eSkeptic Finds Anti-Science Agenda At Creationist Museum

In today’s issue of the eSkeptic, Stephen Asma reviews New Creation Museum that recently opened in Kentucky.  If you recall, I wrote a bit about this museum a while back, and at the time I thought that the most interesting thing would be how they managed to deal with dinosaurs.

It turns out that explaining how dinosaurs might have thrived in an alternate universe populated with magical arks that floated safely over the world-wide-wet with the rest of the animal kingdom involves a degree of mental gymnastics that would make any self-respecting schizophrenic cringe at its implausibility.  According to Ken A. Ham, the director of the new Creation Museum in Kentucky:

“We don’t know for sure, but from a biblical perspective we know that all animals were originally herbivores.” (Carnivore activity only happens as a result of the Fall — animals did not experience death before Adam’s sin.) “So it is possible that carnivores [including carnivorous dinosaurs] ate plants and grains while they lived on the ark. Even today we know that grizzly bears eat grass and vegetation primarily, so it’s not true that an animal with sharp teeth and claws must eat meat or must be a carnivore. At the very least, the carnivores could survive on vegetation for a significant time span.”

Um … sure.  Let’s not even start with how idiotic that is from a scientific perspective.  It doesn’t even make good sense from a biblical perspective.  Apparently, they want us to believe that about 4500 years ago, Noah was not only able to get two of every kind of animal on the ark, but that the menagerie also included dinosaurs.  On top of that, all the carnivores ate sticks and berries because they weren’t yet carnivores.  In my bible this detail of the time line is pretty clear:  The fall of man came before Noah.  So if the fall precipitated the conversion of all carnivores from a blissful life of veganism, then it clearly occurred prior to the mythic flood.

Aside from such foolishness, Professor Asma detects a recurring theme at the museum:  That sciences like geology and evolution that favor an “old-earth” worldview make the average person feel small and insignificant, which naturally results in all the social ills that we see today.

It’s one thing to be ignorant of science.  It’s quite another to look at scientific evidence and the scientific method and claim that they’re evil.  If you’re a blind-faither, however, evil is what other people do. 

If you ask me, I think it’s likely that this well-funded museum will get get a decent amount of press, and that people large and small will marvel at how nice the dinosaurs were before we started all that thinking for ourselves crap.

While there’s no report on this, I hope there’s carrousel music playing in the background of this museum.  Stupid people need something with which to fill their empty little heads.

 

48 thoughts on “eSkeptic Finds Anti-Science Agenda At Creationist Museum

  1. On top of that, all the carnivores ate sticks and berries because they weren’t yet carnivores

    While it’s not saying much, I didn’t read his statement that way. The claim was not specifically that the ark came after the fall, and so everything was still an herbivore.

    Rather, I read it as “everything was once herbivores, and thus, during the time on the ark, plus the decades or more necessary for all animals of the world to repopulate themselves, the dinosaurs (and all other carnivores and ominovres) were able to get away from their satan-induced mandatory feasting on the flesh of other animals, and go for a vegan lifestyle.

    I’m sure you will agree that this is a much more reasonable way of looking at it, and return you to your regularly schedule reading.

  2. Omnivores maybe…. but there are animals that are obligate carnivores, but wait a minute…. maybe they evolved from herbivores….. oppps! It’s all so confusing.  LOL!

  3. Wow…

    Is it possible that all the carnivores just munched on the other animals of the ship while Noah wasn’t looking? I mean, seriously guys… whatever happened to the griffin? The sphinx? The whatever those half horse/half man dudes were called?

    Lmao. And QueenMillefiori, remember that the word “evolve” doesn’t have much meaning to people like… well… people who supported, funded, and did other important fun stuff for that museum.

  4. I pretty much automatically categorize creationism as anti-science. This particular example is (sadly) just par for the course.

  5. I subscribe to e-Skeptic. Here is the actual quote

    “So it is possible that carnivores ate plants and grains while they lived on the ark. Even today we know that grizzly bears eat grass and vegetation primarily, so it’s not true that an animal with sharp teeth and claws must eat meat or must be a carnivore. At the very least, the carnivores could survive on vegetation for a significant time span.”

    so they are not claiming that the dinosaurs were still vegetarian, but rather that they were able to return to it.

    More to the point (and one not pressed) is: Why is the bible quiet on the existance of dinosaurs, and come to that kangaroos?

    Ham makes the point that most dinosaurs were not that big- fair enough, but where did the big ones come from? They can’t evolved, because that doesn’t happen.

    More to the point, a question I have never seen answered is: How did the kangaroos get to Australia.  These are creatures whose natural environment is semi desert/desert, similar infact to the Middle East. If the ark had landed in Turkey (traditional site for Mt Ararat) they would have had to transverse about 12,000 miles, including mountains and tropical jungle.  There is no evidence of marsupials anywhere outside Austrolaisia.  For a species to have migrated that far in only the last 5,000 years, you would. expect some remnants in the middle east.

  6. Let us not forget how many animals per square inch you would get if the measurements in bible are correct.

  7. But Jim Pinkoski says that the dinosaurs died in the Flood after attacking the Ark.  Pinkoski and Ham can’t both be right- which is it now?

    Sadie-
    Without going out of your door, you can know all things on Earth.—Lao Tzu

    The more you travel, the less you know.—the Beatles.

    I used to think the quote from the Beatles was a self-evident absurdity, but now I’m not so sure.  If, by “know”, one means “sure of some belief one holds”, then I think they’re right- travel shakes what one takes for granted.  Perhaps Lao Tzu meant something similar: that one can be sure of anything, whether rightly or wrongly, without leaving home.

    But you sure can’t learn much about dinosaurs without going out your door, as Pinkoski and Ham demonstrate.  That is, unless you learn from people who have gone out their door, and not just stayed at home reading the Bible and watching the Flintstones.

  8. Oh Hussar of little faith!  Of course dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible- what do you think a behemoth is?

    And about those kangaroos- it doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible that Noah didn’t send them off on a raft (along with those adorable koalas, and the koala-eating goannas) and that they paddled to Australia with their powerful tails.  Do you think God has nothing better to do than tell us every little detail?  Sheesh.

  9. The whole behemoth in the book of job is proof that dinosaurs were walking around with man, is well a fat steaming pile of fairy dung. How can the reference to one large or giant beast have to do with the smaller dinosaurs like raptors, that were in no way behemoths. What about the small nest poaching dinosaurs? Early farms would have been an easy place to get eggs and small livestock. So why don’t we find a record of things like chicken bones at their nesting sites?

  10. How kangaroos got to Australia is my favorite question to ask bible beaters.  They always seem to change the subject.  However, I think they can now take heart that a new passage of their book was discovered that discloses that Noah had a fourth son…

    And the Lord said unto Noah, “Sendeth thy last son, he who ye hath called Curlius Josephus, unto the bilges of thy ark, to pump and clean for the duration.” – Mezekiah 32:13

    A little later we then read:

    And the rains receded, and the Lord said unto Noah, “Now, taketh the roof of thy boatly dwelling, and upend it upon the waters, so that thy last son might leadeth the pouched and hopping ones, and the creepy climbing bears of koala unto their new home.”  And Noah sent his last son upon this raft off into the crashing seas, along with a host of silly creatures upon the roof of his boatly dwelling, nermore to be seen again. – Mezekiah 145:16-19

    So there you have it.

  11. Noah would still need more offspring to get the penguins to Antarctica, and the polar bears to the arctic (they can’t just hop off the boat and swim). That is unless Noah just had the basics like a cat type instead of having lions, tigers and the like. Even then, all the cat species would have had to evolve, and as we know religions deal in absolutes, so that can’t fit with the bible. So, we are lead to think that Noah had 2-7 of every animal on his boat. For this let’s go with the low ball amount of two. I also will use an amount of 75,000 species of animals (including insects you can see how off this number is despite how large it seems) on the ark. I will also give each animal ten square feet of space (that’s 5’ by 2’) to live in. That would mean the ark would need 750,000 square feet of space just to meet the minimum required for just that many animals. The ark as described in the bible would have a floor space of about 100,000 square feet. By this you can see that even with my low estimate of animal species you would have to fit 7.5 per square foot.

  12. But you sure can’t learn much…That is, unless you learn from people who have…who have gone out their door and not just stayed at home… watching the Flintstones.

    Hey!  Don’t be dissin’ on Fred!

  13. Just for the fun of it, two recent quotes from FSTDT:

    “Tell me this, if evolution is posssible, then how come most of today’s living chimps and apes will die off before fully developing into human beings? Explain that.”

    “[And so far, all the evidence collected fits the ToE very well indeed.]

    But what is the theory then? Why don’t we have a single page say on Wikipedia that formally defines what evolution is and what it isn’t.
    Because for Evolution to be something we must obviously know what it is not. Presently every person has his own adhoc defenition and that person can’t tell me how he got his particular version.

    Your whole quote is according to you. You say so. There are other atheists and scientists who differs from your view. You are stateing it with some sort of authority. I am not looking for Arguments from Authority. I want to know who has formally established The Theory of Evolution, Theory of Change or Theory of Everything on the same level that Kepler established his laws via Astronomia Nova 400 years ago, without which we would not have http://www.youtube.com today.”

    Did anybody else notice that compared to other people, creationists have lower brows and are more hairy and that they tend to drag their knuckles on the ground? Could it be they’re devolving back into monkeys?

  14. Zilch,

    I have to thank you for that link to dinosaurs in the bible.

    I don’t think I had ever read it, and I’m truly fascinated.

    For those who didn’t follow the link, I STRONGLY recommend it…and dare anybody to make it through the entire article in one, uninterupted, reading.

    My favorite? The following comments from another page on the site(which I had to use Ctrl-C to get, because rt-clicking gets a link asking me not to use their text.)

    So they start with the assumption that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago, then manipulate the results until they agree with their conclusion.

    Their assumptions dictate their conclusions.

    So why is it that if the date doesn’t fit the theory, they change the facts?

    Unbiased science changes the theory to support the facts. They should not change the facts to fit the theory.

    Too….much….irony…must…escape!

  15. But aren’t the pictures just tooo cute, especially the T.Rex holding the Bible?  Adorable.  Too bad all the dinosaurs are in Hell.  Or are they?  I’m confused…

    That is unless Noah just had the basics like a cat type instead of having lions, tigers and the like.

    Timmeh, that’s exactly what some fundies say: that “kind” is broad enough to encompass all cats as one “kind”, for instance.  Naturally, the evolution necessary to diversify these “kinds” into all the species we have today doesn’t “count” as “evolution”.  Ya gotta love them fundies.

    Consi- far be it from me to diss Fred.  It’s not his fault that Hannah-Barbara pioneered the production of cartoons with talking heads and repeated backgrounds, thereby cutting the expense, and creativity, by a factor of ten.

  16. The less one really knows, Zilch. Do all without doing!

    I used to think the quote from the Beatles was a self-evident absurdity, but now I’m not so sure.  If, by “know”, one means “sure of some belief one holds”, then I think they’re right- travel shakes what one takes for granted.  Perhaps Lao Tzu meant something similar: that one can be sure of anything, whether rightly or wrongly, without leaving home.

    I always took it to be exemplary of the absurdism rampant in Daoist belief. Unlike the organized, monotheistic religions of the West, however, Daoism is actually conscious of its absurdities and relishes in them. Nothing is real, man. It’s a philosophy I can dig.  cheese

    Elwed:

    Did anybody else notice that compared to other people, creationists have lower brows and are more hairy and that they tend to drag their knuckles on the ground?

    They are an especially low-brow breed, now that you mention it.

  17. zilch said:

    and dare anybody to make it through the entire article in one, uninterrupted, reading.

    I tried and failed confused

    Even so, I made it through a couple paragraphs, and found this gem before my eyes started to bleed:

    If you are told something repeatedly year after year – you will begin to believe it. Even if it is not true.

    I find it ironic that this is the mechanism upon which most clergy have placed their job security.

  18. At conference last week some guys were debating Wilma v Betty. One woman had already given up on them, and when June entered, explained the debate.  Her contribution was she prefered Barney. Cue silence, until someone pointed out. “June, your a lesbian.”

    Ahh the finest documentary series ever made and proof dinosaurs and man lived side by side.

    (And for your infomation- I’m a Betty man)

  19. LH: (And for your infomation- I’m a Betty man)

    I’m a Betty woman, for whatever it’s worth. I’m partial to brunettes of both sexes.  smile

  20. No, no, no.  The dinosaurs weren’t on the ark, that’s why they aren’t around anymore. 

    http://tinyurl.com/37mrmh

    And as for kangaroos and koalas, they probably did something to piss god off and were banned from the ark.  Being crafty little buggers, they floated on dinosaur carcasses all the way to Australia.  Any other inconsistencies were caused by a wizard.

  21. I assume ancient peoples saw dinosaur bones.  They had to know that at one time, there were some pretty extraordinary land animals on the Earth.  And those bones were buried.  How did that happen?  Add to this the fact that many early agricultural societies were on river deltas, and that prehistoric societies may have experienced floods brought on by the collapse of ice dams, and the flood legend begins to make a lot of sense.

    What doesn’t make a lot of sense is people believing those legends, today.

  22. Y’know, DOF, I’m in a set of religious studies courses right now, and I still can’t see how people can believe that crap. Literal interpretations of any of the books boggles even my prof (who I consider kinda out-there). Liberal interpretations, on the other hand, are merely a matter of principle – they exist because what was desired in religion, or important, has baggage attached.

    Which, in a way, is kinda sad. Even for the most negotiable among the religious I know, it gives them a sense of community. Strange that so many people can be so close together at all times, and still feel isolated.

  23. I’m partial to brunettes of both sexes.

    And I’m partial to women of all hair colors.  Although there’s a really cute Turkish guy at the local döner place…

    We are trying to be funny, but we can’t beat the fundies.  Recently, I was debating about the order of Creation in Genesis.  The Bible says that grasses and trees were created, on land, on the third day, and life in the water on the fifth day.  When I pointed out that this didn’t jibe with science, the Bible student replied: “there’s nothing in the Bible that prohibited the Creation of life in the water before the fifth day”.

    Nothing to prohibit extranumerary sons of Noah, paddling kangaroos, wizards, or demon-possessed dinosaurs either.  Whoopdidoo!

  24. If double-dipping is a sin, I’m hellbound for sure…

    In case any of you are still unfamiiar with the delightful wackiness of Jim Pinkoski, who brought us fallen angels astride maddened dinosaurs attacking the Ark, check out this treasure trove of his artwork here.  My personal favorite is Jesus bringing His Message to sinless aliens.  Worldclass silliness.

  25. I’m partial to brunettes of both sexes.

    Oh bugger- I’m a blond. A dirty blond though. Play your cards right (i.e have anything better than a 2) and I can be a very dirty blond.

    But seriously folks, remember sex isn’t the answer. “Sex?” is the question. “Yes!” is the answer. (They say men think about sex once every 12 seconds.  I find this hard to believe- what are they- Eunuchs?)

  26. I think I figured it all out. God is a prick (not unlike myself) that likes to screw with people. So he, she, it, created the bible as a way to fuck with people( like I would do) about what is right. Then you throw in some things that don’t make sense, like fossils, to really mess people up (once again same thing I would do) about history. See there you have it god is an asshole just like me, so I must be god like. To think every one said my online ordination was bullshit and I’m more godly than they are.

  27. Zilch: And I’m partial to women of all hair colors.  Although there’s a really cute Turkish guy at the local döner place…

    Alright, now I know you’re after my heart. One of the most beautiful men John and I have ever had the pleasure of knowing and loving is a Turkish guy who came here to study about seven years ago. Needless to say, I’ve got me a little thing for Anatolians.

    LH: Oh bugger- I’m a blond. A dirty blond though. Play your cards right (i.e have anything better than a 2) and I can be a very dirty blond.

    Now don’t you fret. Blondes can be quite delightful, too. Especially the dirty ones. grin

  28. grin  grin  grin  grin  grin  grin

    Whenever Sadie drops hints about her sex life I have to go and have a cold shower!

    Now stop it you little minx, or I’ll put you across my knee and spank you…

    Oh Bugger…

    Excuse me while I take a cold shower…

  29. Mean radius:  6,372 km
    Equatorial radius: 6,378 km
    Polar radius:  6,356 km
    Height of mount Ararat5 km
    Total radius with Ararat 6377km
    Volume of Earth (Mean)    1,083,717,061,382 km3
    Volume of radius to top of Ararat 1,086,270,186,754 km3
    Extra Volume   2,553,125,372 km3.

    Soem of that will be taken up by mountains etc.
    70% of earth is ocean (therefore no elevation)
    Let us assume that 1/2 the remaining amount is taken up by land (this is very generous). There for only 85% of this volume must be accounted for by water. 85% x 2,553,125,372 =  2,553,125,372 km3 of water needed to cover Mount Ararat (which the water must be higher than, according to the bible.  This does not cover the 47 peaks higher than Ararat.

    1km3 water contains 1E12 Kg of water (1 with 12 0 after)
    All the oceans of the world contain 1.4E21kg =
    1,400,000,000 cubic km.
    earth ice caps hold about another 40,000,000km3
    The atmosphere holds approx 25mm worth (if dumped simultaneously)
    So God had to find the same amount of water AGAIN, then 3/4 of that AGAIN.

    Too many beers perhaps

  30. God having had too many beers might explain the Flood, but where did He buy the beers?

  31. God having had too many beers might explain the Flood, but where did He buy the beers?

    Duh—He created them! He can do anything.  wink

  32. God having had too many beers might explain the Flood, but where did He buy the beers?

    Depends on the beer. The Kings Arms in the Market square does locally brewed ‘real ales’. This also has the advantage of sittining in yer actual history- was a land mark in the Civil War. If your prepared to walk a mile then there is the Hop Poles on the Bicester Road, which has 8-10 hand drawn cask ales, plus proper Budwieser (not the bland USian one- the Czech one).  I had a few good beers in a pub which I don’t know the name of, but if off Marine Parade in Brighton, and has its own Micro brewery on site.

    Have I misunderstood the question?

  33. Something I keep meaning to say

    Anti-Science Agenda At Creationist Museum

    Tomorrow
    Man Finds water in Sea
    Scientists confirm Pope is Catholic
    Bush confirmed as ‘Not the best President ever’

  34. My partner and I have been to Yorkshire twice, and hope to go next year again.  She thinks it’s so we can perform there, but the real reason is Black Sheep Ale.

  35. Me, actually. But maybe I’ve just been soured on the stiff beer coming out of Canada. I regret not taking the opportunity to test the many beers available to me during a stint in Europe.

  36. Patness- Canadians are to beer as hockey is to Americans.

    DoF- Unluckily, or luckily, my tolerance for alcohol is pretty limited too.  The difference between pleasantly tipsy and unpleasantly incapacitated is about one drink with me.  I guess I’ll just have to look elsewhere for meaning in my life…

  37. What doesn’t make a lot of sense is people believing those legends, today.

    Bronze age mythology applied to 21st century knowledge – LOL – it just proves how good the scammers are and or how insane and or easily lead the True Believers™ are.

    I think most of ‘them’ imagine god blinking all things into existence like Jeannie or twitching a nose like Samantha.
    With an all powerful god, who’s able to bend reason and logic and every other known law in the universe, it would be quite easy to blink all creatures down to bacteria size so’s they’d take up little or even no room at all nor would they eat much food and then, when all the raining stopped, blink them to the various places on earth they occupy today. What’s the big deal?
    I just don’t see it as a stretch of the imagination at all, at all.

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