The Raving Atheist discusses The Worst Argument of All

There’s a good entry up over at TRA titled The Worst Argument of All that takes a look at one of the more popular arguments theists like to throw at atheists as a reason why there must be a God.

“An atheist has no reason to oppose murder” is one of the religious bigot’s favorite canards. Dostoevsky’s dictum that “without God, anything is permitted” is popular among superstitious know-nothings who know nothing about atheism except that they hate it and its adherents. Without an all-powerful, celestial lawgiver to dispense reward and punishments, they argue, there’s no reason to be good. Why not just kill that old lady for her money, or for no reason at all, and simply hide the body?

The answer TRA provides is quite similar to one I’ve used on many occasions myself, but worded much more eloquently than I’ve ever managed. It’s definitely worth checking out and considering.

Speaking of The Raving Atheist, if you don’t read it regularly already then I highly recommend it. It’s simply one of the best written blogs about atheism I’ve ever seen and it’s a regular read of my own. I rarely comment there because there’s so little I disagree with or that I could add to the discussion most of the time and even to a long-time atheist such as myself who has given his non-belief a lot of thought over the years there’s still stuff that comes up on TRA that shows me a way of looking at myself I hadn’t considered previously. That alone keeps me coming back.

170 thoughts on “The Raving Atheist discusses The Worst Argument of All

  1. so here’s where you just hit ‘em with “so are you saying that without the punishment of hell-fire, you’d go out and kill people?” 

    maybe what they say about laws also applies to gods- good people don’t need them, bad people won’t follow them.

  2. and didn’t a bunch of holy rollers inflict the crusades, numerous witch trials, and a big ‘ol inquisition on lots of people?  seems like religion doesn’t make you STOP killing people…

  3. Satan has many forms and nothing stops him from taking the form of God fearing Christians by entering the minds of the weak and using them for his plans. His worst trick is to get us to not believe he exists. You blame Christianity for war, the witch trials, the crusades and many other or all other acts of man’s inhumanity towards man. I blame the deciever, Satan. Satan being the manifestation of sin and all that is evil.

    I am eternally grateful to the Lord for my salvation. I am a recent born again and will add myself to your list of Gospel abiders who admit to you that it is only the fear of Hellfire that stays my hand from acts of sin, that is lust, bestiality(violence) and all others.

    Romans 10:13 “For whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”

  4. You have heard it before because the key to truth is simplicity.

    Originality? Archeoligists digging up bones of the long since deceased, astrologers stairing at stars that have been there for longer than we know and scientists trying to develop a new way to split the atom, it’s all been done before.

    1 Cor, 15:33 “Be not decieved: evil commonuications corrupts good manners”

    Nice blog by the way, I can see you are one of an open minded sort.

  5. We’ve heard it all before because you folks have this incessant need to try and convince the rest of us to buy into your delusions.

    Originality? Archeoligists digging up bones of the long since deceased, astrologers stairing at stars that have been there for longer than we know and scientists trying to develop a new way to split the atom, it’s all been done before.

    Which has nothing to do with what you’ve brought up here.

    1 Cor, 15:33 “Be not decieved: evil commonuications corrupts good manners

  6. Please excuse my many mispellings, skool was very hard for me, as I found it to be filled with hypocrites and controlling families. I suppose it was not quite so bad for you though. Also I could not find your spell checker.

    Since you do not see, or do not want to see, the relevance of my posts I will try to explain.

    You are an athiest and refer to yourself as a stupid evil bastard, I profess my love of Christ and you call me a clueless twit.
    It was Paul the Apostle who, as I quoted above, warned us in 1Cor. 15:33 about how a closeness to evil causes rudeness.

    This thread is on, I believe the moral difference between non-Christians and Christians.
    I cannot see how you as an athiest can have a proper opinion on the Gospel being one who does not accept His Teachings.

    So I must tell you that to abide by the gospel one is not allowed to sin, and committing a sin in one’s mind, that is even thinking about it, makes one guilty of that sin. Killing, stealing, lying, lusting are all sins. So is pride, the fear of pain or death, greed, anger and many other things, to many to list. Ofcourse it is impossible to do this, that is why He forgives those who accept him. To accept Him one must be completely willing to turn away from sin, that means to not desire to sin and to oppose sin and all that is evil. That is where, I believe, you and I are different. If I am wrong, please correct me.

    Proverbs 13:19 “But it is an abomination to fools to depart from evil.”

  7. I thought the gospels said that sin was unavoidable (considering original sin), as such it makes no sense to say that one is not allowed to sin, given that it is a sin just to be a human.  To require repentence is a very different thing than to prohibit sin.

    As for the crusades, anti-semitism, and witch burning.  It’s odd that you blame Satan given that the last pope blamed the Roman Catholic Church and appologized in its behalf for the crusades, anti-semitism and witch burning.  It also led him to the position that war, whether fought in the name of God or not, is never justified.

  8. SS: 

    John Paul II did not blame the Catholic Church for anti-semitism.  He acknowledged the role the Churhc has played.

  9. Here we go again…

    Please excuse my many mispellings, skool was very hard for me, as I found it to be filled with hypocrites and controlling families. I suppose it was not quite so bad for you though. Also I could not find your spell checker.

    Funny, I found the same thing to be true of many religious groups. As for the spell checker, what, I have to provide that for you as well? Get yer own.

    Since you do not see, or do not want to see, the relevance of my posts I will try to explain.

    Apparently you are unable to determine the difference between someone saying that part of your comment was irrelevant versus the whole comment being such. I’m aware of what you’re trying to say which is part of why I called you a clueless twit.

    You are an athiest and refer to yourself as a stupid evil bastard, I profess my love of Christ and you call me a clueless twit.
    It was Paul the Apostle who, as I quoted above, warned us in 1Cor. 15:33 about how a closeness to evil causes rudeness.

    Irony also escapes your understanding too I see. Though I suppose that’s to be expected from someone who’s basing his judgments off of a single entry or two. Had you bothered to look further you would understand the reason why the site is named as it is and the fact that I don’t actually view myself as such. But like so many others, you opted to judge by initial appearances despite the fact that your own Bible tells you to judge not.

    And if being close to evil only makes me rude then you have nothing to really worry about then. Though I should point out that it doesn’t take harsh words to be rude. If you want to sit around professing your love for a mythical fairy tale there are plenty of other sites out there who would welcome you with open arms.

    This thread is on, I believe the moral difference between non-Christians and Christians.
    I cannot see how you as an athiest can have a proper opinion on the Gospel being one who does not accept His Teachings.

    And thusly you demonstrate that you are, in fact, a clueless twit proving my comment not a rude insult, but a statement of fact. I’ve written almost 3000 entries for this site and another near 3000 comments which, had you read even a small portion of, you’d probably understand that I wasn’t always an atheist, that I have read the Bible many times in the past (still do), and had even considered joining the clergy at one time.

    But you haven’t bothered. You’ve decided to make your judgments based on a couple of items and your own prejudices. You don’t have a clue what my background is and yet you’re arrogant enough to assume that you do.

    So I must tell you that to abide by the gospel one is not allowed to sin, and committing a sin in one’s mind, that is even thinking about it, makes one guilty of that sin. Killing, stealing, lying, lusting are all sins. So is pride, the fear of pain or death, greed, anger and many other things, to many to list. Ofcourse it is impossible to do this, that is why He forgives those who accept him. To accept Him one must be completely willing to turn away from sin, that means to not desire to sin and to oppose sin and all that is evil.

    Blah blah blah blah. Yes, yes, we know all about that. You’re just another in a long line of broken records.

    That is where, I believe, you and I are different. If I am wrong, please correct me.

    Again with the assumptions. So far the biggest area in which we disagree is over the truth of a 2000 year old book of myths and fantasies. Beyond that I don’t know a whole lot about you other than you’re prone to thinking you got me all figured out based on a couple of entries. I believe arrogance is also a sin. Better say your prayers.

    And enough with the Bible quotes. I’m more than familiar with the book and it doesn’t mean a shittin’ thing to someone who doesn’t believe in it.

  10. I actually am very well aware that you read the bible, and was more thinking that you are more the professer type than clergy, but am not at all suprised. I said earlier that you are one that has not accepted the his teachings not one that is unaware of them.

    You made this comment so here it comes,
    “Beyond that I don’t know a whole lot about you other than you’re prone to thinking you got me all figured out based on a couple of entries”

    I am 34 years old and found Jesus’ gospel on the internet two months ago, I now seek his faith.
    I have still yet to be baptised, as approaching a church has been very hard for me to do. My prior life was that of an occult follower and all around basic sinner, you know the story. I don’t know much about Him, but I know that it is now expected of me to find out and talk with others about Him as much as possible.

    I can say this much, He is real and I am very glad to be saved from Hell. Never once in my life have I ever thought that I wasn’t going to Hell when I died. All who follow Satan are damned including the elder gods of sorcery.

    If you can help me please do.

  11. Gijnabar, this may not be the optimal website for help with your relationship to Jesus.  In fact, websites generally are of limited usefulness for what you are trying to do.

    I suggest attending a neighborhood church.  Since there are several out there, take your time choosing one.  Try to find one that treats its members as intelligent people.  If you hear a lot of yap about “sheep” and “sinners,” you’re trading one neurosis for another.

    Try to find one that is actually involved in helping people instead of just converting them.  There are over two thousand verses in the bible that directly relate to helping the poor.  Place that beside about eight verses related to homosexuality, just a few related to abortion, and only a couple about atheists.  Try to keep things in proportion.

    Look at the couples in the church; are the men and women partners, or is the man clearly “in charge?”  Are women allowed to speak in the morning service.  Are they allowed to say anything of substance?  Even if you’re a guy and a little tired of hearing women talk, you’d be surprised how quickly you start to miss it. 

    As for your background in sorcery, I suggest being sort of quiet and listening for a few weeks.  You’ll find out pretty quick how loving or how judgmental they are.

    Pay special attention to the conversations following the service.  Does it sound like people enjoying their lives?  Or like people trying to convince themselves of something?

    I can’t give you any advice on the actual theology of the place, because I don’t even believe there’s a god in the first place.  But ask yourself; “How silly would this sound if I weren’t desperate for something in my life?”

    Best of luck to you.

  12. It was in the middle of April and I wanted something inspirational to read on the internet, because my job as a PR for a video game developer in a studio in Williamsburg kept me in front of the computer 24\7. So I went to google and typed in these words, “dungeons and dragons satan murder”. I read everything there, one of the following which I pasted below for your reading entertainment, if you like that sort of stuff and haven’t already seen it. It is written by one William Schnoebelen. I have to admit he seems to know more about that kind of stuff that I ever did and I am glad for that, atleast. Though I am still scared as hell of Hell.
    As I said in my last post, Jesus has come to me and forgiven me for my past sins, but I am expected to learn and abide by His gospel and I am being watched now by Him and His angels. As the Socialist Swine called it I am repenting, and choose to do that in part on your website for a lack of better places to go.
    I love Jesus

    http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp

    null

  13. Hey, Gijnabar – you posted while I was typing.

    Chick publications is an entertaining place – I have quite a collection of Chick tracts myself.  But (and this is methodological, not theological evidence) you might want to read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis – you know, for balance.

    From my dough the real remedy for all that sorcery stuff is the same as the remedy for all that Christianity stuff – the circular file.

  14. G – I feel great pity for you. Your head is obviously full of a variety of false images of reality. I’m sure it’s not all your fault, you have been, like all of us, lied to all your life. This excess mental baggage will drive you crazy. There are no gods. Period. Shed that silly old tome of Jewish mythology and look elsewhere for truth. The occult is just as much bullshit as religion – they are both equal quantities of superstition and only the primitive mind will ever be fooled by them for long.

    And this idiotic book of hate you quote from, if it’s the word of god why, then, is there not one original thought within. Why no really important information that Man could use. How ‘bout something like…

    Jimbo 1:1 Beware the tiny unseen for they are the harbingers of disease.

    Jimbo 1:2 Fear not the feline for she shall restrict the rat and the flea.

    Jimbo 1:3 Blessed is the bread mold for it is the fruit of health.

    Akmed 2:7 Attend the bending of the light in water.

    Akmed 2:9 And the realm of the small shall become apparent.

    Neil 3:1 Let not politicians waste on weapons what can be used to populate the stars.

    I might have remained a believer if there was just one such example. No such luck. There are very few pearls of wisdom in the dung-heap that is the Bible, and none of it original. You’d think if god came on down and walked around with folks he’d write down some recipes for some medicine or something!

    Wake up!

  15. Hi Decrepitoldfool, thanks for your advice but I’m not sure what a circular file is.
    So C.S. Lewis wrote philosophical books, huh, not just fantasy fiction, he is mentioned in one of the articles on that site, I think. My tastes in fiction was always closer to the likes of Lewis Carol in that genre.

    Spocko, Thank you for your concern about the welfare of my mentality I do appreciate your advice. Yet, after reading your post I can’t help but believe that if you met God you would ask Him for money.
    God put those diseases on our planet to punish us with. Curing ailments is up to us if we so choose, it is not in His purpose to do that. When Jesus was with us he cured the ill because they were near him and as a sign of His divinity. He only brought back one man, beside Himself, from the dead and only because it severed a purpose. Something to do with fulfilling a prophecy that someone brought up before Him, and kind Lazuras had a tale for us about the after life and what is waiting for us on the other side.

    Better than a cure for any and all diseases Jesus gave us the gospel, the power over evil, and forgiveness for the sins of those who believe in Him, and salvation from Hell, where our soul goes after we die.
    You cannot really believe after reading the bible that Jesus would bother with explaining science and medicine to us. His teachings were about refraining from evil and having good manners. He also said that in Heaven His Father is preparing for us the Promised Land, where there is no evil or death, and Jesus does not lie.

    Referring again to diseases and such here is another example on the philosophy of God.
    Matthew 10:28 “Fear not them that can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to kill both body and soul in hell.”

    Jesus is real, He is in Heaven and He answers the prayers of those who call upon His name.

  16. Circular file?  You have one on the floor next to your desk.  An excellent place for circular arguments, such as: “The bible is God’s word – it says so in the bible.”

    C.S. Lewis wrote Christian books, and is acclaimed as one of the greatest Christian writers. 

    It might seem strange for an atheist to recommend a Christian author but if you’re determined to be a Christian you’d be better off reading his stuff than the ravings of the Chick Publishing crowd.  At least Lewis was a genuine scholar of scripture and the church.

    Spocko has a point – if you insist on trading one fairy story for another, you haven’t really gained much ground.

  17. G – I don’t get the money comment and the punishment nonsense just exposes your delusion even further.

    Jesus did not heal anyone or bring anyone back from death. He never existed. Jesus wasn’t even a name back in the day, it’s a word that meant “savior”. There were many scammers calling themselves the Jesus back then – none of them were gods. Nazareth didn’t even exist till centuries later. And Lazarus, sorry wrong again; that’s just rehashed bunk from the Egyptian’s El-Azarus. Your precious scribes were too stupid to dream up anything new. Jewish mythology is nothing but plagiarism.

    You cannot really believe after reading the bible that Jesus would bother with explaining science and medicine to us. His teachings were about refraining from evil and having good manners. He also said that in Heaven His Father is preparing for us the Promised Land, where there is no evil or death, and Jesus does not lie.

    I’ve read that crap forwards and backwards several times – that is precisely why I’m an atheist.  Obviously, I don’t really believe any of it. I’ve studied the past and I see the evolution of your mythology and can no longer be decieved by it.

    Jesus is real, He is in Heaven and He answers the prayers of those who call upon His name.

    “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. Where’s yours?!

  18. PS, G – you missed my point completely. There is nothing in the Bible that proves it was written by anyone other that ordinary men. Nothing. Not one piece of information that exceeds the knowledge of the folk at the time. If there were any actual hints at technology, the structure of the atom, the true depth of space, ANYTHING!, it would make an atheist like me wonder. Indeed, I might not have become an atheist in the first place!

    Sorry but you’ve got nothing but a load of rehashed “golden rule” jibber-jabber mixed in with Roman Sun worship. Study your history, you’re just a willing pawn of the Empire!

  19. Ah, a newbie Christian. We don’t see too many of those around here very often. Usually it takes a while before they get up the gumption to engage us in conversion attempts.

    I actually am very well aware that you read the bible, and was more thinking that you are more the professer type than clergy, but am not at all suprised. I said earlier that you are one that has not accepted the his teachings not one that is unaware of them.

    I currently do not accept the Bible as true, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t at one point in time. A point I raised earlier that you seem to be ignoring.

    I am 34 years old and found Jesus’ gospel on the internet two months ago, I now seek his faith.
    I have still yet to be baptised, as approaching a church has been very hard for me to do. My prior life was that of an occult follower and all around basic sinner, you know the story. I don’t know much about Him, but I know that it is now expected of me to find out and talk with others about Him as much as possible.

    Then you’re definitely barking up the wrong tree here. You’d be better off, as DOF suggested, seeking out others of a similar state of mind.

    Which isn’t to say that there’s no one I could recommend to you if you are, indeed, serious about learning more about your new found religion. Contrary to what you may think there are numerous believers in general—and Christians in particular—that I have admiration and respect for. You may find that folks like ***Dave are in a better position to offer you guidance and advice on your faith. If you’re going to insist on being a Christian then I hope you follow the example of ***Dave and others like him and become one of the better ones out there. We could use more Christians like him.

    But if you insist on hanging around here and making comments like…

    I can say this much, He is real and I am very glad to be saved from Hell. Never once in my life have I ever thought that I wasn’t going to Hell when I died. All who follow Satan are damned including the elder gods of sorcery.

    … I’ll continue to consider you a twit. I accept that you believe that nonsense to be true and if it helps you to sleep at night or get through the day without killing someone then, by all means, believe it to be true all you want.

    But your sincerity of belief doesn’t count for much in terms of convincing me that it actually is true.

    If you can help me please do.

    You’ve exchanged one form of credulity for another. Given that, I’m not sure you can be helped. Certainly you can be instructed in the ways and rituals of your newly exchanged beliefs, but whether that amounts to “helping” you is open to debate.

    It was in the middle of April and I wanted something inspirational to read on the internet, because my job as a PR for a video game developer in a studio in Williamsburg kept me in front of the computer 24\7. So I went to google and typed in these words, “dungeons and dragons satan murder

  20. Is there any way to paste paste some thing here ?
    Jesus will forgive murderers for there sins,
    but he wont forgive me for not “believing”.
    seems like kinda a contradiction.

                     

     

                      95
                      L
                      A
                    R
                    U
                    T    
                  A
                  N

  21. Basil – I write most of my comments in a text editor like Notepad.  (My favorite is win32pad.)

    Then you select the text, press down the ctrl key and tap the C key (ctrl+c) to copy the text.

    Now click inside the comment box, press down the ctrl key, and tap the V key (ctrl+v) to paste.

    There are lots of other ways to do it.  Of course that assumes you’re running a computer with Windows.  If you use a Mac or Linux; same idea, different keys.

    I suggest you press the F1 key and start perusing the ‘Help” files on your computer.  Before you know it people will think you’re some kind of wizard.

  22. Thank you mister Decripitolfool, I’ll try that.
    I arrived at this site by researching Mr. Kent Bovine Mooooooo….. A.K.A. the evolved spieces Hovind Erectus. All you main players are are superb analitical debaters,and I’ve enjoyed reading many threads. Sometimes I wonder if there is a god. If a child sticks a finger into an ant hill
    and an ant climbs onboard for a second,then goes back and tells the other ants he’s seen god… its a finger. The atheist ants all say no way man, your fulla shit dude. If there is a god and the universe is just an ant hill,I’m not climbing onto a finger.To reach god certainly is not by all the injustices done, by people in organized religion.
    Has anyone read Horton Hears a Who ??. There might a god, and he may manifest him or herself in an intangible form; but I’m still not going to like religion.

  23. Gijnabar:

    Don’t bother checking out the bunk about Lazarus.  That is adopted from conspiracy theorists that also state that aliens are living amongst us.  Google Archarya S.

  24. I would like now to face Les’ last comnment about me being a poser, totally not cool of Les.

    From the above point on you’ve raised my suspicions that you’re actually just a comment troll. For someone who claims to be 34 and working as a PR person for a video game developer you seem to be regurgitating a pretty stereotypical account of your conversion and your supposed lack of familiarity with common concepts such as what a “circular file

  25. Spocko,

    I think you got “Jesus” and “Christ” mixed up.  “Jesus” is a latinized form of “Yeshua”, it was a name back then.  “Christ” is a bastardized version of “Kristos” a Greek word meaning savior.  Minor point, but one that might matter.  As for the historic Jesus, there some evidence that he did exist.  There are Roman records of his execution around Passover for inciting a riot or something like that.  That said, there is no contemporary record of the other things he is said to have done.  I guess that’s where the faith comes in.

  26. I think it may be more appropriate to say ‘A’ Jesus existed at that time, rather than ‘THE’ Jesus. Especially as much proof for him in records of the time have been shown to be fakes added in when copies have been made of the original documents.

    You would imagine monks making the copies may have noticed a distinct lack of information about Jesus, especially when the records of the time were often so detailed as to have several pages dedicated to ordinary people. The fact there were only simple paragraphs dedicated to Jesus do seem to stick out when you would imagine him to have entire chapters dedicated to him!

  27. And on it goes, I don’t know why I find this nonsense so entertaining…

    Don’t bother checking out the bunk about Lazarus.  That is adopted from conspiracy theorists that also state that aliens are living amongst us.  Google Archarya S.
    —Consig

    Wrong again Consig, the myth of El-Azarus predates your mythos by millenia and I know nothing of this alien conspiracy crap you mention.

    I do not believe what he said concerning Lazarus as he mentions it as he claims it is an ealrier Egyptian myth and as we both know that the Egyptians, the Alexandrains in particular are to blame for much of the mistranslations of the biblical texts.
    —G

    Again, Egyptian mythology predates Jewish mythology by millenia. What translations are you talking about?

    I also notice that the maker of that comment believes everything he reads and disbelieves the Bible instead of thinking that the other books might be lying.
    —G

    I believe no mythology! What the hell do you think the word atheist means anyway?
    My statement that your mythology is a rip-off of more ancient mythology does not mean I believe the older mythology. Go back to logic class!

    I think you got “Jesus

  28. Spocko:

    I don’t know why I find it so entertaining either. That said, your logic that because this myth of “El-azarus” predates Christianity that the latter is a copycat is hardly compelling.  The problem is that it only establishes that which everybody knew, and which nobody has taken issue with, namely that there was an Egyptian mythology.

    The bigger problem, the one that was incredibly obvious in discussing this with the backers of a Horus=Jesus connection, is the amazing lack of source documentation for such claims.  Most read websites and books that provide no documentation and spew what they read as fact. 

    Since I’m sure you are unlike those that I have previously discussed this with, I have no doubt that you will again post to back up your claims with convincing evidence.  I’m sure that you will cite me the original document that you rely upon to make the claim that there exists 1) A story of Horus raisng “El-azarus” and 2) A point by point comparison of the stories such that we can conclude from a preponderance of the evidence that it is more likely than not that one is a copy of the other. 

    No website links.  If you claim it as truth then it’s important enough for us to have your presentation and not have to read through someone else’s boring work.  I believe you can cut through the crap for us.  Besides, I am but a simple ol’ theist, and needs me a guide through the intellectual bramble so I don’t get lost.

    I also wanted to address another point.  Your last quote did not have a citation.  Please provide that.  In addition, I’m not able to discern from the post the date of crucifixion of this individual.  Nor am I one hundred percent (100%) sure that you believe this individual is the Jesus upon which the Gospels and Christianity are based.  If you could clear these matters up, I would be most appreciative.

  29. spaz:

    The sources we are talking about are Egyptian and Jewish mythology. If you are incapable of researching the original subject on your own don’t ask me for help. What? You’ve never heard of Josephus? Must everything be spoon fed to you by some “authority”. Head to the library man!

    I often cut and paste quotes that I agree with. I’ll give credit when I feel like it. What do you think this is? The Scientific American? You think I’m getting paid for this shit? Any teenage vidiot could easily do a search to find where I snag my quotes if they were so inclined.

    Again I suggest If you want to research the authors of Egyptian mythology or Josephus then visit your local library now!

    The statement may seem logical to you, but it does not to me based on some other facts.

    If you’re here to talk, buddyboy, then let’s hear about those little old facts of yours.

    I want to make sure that you are committed to a position before I knock it down.

    What an arrogant twit you are. My position is always pliable based on current information. I’m still waiting for you to say anything substantial.

    Nor do I wish to make the case for Christianity. 

    Chickenshit.

    However, when you proffer specific examples that compare Horus to Jesus, I simply insist that they not be confabulations of the mind.

    Mythology/religion is fabrication not confabulation. Anyone who takes the time to read both stories will see the similarities for themselves. Get off it man. I’ve never seen a mind so closed!

  30. Spocko, much as I hate to say it, Consi’s the one looking good in this argument.  You’re refusing to answer any of his detailed questions (like “exactly where did you get this claim?”) with weaselly retorts like “the sources are Egyptian and Jewish mythology.”  If a Creationist said “the young earth is proven in scientific journals,” wouldn’t you spank his butt from here to Kenya if he refused to cite jounal, article, author, and line?

    In addition, you’ve taken to making personal jabs instead of answering, which Consi has refrained from doing.  And did you really use the rhetorical equivalent of “I know you are but what am I?” ???

    Come on, I know you can do better than this! You’re letting down the team, bro.  grin

  31. Sorry GM but there’s not much more to say.
    The story of Osiris is part of Egyptian mythology, I make no claims. It is easy for anyone to research the original translations of the heiroglyphics and see for themselves. I don’t know what more anyone wants.

    These religoids brought up this nonsense about the fictional character Jesus raising the dead. My point is that it’s is not an original story. Nothing in the Bible is original, it is plagiarism.

    I’m sick of Consig because he doesn’t bother to answer any questions that I present. He just blathers on whenever anyone mentions the similarities between his mythology and older mythology. Nunya has gone through this subject with him in detail and I’m not going to rehash it.

    If Consig expects me to respect anything he says then he’s going to have to learn how give as well as take. When someone insults me I strike back.

    To me, this is a lot of rambling about a minor point, anyone who studies ancient mythology can plainly see where the Bible copies from older religions. And, certainly, the Egyptian fable is not the only source of the Bible’s transgression. I could list hundreds of “gods” that are the roots to the evolution of the xtian mythos.

    Where are the responses to my questions?

  32. Spocko, I admire the vindiction in your beliefs. I am one of those Christians who feel the line between rebelion and curiosity is wider than some others might say it is. You have apprently done a lot of research on many historical and theological subjects. You appear to be a well educated and diverse individual, thank on all you for sharing your knowledge on these subjects. Infact, I would like to thank everyone on this site for the hard work they put into informing us on such a large variety of philosophies and theologies.

    I will try to do the same now and keep it as close as I can to the way Les has been instructing me on his site’s protocol.
    A lot of the following is from outside of the Bible, but until I am corrected by a worthy source I believe all of it to be true.

    By my understanding on sacred texts there is a lot of societies that are opposed to the Holy Scripture.
    One of these evil societies are often called Alexandrians, or something like that. They are a chief opponent to The Word as they serve the evil purpose of keeping us doomed to Hell. Alexandria is a city located in Egypt that has close ties to Rome,

    Egypt is opposed to the Torah and the Gospel Scriptures. Long ago Egypt had enslaved a tribe of people called the Hebrew, who by my understanding have a direct lineage with the original family of all humanity. During their escape from the Egyptians, The God of the Hebrews sent plagues to Egypt and caused the destruction of their once wealthy nation. The God of the Hebrews as it turns out is the Almighty God of Heaven and the Creater of everything. He is also The Father of the Angels, but His oldest angel, Satan, long before this had rebeled against Him and took with him, to the earth, many other angels. On the earth these fallen angels, also called devils, enjoyed their great power and ruled over us, calling themselves gods and forced us to worship them. I have read outside of the Bible that The God of the Hebrews turned the Egyptian gods against their own country of worshippers and these were the much heard of plagues. I will now continue with refering to the God of the Hebrews as God.
    God and His Angels and the Fallen Angels are very hard for us to understand and even when they do things that should be obvious we still have a hard time comprehending them. Us being of the materialistic world and them being of the spiritual ultra-cosmic and far beyond us. We are further removed from the Presence of them by an evil source of destruction called Sin. Sin was first introduced to us by Satan in one of his many evil tricks, Satan is a master of Sin and uses it to destroy us, because he hates us very much. Sin is very attractive to us and this angers God, many times has He come close to destroying us entirely, but as he loves all of His creations He continues to allow us to persevere.
    The world will never be free of Satans evil curse of Sin and so God will finally destroy it once and for all, only to recreate it again safe from Satan. Before He does that He has decided to give us all a chance to be free. Our life force, concience and personel Identity is also a spiritual being, refered to as our soul. Our Soul is given to us by God and is ours alone. Our body is a vessel for our soul and is supposed to be immortal as our soul is, but Sin kills the body and as we are under the influence of Satan’s evil curse we are as guilty of Sin as he is. Satan is doomed to a terrible place refered to as Hell and he is using His nasty Sin to take as many of us there as he can.
    Because of Sin we are held back from Heaven which is the perfect home of the one perfect being, because Sin corrupts even our soul and God will not allow the corrupted soul of a sinner in His divine presence. My belief on this, is that Heaven is above the earth and Hell is below it. When we die our soul is released from our body and will fall, descend, as we are not strong enough on our own to lift it upwards, ascend. Ascension takes the help of a divine being and as Heaven is the personel property of God, it takes His allowance for that to happen. As said before He will not let a dirty soul in His presence or His Heaven. The only way for us to achieve ascension is to be forgiven by Him. At one time the only people, as far as I know, who he forgave were certain Hebrew who obeyed the Torah. The ways to be forgiven were told by Him to His chosen high priest in the way of prophecy, who would inform the other Hebrews of this. He also told His high priest that he would send a messiah to the earth to offer forgiveness to everyone on the earth. Prophecy is an action that takes place on earth under divine giudance, The Messiah of God would be recognized by many prophecies.

    From the lineage of the Hebrews came The Messiah of God, Jesus Christ. He fulfilleds all said prophecies and He is the mannifestion of the God in Heaven on earth. While here He taught us how to recognize evil in it’s true form and how to overcome it. His teachings, called the Gospel are His Words preserved for all these centuries as they are protected by Him and indesctructable, though Satan tries all he can to keep us from them. Jesus had many followers and amongst them where His disciples. I know of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John these are refered to as His disciples and were charged with the duty of scribing the Gospel while Jesus preached it, with certain additions such as letters to the Romans and John’s sermons these became the New Testament. They also brought to Jesus manuscripts of the Torah (and other books too, maybe?) as told by the prophecy.  Jesus looked through and told them what was right, those became the Old Testament of the Bible. These books altogether make up the Holy Bible and Jesus blessed them with the Gospel and they are forever protected by Him.

    Trying to distort the Word of God are the followers of the fallen angels, people still worship them even today. Thier tricks include changing the texts of ancient religions such as the Egyptian’s to discredit the Gospel, and making up false additions to it, such as the Apocrypha. These are introduced to the Bible it seems when it is translated into other languages. Ever heard of The Satanic Church Alexandrian tradition?
    If Satan suceeded at keeping the Gospel from reaching an individual it is that individual’s choice. Always the Name of Jesus and the belief in His good manners will save a soul from Hell. The power of the Gospel is in the belief of the Gospel, Satan can not stop a person from believing, he merely using Sin and all of his dirty tricks to distract us from it.
    To be alive is to be cursed by Sin, a power much stronger than ourselves. Satan brought Sin into this world and it is because of Sin that we are here right now, doomed to Hell on a dying planet. To ascend into Heaven we must be willing to overcome it and use His Gospel to do that.

    I do not know where or when prayer was first learned to us in history. Prayer is very dangerous for us to do and we should never pray to anything or anybody, but God. Prayer is when we open the deepest parts of our mind to a being and give our lives and devotion, all that we have to offer to that being. Jesus allows us to pray to and have contact with God, Jesus is God’s intermediary for us. Never pray to anybody but Jesus or it could mean serious trouble.
    As has been told in Spocko’s earlier posts, there are are many who call themselves Jesus, for their own vile purposes, do not pray to them. To find the right Jesus reach Him through His Gospel, it does not actually require a Bible to do that, as the Gospel itself is The Spirit of the Bible. You might not contact Jesus the first time you try praying to Him, but He will know when you try, He is God Almighty and Satan fears Him. The strengthening of an immortal soul takes things like virtue and patience, and understanding and tolerance.

  33. Spocko:

    I had hoped that it should be readily apparent that there is fairly wide gap in theology between myself and others that visit the site, including Gijnabar. 

    You said:

    I make no claims.

    yet you then say

    My point is that it’s is not an original story. Nothing in the Bible is original, it is plagiarism.

    That is a claim.  You are making claims. That is why I requested some sort of documentation to support your specific claim.

    What an arrogant twit you are.

    I’ll admit that you are likely right about the arrogant portion of the statement.  I’ve made it a point when posting here to be extremely careful.  My credibility when I post here is important.  For that reason, I don’t go out on limbs, and I try not to make statements that I will have to retract.  It is for those reasons that you don’t see me challenging your general premise that the Jesus is based on “a vast number of prior mythologies.”  I do not believe that, but as a general premise, I can’t knock that down convincingly. I can with Horus, so, I do what I can.

    I’m sorry that you felt insulted Spocko.  I generally respect your posting, and love your cutting humor.  It’s hysterical stuff.  Having said that, I respectfully submit to you that this discussion is ending the same way the one I had with Nunya ended, without any documentation to support the claims being made.

  34. on and on and on and on it drones.. I tell ya. Im with Spocko on Neil 3:1 here.. but I think modification is in order. “Let not theists waste on religion what can be used to populate the stars.” In conjunction with: Qoayn 1:1 “Abort Polititians before they happen.”  We could have been halfway across the galaxy by now after that post. I admire Gij’s flare. If it was a bit more concise,to the point and educated on the topic/methods of conversion. I would have converted, accepted all that is devine and been saved. Now instead I’m still
    stuck on this rock as an immoral heathen with absoloutly no salvation. I think I’m even more retarded than I was willing to admit before. It’s not a complete loss though, It’s always good to know that I am never gonna get off this rock. So please dont do anything rash like kill yourself and go talk to god about it Gij.

  35. Hi Gijnabar,

    Thanks for putting some effort into your last post, you no longer appear to be just a troll. We are annoyed by them every once in a while.

    As for my “beliefs”, they are simple; religion is superstition, xtianity is derived from older mythology, truth has evidence to support it, faith is the surrender of reason and the end of the honest search for truth.

    I have no belief in any god I’ve ever heard of but I allow the possibility of some type of god to exist (an extremely slim possibility by my experience). That makes me both atheist and agnostic – no belief, no absolute knowledge. I have no illusions that this makes me superior in any way although I find it the only logical position to assume. I am human and can get pissed off very easily. I rarely hold back that anger when I come up against a brick wall or a snotty attitude. Not to say that I’m not an asshole myself – just ask Mrs Spocko!

    Know this: I was previously a, baptized, born again, xtian who went to church several times a week. I’ve read the Bible in detail, I know its many failings well. My parents were Baptists so I was indoctrinated into that particular cult. I can see, now, how the droning of the pastor and the rhythm of his speech created a type of mass hypnosis that prompts the young and naive to stand, head down that isle to the baptismal pool, and “accept the lord jesus christ as my personal lord and saviour”.sick Stay out of church dude! Lucky for me that I have the genetic make-up to shed this delusion once I reached maturity.

    After a lifetime of lies, I trust no “experts” anymore. It is far better to become your own expert. I read the original text (at least as close as I can get to it) rather than rely on some middleman. Of course since I can not read ancient Egyptian or Hebrew I do depend on expert translators (hopefully multiple translators/translations) and I never ignore the “experts” opinions, you must read everything, absorb their ideas (even if you don’t agree) and then evaluate against the known facts or “original sources”. The best source of info for the Egyptian mythos comes from the Book of the Dead, the Pyrimad Texts, etc. The best source for Christian mythology is probably the Dead Sea scrolls. But you can not stop there or you will be deluded. You must also study Mithras, Kristna, Dionysus, Apollonius, Helios, and on and on! While you’re at it, study Logic and the evolution of story-telling and mythology itself. How did the things you believe come to be? Do not cop out and ignore what the 10s of thousands of years of story-telling may have been like before your alleged “Beginning”.

    I’m starting to ramble so let me address your text…

    By my understanding on sacred texts there is a lot of societies that are opposed to the Holy Scripture.

    By “Holy Scriptures” I’ll assume you’re talking about the xtian mythos. Yes, since there are thousands of different religious cults around the world, I would agree there are probably many folks opposed to your collection of fables.

    One of these evil societies are often called Alexandrians, or something like that. They are a chief opponent to The Word as they serve the evil purpose of keeping us doomed to Hell. Alexandria is a city located in Egypt that has close ties to Rome,

    Sorry but I refuse to group together the people of a city and call them all evil. That sounds like some shit that evil ol’ bastard Yahweh would pull!
    Tell ya what; go read about Hypatia then we’ll talk more about Alexandria.

    Long ago Egypt had enslaved a tribe of people called the Hebrew

    The archeological record opposes this statement. There is also no evidence of this in the written history of Egypt. Seems strange to me. Is it easy for you to believe something without proof?

    who by my understanding have a direct lineage with the original family of all humanity.

    Not likely – our DNA shows evidence that our roots come from much further south.

    During their escape from the Egyptians … I will now continue with refering to the God of the Hebrews as God.

    Sorry but I see no substantiation for any of this story at all. How can I differentiate this tale from that of, let’s say, Odin? Why is it any more believable?

    Satan … Messiah of God would be recognized by many prophecies.

    I suppose you could elaborate on these “prophecies”?

    From the lineage of the Hebrews came The Messiah of God, Jesus Christ. He fulfilleds all said prophecies and He is the mannifestion of the God in Heaven on earth. While here He taught us how to recognize evil in it’s true form and how to overcome it. His teachings, called the Gospel are His Words preserved for all these centuries as they are protected by Him and indesctructable, though Satan tries all he can to keep us from them. Jesus had many followers and amongst them where His disciples.

    If only you knew how many “suns of god” shoveled that same story!

    I know of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John …

    Don’t you wonder why “their” books in the Bible weren’t written by them?

    and were charged with the duty of scribing the Gospel while Jesus preached it, with certain additions such as letters to the Romans and John’s sermons these became the New Testament. They also brought to Jesus manuscripts of the Torah (and other books too, maybe?) as told by the prophecy.  Jesus looked through and told them what was right, those became the Old Testament of the Bible. These books altogether make up the Holy Bible and Jesus blessed them with the Gospel and they are forever protected by Him.

    Whoa there bucko! This is not how the Bible was put together at all. Go do some reading about Constantine and his little Conclave of Holy Book Publishers®. While you’re learning about that, wonder what was left out and why.

    Trying to distort the Word of God are the followers of the fallen angels, people still worship them even today. Thier tricks include changing the texts of ancient religions such as the Egyptian’s to discredit the Gospel, and making up false additions to it, such as the Apocrypha. These are introduced to the Bible it seems when it is translated into other languages.

    Folks worship all kinds of stuff don’t they? One need not bother looking at trick or add-ons, the Bible leaves plenty to be desired in its own right.

    Ever heard of The Satanic Church Alexandrian tradition?

    Man, I’ve seen many religions but I’ve seen not one god, devil, angel, ghost, etc. I’ve read many so-called Holy texts but have seen not one example of higher intelligence or knowledge of science yet to be discovered. Not one scrap of any these texts appears to be the inspired word of any god (or demon if you prefer).

    …sin sin sin…

    Sheesh! Get a grip! I have no gods and commit no “sins”, it’s not very hard to do and comes natural to most folks. Something tells me that you are an ex-Satanist who is on a major guilt trip. That’s freaky dude! Forgive yourself and move on, you were probably just young and stupid right? I know I’ve believed in silly things before.

    …prayer…

    Sorry just more superstition. I’m sure glad the US government spends millions of our tax dollars to study this prayer stuff!

     

    sig…

    That is a claim.  You are making claims. That is why I requested some sort of documentation to support your specific claim.

    Oh, that claim! That’s a fact, not my claim. Documentation on all prior gods is easily obtained from your local library. What more do you want? I’m sure you can easily search for a list of books on Josephus or Egyptian mythology or the history of Apollonius or any of the other “saviour gods”. I’m not going to do your homework for you. Once you have read the documentation and do not see the evolution of the xtian mythos then I’m done with you and will consider you blind or purposely closed-minded. And I would suggest you start from “Jesus’” time and work backwards instead of starting with the Egyptians.

    It is for those reasons that you don’t see me challenging your general premise that the Jesus is based on “a vast number of prior mythologies.

  36. Shame on me for always wanting to look at the original text.  The problem I consistently have is that nobody can refer me to that text.

    So going by the context of this statement then since there is not one single fucking word, not a single Yea Verily, not even a period that is “original text” about the “Bible” then Im glad we have debunked the pile of shit for you.  Great so we can just omit the obligatory “The Bible says” from this date forward.

    As for the El-Azar-us myth which you refuse to acknowledge there is every bit as much text stating this as there is of your alleged “Jesus raises Lazarus” fable, which BTW is precisely what BOTH are, a Fable, a fairytale, neither are factual accounts of anything. The bronze age Bedouins of which you so cavalierly regard as spewing nothing but pure divine text, so divine that it can actually travel as Oral Tradition from tribe to tribe, from land to land, from language to language, translated from Greek to transliterated to Latin to English after 1000+ years and yet not misquote or misinterpret a single fable of which they stole from the original PAGAN, Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian myths. These brilliant scholars from which you base your entire life around grouped mystic, magic, supernatural, and miracle together; therefore, to understand what they meant, modern researchers must also construct some interpretive framework which likewise accounts for, as a group, mystic, magic, supernatural, and miracle, as they are all exactly the same.

    Now the “Jesus Myth” of Lazarus Vs the Egyptian Myth of El-Azur-us.  Lets compare shall we?

    In these 2 stories, Osiris has two sisters – so does Lazarus, references to death as a state of sleep and resurrection as a waking up from that sleep, Osiris, like Lazarus, was dead for four days, references to the wailing sisters, references to the stench (or absence of) the corpse, the tombs were opened before the resurrection, references to the freeing of the bondage of the corpse.

    The Egyptian myth about the death of the god Osiris and his resurrection of by Horus. Osiris has two sisters, Isis and Nephthys.(Note: Horus is the son of Isis-Meri by virgin birth which you also refuse to acknowledge) In the legend Osiris lies dead at Heliopolis. Heliopolis was the Greek name for the Egyptian burial ground. This necropolis is known by various names in Egyptian, one of them is “House of Anu

  37. Nunya:

    Glad to see that you’ve come to the table with something to chew on. smile  Unfortunately for me, I will have to wait to address this until the weekend or possible early next week depending on when I get some free time.

  38. I would like to comment on some of the posts that slam the book of my much beloved saviour, starting with the first one,

    “An atheist has no reason to oppose murder

  39. Basil,
    I know you posted this some time back, but seeing as how no one answered the latter part of it, I thought I would give it a try.

    Is there any way to paste paste some thing here ?
    Jesus will forgive murderers for there sins,
    but he wont forgive me for not “believing

  40. P.S.  I made an error, I didn’t mean to say “Justinius”.  I meant to say “Flavius Josephus”.  I don’t know how “Josephus” turned into “Justinius” in my head but I didn’t mean Justinius.  His reports were likely to be forgeries.  Moreover, I grant that Josephus’ reports have been mistranslated to support the resurrection but a more recent translation of his paragraph on Jesus is perhaps more accurate to the original intent of the author:

    At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.

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