Guns don’t kill people.

Here’s an interesting thought on the Second Amendment:

DOCTORS:
A. The number of doctors in the US is 700,000.
B. Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000.
C. Accidental deaths per physician is 17.14%
Statistics courtesy of the US Dept. of Health & Human Services

GUNS:
A. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000 (yes, that’s 80 million).
B. The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
C. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%
Statistics courtesy of the FBI

So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Remember, guns don’t kill people, doctors do.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS A DOCTOR

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We should ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!

Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

From Roger Owen, February 10, 2006

 

53 thoughts on “Guns don’t kill people.

  1. Looking at this, I’d be quite interested to see the stats for un-accidental gun deaths per year. I’m quite surprised at the number of accidental gun deaths per year though.

  2. I would be interested in un-accidental deaths by handguns too, but I think that no matter what they are, the attitude of the gun owner is far more important than the fact that they have guns.  You fix the accidental deaths by teaching people how to safely operate a handgun.  You only fix the other by taking away the motive, not the tool.

  3. I’m also curious to know how they’re defining “accidental” death by doctor. Is this someone in perfect health coming to a doctor and then the doctor accidentally giving out the wrong prescription? Or is this people that are already injured or ill and there’s just nothing that can really be done?

    I’m suspecting it’s the latter, in which case, the study is worthless.

  4. This ‘study’ is a joke.  I’m sure the numbers are made up or at least severely out of date, but it makes a clear point: Statistics are NEVER the whole story.  This point is valid.  Statistics can be used to justify a whole range of things, and both sides play that game.  The only thing I know for certain is that the issue of gun-control is a political tool.  If it were a solved issue, then no one could use it in a political platform and squeeze any votes from it, so no one is looking to solve it, only to look like they are trying to solve it.

      If you’re looking for real info, don’t look to the latest ‘study’ or what either sides PAC is saying about it.  You’ll get misinformation or outright lies.

      Personally, if you’re going to play the statistic game, I think it would be better to compare guns with cars.  I think you have more parallels to work with, but be careful.  Nothing else on the planet is produced with the express purpose of killing another human being, and then marketed to the common citizens of this country (the US).  That’s going to mess up any statistics you’re liable to get your hands on.  Since death is the purpose of a firearm, you have to look at why and how the death occured, not simply the fact that it happened.  Accidents are all different.  Was it improper storage of the gun, or did someone forget the safety and was goofing off with it, or was it a terrified man trying to defend himself when he accidentally shot himself?

    Non accidents are different too.  Was it a criminal shooting a victim, a policeman, or a shootout where an innocent bystander was shot?  Was it a man defending himself from a mugger?  Was it a drug dealer shooting another drug dealer?  Was it a hit?  Was it a criminal who got the weapon away from a victim and then shot him?  All of these can be put under the heading: “handgun deaths”  but they are all different and only one or two are influenced by what passes for gun-control on the books now.

    Raw statistics are useless unless you know the context of the way they were run.  The questions are often more important than the answers.

  5. Of course, this is completely a one sided argument that uses statistics improperly.  As mentioned in previous posts, you could also examine the number of *intentional* deaths made by guns versus *intentional* deaths by doctors.  I’m sure the statistics would be skewed even further in the other direction.

  6. Recently I tried to find out (while writing a post about ephedra that was never published) how many people die each year from stomach bleeding due to aspirin and similar pain relievers.  Best figures I could find were about 7,000 people a year.  And the iatrogenic association reports something like 50,000 to 96,000 deaths from medical mistakes each year, and they’re an advocacy group. 

    However, the phrase “the statistics game” is what people say when they don’t like the numbers.  Or: “You can prove anything with statistics”.  I think statistics gets a bad rap.

    That said, the gun owners I know don’t worry me at all.  But pillows – there’s a weapon.  Silent, effective…

  7. And many people die when lying on a pillow.  Suspicious.  Maybe old age isn’t lethal, its the pillow!  Disease just weakens your immune system enough so that the pillow can finish the job!  All fear the pillow!

  8. Statistics are not the problem.  But they are valuable only if you understand how the statistic was generated.

    If someone comes to you and say’s: “There were 3,000 gun deaths last year.”  That tells me nothing of how dangerous or effective guns are.  Unfortunately, those kinds of statistics panic some people.  Everytime I hear or read a statistic, I always have more questions.

  9. A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history, with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. Mitch Ratcliffe.

    The problem isn’t easy access to guns, but easy access to oxygen. Certain people shouldn’t be breathing. Don Feder.

    There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Benjamin Disraeli.

  10. I was curious to see what the responses to this entry would be. I almost didn’t post it if only because it’s one of those arguments that I’ve always felt were dishonest. Whether or not more people die every year from doctor’s mistakes versus accidental shootings is irrelevant to discussions on the second amendment and whether or not gun ownership is a problem. Comparing the two statistics doesn’t tell you anything useful to the debate.

  11. I would like to see someone define what an accidental death is in this study. My guess is that a very liberal (not in the political use of the word) definition was used. For example if a patient was told you have one year to live unless you get operation X but that operation has a ten percent chance of death. If the patient takes the operation and dies you could call it an accidental death. Those statistics are just too shocking for me to actually belive them.

    And how about a link to the source rather than the general us dept. of health and services. I spent a few minutes searching for the study and quickly gave up due to the lack of good goverment websites.

  12. Swordsbane: Everytime I hear or read a statistic, I always have more questions.

    Agreed.  I HATE reading an article that states some statisic X, and no explanations of how it was derived. 

    My favorite was one that linked brain cancer to computer monitor usage in the late 80s, based solely on increasing numbers of both.  Never did hear about the trends AFTER the “green” EPA monitors came out. 

    I hate it when someone gives me biased info.  Just give me all the straight facts, I can bias it myself without your help, thank you very much.

    Guns don’t bother me.  Homocidal maniacs, with or without guns, bother me.

  13. statistics can be twisted.
    this would have been better if the guns were compared to scalpels.

    as for the date of this article, i saw it passwd around years ago. back when
    juno was big as an ISP.

    Sexy Sadie :Bullets piercing the flesh at an excess speed of 100 miles per hour kill people.

    yes, bullets go fast. but how fast really?

    a quick jump on google reveals, between 1100 & 4000 ft/s
    for some pistol and rifle rounds.

    the speed of sound @ sealevel is: 660 ft/s
    this is also notated as mach1, which means that
    munitions travel between mach 1.66 (720 mph @410 gr round weight) 
    and 6.06 (2727mph @55gr round weight). Damn, that’s fast…

    so a bullet with a weight of 55gr (grains) traveling at 2727mph
    is the same as one that weighs 149985 grains at 1 mph.
    roughly 21.4 lbs.
    like a large heavy pointy stone dropped 6 inches from one’s head.
    guns are just more refined cave man tools and aren’t
    that far from clubs at all…
    ..but I like ‘em.

  14. yes, bullets go fast. but how fast really?

    Fast enough to do the job efficiently. downer

    Personally, I don’t see the appeal of guns. I can see how some people might find them nifty, but the sub-culture that has arisen out of an insane obsession with firearms (i.e. the NRA) just leaves me scratching my head. Even more bizarre are gun shows, which seem to attract the lunatic fringe of the political and social right-wing.

  15. Any “nifty” thing attracts some level of attention.
    Granted, purpose, function or intent can almost always be argued
    that almost anything is good or bad. Ive spent much time
    sleeping on a rifle in many climates. Most comfy
    pillow I ever had.

    Its been years but I still miss it.

    I enjoyed hunting for years. But I valued an animal’s
    life more than a humans. Still do, they are honest all of the time.

    There are some simple rules in life that are unrefutable:

    1) if its eyes are on the side of its head and it has a wide
    field of vision, its food. if i has eyes in the front of its
    head and binocular sight, try not to get eaten by it.

    2) upon the weak, the strong will prey. [somehow i think
    fistfights worked better after school than guns. makes a thicker
    skin & thats good for kids.
    you dont end up with bitchy whiny adults that think
    theyre special or privleged]

    3) deep down inside were all cavemen.
    humanity hasnt changed in thousands of years and
    its probably not going to anytime soon.

  16. It’s not the guns, it’s the power. Anytime you can take some power from the politicians, I say HURRAH! Or am I the only one who has noticed that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely? A good reading of the Federalist Papers shows that one of the arguments the Founding Fathers used for not fearing the strength of a federal army was the balance that the armed citizens and the armed militia offered against that strength. Balance is a good thing! And, yes, I think the argument against doctors was a bit specious, but it did gender some comments. Remember Shana’s thread about bread?

  17. Quoayn: Ive spent much time
    sleeping on a rifle in many climates. Most comfy
    pillow I ever had.

    Just like Charlton “cold, dead hands” Heston (or was that under his bed?).  tongue wink

    Leguru: Remember Shana’s thread about bread?

    No, ‘fraid not. Do you mean “bread” as in the slang term for money, or “bread” as in sustenance derived from grains? I’m always up for interesting threads.

  18. Remember Shana’s thread about bread?

    I do, leguru.  Shana, where are you?  Where’s your bread thread?

    It’s not the guns, it’s the power.

    Well, anytime someone is killed by a gun, there’s a whole chain of causes: the gun, the bullet, the intention, the aim… interrupt the chain at any point and no one dies.  The question is, presuming that we want to cut down on gun-inflicted deaths, where do we break the chain? 
      Here’s another statistic that may, or may not, be pertinent:  America has the highest murder rate, by far, of all the First World countries.  And the highest rate, by far, of handgun ownership.  Coincidence?  Here in Austria, it is much more difficult to get a handgun than in America, and the murder rate is about a fifth of that in the States.
      I won’t make the dubious claim that the high murder rate in America is solely a result of easy availability of handguns.  There are obviously lots of factors, and probably they are too complex to completely sort out.  I will also add that the people I know with guns (in the States- I don’t know anyone here who has one, other than a policeman friend) don’t worry me a bit either.  It’s the angry kids with nothing to lose, who find it all too easy to get their hands on a piece, who worry me.

    Even more bizarre are gun shows, which seem to attract the lunatic fringe of the political and social right-wing.

    Sadie, I went to a gun show in Portland, Oregon, years ago, to buy some mammoth from a knife maker.  I was a bit nervous about my reception there, with my hippie long hair and beard.  What I didn’t know is that some of the lunatic fringe looked just like me, so I fit right in.  Bizarre it was indeed.

    Any “nifty

  19.                         Homicide Rate     Household Hand

    Country                     Per 100,000 Pop.    Gun Ownership

    United States                       5.7                   29% 

    Canada                             2.2                   5%           

    Australia                           1.9                   2%           

    New Zealand                       1.5

    Belgium                             1.4

    United Kingdom                   1.4                   1%

    Switzerland                         1.3                   14%

    Denmark                           1.2

    Germany                           1.2                     7%         

    France                             1.1                     6%   

    Holland                             1.1                     1%   

    Japan                               .6

    Ireland                               .6

    ….Coincidence?…

    Actually, yes.

    Until someone can adequately explain how DC can have the highest murder rate in the country and also the most restrictive gun-control laws on the books, or how Switzerland in this list can have 14% gun ownership but not a commensurate homicide rate, or why Australia is higher than Germany, France and Holland, or why England is so high with only a 1% handgun ownership rate.  This is what I mean by playing the statistic game.  Make a judgement based on one piece of data that seems to support your argument, ignore the other pieces of data in the same data set, and imply a conclusion that is too encompassing to be warranted without additional data that isn’t in this data set.  In simpler language; make the statistics mean what you want them to mean.

      It isn’t the guns.  It’s the culture.  I think the fact that a lot of people own guns in this country is a symptom of the same problem that makes the murder rate high, not a cause.  If that is correct, then you can mess with gun laws all you want and it wont change a thing, except for the portion of the citizens who are law-abiding and don’t murder anyone.  In any murder plan, the choice of weapon is the weakest link, the easiest part of the plan to substitute.  You want to stop people killing each other? Find a way to make them not want to kill.  Even if you could somehow take away guns from every criminal, in a few years we’ll be right back here debating the “knife menace”  Its not how we kill our fellow man…. It’s the fact that we do it, and that’s what we have to focus on.

  20. I enjoyed hunting for years. But I valued an animal’s
    life more than a humans. Still do, they are honest all of the time.

    im sorry Qoayn maybe i dont understand…your saying you hunted and killed animals for years, even though you respected their life more than humans???? i wouldnt like to live next to you…if u can kill animals whose lives you respect more than ours then you could kill humans? the men in white coats r on their way….

  21. Personally, I don’t see the appeal of guns. I can see how some people might find them nifty, but the sub-culture that has arisen out of an insane obsession with firearms (i.e. the NRA) just leaves me scratching my head. Even more bizarre are gun shows, which seem to attract the lunatic fringe of the political and social right-wing.

    This might help: a Guide to gun-show vernacular (humor)

    Seriously, precision control of power is… uplifting.  Golf, Zen archery, competition shooting, auto racing, martial arts, off-road bicycling – all have this in common.  Alas, I am a lousy shot even after quite a bit of practice in my youth. 

    Hunting and respecting animal life –  my dad used to go out hunting a lot.  He was an excellent shot and good at tracking but unfortunately he had a soft heart.  He’d get the deer in his sights and think; “what did he ever do to me?” and then bring home a box of apples from an orchard on the way home.  Which led to the expression; “Daddy shot us a box of apples!”

  22. I think the fact that a lot of people own guns in this country is a symptom of the same problem that makes the murder rate high, not a cause.

    I would say it’s both a symptom and a cause, swordsbane.  That’s why I qualified my statement by saying “There are obviously lots of factors, and probably they are too complex to completely sort out.”

    If that is correct, then you can mess with gun laws all you want and it wont change a thing, except for the portion of the citizens who are law-abiding and don’t murder anyone.

    If we were all angels, we could sell guns to anyone who wanted them.  But no one would want them if we were all angels.  Do you think there should be no limitations on gun ownership?  Frankly, I’ve never understood why any sane non-criminal could be against strict handgun laws, including waiting periods, thorough background checks, mandatory training (that’s something the NRA is good at), and registration.  It’s not as though I’m going to stop the Feds from doing whatever they want with me if I’m packing heat they don’t know about.  And if you’ve got a gripe with the government, and gun control has put a crimp in your plans, there’s always the Timothy McVeigh route…

    Seriously, precision control of power is… uplifting.

    Indeed it is, DoF.  It’s an amazing rush to feel in control of power beyond your own.  In fact, a celebrated theory by William Calvin postulates that the precision control necessary to throw rocks at game is partly responsible for the rapid enlargement of Homo sapiens’ brains, and thus was literally “uplifting” in an evolutionary sense.

  23. Contrary to the stereotype of a gun-hating liberal I don’t tend to have a problem with the second amendment or gun ownership in general. That said, I do think there are some reasonable limits to what should be allowed so I also have no problems with the restrictions on, say, fully automatic rifles.

    The only guns I’ve ever owned were toy cap guns and one really pathetic single-cock action BB gun that couldn’t shoot out a window without a hurricane force tailwind behind the BB. It wasn’t even good for target practice because it didn’t leave enough of a mark to tell where you hit the target. Which isn’t to say that I’ve never held a gun as my grandfather was an avid hunter and taught me to shoot a .22 caliber rifle in my teen years as well as a shotgun. I’ve also fired a number of pistols as well as the civilian versions of several assault rifles from a friend’s private collection.

    I understand the fascination with guns that some people have and I have enough of that same fascination in me that I get enjoyment from the gun play involved in most First Person Shooters, but I’m not so enamored that I feel the need to go out and buy a gun myself. I realize that FPS games are a poor substitute for the real thing from having experience with them, but it’s close enough for me.

    All of that is to say that I can see both sides of the issue and am not beholden to one viewpoint over the other. In general I think America has a pretty well balanced set of laws in regard to gun ownership, though it could use some polish in various areas.

  24. DOF: Hunting and respecting animal life – my dad used to go out hunting a lot.  He was an excellent shot and good at tracking but unfortunately he had a soft heart.

    My grandfather and my father used to hunt, and being the animal-lover that I am, I used to get a bit self-righteously angry about this. Then my dad shared with me his personal philosophy regarding hunting: “Never, never kill any animal that you don’t intend to eat.” I found myself understanding him a lot more clearly after that. I could never kill an animal, but I find my dad’s old style of hunting (he doesn’t hunt anymore) far more respectable than those who kill just for the thrill of killing.

    Hmmm, this thread is reminding me a lot of a certain Ted Nugent. As much as I disagree with much of the Motor City Madman’s politics, I think he’s a talented musician and I enjoy a lot of his music. I mean, “Stranglehold” is just such a great song to groove to when you’re on the road.

    And there’s no denying that hot chicks with guns make for a titilating sight. Take Emma Peel, for example. Rowrr!

  25. Then my dad shared with me his personal philosophy regarding hunting: “Never, never kill any animal that you don’t intend to eat.

  26. It’s commendable not to waste food, but at least in Europe all large predators themselves have been hunted to extinction. At the end of the day, hunters have to take up the slack and cull animal populations that would otherwise grow unchecked.

  27. Same way here.  Deer populations just explode in agricultural areas and have to be culled lest starvation overtake them.  Only problem is, natural predators go after the weak and sickly.  Hunters want to bag the biggest, healthiest ones. 

    For a very touching angle on hunting to support a family, read Gerry Spence’s The making of a country lawyer about his childhood in Colorado.  He and his father went hunting to put meat on the table.  (The book has lots more than that to recommend it).

  28. Forgot to say, Sadie, I am an Avengers fan from way back.  Have you seen the video Don’t Get Me Wrong by the Pretenders?  A tribute blending Avengers clips with their band members in a period adventure.

    Totally agree about Emma Peel!

  29. DOF, the hunters I knew did both – as far as deer are concerned, the monitored the herds all year long, figured out the rate of attrition, and culled them proportionally. In nature, even big and healthy animal have their bad days.

    It’s another way of saying that the hunter groom herds of deer like cattle. Without their natural predators, it’s probably not so hard to maintain a proportionally larger number of big and healthy deer, say. As long as enough healthy breeding stock remains at the end of the season, there’s really no reason to complain.

    If on the other than you refer to marauding herds of trigger-happy city slickers out to exercise their rifles for the sheer fun of it, all bets are off. In that case, I’m in favor of arming the deer.

  30. ..and on i drone with my quips, comments and retorts:

    Sexy Sadie: Just like Charlton “cold, dead hands

  31. Have you seen the video Don’t Get Me Wrong by the Pretenders?  A tribute blending Avengers clips with their band members in a period adventure.

    Yes, it’s great. I love the Pretenders and the Avengers! About a month ago I bought the entire Emma Peel collection (with the ‘65, ‘66, and ‘67 seasons). My wallet was about $155 lighter after the purchase, but it was well worth it. I’ve been utterly addicted ever since. I think my favorite episodes are a tie between “The House That Jack Built,” “A Touch of Brimstone,” and “A Room Without A View.” I love them all, though.

  32. Not only did Dick Cheney not eat all the quail he shot, but as far as I know didn’t even take a bite out of the lawyer…

  33. Qoayn:

    After all they deserve the opportunity to live with reminders that war isn’t pretty.

    I agree.
    Pity we can’t maim the fuckers who cause them. wink

  34. Shana was kind enough to send me her bread thread.  Here it is:

    !!! BREAD IS DANGEROUS !!!

    Research on bread indicates that:

    1. More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread users.
    2. Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households score below average on standardized tests.
    3. In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, the average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality rates were unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and diseases such as typhoid, yellow fever, and influenza ravaged whole nations.

    4. More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours of eating bread.
    5. Bread is made from a substance called “dough.” It has been proven that as little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse. The average American eats more bread than that in one month!

    6. Primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low incidence of cancer, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s disease, and osteoporosis.
    7. Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and given only water to eat begged for bread after as little as two days.
    8. Bread is often a “gateway” food item, leading the user to “harder” items such as butter, jelly, peanut butter, and even cold cuts.
    9. Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more than 90 percent water, it follows that eating bread could lead to your body being taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into a soggy, gooey bread-pudding person.

    10. Newborn babies can choke on bread.
    11. Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 400 degrees Fahrenheit! That kind of heat can kill an adult in less than one minute.
    12. Most American bread eaters are utterly unable to distinguish between significant scientific fact and meaningless statistical babbling.

    In light of these frightening statistics, it has been proposed that the following bread restrictions be made:
    1. No sale of bread to minors.
    2. A nationwide “Just Say No To Toast” campaign, complete celebrity TV spots and bumper stickers.
    3. A 300 percent federal tax on all bread to pay for all the societal ills we might associate with bread.
    4. No animal or human images, nor any primary colors (which may appeal to children) may be used to promote bread usage.
    5. The establishment of “Bread-free” zones around schools.

  35. This is the first I have heard of the dangers of Bread.  Thanks, zilch, for pointing out these important bread-related facts!

    If you think bread is dangerous, you should read up on the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide – http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

  36. Research on bread indicates that:

    1. More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread users.

    And have you noticed that the rise in global warming corosponds closely to the end of the big band era? Logical fallicies rock!

  37. Pfft, Big Bands?  Such fuzzy science.  Global warming apparently began (according to PZ Meyers) when there weren’t any more old-school pirates.  You know, because pirates are cool.

    And he’s a real scientist, so he should know.

  38. I enjoy guns, always have. I’ve owned several handguns over the years. I don’t hunt (too much of an animal lover) and I’ve never turned a gun on another human being.

    I shoot at targets. I enjoy doing so. I also like playing darts and shooting pool. I seem to get a great deal of pleasure out of hitting things with precision projectiles.

  39. DOF, maybe that explains why I saw a pirate flag flying in a back yard on the way home from work Thursday. Long live His Royal Noodleness!
    KPatrick, maybe the herd instinct for survival and a species memory of how we evolved from others by developing our brains. The thrill of reaching out and touching someone (or something) in the precise spot we aim for.
    Moving back to the reasons the writers of the Constitution gave for armed citizenry: a balance to prevent the federal army from becoming TOO powerful. The key here is balance of power. Has anyone noticed that a few people in power tend to abuse their power, unless there is some counter-measure to balance that power? Am I given to understatement? wink

  40. On the news tonite we (Oz), suffered our first casualty in 3 years of ‘engagement’ in Iraq … by accident (intended ambiguity). He’d been ‘in country’ a month and was cleaning his ‘empty’ weapon … shot himself in the head.
    What can I say? Fuckwit … but there are families hurting. Carelessness. Angry>>Sad. Shit!!! angry
    He musta missed the lesson about – There Are NO Empty Weapons.
    THAT’S why I don’t like weapons.
    A moment of complacency &/or inattentiveness and …

  41. Until someone can adequately explain how DC can have the highest murder rate in the country and also the most restrictive gun-control laws on the books, or how Switzerland in this list can have 14% gun ownership but not a commensurate homicide rate

      That’s easy. DC is high because neighboring counties have easy availability of guns, and even in DC it is highly variable, with SE DC by far the highest. Switzerland: Most of the guns there are rifles, not handguns. Two sure predictors of gun violence: 1. No middle class. When poverty lives next door to wealth with no middle class, you have a problem. 2. Too many young men. Large numbers of young jobless men make a good predictor of violence, as can be seen now in many nations.

  42. That’s easy. DC is high because neighboring counties have easy availability of guns, and even in DC it is highly variable, with SE DC by far the highest. Switzerland: Most of the guns there are rifles, not handguns. Two sure predictors of gun violence: 1. No middle class. When poverty lives next door to wealth with no middle class, you have a problem. 2. Too many young men. Large numbers of young jobless men make a good predictor of violence, as can be seen now in many nations.

    Yeah, like I said, the culture.  To get any adequate indication of how guns affect crime, you have to track a whole lot of variables (some of which we don’t know) and compare it with crime in places where guns aren’t.  I admit that guns are more dangerous than… say… knives, but communities that have the greatest impact on violent crimes are not the ones who have tough gun laws, but the ones that have tough crime laws, and the people who can’t tell the difference, I don’t want making the laws I live under.

  43. I don’t mind Australians having water. I just don’t think they should be allowed cups or bottles.

  44. Alex, the way it’s going Oz is experiencing a bit of a water shortage. Wide-scaled drought in fact.
    We need a few months rain.  wink

  45. The recent murders of four oalnad policemen by a convicted crinimal release on parole has the usial liberal stupidheads calling for even more gun control laws proving their stupid and brainless muttonheads WHAT REALY NEEDED IS A TOTAL BAN OF PAROLE FOR DANGEROUS PEOPLE LIKE LIBERAL STUPIDHEADS

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