Clif Garboden says, “Screw You, America!”

Go read Screw you, America: Sometimes the fish in the barrel deserve to die by Clif Garboden. It pretty much sums up my feelings on Bush’s winning a second term and is pratically SEB in a nutshell. The first sentence in the following paragraph is what cinched it for me, though:

A lot of us effete Easterners want to know: What the fuck is wrong with you?! You voted against your self-interest at every turn (you dumb-asses in South Dakota deserve special credit for voting out one of the most powerful Democrats in the Senate) and re-elected an ignorant cowboy who can’t be trusted to remember a lunch order, never mind run a country. What in the name of God…?! Wait, it was in the name of God, wasn’t it? Rendered weak and ignorant by a spoon-fed climate of fear, you slack-jawed inbred flatlanders have sought refuge in the traditional twin towers of mindlessness—jingoistic patriotism and fundamentalist religion. God’s on your side. Like hell. Jesus loves us, dammit.

Okay, you want God? Let’s talk about God. Your religion is bogus. Fundamentalism, the facile belief in the unexplained and un-researched, is something you born-agains (couldn’t get it right the first time, huh?) share with Al Qaeda, whose ideologues doggedly adhere to religious misinterpretations every bit as silly and dangerous as yours. Just like you, Muslim fundamentalists long to impose an unrealistic and intolerant pseudo-Calvinist morality on the world. In fact, America’s religious right has so much in common with the Shiah, it’s a wonder you guys don’t invite them to join the Rotary. Born-againsters look for the face of Christ in the wallpaper; fundamentalist Muslims hallucinate the voice of the 12th Imam; but aside from that (and extremely divergent attitudes toward pork), you both hate the same stuff—homosexuality, pacifism, Jews, education, uppity women, enlightenment, short skirts, gangsta rap, tattoos, infidels. … (They also share your love of super-lethal weaponry.)

Well, sorry to burst your holy bubble, Jesus freaks, but God did not create the world in seven days; that’s just ignorant. Like a lot of stuff in the Bible, it didn’t happen. And Moses looked more like Jeff Goldblum than like Charlton Heston. Jesus didn’t hunt; he fished. Jesus wouldn’t want you (or anyone else) to have an assault rifle. What would Jesus do if he met you? He’d ask you to stop ruining his hard-won good reputation. (Y’know the guy died to redeem your sorry ass; you might at least show a little respect for what he was really about.)

It’s a long read, but I couldn’t have written it better myself. It even manages to make my fondness for swearing seem tame in comparison.

103 thoughts on “Clif Garboden says, “Screw You, America!”

  1. It does read as eerily familiar

    What the fuck is wrong with you?!

    I did enjoy it, sometimes a no-holds barred rant can brighten up your day, this one certainly did.

  2. It’s gotta get worse before it gets better. Only when enough people wake up will we begin to recover from this national psychosis…..

    A man who won’t account for his whereabouts during a time of war (when men were being drafted) is considered “pro-military”. His opponent, who voluntarily went into battle and still carries shrapnel is considered “anti-military”. We invaded a country that wasn’t a threat, didn’t have WMDs, had no role in 9/11…. And Osama been forgotten.

    It’s kind that the rest of the world only considers us obese.

  3. Osama hasn’t been completely forgotten. On the news this morning they said that the bounty on his head has been doubled to $50 million and they’re doing an advertising blitz in Afghanistan and Pakistan in hopes someone’s greed will overcome their sense of loyalty.

  4. Oh c’mon Clif! Tell us how you really feel!  This one is a must read.  Warning! those on the right should swallow a gravol or two before opening.

    You’re right decrepitoldfool.  Now we’re talking some real bling!  I’ll have his coordinates emailed to the authorities right away!

  5. I am not too sure if this has been mentioned before but the survey where it was stated that 21% of the people felt “values” was their top concern is misleading.

    The reason is because in comparison to previous elections that figure is low. It was around 40% during late 1980s and about 30% during Clinton’s time.

  6. A man who won’t account for his whereabouts during a time of war (when men were being drafted) is considered “pro-military

  7. That was wonderful, and quite cathartic. It almost perfectly sums up what I very much WANT to say to alot of the slack-jawed Religious Wrong who think they own the fucking country, but damn that PC getting in the way… smirk Ahhh, therapeutic!

  8. My comment just disappeared so I will say only this.
    DON’T TRY TO SAVE ME BECAUSE WHEN I DIE I WILL JUST ROT AWAY. BUT DO TRY TO SAVE THIS GREAT NATION WITH CLEAR, FAIR, AND INTELLIGENT MINDS NOT PEOPLE WHO THINK ONLY GOD AND JESUS KNOW THE WAY. WE ARE GOING TO LOSE EVERYTHING WE HAVE GAINED IF YOU DON’T WAKE UP AND ACT QUICKLY!

  9. Being a New Zealander who has been to the USA, I keep a close eye on CNN, and it always amazes me as to who gets airtime.  One report, which was on BBC, showed a reporter question 16-17 year old high school students.  In Texas.  Much to my dismay, none were dis-appointed that Mr Bush was re-elected.  One went so far as to say that he was estatic, and that he hoped that Bush, as a God-Fearing man, would help to ‘bring faith back into Americans lives.’  What a ceramic container of excrement.  I’m happy to say that NZ has yet to reach such extremes, but we’re getting there, thanks to the Destiny Church.  Modelled on the best televangelists America has to offer, it is the vehicle for one man to push his homophobic and bigoted views.  Thankfully, the Density (sic) Church has been banned from hiring out the Wellington High School hall, because students signed a petitionsaying they didn’t agree with the bile being spilled there.  Big ups to them.  Hopefully I can pirate the TV3 signal in the morning and screen ‘The Ackercocke Hour, with Anton la Vey’s former janitor’ in place of their load of wank.  Tips anyone?

  10. Yes, it was a nice cathartic rant, but I must say I take umbrage at Garboden’s characterization of saw sharpeners as being possum-breathed.  I am a saw sharpener, at least sometimes, and I am not possum-breathed.  At least I don’t see how I could be, never having eaten or frenchkissed a Native American Marsupial in my life.

    By the way, I might mention here, not that I want to condone or contribute to thread drift (this is what happens when I drink two beers- take note!) that marsupials actually evolved in North America, spread around the world, and subsequently died out everywhere, except in Australia and environs, outgunned by the eutherian mammals, with the exception of the canny and admirable opposum and its kin.

    Other than that, I’d say Garboden was pretty fair and evenhanded.

  11. Well, it wouldn’t be a left-wing post-mortem of the 2004 elections without blaming the voters for “getting it wrong

  12. Let’s get this straight.

    Okay.

    By a tiny margins, voters got it wrong and the Democratic Party is partially to blame for not helping the voters to make the right decision.

    Given that the ongoing war in Iraq was started under false pretenses, Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, the tortured torture memos, and so on, it is debatable who the bloody murderers and butchers in Iraq are. The US never had the moral high ground in the first place and it has been going downhill from there. The woman on Oklahoma is not the moral equivalent of any combatant party in Iraq, but if she voted for Bush she is complicit with the war and its full ramifications.

    Personally, I couldn’t care less about Bush’s speeches – his actions speak louder any day.

    Do I feel ashamed about agreeing with the sentiments expressed by the rant? No.

  13. The man who eats meat is on the same moral level as the butcher.  Doesn’t matter if the butcher uses a car bomb or a cruise missile.

    Something odd occurred to me this morning.  We can fight a legal battle for years over the fate of a comotose woman in Florida (as Jeb Bush has done) because we’re not comfortable with taking life to end suffering.  Then we just shrug over collateral damage – you know, people?  in Iraq because we feel like we’re reducing the suffering of the Iraqi people.

    Sure, Garboden’s rant was over-the-top.  And it did brighten my day.  No, I wouldn’t confirm Garboden as secretary of state but he isn’t running for the job.

    Yes, I do hate Bush&co, because I believe they have made us less secure with this distraction in Iraq and by alienating our allies.  We aren’t going to beat terrorism by telling the rest of the world to take a hike. 

    When some dirty bomb goes off in Boston it will be because some terrorist was able to find innumerable hiding places in a world fed up with American arrogance.  We are making enemies faster than we are killing them.

    Yes, the voters “got it wrong.”  If you don’t agree with me, fine; I don’t expect you to.  But that’s my assessment.

  14. The Butchers of Baghdad who have killed thousands of their countrymen and women.  Who would rather burn Iraq to the ground than let it elect its leaders.  Who want the Westerners to leave so they can get down to the business of exterminating their fellow Muslims.  Those people are morally equivalent to George W. Bush, who said this one week after Sept 11th:

    “We’re in a fight for our principles and our first responsibility is to live by them. No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith.

  15. You agreed with him.  This is how you see the world.  Does that make you ashamed?

    Not in the least. For many Fundamentalists here there would be little compunction to taking up similar methods to their counterparts over there if they thought they could get away with it and you know that as well as I do. Your attempt to paint all fundamentalists as innocent little old ladies is laughable in light of some of the emails I’ve received over the years.

  16. Speaking as an both an effete Easterner and one of those born-agains, I think you guys on the Left need to rethink your plan to stop the Democrats from hemorrhaging voters.

    Here are some free lessons on better ways to stop the bleeding:

    Lesson 1: Don’t be apologists to militant Islam

    This lesson is provided by Christopher Hitchens, liberal, atheist and after 9/11 a non-apologist:

    So here is what I want to say on the absolutely crucial matter of secularism. Only one faction in American politics has found itself able to make excuses for the kind of religious fanaticism that immediately menaces us in the here and now. And that faction, I am sorry and furious to say, is the left. From the first day of the immolation of the World Trade Center, right down to the present moment, a gallery of pseudointellectuals has been willing to represent the worst face of Islam as the voice of the oppressed. How can these people bear to reread their own propaganda? Suicide murderers in Palestine—disowned and denounced by the new leader of the PLO—described as the victims of “despair.” The forces of al-Qaida and the Taliban represented as misguided spokespeople for antiglobalization. The blood-maddened thugs in Iraq, who would rather bring down the roof on a suffering people than allow them to vote, pictured prettily as “insurgents” or even, by Michael Moore, as the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers. If this is liberal secularism, I’ll take a modest, God-fearing, deer-hunting Baptist from Kentucky every time, as long as he didn’t want to impose his principles on me (which our Constitution forbids him to do).

    http://slate.com/id/2109377/

    Lesson 2: Economics

    I’ve read Thomas Frank’s “What’s the matter with Kansas”, the leading book in the “dumb hicks voting against their own self-interest” meme, and I’m astonished to find that there are still people who believe that unions, stronger government regulations of industry, higher marginal tax rates, and the nationalization of more businesses is somehow good for the economy in general or the working man in particular.

    I don’t want to be accused of arguing a straw men, so I won’t mention the Soviet Union except to point out that even liberals have to concede that the dose-response curve of the “benefits” of these leftist economic is not a linear one.

    For a more relevent non-strawman example I’ll use Europe. As reported in The Atlantic:

    A minor blurb in The Atlantic:

    If the European Union were a U.S. state, it would rank forty-seventh in per capita GDP, according to a report from Timbro, a Swedish free-market think tank. (Yes, there really is one.) In annual income the average European is on a par with residents of Mississippi, West Virginia, and Arkansas. (And the report excludes the newer, poorer EU nations of Eastern Europe.) The picture isn’t much rosier even in wealthier European states like France and Britain, both of which have per capita GDPs slightly lower than Alabama’s. Only tiny Luxembourg scores better than the American average.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200409/primarysources

    I could go on, in particular about the results of how low birthrates are hurting everything from social security to unemployment, but picking on Europe is like clubbing baby seals. Suffice it to say, the US should not start following their example. I fully expect that as Muslim immigration increases (stressing social welfare services) and as the native population both ages and declines in nuber that Europe will get on it’s hands and knees, admit the errors of it’s ways, and start emulating the US.

    Here’s another free lesson in family values, from a Christian. Do you know what the number one cause of black urban poverty is? Think about it for a second. This is important. I don’t want to tell you right away because I want the answer to sink in.

    The number one cause of black urban poverty is breakdown of the family. Single mothers, step-families, live-in boyfriends. They are all destructive. There are, as always, exceptions, but for the black community to break the cycle of poverty they need marriage.

    This is a fact that we’ve known since 1965 when a Democrat, Daniel Patrick Moynihan commissioned a study called ‘The Negro Family: a case for national action’, or more simply ‘The Moynihan Report’. Google the title, you’ll find a lot of good reading.

    Moynihan was pilloried by the Left for speaking the truth. The Left would rather believe the lie that racism and underfunded social programs are the primary cause of black poverty rather than the truth.

    Since Moynihan’s report in 1965 the rate of out-of-wedlock childbirths in the black community has more than doubled. As one black civil rights leader put it “When America catches a cold black America catches pneumonia” and this cold that America has caught is a result of the 50 year feminist attack on marriage.

    This is a direct result of the liberals attempt to recreate family. The book that got the modern feminist movement started, The Feminine Mysique by Betty Freidan, referred to marriage as a ‘comfortable concentration camp’. Later feminists compared marraige to slavery and felt that communities of single mothers forming temporary relationships with men would be healthier. They were instrumental in the creation of the no-fault divorce laws that led to the skyrocketing divorce rate of the 70s and 80s. The current third wave of “sex-positive” feminists are more moderate towards marriage, but they also believe in empowering women and “reclaiming” the word slut.

    On a personal level, my wife teaches at an inner-city middle school that is 99% minority. She’s the best teacher in the school, btw, ask her principle or ask her students. Not a teacher in the school doubts that most of the girls will get knocked up and drop out before they graduate high school. So if you want to celebrate a lifestyle of sexual permissiveness, go ahead. Just don’t pretend you are making the world a better place while you do it.

  17. Everyone above me has said all the good stuff.  My answer to you then Daryl would have to be a no. 

    Trying to disect this rant and fit the square peg is so completely conterproductive.  Garboden’s rant, as far as I can tell, did not suggested that the little old lady you describe was similar in the way you paint it.  But sophistry is the MO of the right.  Suggest a big theory with a spec of evidence, pass it off as a cogent argument, and…we’re done.  Apparently, a narrow world view has an effect of skewing comprehension.

  18. Justin, speaking of straw-man arguments… no on here is an apologist for militant Islamists.  Trying to understand where someone is coming from is not an attempt to excuse their actions.

    Why understand?  Because it will help us to use our limited resources in the most effective way.  At the very least, it will help us shoot at the right people, and it may even reduce the number of bullets we “need” to fire.

    For that matter, if you look closely, not everyone who is against the war (and Bush) is even a “lefty.”  Pat Buchannan, for one example.  Or don’t you read The American Conservative?

  19. Daryl, you’re an idiot making idiotic assumptions.

    Nowhere have I written that I agreed with Garbodens rant, what I did write was that I enjoyed it. I don’t need to agree with someone to enjoy their writing.

  20. Clif Garboden doesn’t see any difference between a woman who lives in Oklahoma, goes to Church every Sunday, and volunteers at the VFW—and the bloodthirsty murderers in Iraq who declared “War on Democracy

  21. Justin, you’re late. Daryl already hit us with those same arguments in another thread. Didn’t convince anyone then and is unlikely to now either. Not sure why the hell you brought up inner city black family problems other than as a means to try and claim a moral superiority for your conservative mindset. It had nothing to do with the topic of the original rant.

  22. …picking on Europe is like clubbing baby seals. Suffice it to say, the US should not start following their example.

    Justin, which example do you mean?  The source you quote comparing the per capita GDP of European countries to that of US states is typical feelgood stuff, and revealing of what matters most to you conservatives: money.

    To me, quality of life is a more important measure to compare than number of dollars, and I’m quite willing to settle for less “wealth” to get, here in Austria:
    – decent schools
    – real public transportation
    – much lower crime rates
    – universal health care
    – no homelessness
    – environmental protection, tax bonuses for alternative energy
    – and not creating enemies faster than we can kill them.

    Of course, if behaving more and more like a survivalist in a hidey hole (“I’ve got mine, and I’ll shoot anyone who gets too close”) is your idea the good life, then America is going in the right direction for you.

  23. Justin says:

    I could go on, in particular about the results of how low birthrates are hurting everything from social security to unemployment

      I don’t understand how this makes any sense – surely low birthrates would mean unemployment levels would fall, as their are fewer people to be eventually unemployed (except maybe for midwives)?

    Also:

    Here’s another free lesson in family values, from a Christian. Do you know what the number one cause of black urban poverty is? Think about it for a second. This is important. I don’t want to tell you right away because I want the answer to sink in.

    You’ve immediately made me hostile to anything you have to say by sounding like a smug, patronising git.

  24. Mental Note To Self: Add Missy to the list of people who’s comments I shouldn’t read while trying to drink hot coffee.

    Now if you’ll pardon me, I need to go change my shirt and get some paper towels to clean off my monitor. wink

  25. You’ve immediately made me hostile to anything you have to say by sounding like a smug, patronising git.

    Indeed.

    The number one cause of black urban poverty is breakdown of the family.

    And the number one cause of black urban breakdown of the family is poverty?

  26. Heh, revenge is sweet.

    Many times my fellow research students have had concerns for my sanity due to sudden spurts of laughter from my corner while reading this blog.

  27. The number one cause of black urban poverty is breakdown of the family.(…)
    This is a direct result of the liberals attempt to recreate family.

    So let me get this straight, Justin. Betty Frieden is responsible for black urban poverty? Hmmm… somehow this doesn’t seem logical to me.  But maybe that’s just because I’m a liberal.  Still, I don’t quite understand why the feminist destruction of the institution of marriage didn’t hit urban whites too- did only blacks read “The Feminine Mystique”, or rush to get quickie divorces?  Or maybe the uppity feminists are responsible for all poverty?

    In any case, I somehow doubt (pessimist that I am) that simply making divorce harder would keep families together.  After all, married men can and do run off too, and people can have kids without getting married.  My kids can corroborate that.  But then again, this is the standard conservative reaction to something they don’t like: make a law against it.  Doesn’t always work for some reason.

    As to why black families in America are more likely to fall apart than white, I will take the standard knee-jerk liberal position: racism spanning generations, that prevents full participation in the society; leading to hopelessness and poverty.  My mom taught in ghetto schools in Richmond, California, and my high school was on the “other side of the tracks”, so this is not just a “theoretical” position of mine.

    Instead of attacking feminists, who are responsible for a good deal of what differentiates American (and European) society from Muslim society, you’d do better to fight racism and poverty, with education and jobs.

  28. Les said:

    Justin, you’re late. Daryl already hit us with those same arguments in another thread. Didn’t convince anyone then and is unlikely to now either.

    Of course Daryl’s points didn’t convince you. You really do believe that Christians in America are identical to the Muslims in the Taliban. This is a good counter-example to the theory going around in liberal circles that Democrats can win voters by articulating their point more forcefully. Instead Democrats would be better served by withholding what they really believe from the American public.

    Not sure why the hell you brought up inner city black family problems other than as a means to try and claim a moral superiority for your conservative mindset. It had nothing to do with the topic of the original rant.

    i brought up the point to rebut part of ‘Screw You America’ article:

    you both hate the same stuff—homosexuality, pacifism, Jews, education, uppity women, enlightenment, short skirts, gangsta rap, tattoos, infidels. … (They also share your love of super-lethal weaponry.)

    I’m not sure where he gets the hatred of Jews part, since anti-semitism is largely confined to the Left.  Overall that quote was an attack on Christian family values. We may be oppossed to ‘uppity women, enlightenment, short skirts, gangsta rap’ but there is a good reason for doing so, and that reason is family.

    Breakdown of the family is the number one cause of black urban poverty.

    Missy said:

    Missy
    ——-
    I don’t understand how this makes any sense – surely low birthrates would mean unemployment levels would fall, as their are fewer people to be eventually unemployed (except maybe for midwives)?

    As far as unemployment, Europe has notoriously strong job protection laws. As with most regulations, they have an opposite effect from what was intended. Because it is so difficult to fire people European countries are extremely reluctant to hire people. They would rather divert that capital into technology that raises productivity than hire new employees. This also means that the young bear the brunt of the unemployment problem in Europe. With an old worker you are making a 10-20 year committment. With young workers you are making a 20-30 year committment.

    Michael Moore made a lot of money with ‘Downsize This!’ but even after all that downsizing America has a much lower unemployment rate than Europe. That is because our businesses are more competitive and have fewer job-protection laws.

    Of course, the unemployment problem is nothing compared to the health care and social security problem that falling birthrates are creating in Europe… hint: pay as you go systems are generational transfers of wealth, and that does not work with declining birth rates.

  29. ’m not sure where he gets the hatred of Jews part, since anti-semitism is largely confined to the Left. 

    Yeah, damn those commie pinko Klansmen …

    Overall that quote was an attack on Christian family values. We may be oppossed to ‘uppity women, enlightenment, short skirts, gangsta rap’ but there is a good reason for doing so, and that reason is family.

    Wow.  Women with equal rights don’t create families?  Enlightened men and women don’t make solid families?  Short skirts don’t prompt men to want to start families? wink 

    Okay, I haven’t really heard a family-oriented “gangsta rap” song, all mentions of “brother,” “mother-,” “daddy” and “sistah” aside.  Unless you count Weird Al Yankovic’s “Amish Paradise.”  You got me there.

    The right wing is clearly ANTI-family, as they put unbearable restrictions on women that, combined with postpartum psychosis, lead to the murder of children.  And they are clearly anti-family because they want to prevent 10% of our population from forming families.

  30. You really do believe that Christians in America are identical to the Muslims in the Taliban.

    By “identical”, Justin, do you mean “the same people”?  That would explain a lot…  But you’re right.  We Democrats had better hide the true source of our campaign funds from the voters, or we’ll lose the election for sure.  Oh yeah- we lost already.  That sure was a cheap trick, freezing Bin Laden’s assets…
    Missy, I’ll go along with you.  If it walks like a git, and quacks like a git…

  31. …it definitely is a git. Notice how Justin’s argument is strictly attitudinal—he makes absolutely no attempts whatsoever to back it up with anything valid (your religious mythologies are not valid argument material, Justin sweetie). Not surprising, though; when has the Reich…uh, I mean Right…ever been able to adequately defend their unreasonable and obselete demands? Never, to my knowledge.

    Yeah, damn those commie pinko Klansmen …

    LOL

  32. Justin blathered: “You really do believe that Christians in America are identical to the Muslims in the Taliban.”

    No we don’t Justin; we believe you don’t realize that’s the direction you’re headed.  It all seems reasonable to you because it has the Goddd stamp of approval, and your religious vehicle has a tiny windshield and no side windows.  (And a fun-house mirror for rear view.)

  33. Yeah, damn those commie pinko Klansmen …

    You mean the Democratic Senator and former KKK member Robert Bird? Or the Republican wannabe David Duke?

    Let me be very clear and explicit for disavowing all politicians with ties to the KKK, both Democrats or Republicans. Can you do the same to Noam Chomsky and the “Zionism=Racism” crowd?

    Okay, I haven’t really heard a family-oriented “gangsta rap

  34. Children need to be raised by their biological parents who have made a lifelong loving committment to each other. Anything less is just not fair to the children.

    My God, Justin’s even more of an idealist than I am!

    Which world are you living in that this was the way it was before feminism? Yes, divorce rates are much higher than they were, but do you honestly believe that poverty, abuse, and neglect didn’t exist before divorce became common? Teenage girls never got pregnant? Fathers never left their families, and women never had to bring up the cildren on a pittance?

    These things happened, they were just never talked about. Girls were sent off “to visit their aunt”, and forced to give up their babies. 2 biological parents staying together for life didn’t prevent physical and sexual abuse by husbands and fathers; women were ordered by their priests to stay with their husbands no matter what… violence, abuse, none of these were good enough reasons to get a divorce.

    (Nostalgic sigh)…yes, those were the days.

  35. Which world are you living in that this was the way it was before feminism? Yes, divorce rates are much higher than they were, but do you honestly believe that poverty, abuse, and neglect didn’t exist before divorce became common?

    You are right in that I am an idealist! And no, we won’t completely eliminate poverty if our society can achieve lower divorce rates, but lower divorce rates are the single most powerful tool we have to reduce child poverty, so I think that makes it important.

    violence, abuse, none of these were good enough reasons to get a divorce.

    The rate of domestic violence in single cohabitating couples is approximately 10 times as high as married couples. Cohabitating couples also have much higher rates of alcoholism, drug use, and infedility. This is true even when you account for selection bias. I can provide references if you want, but anyone can get them by simply googling the appropriate keywords.

    However, let me clarify my position. I would like to eliminate the no-fault divorce laws. That doesn’t mean I want to eliminate divorce for abuse or adultury.

  36. It’s funny that the left is so anti-semitic, yet the majority of American Jews continue to vote democratic. I guess they’re just overcome with a crippling case of collective Reichstalgie. Or maybe Justin is suggesting, as so many conservatives have before him, that Jews WOULD vote conservative if they only realized how much better for them the conservatives would be! They just can’t figure it out! Nope, nothing anti-semitic there! And how do we KNOW that the left is the true enemy of world Jewry? Because they like that evil-antisemite Noam Chomsky! What’s that you say? Chomsky’s a what?

  37. Justin – folks like you are the reason I’m embarrassed when I have to admit that many of my political beliefs are conservative.

    I hope a bunch of “uppity women” come along and kick you right in your moral superior balls….

  38. Children need to be raised by their biological parents who have made a lifelong loving committment to each other. Anything less is just not fair to the children.

    I absolutely agree—so let’s let gays marry and raise their biological children in peace, shall we?

  39. Let me be very clear and explicit for disavowing all politicians with ties to the KKK, both Democrats or Republicans. Can you do the same to Noam Chomsky and the “Zionism=Racism

  40. Justin opines…

    Of course Daryl’s points didn’t convince you. You really do believe that Christians in America are identical to the Muslims in the Taliban.

    Let’s be more specific: I really do think that Fundamentalist Christians, which is a subgroup of the Christian whole, are very much like the Taliban in many respects, which is a subset of the Muslim whole. Just as I recognize that the Radical Islamists are not representative of all Muslims I also recognize that the Fundamentalist Christians are not representative of all Christians. There are plenty of people in both faiths that I have absolutely no problems with mainly because they are content to get on with their lives and allow me to get on with mine without too much interference.

    By the same token, I find the growing spread of Christians Fundamentalism just as alarming as the spread of Radical Islam. In the past Daryl has attempted to use the specter of Radical Islamists out to take over the world as scare tactic to suggest it’s in my interest to support Christian Fundamentalists who appear to have a similar agenda presumably on the basis that it’s always better to side with the more familiar evil. From where I’m standing it’s just two sides of the same bad penny.

    This is a good counter-example to the theory going around in liberal circles that Democrats can win voters by articulating their point more forcefully. Instead Democrats would be better served by withholding what they really believe from the American public.

    I disagree with your assessment. Bush won by three lousy percentage points: 50.8% to 48.3% with roughly 1% going to Nader. Why do you conservatives continue to insist Bush won by some overwhelming amount that somehow shows that the Democrats are out of touch and should hide what they really believe? Nearly half the people who voted cast their ballot for the Democratic candidate. Hardly a sign that the Democrats need to hide what they really believe. If anything I’d hazard a guess that trepidation over changing Presidents during a war had more to do with Bush’s win than rejection of Democratic/Liberal beliefs did.

    The mistake of Bush’s father appears to be that he didn’t keep the gulf war going through his reelection campaign.

    I’m not sure where he gets the hatred of Jews part, since anti-semitism is largely confined to the Left.

    Is it now? That’s news to me. I’m assuming you’re making reference to the fact that many Liberals do not express complete and unwavering support of Israel against the Palestinians, as many Conservatives tend to, and even go as far as to criticize the country for their tactics in the struggle. That’s the argument put forth by Phyllis Chesler in her book The New Anti-Semitism at least.

    I always find that charge pretty amusing in light of the fact that for many Christian Fundamentalists the unwavering support they have for Israel is based more on their belief in Biblical prophecy than on the idea that the Jews are innocent victims of unwarranted Arab aggression.

      For Christian Zionists, the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God’s covenant with Abraham and the center of His action from now to the Second Coming of Christ and final battle of Armageddon, when the Antichrist will be defeated. But before this can occur, they say, biblical prophecy foretells the return of Jews from other countries; Israel’s possession of all the land between the Euphrates and Nile rivers; and the rebuilding of the Jewish temple where a Muslim site, Dome of the Rock, now stands.

      These beliefs lead to positions that critics say are uncompromising and ignore the fact that most Israelis want peace. “Pressuring the US government away from peace negotiations and toward an annexationist policy, that has a direct negative impact on the potential for change in the Middle East,” says Gershom Gorenberg, a senior editor at The Jerusalem Report newsmagazine.—Mixing prophecy and politics—The Christian Science Monitor

    Conservative support for Israel is more about their own delusional self-interests than any desire to defeat anti-Semitism.

    Overall that quote was an attack on Christian family values. We may be oppossed to ‘uppity women, enlightenment, short skirts, gangsta rap’ but there is a good reason for doing so, and that reason is family.

    Breakdown of the family is the number one cause of black urban poverty.

    Are you sure you’ve read the Moynihan Report? Or have you only read what your fellow Conservatives have had to say about it? I’m guessing the latter as your claim at the end here is a reversal of one of the root causes of family breakdown listed in the report.

    It is an excellent report, by the way, but none of the things you listed as being “bad” for families is cited as contributing to the breakdown of black families in the report. The root problems, according to the report, start with the impact of American Slavery and it’s dehumanizing influence where blacks were treated as little more than chattel and families were broken up and sold without so much as a second thought. From there it cites The Reconstruction and the emergence of Jim Crow laws, Urbanization, Unemployment and Poverty, and The Wage System. I find that last bit particularly interesting as it points to other countries as having a better wage system than America which contradicts your earlier advice that we shouldn’t look to other countries for examples of how we should handle our economics:

      The American wage system is conspicuous in the degree to which it provides high incomes for individuals, but is rarely adjusted to insure that family, as well as individual needs are met. Almost without exception, the social welfare and social insurance systems of other industrial democracies provide for some adjustment or supplement of a worker’s income to provide for the extra expenses of those with families. American arrangements do not, save for income tax deductions.

      The Federal minimum wage of $1.25 per hour provides a basic income for an individual, but an income well below the poverty line for a couple, much less a family with children.

    Getting back to your claim that the breakdown of the family is the number one cause of black urban poverty, I’ll simply point out that the report you keep tossing out as proof of your claim does, in fact, contradict it:

      The impact of poverty on Negro family structure is no less obvious, although again it may not be widely acknowledged. There would seem to be an American tradition, agrarian in its origins but reinforced by attitudes of urban immigrant groups, to the effect that family morality and stability decline as income and social position rise. Over the years this may have provided some consolation to the poor, but there is little evidence that it is true. On the contrary, higher family incomes are unmistakably associated with greater family stability—which comes first may be a matter for conjecture, but the conjunction of the two characteristics is unmistakable.

      The Negro family is no exception. In the District of Columbia, for example, census tracts with median incomes over $8,000 had an illegitimacy rate one-third that of tracts in the category under $4,000.

    You’ve got it backwards it would seem, at least according to the very report you keep waving around, and as much as I looked for it I could find nothing in the report that suggested uppity women, enlightenment, short skirts, and gangsta rap had any role to play in the breakdown of any family let alone black urban families.

    So while I don’t disagree with the Moynihan Report in any significant fashion, I fail to see how it supports your claims. Try reading it next time.

    As far as unemployment, Europe has notoriously strong job protection laws. As with most regulations, they have an opposite effect from what was intended. Because it is so difficult to fire people European countries are extremely reluctant to hire people. They would rather divert that capital into technology that raises productivity than hire new employees. This also means that the young bear the brunt of the unemployment problem in Europe. With an old worker you are making a 10-20 year commitment. With young workers you are making a 20-30 year committment.

    It would be really nice to see something that supports that claim. Despite the lack of such stringent laws here I don’t see any diminishment in the enthusiasm to invest capital into technology that raises productivity by American companies. If anything the ease in which the American worker can be fired just provides incentive for companies to move their jobs to India. All that the lack of stringent job protection laws guarantees for American workers is that their company is free to dump them should they find a more profitable way to do business.

    Michael Moore made a lot of money with ‘Downsize This!’ but even after all that downsizing America has a much lower unemployment rate than Europe. That is because our businesses are more competitive and have fewer job-protection laws.

    Again, it would be nice if you’d cite something to back that claim up.

    Of course, the unemployment problem is nothing compared to the health care and social security problem that falling birthrates are creating in Europe… hint: pay as you go systems are generational transfers of wealth, and that does not work with declining birth rates.

    Ditto.

    You mean the Democratic Senator and former KKK member Robert Bird? Or the Republican wannabe David Duke?

    I love how you qualify David Duke as the “Republican wannabe” while listing Robert Byrd as a Democratic Senator. As I recall, David Duke was a Republican State Senator in Louisiana. In 1990 he made an unsuccessful bid for the U.S. Senate in which he managed to land 43.5 percent of the vote. Indeed, Byrd was a Klansman in his youth for a short while, but dropped out almost a decade prior to taking up politics without ever going very far in the organization. Whereas the “Republican wannabe” only tried to shed his association just before he decided to run for office. In addition to being a Grand Wizard in the KKK for awhile, Duke established the National Association for the Advancement of White People.

    Regardless of your attempt to try and muddy the waters, the fact remains that the average Klansman is more likely to be a Conservative than a Liberal and a Republican than a Democrat.

    Let me be very clear and explicit for disavowing all politicians with ties to the KKK, both Democrats or Republicans. Can you do the same to Noam Chomsky and the “Zionism=Racism

  41. Yep, that’s what I love about Conservatives: Rather than work on educating people on why healthy marriages are important and how to ensure you end up in one, their solution to the problem of divorce is to restrict your freedom further by removing it as an option unless you’re getting the crap beat out of you or cheated on.

    Not to nit pick a wonderful and well reasones post too much, but I do object to the across the board qualification on conservatives. I insist that only applies to some of us. I consider myself Libertarian, not Republican, but that is still a conservative philosophy, and I certainly don’t agree with anything Justin has said….

  42. Actually, I’m as much a Libertarian as a Liberal myself (check my political compass score in the sidebar). I don’t consider Libertarian a particularly Conservative philosophy. It’s more of a “leave me the fuck alone and I’ll leave you the fuck alone” philosophy which tends to conflict with most Conservative approaches of “let’s pass a law so they have to do it our way whether they want to or not.”

  43. Bush won by three lousy percentage points: 50.8% to 48.3% with roughly 1% going to Nader.

    As a sidenote, I’ve come to a really depressing conclusion in regards to presidential politics, regardless of what side of the aisle you happen to be on. Consider this: Aprox. 45% of the country will vote Democrat, no matter what. Another 45% will vote Republican. That leaves the rough 10% known as swing voters. There are all sorts of theories as to why swing voters break the way they do, but I’ve come to believe that they vote for the guy they’d most like to sit down and have a beer or watch a football game with. The most affable, regular guy. Look back at the previous elections…

    Bush VS Kerry – Bush is more likable
    Bush VS Gore – Bush is more likable
    Clinton VS Dole – Clinton is obviously more likable
    Clinton VS Bush – Again, Clinton more likable
    Bush VS Dukakis – Bush wins easily, Dukakis was odd
    Reagan VS Mondale
    Reagan VS Carter
    Carter VS Ford

    It plays out that way as far back as my memory goes.

    We’re doomed….

  44. Justin,
    You are the king of making shit up and misdirection.

    Corelation does not mean causation.

    You use the same logic as all those people who want us to link 9/11 to the Iraq war. Arabs blew up our towers, there are Arabs in Iraq, lets us attack Iraq.

    Don’t you get tired of repeating the same bullshit and lies that are driven into your head?

    For example:

    I could go on, in particular about the results of how low birthrates are hurting everything from social security to unemployment

    How is this related? I get tired of hearing the same bullshit lies that our Government keeps spouting about the aging Babyboomers and why we can’t afford social security. These people already paid for thier social secuirty, the government misspent it, that is why there is none left, not because baby boomers didn’t have enough kids.

    I’m not sure where he gets the hatred of Jews part, since anti-semitism is largely confined to the Left.

    Oh yeah, did you also know that the penis of average liberal male tends to be 1” longer then that of the conservative male?

    Where did you come up with that? As far as I have ever understood, the left is about equality and freedom for everyone… not anti-semitism. I am sure there may exist some anti-semites on the left but on average I would say that hate groups are born out of conservative ideals, not liberal ideals.

    (ie. Nazi party, Klu Klux Klan, Fred Phelps)

    Again, as we’ve known empirically since 1965 and the Moynihan Report, the leading cause of black urban poverty is breakdown of the family.

    On average black people have been poor since coming to this country with chains around there ankles.  Slaves don’t get paid very well (look it up it is a fact). Now, here is a real fact, poverty creates poverty, you jack ass.

  45. If our friend Justin does in fact possess the intellect and integrity to engage in rational, thoughtful deliberation, he’s done a piss-poor job proving it. I especially love how he can’t back up his shaky claim about the Moynihan report, so he just keeps repeating it and repeating it ad nauseam. He’s not helping his case, whatever it may be.

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