37 thoughts on “Up to 1000 boys separated from parents by a religious sect.”

1. All in the name of ‘faith’.  How can all of those parents not stand up and say “I don’t think so.  You are not taking my child away from me!”  Are they that scared of their faith that they will allow people to take their children away?  Thankfully there are families and groups out there to help these people.  I need to donate to groups like Smiles for Diversity more.  *looks to see if my company has a matching program for them*

2. I hope they arrest all those parents and church officials for child abuse, not just that Jeffs guy.

   Man, if that’s what God is like, I don’t wanna go to heaven!

3. I don’t have anything against polygamy, be it polygyny or polyandry.  To each his/her own.  But making polygyny mandatory is crazy and sexist, and abusing children is criminal.

   As far as the FLDS regarding blacks as inferior, the main Mormon church officially held this position until 1978, and it beats me why any blacks who have read the Book of Mormon would want to join the LDS.  But then again, lots of stuff beats me…

4. Originally posted by Neil T.:
   Today’s Guardian reports how a polygamous Christian religious sect has been separating hundreds of teenage boys from their parents:

   A good way to insult Christians is to recognize the Mormon church as a Christian sect.

5. They have as much claim to the title of Christian as any protestant does.

6. How so?

7. …or as any Catholic does, given all the stuff in the Douay Bible that’s obviously not the Word of God.  For instance, from Tobit 3:

   7 On the same day, at Ecbatana in Media, it also happened that Sarah, the daughter of Raguel, was reproached by her father’s maids,
   8 because she had been given to seven husbands, and the evil demon Asmodeus had slain each of them before he had been with her as his wife. So the maids said to her, “Do you not know that you strangle your husbands? You already have had seven and have had no benefit from any of them.

   I mean, I can almost believe Mary having one husband and still being a virgin. But seven? Whoohoo!
   Actually, I have nothing against Catholics.  They’re just as logical as any other Christians.

8. Theo, from Wikipedia:

   According to Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition, “Mormonism differs from traditional Christianity in much the same fashion that traditional Christianity… came to differ from Judaism.” While adherents of Mormonism have always considered themselves to be Christians because they believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and the Son of God, they also understand that there is an essential and irreconcilable difference between Mormonism and other Christian sects.

   They’re just as logical as any other Christians.

     Zilch, you need to be good!!!  lol

9. Could you imagine if something like that were done by a group of say Wiccans or ateists of any stripe? It would be front page, national news and Bill O’reilley would be demanding the people responsible to be electrocuted on his front lawn.

10. This story actually took up most of page 3 in the printed edition of The Guardian yesterday. That said, very few other mainstream news outlets have picked this up. Liberal bias my ass.

11. Zilch, you need to be good!!!  lol

    warbi, you’re right.  Sorry to everyone I have ever made fun of.  As my brother said,

    I don’t know but I been told
    Can’t get to heaven in a jello mold

12. Even Jello molds are going to Heaven if any of those “sad excuses for religious” are.

    I’m starting to become jealous of the British. They’re getting all the real news stories these days.

13. And going off of warbi, Christianity is not considered a sect of judaism.  It’s an entirely different religion.  Mormonism is not a sect of Christianity it is a religion uniquely its own.

14. That was actually the from the Wikipedia entry on Mormonism- not my words; however, since they all worship the same god, technically they are from the same religion.  Jesus was supposedly a Jew and those Jews who felt he was god’s son formed Christianity by splintering away from orthodox Judaism.  Still the same god, but now there is a major break from the traditionalists.  Surely you have heard some people refer to themselves as “Christian Jews”?  Mormons believe that Jesus is the messiah and son of god- isn’t that the definition of a Christian?  According to the first definition of “Christian” in my dictionary it is: “one who professes a belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus”.

15. That’s like saying Christianity, Judaism and Islam are basically the same religion because they worship the God of Abraham.  Your digging yourself deeper.  Are we going to say next theism is the only religion?

16. To be honest they are a lot more similar than their adherents would like to believe.  You are basically claiming that which god you worship does not determine what religion you are.  You are focusing on the outer trappings.  By your logic, Protestants and Catholics have different religions.  So which ones are the “true” Christians?  Granted Judaism and its offshoot, Christianity, are fundamentally different than Islam, to the point where they can be considered “different” religions, but Mormons believe that Jesus was the messiah and the son of god which lands them firmly within the definition of “Christian”.  If the belief in Jesus as messiah, etc… does not make one a Christian, what does?  All of the different sects of Christianity have their various trappings and differences, yet their fundamental belief in Jesus as savior, etc… ties them all together.  I will even cede you that Judaism has enough differences from Christianity to be considered a different religion, but Mormons are Christians, no matter how distasteful one might find that fact.  As well, there are many Christians who also consider themselves Jews.  Do a search on “Christian Jews”, there are quite a few out there.  In my mind, it’s all superstitious drivel anyway, but I couldn’t believe that someone would attempt to claim that Mormons are not Christians.  The original quote came from Wikipedia, which is one of the better online encyclopedias.  The only person digging deeper is you because you are still saying that someone who accepts Jesus as his savior is not a Christian.  What then is a Christian?

17. Well, theo, it’s all a matter of definition and standpoint.  I would say that no hard and fast lines can be drawn between a “sect” and a “religion”, but that’s just because I have no truth-content axe to grind here.

    Of course Christianity can reasonably be considered a breakaway sect of Judaism- Jesus was a Jew, and most Christians accept the Old Testament as the Word of God too.

    And I’ll go along with warbi in lumping Judaism, Christianity, and Islam together as one, say, superreligion.  They have a lot of specific mythology in common.  I presume I don’t have to point out the similarities to you, theo, but here’s a quick quote from the Koran:

    ” ‘Behold!’ the angels said: ‘O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him: his name will be Jesus, the son of Mary; held in honor in this world and the hereafter; and (of the company of) those nearest to Allah.” (3:45)

    Because of the eclectic nature of all world religions, trying to draw a hard line between a “sect” and a “religion” is like differentiating between “hills” and “mountains”- useful for some purposes, but arbitrary at best.

18. This is the essentials.  And this is why Mormons aren’t Christian.  The Catholics agree with the essentials so they are not a different religion than the protestants and neither are the Messianic Jews.

    From dictionary.com:
    sect
    n.

      1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
      2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
      3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.

    AS we’ve discussed in other threads before religion, as is my preferred definition, any belief about the supernatural.  Thus religion would be the genus and sect the species.  I would equate a sect more along the lines of a denomination.  Catholicism, Methodism, Lutheranism are all sects of Christianity.

19. Theo- Since you are speaking within Christianity, and I’m speaking without it, I can’t argue with your opinion of what makes someone Christian.  But if Mormons consider themselves Christians, I don’t see why your definition should have precedence over theirs.

    Following the dictionary.com definitions:

    1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
    That’s the Christian sect within the Jewish religion, at least at the beginning.
    2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.  That’s the Christians, Mormons, Bahá’í‘s, etc.
    3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.  That’s Jews, Muslims, and Christians, all believing in the God of Abraham and the Flood, etc.

    It just depends on how picky you are.  Of course, believers need to be picky, and draw those lines as sharp as possible, to keep their faith pure.  For me, it’s hills and mountains.

    As far as equating religion with genus and sect with species- where the lines are drawn in biology is not uncontroversial, either:

    There is a regrettable tendency though to split up vertebrate (especially dinosaurian) genera so that each genus only has a single species – e.g. T. bataar is often called Tarbosaurus, despite being so similar to Tyrannosaurus it is not funny.

    Among taxonomists, there are “lumpers” and “splitters”- ornithologists, for example, are notorious splitters, which is one reason why there are so many bird species.  As far as religion goes, I’m a lumper, you’re a splitter.

    The problem in taxonomy of living things is analogous to the problem in taxonomy of religions and sects- the closer you look, the more distinctions you see, and it’s not at all clear which ones should count, unless you believe in a Final Accounting.  Are Mormons Tarbosaurs, or are they just unfunny Tyrannosaurs?

20. Heh, I’ll give it one more go too, zilch.

    2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.

      Let’s see- Christianity and Islam split from Judaism, so under this interpretation, they could be considered “sects” of Judaism.  Mormonism split from Christianity so it is a sect of Christianity.
      Looking at it with logic:  You have the set- religion.  There is a subset- monotheism.  Within the monotheism subset there is the set of religions whose god is the god of Abraham.  Within the subset of the religions whose god is Abraham, you have the subset of those religions who view Jesus as the savior.  No doubt during Lutheranism’s first years, they were considered apostates.  And who can forget the dire threats issued from the Vatican when the Church of England was formed?

21. Argh, all this talk about what constitutes a Christian makes me think of that Emo Phillips routine …

22. Here is the routine of which Joe spoke:

    I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?” I said, “Well…are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.” I said, “Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?” He said, “Christian.” I said, “Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?” He said, “Baptist!” I said,“Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?” He said, “Baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?” He said,“Reformed Baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?” He said, “Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!” I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off.—Emo Phillips

23. Originally posted by zilch:
    1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
    That’s the Christian sect within the Jewish religion, at least at the beginning.
    2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.  That’s the Christians, Mormons, Bahá’í’s, etc.
    3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.  That’s Jews, Muslims, and Christians, all believing in the God of Abraham and the Flood, etc.

    Christianity is not a subset of Judaism.  Yes they hold the common practice of worshipping the God of Abraham but that does not make it a subset because the Jews follow the Old Testament laws for their salvation and the Christians follow Christ as explained in the essentials.  You must hold all of the beliefs in order to be Christian or Jewish the things beyond the commonalities are not addenda and second priority.  Religion first splits into atheism vs. theism.  From theism you got monotheism and polytheism.  From monotheism you get deism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Satanism, etc.  The Mormons are polytheists.  They are not a subset of Christianity.

    Originally posted by warbi:
    Let’s see- Christianity and Islam split from Judaism, so under this interpretation, they could be considered “sects

24. Just as different versions of The Bible are translated differently by different groups, subgroups of religions will define themselves in a way that suits them best.

25. Yep, Uber, and pretty much every site I have visited lists Mormons as Christians.  For example, here is a listing from adherents.com:

    Major Denominational Families of Christianity
    (This table does not include all Christians. These numbers are estimates, and are here primarily to assist in ranking branches by size, not to provide a definitive count of membership.)
    Branch Number of Adherents
    Catholic 1,050,000,000
    Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000
    African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000
    Pentecostal 105,000,000
    Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000
    Anglican 73,000,000
    Baptist 70,000,000
    Methodist 70,000,000
    Lutheran 64,000,000
    Jehovah’s Witnesses 14,800,000
    Adventist 12,000,000
    Latter Day Saints 12,500,000
    Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
    Stone-Campbell (“Restoration Movement”) 5,400,000
    New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000
    Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000
    Mennonite 1,250,000
    Friends (Quakers) 300,000

      It seems that the only ones who don’t want to consider Mormons Christians, are the fundie types like Catholics, Southern Baptists, et al.

26. And because warbi can’t come up with an intelligent counterargument he plays the bandwagon card.  So what if everyone is wrong?  These tactics sound familiar… disregard logical truth for popular truth.  Careful not to get comfie with the Religious Rights around you while down there.

27. because warbi can’t come up with an intelligent counterargument he plays the bandwagon card.

    Yer kiddin’, right?  What’s at dispute is not a matter of fact, or truth, but of definition.  ie, the consensus about what a word means (the word here being ‘Christian.’).

    The fact that you have an alternative definition does not make Warbi’s reference to the generally accepted definition a ‘bandwagon appeal.’

    I’m not saying that a generally accepted definition can’t be -wrong-.  But citing general consensus, when it comes to the definition of lexical issues, is -not- an example of the ‘bandwagon appeal.’

    [end logic-nazi mode]

28. Actually, I believe that I have delivered several counterarguments based upon logic as opposed to emotion.  Just because you feel that your little superstition is threatened by being lumped with another silly superstition doesn’t make such a grouping wrong.  I have shown how Mormonism fits into Christianity by definition, viz, believeing that Jesus is the savior, etc…  I have also stated that Mormonism has evolved from Christianity.  These are plain facts that are not changed by their rattling your comfortable tiny paradigms and narrow world views.  And, yes, when logic did not deter you, I “played the bandwagon card”.  If 99% of people say the sky is blue, and you claim that it is green, it is still blue.  I go against the grain when I feel it is warranted, but I don’t disagree with majorities just to disagree.  I based my arguments on socio-historic facts.  You have offered only your objections and a link to a Christian Apologist site which is hardly unbiased or a disinterested party.
      BTW, I believe that the Religious Right would be more likely to agree with your interpretation- can’t have any of those “weirdos” associated with good, upstanding Christians now, can we?  Also, you share the same god and “savior”, whilst I tempt damnation with my poor unshriven soul. 

29. Originally posted by nowiser:
    But citing general consensus, when it comes to the definition of lexical issues, is -not- an example of the ‘bandwagon appeal.’

    The average’s person’s ignorance of an issue does not give them the authority to define anything.  Think about this.  You walk up to the average shmoe on the street and they aren’t even aware the authoritarian-libertarian axis exists on the political compass.  The media has brainwashed them to think its a linear scale of conservative versus liberal.  The populace are the least able to define anything.

    Originally posted by warbi:
    I have shown how Mormonism fits into Christianity by definition, viz, believeing that Jesus is the savior, etc… I have also stated that Mormonism has evolved from Christianity.

    That doesn’t automatically make Christianity the genus and Mormonism the species.  You didn’t even attempt to counterargue my polytheism vs. monotheism point.  Your letting me down.

    Originally posted by warbi:
    These are plain facts that are not changed by their rattling your comfortable tiny paradigms and narrow world views.

    Agreed.  They also don’t change how categorically unrelated the two religions are.

    Originally posted by warbi:
    If 99% of people say the sky is blue, and you claim that it is green, it is still blue.

    And if 6 billion people live in the Matrix and agree that it is the ultimate reality that makes the few thousand who live outside it wrong, correct?

    Originally posted by warbi:
    You have offered only your objections and a link to a Christian Apologist site which is hardly unbiased or a disinterested party.

    I forgot.  That makes it automatically wrong doesn’t it?  Don’t be lazy, counterargue the evidence on the site if you are so certain you are right.  It should be easy since it’s biased.

30. [smartass]
    Yeah Warbi, can’t you understand that it’s not 3 separate individual gods making up the trinity, but instead it’s a 3-headed god. 

    In whose image we were created.
    [/smartass]

31. Me cago en la gran puta!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I just lost a half hour+ of typing and research!!!  Man, I am pissed!   Well, I will grab a beer and have a cig and try to reconstruct….

32. ALL of them are a subset of Astrology.

    and without Judaism Christianity would not exist.

33. Okay, let’s try this again!!!

    The average’s person’s ignorance of an issue does not give them the authority to define anything.  Think about this.  You walk up to the average shmoe on the street and they aren’t even aware the authoritarian-libertarian axis exists on the political compass.  The media has brainwashed them to think its a linear scale of conservative versus liberal.  The populace are the least able to define anything.

      One would hope that the writers of dictionaries and encyclopedias are somewhat more erudite than the “average shmoe”.

    That doesn’t automatically make Christianity the genus and Mormonism the species.  You didn’t even attempt to counterargue my polytheism vs. monotheism point.  Your letting me down.

      This is getting a little stale, but I try not to let people down.

      Your apologist site:

    The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it, like any other cult, denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically), Mormonism distorts two of them:  the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.
        Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation.  It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8).  This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time.

      From the official Mormon site:

    Who is Jesus Christ?

    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge.
    Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:2).

    When Jesus lived on the earth (approximately 2,000 years ago), He led a perfect life. He taught by word and example how people should live in love of God and others.

    Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins (1 Peter 2:21) as we follow Him. Because of the Atonement, you can be forgiven of your sins when you sincerely repent (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 26:30).

    Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saved us from death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection (Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22). When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will be the final Judge (Acts 17:31; John 5:21–22; Acts 10:42).

    Christ’s birth

    Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was born approximately 2,000 years ago. Prophets of the Bible (Isaiah 9:6) and the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ (Alma 7:10) foretold the Savior’s birth long before it happened.
    The birth of Jesus Christ, which we celebrate at Christmas, is one of the most significant events in the history of the earth. From the Bible we learn that Jesus was born in a stable to a virgin mother, Mary, that angels announced His birth to shepherds, and that wise men from the East later visited Him. The heavens rejoiced at the coming of the Son of God to the earth. His birth was and is good news for all people, in every age and in every land!

      Gee, it sounds just like a “normal” Christian’s view of Jesus… and they even have references from the Bible!!!  Must be a mistake.

      Apologist site:

    Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is “a” god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5).  See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.

      Your apologist site seems to set great store by this, but a closer examination of the Bible reveals this:

      Luke 23.34: And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

      Luke 23.46: Then Jesus, crying in a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!”

      Now these quotes taken directly from the Bible (Harper Study Bible RVS) seem to imply some sort of separation between father and son.  Either that or Jesus was schizophrenic- too bad they didn’t have Haldol or Thorazine back then.  Also this idera of separation between the father, son, and holy ghost is somewhat middling- like icing on a cake.

    Agreed.  They also don’t change how categorically unrelated the two religions are.

      It seems to me that they are much, much more related than not.  Here is another text from the Mormon site:

    Question:
    Are you Christians?

    Answer:
    Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:
    “We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.”

    “We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior…the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life.”

    “Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement.”

    And if 6 billion people live in the Matrix and agree that it is the ultimate reality that makes the few thousand who live outside it wrong, correct?

      No, you have merely used a sophistic argument by omitting where I said, “I go against the grain when I feel it is warranted, but I don’t disagree with majorities just to disagree.”  If my observations seem to show that the majority is wrong, then I tend to disagree with them.  If it appears that they are correct, then I agree.

    I forgot.  That makes it automatically wrong doesn’t it?  Don’t be lazy, counterargue the evidence on the site if you are so certain you are right.  It should be easy since it’s biased.

      Done- see above.

34. Superior believers rarely stop and consider that they may not be so superior after all. Attitude isn’t pretty.

    The invisible pink elephant has left the building. I repeat: The invisible pink elephant has left the building! Prove me wrong!

35. Brock- which building has the invisible pink elephant left?  I didn’t see no invisible pink elephant leaving my building…

    And if 6 billion people live in the Matrix and agree that it is the ultimate reality that makes the few thousand who live outside it wrong, correct?

    Well, theo, here I agree with you.  We atheists living outside the Matrix can’t console ourselves with dreams of harps (or 72 virgins…), but at least our mindwarping delusions are amenable to reason.

    This is an argument that will go nowhere, because theo is subjecting his system of classification to issues of doctrinal purity, while we heathens are more interested in historical and societal factors.  We consider Mormons to be Christians, based on what they say they believe, and on the way Mormonism branched off Christianity.  Theo obviously wants to save the term “Christian” for those whose belief is congenial to him, or at least not connected with various unsavory practices.

    How about a compromise- we get to say that Mormonism is a subset of Christianity, which is a subset of Judaism, but thereby construe no conceits about which set of beliefs is “right”.  Theo gets to say that Mormons are not his kind of Christians, and that our “subsets” carry no taint of retroactive propogation of heresy.  Now everyone’s happy !

36. How about a compromise- we get to say that Mormonism is a subset of Christianity, which is a subset of Judaism, but thereby construe no conceits about which set of beliefs is “right

37. That is kidnapping, mental abuse, negligence, and suspected sexual assault, lock these mother fuckers up.

    I just have to ask the government how it puts up with this shit, but it’d be pointless, because not only should they be tolderated because they’re a seperat ereligion, but the odds are ten-to-one that their superior’s superiors or further up the chain are backed by the vatican, the government, or some other party who relishes in the idea of slaying hope in this world.

    I just hope I see at least the Mormon’s demise in this lifetime.

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