Homosexuality topic free-for-all

This thread is for everyone to talk about gay marriage, or how gays should have civil rights, or not have civil rights, or general theories of what causes homosexuality, or why that doesn’t matter, or WHATEVER.

… so we can let Consi and Shelly (and others with very specific contributions to make) explore the very specific topic of the genetic basis of homosexuality (if any) to be found in the twin studies.

Have at it!

152 thoughts on “Homosexuality topic free-for-all

  1. Subscribing as well.

    Along the DOF lines, a question I pose to people who ask when i chose to be gay: ‘When did you choose to be straight?’  Of course it’s slightly flawed, but gets my point across. 

    My 2 cents:
    If I had a choice, I would not choose to be persecuted and denyed human rights (and in some countries exicuted by law). 

    Anywho, I’m intersted in following this and hearing what people think.

  2. Oh I can tell this is going to be a real intelligent thread. I already disagree with your statistical information regarding homosexual percentages in the population. 

    The evidence in ascertaining the calculation is clearly flawed. In my case the evidence makes it’s way to my hand in the shower, and “What I was Thinking” just before it becomes the evidence. This has so little to do with Science. It’s a matter of people who try to harness others, and not allow them to openly choose love.

    Repression, Denial, Indifference, Fupidity, That’s what this is really about.

  3. Actually we’ve had a lot of threads that address the civil-rights aspect, and philosophical aspects of homosexuality.  It probably won’t kill us to focus on the narrow question of genetic basis for homosexuality for one whole thread. 

    Personally I have less interest in the methodology of the studies (since it is difficult to get straight answers – pardon the expression – out of people on their gender preference) than I am in knowing why, if heterosexuality is genetic, homosexuality would not be genetic.  But methodology is important and worth discussing anyway.

  4. As a lay person on this subject, (since I am hetrosexual there is definitely no pun intended) it never occured to me, nor do I think that homosexuality is genetic.
    I have always been of the opinion that it is strictly biological.
    As for the 10% rule I always knew it was around 2-3% and thought that the 10% bit was propagated by the gay community to make themselves seems more mainstream than they really were.
    I have quite a few gays friends and get along with them quite well but do wish that they had stayed in the closet instead of flaunting their sexuality with todays “in your face” attitude.

  5. moses: I have quite a few gays friends and get along with them quite well but do wish that they had stayed in the closet instead of flaunting their sexuality with todays “in your face” attitude.

    I’m pretty sure you know, but for the record, there are a wide variety of personalities that go with being gay.  I, for one, do not lisp, love to fix cars, BBQ quite often, love watching hockey, go camping, hike, rollerblade, and can spend hours in Home Depot. 

    I’m curious as to what the percentages constitute.  Is that a percentage of the population who considers themselves 100% homosexual?  (Kinsey 6)  Or does it include any and all of the flavors inbetween?  Bisexual?  Transgender?  etc.  We’re the studies to come up with this number anonymous?  Did it take into account how some people won’t talk about their sexuality openly?  As in, if an Evangelical Christian preacher took the study, and he has had sex with other men, do you think he would really answer honestly?

  6. I’m pretty sure you know, but for the record, there are a wide variety of personalities that go with being gay.  I, for one, do not lisp, love to fix cars, BBQ quite often, love watching hockey, go camping, hike, rollerblade, and can spend hours in Home Depot. 

    Yes – Yes – I know, and that’s not what I’m talking about.

    The media, because it is so populated by gays, is constantly flaunting homosexuality out of all proportion to the percentage of the population that is gay. This was done right down to the point where fashion models were required to adapt an androgenous look to promote a certain stereotype.

    And by the way Jeffercine, why are you calling into question the studies on the percentage of gays?

  7. And by the way Jeffercine, why are you calling into question the studies on the percentage of gays?

    There’s such a broad range of people’s sexualities,  I just want to know exactly what those numbers represent.  I don’t see a problem with wanting to know if the percentages include various ranges of bisexual men and women as well.  Or if it’s strictly 100% homosexual men and/or women.

  8. I have a suspicion that if you included bi-sexual people that number could start to approach the 10% mark.
    By the way I don’t know if “bi” is biological or the son of a bitches are just constantly horny tongue wink

  9. If you took straight guys and included the ones that get horny enough to fuck a chicken then we have hit the 10% mark.  cool smirk

  10. By the way I don’t know if “bi” is biological or the son of a bitches are just constantly horny

    Actually, it’s just the ultimate example of not descriminating based on gender.

  11. I must be missing something…

    Why does it matter what ‘causes’ homosexuality?  Whether it is proven to be purely hereditary or not shouldn’t have any bearing of the rights of gay people.

    Aren’t we over-analyzing things here?

  12. KKop: Why does it matter what ‘causes’ homosexuality?  Whether it is proven to be purely hereditary or not shouldn’t have any bearing of the rights of gay people.

    I agree completely.

  13. The only way that ‘how a person becomes gay’ has any merit is in religious debate.
    If its hereditary, then ‘why did God do that?’ can be applied.
    If not, then it can be considered a choice and therefore a sin.

  14. Well, I suppose it could be a factor if you really and truly wanted to change your sexuality. If there were a genetic marker then you could conceivably take a pill and find other things to do with the guys over the weekend besides watch football, then take another pill and be heterosexual enough to get a rise from your girlfriend. Or something like that.

    While it doesn’t appeal to me now, I can see how doubling my gender preferences for having sex could make for more dates.

  15. And now Don proves that his reading comprehension is as flawed as his writing ability.

    First, dipshit, you’ll notice, if you bother to read, that this post is by Consigliere, not Les. So taking Les to task for someone else’s opinions is a bit stupid, don’t you think?

    Second, as the post in question made clear, this thread is NOT about gay marriage, it’s about the origins of homosexuality, be they genetic or enviromental.

    As to whether there is any value in determining this (brought up in more sensible posts than Don’s) I can only comment that all knowledge has its value. If someone could tell me why I like ham much more than beef, I’d like to know. It wouldn’t change anything, I’d still like ham, but I’d like to know.

    I feel pretty much the same about this. All knowledge is good.

    Lastly, thank you, Consig, for the amount of time and energy you’re bringing to this discussion. I look forward to following this thread very closely.

  16. I have a curiosity in knowing what causes a person to be gay, although I seriously doubt that a discussion such as this will bear any fruit.  I personally know that being gay not a choice, I also do not believe that it is caused by ‘nurture’. 

    I have been doing some Googling for studies that are looking into the causes of homosexuality. 

    Nobody currently knows whether being gay is genetic or not.  The published twin studies are disputed by various people for various reasons.  Many of the studies that purport to be investigating the cause of homosexuality appear to be biased toward either trying to show that homosexuality is a choice or is caused by something that can be cured.

  17. Doctor M. : If its hereditary, then ‘why did God do that?’ can be applied.
    If not, then it can be considered a choice and therefore a sin.

    And if it’s a choice, it can be unlearned or even physically wiped out. We’re doing amazing things with soldiers these days. You don’t have to clean it up everywhere, just your neighborhood, …or your state. We’re also doing amazing things with the Constitution these days.

    Like Spock said to Dr. McCoy: “Remember”

  18. Let me get something straight here just so I know exactly what we are talking about.
    First of all gay is not a matter of preference, that we all agree on.
    Now when you ask the question is it genetic I assume you mean is it inherited because it is not.
    When I say it is biological I mean that it has been proven to be chemical and maybe other factors such as wiring in the brain that came about during the developmental process. (I don’t remember whether it was in the womb or shortly after.)
    If this is all the debate is about there is your answer.
    Allan

  19. As I said above, and now repeat here, there’s plenty of other threads to discuss other aspects of homosexuality.  Let’s stand back and let Consi and Shelly discuss the twin studies.  It will be at least interesting to some of us, and possibly useful as well.

  20. I was wondering about that “biological” business, Moses.

    But how do you know it isn’t inherited? Maybe just a little bit?

    But I still have issues with:

    I… do wish that they had stayed in the closet instead of flaunting their sexuality with todays “in your face” attitude.

    If we try to keep today’s attitudes out of our faces, will you cooperate?

  21. Brock: Sorry, DOF. I didn’t think this was really a private thread.

    Neither did I, but since the more general topic has been (and will continue to be) discussed at length elsewhere, I propose we try to keep this thread a little closer to the topic than is usual. To that end I submitted a parallel thread for related observations.  I don’t think Les has approved it yet or perhaps I goofed it up somehow.

  22. decrepitoldfool: Let’s stand back and let Consi and Shelly discuss the twin studies.

    Well can we at least wait until Shelly gets here?…alright alright, I’ll go to your thread.

    Consi didn’t make me feel welcomed here anyway.

  23. ANOTHER open thread on homosexuality?
    Ok, here we go again…..

    Homos should not be allowed to marry.
    Gayness is a genetic defect.

    Hitler is god…
    Blah, blah, blah….

  24. My “theory” regarding homosexuality, in two parts:

    Part One:

    Sexual preference follows a spectrum, rather than a sharp gay/straight dichotomy. Most people are at the “straight” end of the spectrum, fewer are at the “gay” end. But in between is a smooth continuum.

    In other words, there are 90/10 men (attracted to women 90 percent, attracted to men 10 percent), 10/90 men (attracted to women 10 percent, attracted to men 90 percent), as well as 60/40, 20/80, 35/65, and everything in between. There are also, obviously, 100/0 and 0/100 men. Ditto for women.

    The concept that any male who’s ever had sex with another man is automatically to be considered “gay” is superficial and misleading, in my opinion (reminding me of a supposed racial rule I once came across in America’s Deep South – that if you were one-sixteenth black, you were automatically a full “Negro”). There are “straight” men (call them 90/10s) with wives and children who have had one or more encounters with other men.

    I can easily agree that this continuum is very heavily weighted toward the “straight” end of the spectrum.

    (Part of what leads me to believe all this: I know a “gay” man who says a number of his sex partners have been “straight” men, and another who says that all but one of his partners were “straight.” In the same vein, a notorious womanizer friend of mine has told me he’s also had a number of encounters with “gay” men. A quote: “Your dick doesn’t care whose mouth is down there.”)

    Part Two:

    There is more than one cause for arriving at sexual preference. I’d predict that when we finally know, there will be at least four causes, and perhaps more, with the possibility of overlap and cross-influence.

    I can imagine FIVE possible causes. They are:

    1. Something genetic.

    2. Something hormonal during pregnancy. For instance, apparently boys born at the end of a string of male births are slightly more likely to be “gay.” I think I remember reading the speculation that the mother’s immune system may react to the successive waves of testosterone, eventually suppressing the third or fourth son’s testosterone production, thus slightly feminizing him before birth.

    3. Early sexual experience. Since orgasm is tremendously reinforcing, a male whose first sexual encounter is with another male may simply be reinforced in that direction initially, and follow the reinforcement to become full-fledged “gay” – perhaps never even trying sex with a woman because he’s satisfied with things (the specific partner, for instance) as they are. This experience could be early molestation by a much older male, or simple experimentation with someone of one’s own age.

    4. What amounts to imprinting. I’m supposing a possible “window” period in human brain development during which we’re at least a bit susceptible to specific sexual influences. Puberty itself might be the “window,” but it might also come much earlier. It’s a mystery to me how people become sexually turned on by silk, or shoes, or the speaking of French, or black leather, but if there WAS such an imprinting window, I could imagine it as a solution: An experience during the “window” could seed a slight predilection which would become more firmly established as years of experience reinforced it – eventually resulting in a full-fledged leather fetishist, etc. Or someone with an overt “gay” orientation.

    5. Simple fear of women. The kid has a harpy mother who scares the hell out of him, or an aunt who once frightened him badly (if the kid’s extremely sensitive, this could be so minor as to be undetectable to the rest of us) or an older sister who mistreats him for years, and he simply becomes incapable of intimacy with females. Possessing the strong sex drive we all have, yet being unable to trust women, he turns to male partners. Reinforcement over time does the rest.

    (Just a side note: Some of these causes might allow “recovery,” under certain circumstances – so that a man “gay” in behavior might be able to become “straight” in behavior – but others might not.)

    A side note: There’s a “top-bottom” axis (of sexual submissiveness and aggressiveness) that juts off from this gay-straight continuum line. I haven’t really considered it, but there might be a lot more complexity brought into the thing by this factor. For instance, I can imagine a submissive man might end up in a “gay” relationship or experience simply by allowing a more aggressive partner to take the lead.

    Finally: This is all speculative. It rings fairly true to me (The part that rings truest is the idea that there is no single sharp line separating “gay” from “straight” – and the thought that endless discussion of the oversimplified “gay-straight” model is just plain stupid.) …

    … but I could be dead wrong about the lot of it.

  25. ANOTHER open thread on homosexuality?

    Eat it, motherfucker!

    Homos should not be allowed to marry.
    Gayness is a genetic defect.

    Just so I know, how do you justify your particular affliction?

    See, told you I’d come, DOF.

  26. Here we go again indeed:

    Homos should be allowed to marry.  They should also be allowed to wear Hawaiian shirts.
    Gayness is genetic and environmental.  It is “defective” in the same sense that the Pope and adoptive parents are “defective” for not passing on their genes.

    Hitler painted some pretty kitschy landscapes.  But then again, so did God (Corfu comes to mind), so maybe Hitler is God.

  27. Eat it, motherfucker!

    Thank you, I do eat pussy quite often.

    Just so I know, how do you justify your particular affliction?

    What would that be? Knowing the real truth? Having the balls to speak what’s REALLY on my mind?

  28. DOF:

    Thank you.  I was stunned to see 32 comments to an introduction.  I trust you are more than capable of surfing thread drift.

  29. Hank, you left out an obvious sixth possible reason for homosexuality:  the Fall.  Adam was obviously not gay (there’s a nice picture of him here).  And is God gay?  No way, not the way He relished ordering the Israelites to rape and pillage.

    That means that Eve afflicted us with gayness by biting that apple.  The exact etiology of gayness- whether the cherubim guarding Paradise injected gay cooties with their flaming swords, or whether God mucked about with Adam’s genes while He was making Eve’s hips narrow enough to ensure difficult childbirth, or whether Satan created Judy Garland, may never be completely unraveled.

  30. Freedom for all, or freedom for none!

    If straight people can be recognized as married by the law, gay people should have the same right.

    I’m for abolishing “legal” marriage completely. If you want to commit the rest of your life to someone, that’s fine, but I’m the government and I really don’t care what you do relationshipwise.

    Gayness is probably partly genetic, partly environmental. And that doesn’t matter at all. Unless you’re planning on finding a “cure.” But I wouldn’t recommend that, not after what happened in X3.

    -Bob

  31. Brock: Eat it, motherfucker!

    It works out the most healthy thing you could put in your mouth is Mark Foley’s penis.
    This is one of Bill’s best, don’t you think?  LOL

    Molly: Knowing the real truth?

    When I hear someone say that I know that it translates to: I read or found out about some shit and it sounded like the truth to my limited intellect so I stopped looking for the truth.
    Very Xian and Muslim and what ever else takes your fancy.
    Please don’t think your truth is breaking new ground as a truth like, civil rights for all adults did; it doesn’t/won’t.
    This is the same elitist thinking that other demagogues come up with to justify their warped existence.

    Molly: Having the balls to speak what’s REALLY on my mind?

    Ha-ha. It doesn’t take balls, mate – being a psychopath is enough to allow you to speak what’s REALLY on your mind too – just like suicide bombers – they don’t give a fuck about anyone either.
    Little people shit me.  sick

    Don: not after what happened in X3.

    I know that X3 is probably an in joke but the only thing I know about X3 is that my mate’s wife has a 3.00 V6 BMW one.

    Because I’m a really nice bloke I’m gonna give you two tips.

    To quote in a blue box you hi-lite the text you wanna quote, go down to the white comment box, click in it, then click the quote button. If it doesn’t appear right click and paste between the 2 *quote* signs.

    To quote from another web page as I did with the X3 quote, you right click on, and copy, the address of the web page you want us to see, go back to the white comment box, hi-lite your reference word/s, click the

    < a >

    symbol and a box will appear – right click and paste, click ok and then click ok again and VOILA!!
    I could even teach dad to do that.  wink

  32. Zilch: Homos should be allowed to marry.  They should also be allowed to wear Hawaiian shirts.

    I’ve come a long way from my Hawaiian shirt hating days. I’m more open-minded now and feel anyone who is gay should let the world know for certain by wearing one.

    LuckyJohn: It works out the most healthy thing you could put in your mouth is Mark Foley’s penis.

    Can I just say that it still grosses me out to read “Mark Foley” and “penis” in the same sentence. And I bet he usually cleans other guys penises for them.

  33. Brock: See, told you I’d come, DOF.

    Glad you’re here!  The more expertise, the better.  When I say “I’m feeling gay,” it’s just that boring old “light-hearted and happy” meaning. wink

    Consi: I trust you are more than capable of surfing thread drift.

    This one’s all about the drift, Consi baby!  If it’s gay, if it’s queer, we’ll talk about it here!  LOL

    And pretty much – what Bob said, with this added: there probably ARE some people who choose to be gay, and that’s OK.  For me it all comes under “the pursuit of happiness”, that oft-ignored principle of freedom.

  34. Homos should be allowed to marry.  They should also be allowed to wear Hawaiian shirts.

    Most gays have enough taste to know better than to wear Hawaiian shirts.

  35. Most gays have enough taste to know better than to wear Hawaiian shirts.

    I knew you “guys” were in cahoots.  “Dress loudly and proudly” is my motto.

  36. Once again, I think gays and lesbians are generally some of the greatest people in the world. I’m strongly in favor of gay marriage, gay adoption, and gay rights across the board.

  37. Allright, since this is an open thread…

    A while back, I was in Ottawa with a group of other students I didn’t know particularly well.  We wanted to take a bus downtown at around 11 PM, but someone told us the bus didn’t run at that hour.  I said “What?  that’s gay”.  Please understand.  I’m not a homophobe and I support gay marriage.  What two people do in the comfort of their home is none of my goddamned buisness.  To quote the late great Pierre Trudeau: The State has no place in the bedroom of the nation.

    When I say ‘That’s gay’ I mean ‘That’s lame’ not as a derogatory comment about homosexuals, but just as a general statement. 

    One guy in the group got fairly pissed and lectured me about not using that expression.  He also accused me of closet homophobia.  I mumbled an apology, not expecting the shit storm I had set off.

    But as time passed I thought about it.  And I discussed it with other people (and other gays).  And I now feel that I won’t feel bad about saying ‘that’s gay’.  Why?  Because as liberal white male, I feel a fair amount of liberal guilt.  I know that historically, I’ve had an advantage.  But I’ve been pushed to the edge of liberal guilt.  That’s all I can stands, I can’t stands no more (so to speak).  The gay guy I offended didn’t know me, and had no reason to accuse me of closet homophobia.  Furthermore, since he didn’t bother to find anything else about me, he’s being just as much of an ass as I was.  And as my brother pointed out, its not as if the meaning of Gay hasn’t already been changed.

    This may seem trivial, but I’ve been thinking about this since it happened.  I would welcome comments or opinions (unless you’re going to call me a fashist, in which case you’re gay:))

  38. LJ- I’m fairly certain that “X3” refers to the third X-Men movie, which involves the discovery of a “cure” for the genetic mutations which cause some people to have superpowers in the Marvel universe. The analogy between the fictional mutants in this series and unpopular minorities in the real world is intentional and overt, although people often miss it somehow.

    Moloch is pretty much a one-note joke, right? I say we stop humoring the kid and let him find a better/ more original use for his time.

  39. Some gay guys do dress loudly

    Dixie Longate is a drag queen, and happens to be #1 in sales for Tupperware.  Dixie and her minions sell about $200,000 of plastic crap per year (mostly to Republican homemakers).  Just think, Tupperware is a multi-level sales outfit and the #1 seller is VERY well known within Tupperware management.  Dixie also “stars” at the annual Tupperware “Jubillee” convention.  I almost feel sorry for the Tupperware executives.

  40. IDM wrote…

    Most gays have enough taste to know better than to wear Hawaiian shirts.

    Hey now, don’t be hatin’ on my Hawaiian shirts.

  41. From the Simpsons:
    Homer: There’s only two kind of guys who wear those shirts: gay guys and big, fat party animals. And Bart doesn’t look like a big, fat party animal to me…
    Marge: So, if you wore a Hawaiian shirt, it wouldn’t be gay?
    Homer: Right. Thank you.

  42. Thanks and sorry about that, Les…and Consi.

    I knew it was my fault. Did you see how I tried to fix it? I typed

    < /i >

    (minus the spaces), submitted and ended up with an empty comment box.

    I’m not usually that stupid, just tired. Can’t get to sleep.

  43. Brock:

    I’m saddened to see your fashion sense has been corrupted by the degenerates here.  I should have expected this.  If one hangs around the barber shop long enough, sooner or later, she’ll end up getting a haircut. 

    idm:

    Grave men, near death, can’t see the blinding sight,
    Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
    Rage, rage, against the blinding of the sight. 

    Stand strong, stand strong.  Lest, the final wall of good taste crumble here.

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