Introducing WonderCafe!  The United Church of Canada’s new spin on its own relevence!

The offical press release for Wondercafe

The actual site for Wonder Cafe

An interesting new way by a church to address to all sides of society and yet propogate the focus on one group, their group.  As of yet it doesn’t seem to harbour the strongest of fundies that we sometimes see wander in here however they are in force.  Typically I have joined wondercafe and am hoping to keep them busy sufficiently so that others don’t have to deal with them elsewhere.  If anyone wishes to join me in “keeping the faith”, I will appreciate it.  I personally find this having a double meaning.  It is designed to support free expression yet it is run by a church which tries to focus on specific issues and cater to an audience of strong middle age christians.  I’m not saying that this is a bad thing however it seems kinda contridictory to what it does and its purpose.  I’ll let you decide, I’ve already gone into the trenches.

85 thoughts on “Introducing WonderCafe!  The United Church of Canada’s new spin on its own relevence!

  1. Aaron: I will take quotes from Martin luther,St.augestine,Mother teresia etc… on the gronnds that THEY DEVOTED THEIR LIVES TO THE STUDY OF SCRIPTURE …

    The anti-Semitic Luther was a catholic who wanted to get married and also to have power for himself so he invented the cult of the Lutherans.

    St. Augustine (note the spelling) took the view that the Biblical text should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason.
    That runs contrary to the ‘thoughts’ of most conservative xian fundies.

    Mother Teresa … well she’s a different animal.
    A group of critics “have argued that her organization provided substandard care, and were primarily interested in converting the dying to Catholicism,…”
    “In 1991, Dr. Robin Fox, then editor of the British medical journal The Lancet, visited the Home for Dying Destitute in Calcutta and described the medical care the patients received as “haphazard”. Dr. Fox criticised Teresa claiming that her order did not distinguish between curable and incurable patients, putting curable patients at risk.”
    “Fox also wrote that needles were rinsed with warm water, which left them inadequately sterilized, and the facility did not isolate patients with tuberculosis.”

    Aaron: and the challange to take a conservitive stance on anything is genuine, SEROIUSLY TRY IT!!!!!!!

    Are you seriously suggesting I, we or one should try taking a conservative stance?
    No way, Hose.
    Conservatives never changed a thing. They’d have kept us chained to Hunter Gatherer status.

    You have to thank radicals and libertarians for the world you live in.
    Radicals invented your religion based on the few thoughts of a radical Jew and widely advertised by Paul/Saul, a Jewish Roman citizen.
    We, radicals and libertarians, changed attitudes on Slavery; Civil, including voting, Rights for all men and women (regardless of creed or colour); some civilised societies have even outlawed the death penalty.

    Radicals and libertarians invented all your communication devices starting from the Gutenberg Press printing bibles for the plebes; they invented all current Housing, Plumbing (Sewage & Water) and how to use showers, toilets and electricity.
    Radicals and libertarians gave us the knowledge of Astronomy, Cosmology, Physics, and Chemistry and let’s not forget the advances in Medicine that enables you to live longer and healthier.
    Without us the priests would still be controlling all of your life …sounds like they may still do in your case.  wink

    Without Radicals you’d still be stoning to death adulterers, people who wore clothing made of polyester/cotton blend, farmers who grew more than on crop in a field, disrespectful children, anyone who worked on the Sabbath and let’s not forget stoning to death any bride who proved not to be a virgin on her wedding day.
    I’m sure there are a number of other ‘sins’ for which we are no longer stoned.
    I said ‘we’ there cos Freedom of Thought is rather a new freedom … again not something respected by conservatives.
    Without us you’d still be living in a hovel thinking fire was the best invention since …

    Hell, radicals even agreed to change your flag from Mother England’s Red Ensign to the Maple Leaf in 1964.

    No Aaron. I’ll leave ancient-thinking, giant surveillance-camera-in-the-sky believing, Conservatives alone as long as y’all allow me and other like-minded Humans the freedom to evolve in the 21st century.
    That very notion scares the crap outa y’all, doesn’t it?
    That someone might be getting some enjoyment you won’t allow yourself.  LOL

  2. I think some of my ideas in this thread come under the radical category, and as LJ said, that’s how we push forward, by challenging accepted standards

    Free radicals are important in chemistry wink
    OK, bad joke

    LJ- Getting stoned need not be a punishment:

    Answerphone: “sorry i’m not in, if you’d like to order some marujana please press the hash key”

    OK I stole that one too smile

  3. Damn. That Page 1 2 3 stuff’s happening.
    I could get used to it one day.  wink

    Consi: I’m not saying you’re overmatched in the brains department, I’m just saying he [Elwed] is a lucky sum beach.  Not only has he managed to marry way beyond what he deserves, but like the proverbial monkey at the keyboard hammering out Shakespeare, he manages to write cogent sentences.  The odds of a liberal being able to do this boggles the mind.  Better to look for someone who is not as much of a luckbox.

    Good one, Consi.  LOL LOL

    Aaron: Pss.I won’t be responding for a day or two as i have to use a capsite for this

    What the fuck’s a capsite?
    Is this some sort of new-fangled computer thingy of which I’m not yet aware?

    DC: If there was a god keeping people eternally in hell he would have questionable morals himself, you may learn from the punishment but if you were trapped there forever there wouldn’t be much point in keeping you suffering afterwards.

    A nice application of logic – something foreign to fundies. wink

    Aaron: can you imagine a world without rules?

    Why do xians and muslims (is there a difference?) think atheists don’t like rules?
    I’m an atheist and I like the fact I can walk down the street and probably not get mugged or killed.
    No, those rules/laws have nothing to do with religion – if we live peacefully in society to agreed to standards of behaviour, life can be ok and the goal of life (procreation) can be reached more easily.
    George Bernard Shaw: Life is not meant to be easy, my child; but take courage: it can be delightful.

    Aaron: distantclaws from your view of Life trust me you arnt going to hell you are already there!

    Trust you??
    I thought one of your idols said: Judge not lest ye be judged.
    YOU FUCKING ARROGANT JUDGEMENTAL CUNT!
    You’re the perfect example of talking the talk but not able to WALK THE WALK.
    You’re the typical xian hypocrite.

    DC: Getting stoned need not be a punishment:

    Correct. THC has been my favourite drug for nearly 40 years.
    The answer-phone thingy reminded me of going to Macca’s and asking for a cone.

    Last night, Mate #2 gave Mate #1 and me some beautiful heads.
    Having freed myself from the enslavement of Nicotine 20 days ago (after 45+ years) Mate #1 took ‘em all and is gonna make some cookies for me.
    Mmm mmm.

    DC, there’s not much that many of us don’t steal, it’s just that most of us forget we heard it somewhere.

    And, see you in hell where ALL the good people hang out; i.e. those who aren’t members of the particular sect of the xian, islam or hindu cults the faithful slave is selling this century.  LOL

    By an act of blind luck (?) Aaron was born into a western country which sold xianity as its first class ticket to … ta da … heaven.
    (Aaron, would you take 72 compliant virgins if they were offered to you?  LOL  )
    Wasn’t he lucky not to have been born into a tribe of ignorant savages in the middle of what’s left of the Amazon rain forest?
    He’da been believing in the giant juju up the mountain or in the river, like his witchdoctor told him to believe in as opposed to the occult beliefs his current witchdoctor is telling him to ‘have faith’ in.

    No one is more enslaved than a slave who doesn’t think he’s enslaved.
    DoF once said: Making fun of fundies is like hunting dairy cows with a high-powered rifle with a scope.
    I’d better stop. LOL

  4. We, radicals and libertarians, changed attitudes on Slavery;

    LJ, I’m shocked!  Nevertheless, welcome to the Republican party. grin

  5. As far as more recent “radicals” go, I am forever grateful to Tom Hayden and Allen Young of the SDS (the latter a key figure in the LGBT advocacy movement), Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Margaret Sanger, Betty Friedan, and Dr. Alfred Kinsey (who demonstrated that, despite wishful thinking to the contrary, people did think about sex in the 1940s and ‘50s).

  6. LJ – nice one, I’ll wait to see the response

    LJ: And, see you in hell where ALL the good people hang out

    Heavy metal, rock ‘n’ roll, and all the other music that’s supposed to go to hell has gotta beat churchy music anyday. Actually this just made me think of meatloaf who is clearly from what his music implies a good person but maybe disillusioned with the view of heaven, apparantly he recently released Bat out of Hell 3, I’ll buy that soon methinks smile

    LJ: Aaron, would you take 72 compliant virgins if they were offered to you?

    I always wondered if the virgins supposed to be replaced when they lost their status, if not can they be re-used? 72 isn’t so many when they’ve gotta last eternity, and just imagine running out and being eternally horny – especially if like god you could see into all the bathrooms at once… I at least hope a metaphysical DIY method would exist

    which sold xianity as its first class ticket to … ta da … heaven

    You have a point, fixed belief packages come with the promise of heaven, despite these packages being a human’s interpretation. A reasonable god would allow some variation in views because he would accept that we don’t know the deal, I hope if existing he would also be more interested in our conduct than worship, because creating people only to worship you is shallow satisfaction

  7. DoF once said: Making fun of fundies…

    I wish i could take credit for that one, LJ, but thank you for the thought anyway raspberry   Here’s the actual quote:

    “Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope.”
    – P. J. O’Rourke

    And here’s a couple more from my quotes file:

    “You can’t get rid of poverty by giving people money.”
    – P. J. O’Rourke

    “The weirder you’re going to behave, the more normal you should look. It works in reverse, too. When I see a kid with three or four rings in his nose, I know there is absolutely nothing extraordinary about that person.”
    – P. J. O’Rourke

    “No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we’re looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn’t test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.”
    – P. J. O’Rourke

    Good stuff, though I have no idea who P.J. O’Rourke is, or was.

  8. Them Brits, ain’t they the same ones used to have some interesting views about penal colonies? Just askin’?

    As a Brit I feel like I work at a penal colony sometimes, to pay my train fares (£40/week) to uni i work as a labourer of sorts (£100/week) at national minimum wage rate (£5/hour) in a part of the country where house prices are high (average £180000, cheapest rent aprox £100/week). It is expected of us to turn up 15 mins early for morning briefing and stay behind 15 mins after for locking up and security checks, none of this is counted as it has to be a whole 1/2 hour on one side of the workday to be legally recognised as overtime, this is a daily occurance and non-compliance is disciplined. Local unemployment is such that finding work is difficult and people are easily replaced.

  9. Them Brits, ain’t they the same ones used to have some interesting views about penal colonies? Just askin’?

    Except we no longer have then, unlike the US. Or what do you think a chain gang is?

  10. LH, are you over 30 or are you disputing you’re a blackguard?

    Except we no longer have them, unlike the US.

    Consi, being a man who knows a bit about the law, does any other country have a penal colony like the USA has Gitmo?  smile

  11. LJ- 29 and holding (but I’m not saying how long for…) wink

    What were you doing on TMP?  I’m guessing you Googled.  I have been trying to find the source of the quote for ages- I used to know it, but I forgot.

    I’m a wargamer (if you followed John’s link and wandered around TMP you may have guessed), and I’m getting a bit of a reputation at my wargames club for the ‘glorious’ cavalry charge.  Last night I charged cannons.  Ideal for Napoleonics and 18th century, but I am the Union commander in the American Civil War campaign we are doing, where cavalry was more often used as mounted infantry or for scouting.  This is the sort of mentality that got me cast as Ney for the Quatre Bras refight.

  12. DOF: Good stuff, though I have no idea who P.J. O’Rourke is, or was.

    He’s sort of a republican mix of Dave Barry and Hunter Thompson if you can believe that. Pretty funny guy, lots of great books. I’d recommend starting with Republican Party Reptile.

  13. He’s sort of a republican mix of Dave Barry and Hunter Thompson if you can believe that.

    Wow.  That alloy had to have been formed in zero-gravity or something…

    Sounds interesting… i enjoy incongruity.

  14. Oh LH, I didn’t connect that you were the Last Hussar who asked the question.

    Father, I can not tell a lie – I Googled your quote specifically to find out the translation as my schoolboy French has all but deserted me – and I had such a great accent too.  wink

    By 1800 [at 25] he [Antoine Charles Louis Lasalle] had become colonel, and in one combat in that year he had two horses killed under him, and broke seven swords.
    It’s a wonder he lasted another 5 years.
    I doubt there are too may Frogs like him about these days, eh?  wink

    General George S. Patton: I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me.
    Norman Schwartzkopf: Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion.
    Marge Simpson: We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it.
    Regis Philbin: The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee.
    And just for DoF …
    P.J. O’ Rourke: The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don’t know.

    DoF, I’m glad you pointed me to PJ’s Wiki – now I’m not surprised I often get he and H. L. Mencken mixed.

    LH, The Wiki Wargaming page you pointed to is interesting.
    It clearly shows there’s nothing new under the sun – even the current computer gamers may have the likes of chess but prob’ly more specifically go to be thankful for.

  15. I used to be ‘not bad’ at Go- I got to about 10 Kyu in my teens.

    I have computer wargames of various hues (I don’t include RTS in this) which are great for the fact you don’t need an opponent, but you can’t beat the weight of the lead in your hands, plus a real human across from you, plus of course the beer- wargamers like their version of the ‘19th hole’ too, where tales are told (and embroidered) and bad die rolls are bewailed.

    As far as I know I am the only Last Hussar posting anywhere, and my interests are diverse.  The TMP post is because I couldn’t find the attributation anywhere.

  16. LJ: General George S. Patton: I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me.
    Norman Schwartzkopf: Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion.
    Marge Simpson: We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it.
    Regis Philbin: The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee

    Check out:
    French military history on albinoblacksheep for a laugh
    Well If we can’t keep the ashes we can at least invade france to feel better wink

  17. DC, thanks for the laugh. LOL
    I’ve disliked the French (as a nation) since they sunk the Rainbow Warrior in 1985 and continued their nuclear testing on Moruroa in the Pacific, until eleven years ago, when the world knew better but the French in their one-dimensional arrogance gave the world the finger and continued.
    I’ve not, knowingly, bought any French products since 1985.
    I’m sure there must be some nice French individuals around; I just haven’t met one yet.  smile

  18. I was wondering, wouldn’t greenpeace be better off protesting in cities rather than out at sea with ships like Rainbow Warrior? People who whale and other things could just keep doing so regardless (assuming the physical presence of the ship doesn’t stop that, I don’t really know how whaling works), and the public won’t see the campaigns so much out at sea. I mean the ships themselves produce carbon emissions unless they could use sailships for the same purpose. Environmental policy needs changing at the legislative level in my view, and winning over voters seems the long term thing

    Environmentally I consider global warming the biggest threat to life, so much so I consider nuclear as the lesser of evils compared to fossil feuls, any affects are much more localised. When we run out of oil I wonder how the international economic situation may change – brasil might be well prepared with it’s wider use of alcohol cars, problem is that to get the same energy it releases more CO2 into the environment than oil, and being sustainable it will continue pumping out carbon long after we run out of oil.

  19. DC- Bio fuels take up more CO2 growing than they produce. Using chip fat in diesels therefore actually lowers the amount in the atmosphere (don’t try it with out the converter kit though). Though it is best to use fresh oil, you can filter the stuff after it has been used in a deep fat fryer, thus elimnating much of the disposal problems.

  20. LH: Bio fuels take up more CO2 growing than they produce.

    They reduce demand for oil and are made by photosynthesis using CO2 i guess, but how I meant was chemically – sugars and to a much lesser extent fats are more oxidised than the plain hydrocarbon, this means there is less energy left to release by burning (further oxidation), and without knowing anything about engines my guess was that you would need to burn more to achieve the same energy output – but I suppose vehicle engines are more dependant on pressure than energy due to needing compression and that changes the emphasis, but for heating water it’s entirely an energy thing

    (more oxidised fuels take less oxygen to burn too because they already have some incorporated into their structure- I guess that allows a richer mixture, and from a pressure point of view you need fewer molecules to start with so overall pressure change will be more positive, and that could be why carbon emmission in the bio-vehicle is less)

  21. I read about bio-fuels a couple of years ago after hearing about them on Radio 2, this is where I heard about the “negative” (relatively) emmisions.  The fuel can only release what it contains, so all carbon it gets it takes through photosynthesis out of the atmosphere.  Not all that carbon will come out as greenhouse gases- some willstay in the engine as deposits.  Fuel(MPG)Efficiency is immaterial for purposes of carbon output- if it uses more fuel, it just means that more corn/rapeseed etc hat to be grown, to provide that fuel.  Fossil fuels got their carbon 65 million (or whatever) years ago, so do not affect the uptake of CO2, only the out put.  Grow a field of biofuel ( thus taking up CO2)then burn it you can only release whet is already there.

  22. Biofuel is certainly an interesting idea, and might have some limited uses.  However, it can’t completely supplant other sources of energy at current rates:

    Using the current yields, vast amounts of land and fresh water would be needed to produce enough oil to completely replace fossil fuel usage. It would require twice the land area of the US to be devoted to soybean production, or two-thirds to be devoted to rapeseed production, to meet current US heating and transportation needs.

    – from the Wikipedia article on Biodiesel efficiency .

  23. Sort of in the way that guns won’t replace bows because of the reliability, rate of fire and range.  Or mankind will never need more that 5 computers.

  24. LJ,

    We agree on the French and have exercised the right to express our displeasure, for different reasons of course, the same way. 

    As regards your statement about an alleged penal colony, it appears to me that you may have a reading comprehension problem that you are not aware of at this time.  Being non-judgmental as I am, and a believer that we all should be inclusive of the stupid and the ugly, I point this out you with the only the love of one member of the world community to another.

  25. Zilch: Biofuel is certainly an interesting idea, and might have some limited uses

    One idea I particularly like is making certain plastics from cornstarch or other biological sources, this keeps the photosynthesised carbon locked up and may decrease oil demand. As for the usefulness of the plastic – that’s not for me to say.

  26. Consi, the information haphazardly ensconced by easily parried thrusts into my metaphorical gonadic area whilst being abso-fucking-lutely aware of my limited intellect is once again clearly camouflaged [ smile ] but nevertheless advertised by your obtuseness in not explaining whatever the fuck you’re attempting to cleverly communicate.
    I realise that sentence trips over itself but being a dim wit gives me licence to do what I want. smile
    As for my having problems of which I am unaware … there are none with which I am unfamiliar to a smaller or lessor degree adequately described by the use of short of long, known and … or unknown words … but thanks for being so empathetically, or should that be pathetically, considerate.  wink
    Oh, and as usual, you didn’t answer the question … do something new.  LOL

  27. Aaron:and Micheal I agree that it is unfortunate that most of us are still on stage one, but since we are thankgoodness that their is a God![athiests dont coment on this you know what i mean]

    Aaron, you are most certainly an intellectual coward.  That would normally irritate me to the point of using the word fuck a lot, but I find you likable enough, so I’ll restrain my initial impulse to write you off as just another gullible, superstitious thrall that has apparently never heard of spellcheck.

    Instead, a challenge.

    Elsewhere, true believers have made what I take as the correct claim that belief in God is not a matter of intelligence, scientifically verifiable evidence, or reason.  I find a similar thread in many of your arguments, such as they are.  So my challenge to you is to admit – to yourself if not here in this forum – that your world view is guided by a fundamental rejection of science, logic, and reason. 

    If, on the other hand, you think there is value – any whatsoever – in rational and logical thinking , the the additional challenge is to simply ask yourself why you believe what you do – and earnestly seek the answer with the power of the intellect you say your god gave you.

    My thesis is that you’re a coward – that’s you’re willing to use logic sometimes – but not when it comes to what you appear to take as the the central point of your existence.  I believe that you think you’re being open minded and logical and brave for commenting on SEB, but when I read your words, I see the mind of a dupe.  I see someone who’s probably bright, but who’s been indoctrinated into a cult – maybe even the same cult that his parents or significant others also live in.  I think you’ve got a mental blind spot.  If I were religious, I’d pray that you would one day be able to see what’s there. 

    Aaron: His last comment makes Him sound like a Klansmen

    He may or may not be a Klansmen, but the Klan is most assuredly a Christian organization.  You might want to look into the history and motives of your Christian brothers and sisters.  I might say they give the Christianity a bad name, but it’s hard to top some of the other atrocities committed in the Lord’s name.

  28. Thanks, Michael, I enjoyed that.
    What a shame Aaron will probably not read this as he is off somewhere sucking his thumb whilst basking in the ever-present, radiant, make-believe, love and light of JAsus, the only begotten, immaculately conceived and, painlessly delivered, sun [sic] of THE Lord God (PBUHim) and from THE, still after all these years, Virgin Mary (PBUHer).
    To me, that sounded like Chaucer doing an intro.
    A thrallLOL

  29. MP – I like the approach, gives him a chance and inspires thought, and quite a fair and patient test for him classify himself in our eyes, he knows what we’re looking for in his comments.

    Aaron – If you’re still here, It’s OK to admit that a theory may be incomplete, nobody alive has all the answers yet, that’s what I have said in the past about both science and religion having fundamental things to explain. Sometimes it’s just a case of piecing together what we can from scraps of information we know from science and trying to fit any religion around it – I am fully behind St Augustine’s view, which LJ said earlier:

    LJ: St. Augustine (note the spelling) took the view that the Biblical text should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason.

  30. LJ: A thrall? LOL 

    Nice!  I was actually thinking of the second sense of the word as described here.

    Since everyone’s doing quotes these days, here’s my favorite thrall quote:

    It is not “Can any of us imagine better?” but “Can we all do better?” Object whatsoever is possible, still the question recurs, “Can we do better?” The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.

    —From Abraham Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address

    (emphasis added)

  31. …thanks for being so empathetically, or should that be pathetically, considerate.

    You are most certainly welcome. grin I try. wink

    Consi, the information haphazardly ensconced by easily parried thrusts into my metaphorical gonadic area whilst being abso-fucking-lutely aware of my limited intellect is once again clearly camouflaged [ smile ] but nevertheless advertised by your obtuseness in not explaining whatever the fuck you’re attempting to cleverly communicate.

    With all due respect, I ain’t exactly sure what it tis that you are saying.  So I’ll parse it as I see fit. wink  First, I would not ever attempt to emasculate you.  However, should I ever decide differently, it would not be with easily parried thrusts. snake  I did want to give you kudos on your own personal recognition of your limitations.  A word of advice from one dimwit to another:

    “If human beings are perceived as potentials rather than problems, as possessing strengths instead of weaknesses, as unlimited rather that dull and unresponsive, then they thrive and grow to their capabilities.”

    -Barbara Bush

    Godspeed LJ. grin

  32. then they thrive and grow to their capabilities.

    I Googled that because for some reason I couldn’t see that vacuous female saying anything too bright.
    It turns out Bob Conklin said something similar.
    I can’t be bothered sorting who said it first but I’d rather believe that murderer (if he’s the same man) than the mother of your current one.  LOL

    Godspeed LJ.

    Thanks, mate. If it existed I’m sure it would be better than any other brand.  wink

  33. Haven’t heard from Aaron for a while, I’d like to think he needed time away from SEB to think about what’s said, hopefully giving him food for thought and hopefully realising he needed to think about it to get across what he was trying to say. If he left disillusioned then I hope he will think about it to find peace. I was not too unlike Aaron a few years ago.

    The transition from faith to thought is a big shock to the system because it blitzes what gave them security in the past (which is in my view what makes faith popular and why you need a lot of stamina to change convention), if this is what happened and if he survives, then the benefits to everyone he affects, if he suicides without the psychological security then that will affect everyone he affects too, though differently. There is always a better option than suicide, even if that is to lay down and do nothing, and you are never in a completely inescapable situation.

    For anyone depressed or wanting to avoid depression, you can think your way out of it by becoming at peace with what troubles you, there is no way back to the days of security for those who can’t help questioning, but don’t avoid the deep though that can result in depression, it benefits everyone around you and your understanding.

    There is always a better alternative to suicide and you are never put out of your depth. There are religious theories that suicides have to re-experience everything that led to it, because that life is written off on karma grouds, I don’t know if this is true or not, but it’s possible and enough reason not to try it.

    In addition you are only alive a finite amount of time, and so can only experience finite suffering in a life, but can bring near-infinite benefit by the long term consequences of what you do, also if life is temporary then hell, might as well see what happens at least.

    When you are depressed you are often less afraid of the life-threatening and the night, and that can actually be nicer.

    —-
    I look forward to the discussion on his return if questioning the faith is what’s happened. It could take quite a while though because it is a tall order. I’ve been persistent because I saw potential.

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