attention, it was observed.  Information forms all the time, in open systems.  All it takes is energy, in this case in the form of heat.

    The frequently quoted transitional forms and “missing links” have never been found. All fossils represent complete, perfect organisms.

    This is confirmation, as if we needed any, that you don’t know your ass from your elbow about evolution.  What would constitute a “missing link” for you?  Something with a human top and a chimp bottom?  If you want to debate evolution, you have to at least have a basic understanding of what evolution means, which you don’t.  If you’re serious about convincing us, you will have to do some research.  I’ve done quite a lot on the Bible, as have most of us here: I’ve read the whole thing a couple of times through, and a lot of secondary literature as well.  So it’s time to get your butt in gear: since you mention transitional forms, you could start here.

    Let us know what you think after you bone up a bit.  If you don’t, and merely continue spouting your ignorance, you will continue to annoy us, and after a while you will go off in a huff when we stop paying attention.  So it’s up to you.

  15. Julian –  Even though I’ve done it before here, it’s worth a try.  I’ll start.

    The Goddamn, Virgin Mary Fucking, Holy Spirit is a a pile of pig shit that has been passed through the rancid, rotting, infected intestine of a 3 day dead corpse of a Jewish Carpenter/Male Prostitute who claimed to have been descended from a cosmic megalomaniacal psychopathic monster for the express written intent of making us all mind slaves to his monstrous father. 

    Ramen.

  16. I’d like to do it too, but after yours mine is going to sound too tame.

    Wish I was born creative instead of good-looking…..Damn you Holy Spirit you lying deceiving son of Satan.

  17. I’m afraid mine won’t be as creative, but here goes: There is no god, and by extension, no holy spirit (or any other kind).

    Nanodude, we’ve been pretty patient but you are getting even more annoying than I predicted you would be.  This is the point where people start ignoring you.  I’ll go first.

  18. Don’t run him off yet DOF! I’m still trying to figure out what bible he’s been reading.  cheese

    Really ND, it’s been fun lurking and watching you try to ‘convert the heathens’ but it’s getting old. I was going to leave you with a homework assignment but thought better of it, you’d never do it anyway. I would like to thank you for being an interesting diversion from my normal fundie diet. It’s sad that I have to come here to get preached at without the preacher resorting to vulgarities or threats of a good burning-at-the-stake!  LOL

  19. I would like to thank you for being an interesting diversion from my normal fundie diet.

    You find him significantly different from the regular fundies we get here? Sure he doesn’t use vulgarities but in his own way he’s gloating over the fact that he thinks that his god is going to fuck us.

    It’s sad that I have to come here to get preached at without the preacher resorting to vulgarities or threats of a good burning-at-the-stake! 

    Instead he’s resorting to threats of a good burning-in-hell-for-all-eternity.
    I admire the patience of you guys who tried reasoning with him. Personally I think it’s like trying to teach Quantum Mechanics to a goat.

  20. You find him significantly different from the regular fundies we get here?

    No, I find him different from the fundies I get face-to-face.

    Instead he’s resorting to threats of a good burning-in-hell-for-all-eternity.

    Straight from the play-book. Nice to know in this crazy world that some things can be relied upon.  LOL

  21. I admire the patience of you guys who tried reasoning with him. Personally I think it’s like trying to teach Quantum Mechanics to a goat.

    I was waiting for a reason to come back and comment. LOL! My thoughts exactly.

  22. No, I find him different from the fundies I get face-to-face.

    My mistake. I misunderstood what you said as I’ve never encountered a fundie offline.

  23. Julian, you’re not missing much. Just imagine NanoDude as kinda southern twangy and making such comments as ‘You godless heretic’ or ‘You poor deluded heathen’. Add in some choice non-blasphemous vulgarities as I have fun at the expense of the whole group and viola’!

    Of course I’m dealing with Southern and Missionary Baptists so the mileage you get from other fundies may vary.

  24. Double dipping here but Julian and BB, there’s no need to blaspheme the holy spook. 1 John 2:22 says it all:

    Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    See? we’re all the anti-christ and therefore already condemned. And I think we all know what happens to the anti-christ, right?

  25. Personally I think it’s like trying to teach Quantum Mechanics to a goat.

    Well they are all Newtonians to a man, err goat.

    While talking about animal intelligence, any particular reason that Christians compare themselves to sheep…

    It’s pointless arguing with NanaDud, because he can’t possibly exist.  If he existed he would be able to show us all his transitional ancestors between Noah and himself- every mother and father.  He can’t ergo he does not have a full set, ergo he can not exist.

    Lets face it a real person wouldn’t be so fucking thick to think that because someone became an ‘agnostic’ after seeing all sorts of stuff that contradicted the bible, and losing his daughter to an early death, he could never have been a Christian.

    A real person would understand that science isn’t a religeon because it doesn’t need faith. They would understand that when evidedence shows a scientific belief to be true, thousands of fucking arseholes don’t go to war because they liked the other model.

    The best bit? Even if NDud is 100% corerct and we all go to hell, HE’S GOING TO BE THERE TOO. Jesus SPECIFICALLY said he wasn’t changing any laws, so unless he is a strict Jew, HE’S GONNA FRY.

    Dud it is who you “can not deliver the goods”.  You have not given one piece of evidence that your religeon is correct.  I note that you realise when you look the fucking prat you are, as when ever one of us tells you how science actually works you shut up and stop quoting the arseholes you cocksuck. All of a sudden you stop banging on about the 2nd law of TD. Gosh thats after I explained it.

    The very act of thinking, is proof God exists.

    How? How the fuck does this prove God. The fact you type proves Shiva exists. You couldn’t type with out Shiva guiding your hands. That makes about as much sense you prat.

    If indeed thought proves God, then your lack of it makes you a deicidal maniac.

    Come on where is this original bible you refered to. Where are the words of Mathhew, Mark, Luke and John in theior own handwriting?  If every thing happened exactly as it said in the bible then 1) Why is God so fucking useless- he completely cocked up many of his designs- the human eye, the panda, mammalian sperm spring to mind.

    2) How did Kangaroos get to Australia after the flood? Quote the specific passages that back that one up.

  26. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    See? we’re all the anti-christ and therefore already condemned. And I think we all know what happens to the anti-christ, right?

    Well, there isn’t much in the Bible really, except for that head wound part, and the crunchy bits at the end where he snuffs it.  I imagine though he gets seriously laid a lot, and pretty much has his choice of food and drink and all that other good hedonistic stuff.  Sounds like fun, where do I get my Mark of the Beast?

  27. However, a fish that had numerous characteristics of an amphibian (flat head, webbed feet instead of fins) but still retained other fish like characteristics (scaly skin, gills) WOULD count. Just such an animal has been found, along with many others, including the much maligned archeoperyx (dinosaur/bird transitional species). 

    Ah what the fuck is the point anyway, those IDiots (NuhuhDude and Konsty, I am looking at you…) have cotton in their ears and keep rocking back and forth chanting “I believe in invisible sky daddy, I believe in invisible sky daddy, I believe…” you get the point.  No amount of evidence will sway them, they don’t live in a reality based reality.

  28. But its still a fish, it’s not a different ‘kind’…

    They see sheep, fish, bird etc.  They don’t get lungfish. They ignore how fossils work- i.e. fucking hard to make, they ignore how good DNA is. They never come up with one fact.  IO am really loosing my temper here with these dicks. I knew I would eventually, I never actually Dud to say- ‘hold that thought- I’ll get back to you’ just the normal string of crap, but I still tried to be polite. I really must give up on IDiots ant Cretanists, I just can’t help getting drawn in. I still believe the bleedin’ obvious will be seen.  At least we didn’t get “but its only a theory”

  29. Nano hasn’t said anything we’ve not heard plenty of times before here at SEB but I have to admit that this bit still gets to me…

    Love you because of Him

    He thinks he’s expressing a sincere emotion, but what that really tells me is that Nano is paying lip service to the concept of love for no reason other than he thinks it helps him to curry favor with his non-existent god. He doesn’t love us because we’re particularly lovable or because he truly and deeply feels an emotional connection, but because he believes his god says that’s what good sycophants do.

    In short, it’s a glaring example of all that is wrong with his philosophy. He doesn’t do it because it’s the right thing to do or a good thing to do, but because he thinks a god wants him to do it and he fears what will happen to him if he doesn’t abide.

  30. He doesn’t do it because… but because…

    I’m not brave enough to question his sincerity (which could be another word for “level of delusion” anyway) but man, he’s a bit shaky on the concept of taking a hint.

  31. One thing I thought of over the night that struck me as interesting was the realization that you guys started blaspheming in an attempt to drive off an evil (or at least troublesome) spirit. I guess even us atheists can resort to a kind of prayer of a sort at times.

    Trouble is that particular prayer tends to only work on Catholics. Most protestant believers don’t accept the idea of an unpardonable sin. Still it’ll be interesting to see whether or not it works.

  32. It’s in their Big Book of Magic Spells: how can they not believe it? I always thought that protestant fundies were more into the biblical inerrancy thing than catholics.

    Never thought I would be on this end of an exorcism though.

  33. But Dud said that Catholics weren’t Christians, it was stolen from [can’t see it on this page]. Only Protestants are good Christians.  WTF happened to those bits that the Prods inherited from the Catholics I don’t know.

    I’ve just looked at my last post- you can see how pissed I was in the quality of the English!

  34. Man, I’m glad I got to this thread early enough that I can get a significant crack in at this joker (not that it hasn’t been fun watching you all hand him his ass several times).

  35. Hello again everyone. I read your posts. Again, I see no clear refutations of my arguments, such as the lack of information being generated from nothing. Your crystal analogy fails in two major areas. One, all crystals prove is order, not complexity. Furthermore, where did the basic rules by which how chemical bonding and what we call “self assembly” come from in the first place? Every effect has a cause. Every design has a designer. Ever law has a lawmaker. Things don’t just happen. Why does carbon only have those four bonds? Why do those crystals assemble the way they do according to rules. You have to go deeper and you fail there.

    Regarding the issue of entropy and closed vs open systems. Alright. Let’s play your game. So we have this construction site loaded with steel I beams, concrete blocks, cement, the works, and we have a nice bright shiny sun pouring down many many watts of power onto the site. So, does the building get erected? No. But wait! It is an open system, is it not? Receiving energy and able to release waste heat? You need INFORMATION and the MECHANISM to ASSEMBLE those materials into the desired building structure/pattern. Don’t you get it?
    Now, like Richard Dawkins, you will probably say “But wait! Wait! Atoms and molecules and Amino Acids are not concrete blocks and steel I beams! They assemble according to different rules!” Sorry guys. Same stuff applies. Even WITH your billions of years (sheesh even with TRILLIONS of years!) the probabilities against inorganic molecules assembling into organic chemicals and amino acid molecules and then into DNA, proteins, and the rest, is so high as to be acceptably called IMPOSSIBLE.

    How do you deal with the Chicken and the Egg problem? DNA requires Proteins, proteins require DNA: Which came first? Are you going to leap to the favorite old “RNA came first!” or “Clay systems that catalyzed RNA came first” or one of the other ridiculous, nonsensical approaches? Get with it. This stuff was gone before it was even conceived. Its a dead-end route of RELIGIOUS thinking. And don’t give me that “We arent religious! We’re scientific” stuff. You are VERY religious. Look at your replies and the way you go about things. You are RELIGIOUS SECULAR HUMANISTS!

    Do I hate you? No! Do I love you? Yes! Why would I still come here if I didn’t care?

    Where did human language come from? Where did altruism come from? Your claims at “evolutionary” answers all fall short.

    Jesus is Lord whether you like it or not.
    In the end, there can be only one, and His Name is Jesus Christ. Evilution failed before it took off.  Creation Science truth is what will and has triumphed.

    Last Hussar said: “But Dud said that Catholics weren’t Christians, it was stolen from [can’t see it on this page]. Only Protestants are good Christians.  WTF happened to those bits that the Prods inherited from the Catholics I don’t know.”

    If you examine the history and the Bible you find out I am right on this matter: The Roman Catholic System is rife with ancient Babylonian paganism. Everything from their candle lighting and robes to their confessionals and the Eucharist, which is just a reinventation of the ancient Babylonian and later Egyptian transsubstantiation of the “sun god”. The Bible makes it clear, eternal salvation is by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE. The RCC teaches a works salvation, like every other religious system on the planet. At the same time, I give them credit for defending the rights of the unborn (Abortion is Baby Slaughter!), the Trinity, and more, and I love them.

    If you’re hungry for bread, you know bread exists. If youre thirsty for water, you know water exists. If you long for a relationship with God you know God is real. That alone proves the existence of God. Every human people group on the planet, every tribe, has some form of religion or spirituality. How do you answer that one atheists?

    Les said: “One thing I thought of over the night that struck me as interesting was the realization that you guys started blaspheming in an attempt to drive off an evil (or at least troublesome) spirit. I guess even us atheists can resort to a kind of prayer of a sort at times.

    Trouble is that particular prayer tends to only work on Catholics. Most protestant believers don’t accept the idea of an unpardonable sin. Still it’ll be interesting to see whether or not it works.”

    Number one, this just goes to show sadly how hateful you are towards YAHWEH. Second of all, the only “Unforgivable Sin” is the one Jesus spoke of:  And it means a person dying having rejected Christ never having believed in Him as their only Eternal Savior. If you have believed in Him for real, even once in your life, and then end up as an atheist apostate and die in that state, I am convinced you will make Heaven, though you will be stripped of all possible rewards and rulership position in God’s kingdom. ALL saved people (those who have BELIEVED IN CHRIST JESUS as their only Eternal Savior) make heaven 100 percent. But, only OVERCOMERS (those who have consistently sacrificed for Him in their lives and have stayed close and true to Him) will CO REIGN with Him as promised in the Scriptures.
    Les you said: “n short, it’s a glaring example of all that is wrong with his philosophy. He doesn’t do it because it’s the right thing to do or a good thing to do, but because he thinks a god wants him to do it and he fears what will happen to him if he doesn’t abide.”

    No, Les, that is not true. I honestly love you sincerely as fellow humans. true, I do not know you personally as a friend. I am sure there are areas unrelated to this discussion where you and I could agree and even be friends and have good discussions on. We are after all one blood after Adam. But spiritually we are of a different family until or unless you believe on the Lord Jesus as your Savior, if you have not already. Furtheremore, my failure to abide does not effect my eternal salvation, it would effect my level of rewards and closeness with Christ, however. Even so, I am here because I care about you and for you.

    “However, a fish that had numerous characteristics of an amphibian (flat head, webbed feet instead of fins) but still retained other fish like characteristics (scaly skin, gills) WOULD count. Just such an animal has been found, along with many others, including the much maligned archeoperyx (dinosaur/bird transitional species). “

    No. All that goes to show is the amazing intricacy of God’s design. The feathered dinosaur like bird is not a transitional. It is its own whole creature.

    As far as the “All these guys do is say I believe I believe in you invisible sky daddy” I can say the same about you: All you do is say “I dont believe I dont believe I dont believe” while He is there and here and everywhere and you deny His existence.

    “Come on where is this original bible you refered to. Where are the words of Mathhew, Mark, Luke and John in theior own handwriting?”

    We have thousands of the copies of the originals. Same thing. And there are many factors in the text that prove it was not made up. For one thing, the fact that each is clearly from a different man’s perspective shows they did NOT sit at a table and conspire to all write the same thing. Secondly, notice who the first recorded witnesses to see Jesus after the Resurrection were: WOMEN. In first century culture there that was unthinkable. Women were not considered reliable witnesses at all, and yet these guys go AGAINST the grain of their culture and show that Jesus showed Himself first to the women.  Also, if it was fake like you say, why record personal failures, sins, and weaknesses? Why does the Scripture include the horrible failures of King David, when the pagan kings of the time were always inflating their egos and making themselves look spotless, such as Egyptian pharohs having scribes say they defeated whole armies..by themselves? Dont you agree that inclusion of personal sins and failures helps to support the validity of it and show very honest humility?
    “How did Kangaroos get to Australia after the flood? Quote the specific passages that back that one up”

    This has been answered by people such as Ken Ham on Answers in Genesis.com Has to do with continental splits and so on and so forth.

    Hey guys read this: “Sir Arthur Keith was a British anthropologist, an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-Nazi, but he drew this chilling conclusion: ‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’

    – Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947.”

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/how-did-animals-spread
    Read there about kangaroos and Australia and the Flood
    and http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/migration.asp?srcFrom=aignews
    In response to this:

    “he best bit? Even if NDud is 100% corerct and we all go to hell, HE’S GOING TO BE THERE TOO. Jesus SPECIFICALLY said he wasn’t changing any laws, so unless he is a strict Jew, HE’S GONNA FRY.”

    Jesus did not change God’s eternal moral standard, what we call the Ten Commandments. Everyone who has ever been saved has been saved by grace alone.  What changed were the NATIONAL THEOCRATIC rulings, such as stoning hardened rebellious children and adulterers to death, and not eating unclean animals, etc.  We now live in the “Dispensational of Grace” also known as the Church Age. We are free to eat whatever food we want, and, Christians are NOT to bring physical judgements against people for these things. We are to have seperation of church and state (NOT God and state which many of you want), and we warn people and leave the judgement to God.

    I also happen to be Jewish

  36. Hey guys read this: “Sir Arthur Keith was a British anthropologist, an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-Nazi, but he drew this chilling conclusion: ‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.

    If you’ve done any “research” other than quote-mine, you either missed or ignored the fact that Hitler had Darwin’s books burned. So either you’re ignorant or deliberately quote-mining.  Not that tell-tale phrases like “atheistic evolutionist” don’t tip us off to your bias—and also the fact that you can’t separate theology from science any better than any other troll whose identical cut-and-paste “arguments” have been smacked down here many times.

    Evolution makes no claims as to the origin of life itself.  It explains how life changes.  Because that’s what the science supports.  In the same way that it doesn’t make any claims about what was there before the Big Bang.  Scientific discipline requires that you only make claims you (or anyone using your methods under identical conditions) can back with cold, hard data.  Trying to argue that the things that science can’t explain is “proof” of God’s creation is non-logic.  That’s like saying that the contradictions between the two creation myths in Genesis (where the order of what was created on which day is jiggled around) disproves the entire Bible and proves that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Creator of the Universe, praise be to his Noodliness!

    What you’ve been buying from Ken Ham and Kent Hovind ain’t science, pal.  They’re selling you wishful thinking with a lot of buzzwords and “reasoning” that would have you thrown out of a logic class in ten minutes.  I hope for your sake that you haven’t spent too much money on their books, museums, etc.  Because if you did, they’re laughing all the way to the bank, mark.  Who needs the drudgery of graduate school, back-breaking research, disciplined analysis, writing peer-reviewed articles when you can get a bunch of credulous hayseeds who wouldn’t know the difference between X-rays and the X-Files?  (Btw:  That would be you.)

    More to the point, if somehow creationists were able to debunk 150 years of biological research (as well as the geological and astronomical data that corroborates billion year evolutionary processes), it still wouldn’t “prove” that the Universe was created in six days six thousand years ago.  The data just isn’t there.  And if you didn’t weren’t threatened by anything that contradicts your image of yourself as the center of the Universe, you’d understand that.  If both the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury don’t see any conflict between evolution and religion, then WTF is your problem?

    You and your kind are the ones who have set up the false dichotomies where science must be the antithesis of religion, non-believers must be out to get you and all that.  And we won’t even start on all the other things that you claim that science “really” says because you obviously haven’t can’t open your eyes to see what’s in front of your face, much less crack open a textbook. 

    You can claim that you come here out of love, but it’s clearly insecurity.  You can’t bear the idea that anyone might not share your opinions (and they are opinions, not quantifiable scientific theories, much less hard facts).  Just like every other troll.  It’s childish, really.  Rather too much like the attention-getting antics of the nephews I’ll have to put up with in less than a week.

  37. NanoDude –

    Oh yeah?!  Well, my dad can beat up your dad!  And this one time, my dad threw a car!  Lots of people saw it! It was a 1957 Plymouth station wagon, and it was full of horse manure at the time!  He threw the whole thing with his foot!  Right over Lake Ontario and he hit Toronto!  Lots of people saw it.  You can’t disprove it, I even have a drawing if it, but I can’t find it.  I’ll post it later once I find and scan it.  It was made by my friend Eric when we were kids!

    And then this one time, my dad said he could wrastle a grizzly bear.  And you know what Dude?  HE DID!  In fact, he wrastled three at once, and then killed them with his foot!  Then we ate bear steaks for a week!  With his FOOT!

    Oh yeah, and before I forget.  Fuck the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary gives head to Zombie Jesus in Hell while Big Daddy Jehovah gets it all on tape and sells the videos on the internet for $1.99.

  38. Alright. Let’s play your game. So we have this construction site loaded with steel I beams, concrete blocks, cement, the works, and we have a nice bright shiny sun pouring down many many watts of power onto the site. So, does the building get erected? No. But wait! It is an open system, is it not? Receiving energy and able to release waste heat? You need INFORMATION and the MECHANISM to ASSEMBLE those materials into the desired building structure/pattern. Don’t you get it?

    Now I wish I’d taken my friends up on that bet, the one where I said you’d try some variation of the “tornado through the junk yard” argument. Yes, I get it. You don’t know the difference between Evolution and Engineering. Apples and rocks, literally!

    Why would I still come here if I didn’t care?

    Re-read cubiclegrrl’s post for the answer.

    “However, a fish that had numerous characteristics of an amphibian (flat head, webbed feet instead of fins) but still retained other fish like characteristics (scaly skin, gills) WOULD count. Just such an animal has been found, along with many others, including the much maligned archeoperyx (dinosaur/bird transitional species). “

    No. All that goes to show is the amazing intricacy of God’s design. The feathered dinosaur like bird is not a transitional. It is its own whole creature.

    Translation: The creation was still going on with god making stuff, for whatever reason he made a feathered dino which has features of both birds and dinosaurs because he thought it would be a funny joke. The fossils were put there by the great flood because we *all* know that a rainfall of 9.2 meters per hour causes geologic stratification and not mixing. (Yes, 9.2 meters. It’s basic spherical trig for the volume and basic math for the rest.)

    “Come on where is this original bible you refered to. Where are the words of Mathhew, Mark, Luke and John in theior own handwriting?”

    We have thousands of the copies of the originals. Same thing.

    Sorry, originals and copies are different. The question has yet to be answered.

    And BB, Zombie Jesus deserves his own post. Sometime I have to get around to typing up my co-workers reasoning as to why I should be a christian, it deals with my love of zombies and the reanimated Jesus thing.

  39. Again, I see no clear refutations of my arguments, such as the lack of information being generated from nothing.

    You’ve made no arguments only claims.

    As for the rest of your post, tl;dr dude keep it short especially when you’re spouting garbage we’ve heard often before.

    You can claim that you come here out of love, but it’s clearly insecurity.  You can’t bear the idea that anyone might not share your opinions (and they are opinions, not quantifiable scientific theories, much less hard facts).  Just like every other troll.  It’s childish, really.

    That’s it right there. You’re simply showing how weak your faith is.

    And what Bog Brother said.

    ETA: I just noticed he’s actually assigning us our roles and ranks in heaven.

  40. Nano Dude- did you check out my link?  I thought not.  Otherwise you wouldn’t be repeating nonsense like this:

    The feathered dinosaur like bird is not a transitional. It is its own whole creature.

    What, pray tell, is this “transitional” of yours that is not its own whole creature?  Is this something out of the Bible I don’t remember?  I was joking earlier, but now I see you must really think that a “transitional” creature would have to be something that’s not “its own whole creature”, but perhaps something like out of those children’s books with pictures on slit pages, where you can put a hippo head on an alligator body.  No, my friend, evolution deals only with whole creatures capable of reproducing themselves.  But of course you would know this if you had been paying attention in high school at the latest.

    Some of the questions you are asking, for instance about the origin of natural laws, abiogenesis, and human language, are of course genuinely interesting and difficult questions.  But instead of seeking out facts and patterns to try to answer them, you simply suspend logic and invoke magic, by saying Goddidit.

    That may be enough of an answer for you, but for people who are in love with the beauty and wonder of the Universe, it’s a cheap copout.  It’s like seeing a rainbow and asking why it’s there, and after hearing the explanation about reflection from water droplets that split the light into its constituent colors, you go ahead and insist that leprechauns must have made it.

  41. I just noticed he’s actually assigning us our roles and ranks in heaven.

    Yeah, I saw that.  I once “truly” believed in Jebus and all that crap he spouted off, so I guess I’ll end up as NanoDudes’ indentured servant for all eternity in his little fantasy. 

    Wow, I think if I died and found myself a slave in “paradise” (cause what else would you really be if some have everything, including the entitlement to rule over those others who have nothing, and you happen to be a “have-not”?  How mundane and droll this heaven is…so much like earth.) I would do everything in my power to overthrow the ruling regime and institute cosmic socialism.  Probably end up being exiled to hell.  Oh well, I hear all the really cool kids end up in hell anyway.

  42. The flying spagetti monster made the whole kit and kaboodle last week.

    We have thousands of the copies of the originals

    Oh, no original then? How do we know these copies are accurate?

    Stop telling us you love us, because you don’t. You’ve already admitted that you do it because Jesus tells you so. So you don’t love us. Love can not be commanded, no more than loathing or hate.  You couldn’t pick some one at random who you’d never met before and just start hating them.

    This has been answered by people such as Ken Ham on Answers in Genesis.com Has to do with continental splits and so on and so forth.

    So the convicted criminal, who broke the laws of his country in direct contravention of Jesus precise words, has suddenly started borrowing from real geology- Ice age lowering the sea and creating land bridges- despite the fact he will happily scoff at real geology when it doesn’t fit his particular delusions.  Pity none of this actually gets mentioned in the bible, no mention of ice ages, seas lowering- I mean the seal loweredand nobody thinks to mention it- no mention of kangaroos, penguins, llamas, pandas, Giant tortoises. Not one mention of any of these strange animals.  They all went to where they were supposed to, none stayed behind, and their offspring didn’t stay and spread out. Oh no, the roos crossed hundreds of miles of jungle to get from one desert to another.

    What changed were the NATIONAL THEOCRATIC rulings, such as stoning hardened rebellious children and adulterers to death, and not eating unclean animals, etc

    Where does Jesus say this. I keep being told it’s in there, but never actually been given chapter and verse.  How does this stack up against Jesus saying the laws (handed down by God) are immutable and fixed, and will last longer than the Earth.

    Once again you prove your complete inemptitude. Athieism isn’t a religeon. Our views are respond to evidence. When scientist come up with something that shows current hypotheisis to be true, once that has been shown to be accurately reasoned and tested, the science is updated. It’s not a religeon- it doesn’t rely on blind faith. It relies on evidence.

    I also happen to be Jewish

    Ah that most idiotic of religeous positions- the Jewish Christian. You’ve already stated that it’s okay to break God’s laws as laid out by him to his prophets.

    The Pope says you’re wrong. He is chosen by God, and anything you say is wrong. You say the same about him.  The Sikhs say you’re both wrong. With out resorting to the bible can you show Sihkism is wrong? The only thing that says the Bible is 100% correct is the bible.

    You sir, are an deluded fool, who has not offered one piece of evidence for his own brand of idiocy, yet rejects science out of hand, because it must be wrong because it doesn’t match your myths.

  43. What’s the funniest thing here is how these threads start to drift way off base once a whacko like NanoDud show up and start making comments.  I was re-reading the comments, and it was sticking pretty much to light banter about the nut that sent Les the email, (hell, I had totally forgot this was the thread I got “Bog Brother” from – Thanks a bunch Kevin). However, on the first page, NuhuhDude starts in about how he thinks it’s ironic that Hovind is blah blah blah.  He throws in a bunch of other stuff to support his wacky views, and of course, there is that not so subtle condescension that we have all come to love. However, after his comment, the thread seems to have taken on a life of it’s own, and we all forgot about Dr. Dino.  It kinda went that way on the older Hovind thread that Konstantin was in on too. 

    OK, guess I don’t really have a point other than to point out that fundies seem to cause thread drift I guess.

    Oh yeah, and I was trying to create a blasphemous limerick (can’t seem to find any on the internets), maybe somebody can help me finish this up:

    Some say there’s a fella named Jesus
    We do ill, and he supposedly sees us
    While we commit every possible wrong
    He likes to watch, and pull on his dong

    I just need a finishing line that rhymes with Jesus I guess.  Anyone?

  44. Hovind’s probably undergoing his own sort of conversion in prison by now, peddling his ass for sweets and cigarettes.

    My favorite is this though:

    I am sure there are areas unrelated to this discussion where you and I could agree and even be friends and have good discussions on.

    I’m fairly certain that the only area of my life where something could overcome the monstrous obscenity of the idiocy Nano’s got going is boobs and money. I’d put up with Nano for enough money and if he was a hottie – or maybe if I was desperate enough one weekend to nail his daughter I’d nod and say whatever either of them wanted to here that dispensed with the panties. For substantial relationships though? I find it as hard to be real friends with the very religious as much as I have a problem being friends with addicts and bigots. Addicts are more fun than fundies and bigots though, because at least they’ve got some style for parties.

  45. Actually, the discussion of copies vs. originals reminded me to point out that I had the great, good fortune of seeing the oldest Bible in existence about two months ago, as part of a big-ass exhibit of sacred Jewish, Christian and Islamic texts at the British Library.  It was waaay kewl—but unfortunately very, VERY crowded.  We nipped upstairs to gawp at the other very cool stuff, thinking that the crowd would thin out closer to closing time.  WRONG!  It was still so jam-packed that we weren’t allowed back in b/c the area was full to capacity.  So I never did see the Lindesfarne Gospels, among any other nifty things.

    But I digress.  The oldest Bible in question was written in a script I’d never even seen before—Syriac.  (Having a long-standing interest in medieval calligraphy and illuminated manuscripts, finding a script I can’t recognize is saying something.)  With all the languages floating around in the Roman Empire, mis-translations are nothing short of guaranteed.  Not to mention that the whole shebang was edited by committee long before King James ever put the stamp of the King’s English on it.  That’s where we get stuff like the Apocropha, after all.  Throw in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospel of Judas, and it gets even more interesting.  But again, our troll-friend is either ignorant or chooses to ignore inconvenient facts.  Again, the choice boils down to self-deluding liar or ignoramus.

    But what I think’s most pathetic about Ken Ham’s fanboys is that they live in a Disneyfied Christianity where Moses, Jesus, etc. spoke King James English and their “loving” god would never, ever commit genocide or even infanticide.  Sigh… If they read any Shakespeare, I suppose they’d mistake that for history, too.

  46. Shakespeare has witches and fairies in it, guys like Nano and Hovind probably burn Shakespeare as unclean.

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