Photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq generating a lot of Arab anger.

And rightly so. Seems some of our troops aren’t behaving any better over there than Saddam did. Psychological torture, sexual assault, beatings and other abuses by the troops overseeing Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad appear to have been the rule of the day. Some pretty graphic pictures have been released along with eyewitness accounts and at least six U.S. soldiers are already up for courts-martial. Meanwhile, the Arab would is outraged:

MSNBC – Arab outrage grows over alleged prisoner abuse

“They were ugly images. Is this the way the Americans treat prisoners?” asked Ahmad Taher, 24, a student at Baghdad’s Mustansiriyah University. “Americans claim that they respect freedom and democracy—but only in their country.”

Hussein al-Saeedi, spokesman for Kuwait’s al-Salaf radical Islamic group, said the images “make every sensible person doubt all the principles Western democracies are offering” and show the need for an end to the U.S. occupation.

“America justified its invasion of Iraq by saying the country was under a dictatorship. Unfortunately, Americans are now torturing the Iraqi people in the same place Saddam tortured them,” he said.

So much for winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, let alone the Arab world. As far as they can tell we’ve removed one dictator only to take his place. Ah, but this is what we get when a man who sees foreign policy solely in terms of “good” and “evil” is handed the Presidency by judicial fiat.

105 thoughts on “Photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq generating a lot of Arab anger.

  1. This is a terrible incident, but I place very little credence in the outrage in the Arab world. If they were truly outraged by such occurances, they would have said something when Saddam was doing things far worse than this, or when such things occur in any Arab dictatorship. I think they are just outraged because it was Americans instead of Arabs doing this particular crime.

  2. 1.  Appalling incidents of this sort have occured in the military long before the Bush Administration.  Wasn’t Kerry complaining about what war criminals our troops were in Nam, too? (As I recall, Dubya wasn’t anywhere near there. )

    2.  From what I read of conditions in most prisons in the Arab world (hell, in most of the world), the (dreadful) stuff we saw in those pics is by no means beyond the Pale.  Not that we don’t want to be any better than the Saudi, Iranian, Jordanian, or Syrian prison system, but anyone who’s using this to show what particular barbarians the Americans are is blowing smoke out of some oriface.

    I’m by no means, I hope, sounding like I’m excusing those responsble for these awful actions, and we owe it to our principles to stamp them out when they happen.  But to paint this as “what we get when a man who sees foreign policy solely in terms of “good” and “evil” is handed the Presidency by judicial fiat” seems a bit simplistic.

  3. > If they were truly outraged by such occurances,
    > they would have said something when Saddam was
    > doing things far worse than this

    As for the Iraqis at least, they would have ended up in that same prison if they had conmplained. The US gave them the freedom to protest such abuses - and now has to to deal with it.

    Though I’ll assent that its a ‘lightning-rod’-effect. A whole LOTTA lightning, I’m fearing.

    Les, until I see something that makes me change my mind, I don’t think something like this is endemic in the US army. I do fear however, that it isn’t all that rare in prisons themselves, neither in Iraq nor in the US or elsewhere.

  4. I must say I’m surprised at the responses I’ve seen here thus far.  As a veteran of the Gulf War it shamed me deeply to see those photos.

    I agree there is probably a little more backlash in the Arab media for this as it is America that has violated the Geneva convention this time.  It is still, however, justified outrage.

    The only real difference now is that they don’t need to be in fear of being killed for speaking out. (I hope.)

    Dictactorships made these things public to serve as an example to others.

    Just imagine if we had gone and picked up USA Today and found pictures like those with US soldiers in Iraq?  Would we stop to consider how this is probably an isolated incident with a few of their troops getting carried away?

    As a side note, how can we have a war on terrorism with the vast majority of every social scientist saying that its byproduct will be terrorists?

    This isn’t the Superfriends where ‘good’ vs. ‘evil’ all the time.  This is the real world and requires realistic solutions.

  5. Valhalla, I’m guessing that much was said during Hussien’s administration of Iraq.  But why would we, here in the west, have heard what the arab world had to say about him?  Would that have been ‘newsworthy’ prior to our invasion?  Are any American papers polling the Liberians about their feelings toward Charles Taylor, or tallying approval ratings for Kim Jong Il in North Korea?  If they are, I’m afraid I haven’t seen them reported here, and it’s not like I haven’t been looking.  And, for the record, Osama Bin Laden was pretty pissed at Saddam.  I think the term “treacherous infidel” was tossed around quite a bit.

    As far as the press coverage of this story goes, I’ve read the outraged statements of the Arab people—Oh, let me qualify that, it’s been the same 3 quotes from the same 3 arabs reprinted in the LA Times, Al Jazeera Online, CNN Online, and a slew of different blogs.  I assume the worldwide news media will eventually find a few other Iraqis to quote.  But I think this tells you more about the process (and failures) of news gathering than it does public opinion.

    As for the photos—The images really disturbed be, and it’s not just the cruelty implied in them, because we’re supposed to accept cruelty in wartime (er, ‘liberation’-time).  It’s the Americanness of them- the frat style hazing, the goofy grins on the kids, the great fun of having your picture taken next to some humiliated pledge.
    Only these aren’t pledges, and all this is happening at gunpoint.  In the name of every citizen of the US of A.  And these ‘kids’- army, or mercenaries- are being praised by their superiors for extracting information from prisoners in record time.  One of the accused claims he was never given a copy of the Geneva Conventions to read prior to his service as an interrogator, as if that would excuse him from forcing one prisoner to give another a blowjob in front of cheering GIs.  Swell. 
    And these pictures were taken LAST YEAR.  So, assumably, this behavior has gone on unabated ever since. I don’t care if these interrogators are just ‘a few bad apples’; they put our troops and the coalition forces in even greater risk every time they pull this shit.  They need to be yanked out and prosecuted, pronto, and very publicly so.
    Ugh, this absurd war…

  6. The Army brought charges about a month ago. 60 Minutes II sat on this story for two weeks until it began to play elsewhere.

    Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast—given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

    60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.

    Some of the guards were involved in preparing the prisoners for interrogation. The piece listed too few guards, inadequate training, poor leadership, and positive feedback from the interrogators as factors contributing to the incident. All the same, officers are supposed to manage by walking about—it should not have happened.

  7. 1) We have “civilian contractors” (read mercenaries) running the interrogations, running the prisons, and who knows what else and they are NOT subject to military law. Whos bright idea was that (*cough* - BUSH!). They make on average three times what an enlisted man makes, have no accountability to the military, and hide behind the benign label contractor as if they are teachers or health care workers.

    2) In a group of men, and now women, as large as that in the U.S. military there are bound to be a subset of sadistic deviants and when pack mentality kicks in I am sure that number grows. Taken as individuals I doubt that half of those charged would have done anything on their own. In no way do I condone or excuse their actions but I am trying to give their aberrant behavior the benefit of the doubt.

    3) If you think that this does not go on during every major conflict you are deluding yourself. These kids (for the most part) have been given guns and told that they can kill with impunity, next to murder what is a little rape or assault and battery? And if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar you can always plead ignorance, right?

    I entered the Navy in 1988 and still remember the classes where we were taught how to treat prisoners of war per the Geneva Convention and EVEN if they missed that class, what about basic human decency? The few who did this deserve no less than a full courts martial and I would like to see them serve their time in Guantanamo. The contractor that raped the teenage boy should be sent back to America in chains and incarcerated immediately if we are to have any credibility left. So many people who supported this ill conceived Iraq war like to think that we have god on our side… is this kind of behavior really christian? Is this really how those with moral authority behave?

    It really makes me angry when this kind of shit happens.

  8. Even the Brits appears to be getting in on the act. But, according to the BBC,, these photos may have been faked.

    Whatever is true, anyone who inflicts or allows this to be kept quiet is scum. This is no time for the Nuremberg Defence.

  9. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if the pictures are fake or the real thing. I don’t know if the US has any reputation left to damage as far as the people in the Middle East are concerned, but the very fact that there is a comparison between Saddam’s regime and the US occupying force is damning. It’s disquieting - to say the least - to contemplate how effective these pictures may prove in the hands of recruiters for extremist groups.

  10. Faked or not, the photos are what grabbed media attention. The other stuff that was going on may well have gone on unnoticed without the pics.

    The contractors involved are
    [list]
    [*]CACI, International (VA) - Intelligence Support (We used to call this outfit Captains and Commanders, Inc.)
    [*]Titan Group (San Diego) - Translators
    [/list]

    General Myers, appearing on two of this mornings talk shows, said that the Arab world should judge us on how we resolve this as opposed to what Sadam would have done in like circumstances. Well good luck with that one.

    I felt a bit sorry for him when he was asked why the New Yorker was citing a study that he had requested, hadn’t yet reviewed himself. “I haven’t seen it yet,” just didn’t serve.

    Ingolfson at May 1, 2004 05:43 PM
    Les, until I see something that makes me change my mind, I don’t think something like this is endemic in the US army. I do fear however, that it isn’t all that rare in prisons themselves, neither in Iraq nor in the US or elsewhere.

    To his credit, Gen. Myers initiated a comprehensive review of prisoner handling as soon as this flap started.

  11. From what I’ve been able to ascertain 60 Minutes II sat on this story for up to two weeks (depending on source) at the request of the government so that they could get their shit together.

    Don’t judge us by what we do, judge us by what we say.

  12. > General Myers, appearing on two of this
    > mornings talk shows, said that the Arab world
    > should judge us on how we resolve this as
    > opposed to what Sadam would have done in like
    > circumstances. Well good luck with that one.

    From what I just read on several news pages(yahoo news for example), the administration/the military is apparently planning to let those guys off with a written reprimand and possibly dishonorable discharges.

    *Scoff*. So thats all? Slap on the wrist and off you go? Great.

    Mind, they could probably hang them tomorrow in a Baghdad square and it wouldn’t help. The damage is done. But I think a court martial and prison sentences should be the absolute minimum.

    Lets see how that will all play out in the end. Not good I fear. Not good.

  13. Ingolfson

    I read that some of the people were reprimanded.  It sounded like it was the supervisors that weren

  14. Now there’s a name we’ve not seen in awhile! In Eric’s defense, I was blaming Bush for this as well in my initial entry. While ***Dave rightly points out that this isn’t unique to this particular war, I don’t think Bush’s black and white approach to foreign policy helps the situation a

    I’ve also heard that the reprimands were for higher ups, the soldiers involved are still headed for courts-martial from what I’ve read.

  15. Hmmm. Don’t hink I ever connected Dubya to the Gulf of Tonkin but if there is any SECRET collusion going on with the Koreans You can bet the Bush Administration is a) probably involved and b) will do everything in it’s power to protect their secret dealings by citing National Security. So you don’t agree that these private mercenaries that are getting paid with taxpayer money being funneled into companies like Halliburton who benefitted from no bid contracts has NOTHING to do with Bush? You’re right, I’m sure that the administration that is trying to privatize every aspect of America from education to social security has nothing to do with hiring private mercenaries who are not answerable to the military chain of command.

    Just where does the buck stop in this administration?

  16. My bad about the reprimand issue. I can’t find the original article anymore on yahoo to see if I simply mis-read, of if that one could really be interpreted as meaning that the main ‘perps’ were being reprimanded only.

    My point still stands, though. What the US does not want now is people shaking their heads about reprimands being issued. That sounds too much like the slap on the wrist I mentioned.

  17. At the moment they’re saying 6 reprimanded and a 7th was admonished. That’ll learn ‘em!

  18. Nice try Spocko, but first you will have to explain what “admonished” means to 50% of the population

  19. > you will have to explain what “admonished” means

    I bet it’s something compassionately conservative.

  20. I can sleep soundly tonight knowing this issue has been taken care of:

    “President Bush called Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld before a campaign trip Monday and urged him to make sure that U.S. soldiers involved in the abuse are punished, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.”

    If they think this is was only seven people they are sadly mistaken.  I suspect that some others at least had knowledge of what was going on.

    Weren’t there reports of this type of activity from the first prisoner released from this facility?

    Before their courts martial they should all receive some bogus copies of orders reassigning them to Iraq.  Let them stew in that for a couple of days.

    What should be the punishment for the companies the contractors worked for?

    The Army General Janis Karpanski is effectively out of a job.

  21. When you train a soldier to kill people, you tend to forget what that training and conditioning does.  You can’t expect people to position themselves in the line of fire, take aim on people they otherwise would have no reason to hate, kill them dead, and NOT expect those people to submerge a bit of their evolved sense of humanity.

    None of the people who are ultimately responsible for this war will ever take responsibility, and none of them will ever be in the position these soldiers are.  These men are doing a job they were trained and conditioned to do, and unfortunately, in that environment, shit happens. 

    It’s alright to sitback and armchair quarterback the situation from a nice safe computer, but it’s not a fair assessment.  There are attrocities committed in wars by the military personnel of every nation.  Thankfully, they are a minority, but it does happen.

    Sure, it would be nice if our soldiers acted the way we want our kids to act(i.e. better at someone else’s house than they act at home).  But the fact is that when we select a dog for guarding our homes, we choose rottweilers and mastiffs and pit bulls, not pomeranians or toy poodles.  We shouldn’t be surprised when someone gets bitten, if proper care isn’t taken.

    Could this have been prevented?  Probably, with the right planning, organization, rotation, and implementation.  Was that done?  Nope, that really isn’t W’s strong point.  Who do you blame?  Well, you don’t really want to hear my thoughts on that.

  22. Who do you blame? Well, you don’t really want to hear my thoughts on that.Actually, Skippy, I do.

  23. I can and do expect more from soldiers in uniform. 

    These are not some barbaric pitbulls that we have trained to point and shoot.  These are American men and women from all walks of life that know better.

    You’re right Skippy, attrocities happen in every war…and in every war we should point them out and do our best from repeating the same mistakes.

    Could it have been prevented:  Definitely!

    Who do you blame?  Where does the buck stop on the chain-of-command?

  24. Posted by Eric Paulsen at May 1, 2004 07:15 PM
    1) We have “civilian contractors” (read mercenaries) running the interrogations, running the prisons, and who knows what else and they are NOT subject to military law. Whos bright idea was that (*cough* - BUSH!). They make on average three times what an enlisted man makes, have no accountability to the military, and hide behind the benign label contractor as if they are teachers or health care workers.

    I’m not so sure about the contractors at the prison not being under military law. I don’t know where to begin looking for Army regs, but I would think that they be similar to U.S. Navy Regulations 1990 Here are a couple of articles that may apply.

    0809. Persons Found Under Incriminating
    Circumstances.

    1. The commanding officer shall keep under restraint or surveillance, as necessary, any person not in the armed services of the United States who is found under incriminating or irregular circumstarices within the command, and shall immediately initiate an investigation.

    …..

    3. lf the investigation indicates that such person has committed or attempted to commit an offense punishable under the authority of the commanding ofiicer, the latter shall take such action as he or she deems necessary.

    4. If the investigation indicates that such person is a fugitive from justice, & has committed or attempted to commit an offense which requires actions beyond the authority of the commanding officer, the latter shall, at the first opportunity, deliver such person, together with a statement of the circumstances, to the proper civil authorities.

    5. In all cases under paragraph 4 of this article, a report shall be made promptly to the Chief of Naval Operations or the Commandant of the Marine Corps, as appropriate.

    0829. Prisoners of War.

    On taking or receiving prisoners of war, the commanding officer shall ensure that such prisoners are treated with humanity; that their personal property is preserved and protected; that they are allowed the use of such of their effects as may be necessary for their health; that they are supplied with proper rations; that they are properly guarded and deprived of all means of escape and revolt; and that the applicable provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions relative to the treatment of prisoners of war are followed.

    ‘Such action as deemed necessary’ might be to bring charges under the UCMJ. If not, one hopes that their is some federal law so that a C.O. could
    proceed under article 4.

    Are the prisoners POWs or do they fall under that new category invented by the DOD? If the latter, is there a chargeable crime. I sure don’t know.

    Where the heck were the junior officers and field grade officers who should have prevented this from ever happening?

  25. Here’s some interesting things from the Geneva Convention:

    Article 3

    To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

    (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

    Article 127

    The High Contracting Parties undertake, in time of peace as in time of war, to disseminate the text of the present Convention as widely as possible in their respective countries, and, in particular, to include the study thereof in their programmes of military and, if possible, civil instruction, so that the principles thereof may become known to all their armed forces and to the entire population.

    Any military or other authorities, who in time of war assume responsibilities in respect of prisoners of war, must possess the text of the Convention and be specially instructed as to its provisions.

    Oops.  Maybe somebody should have told these folks that we actually signed this thing.

    VernR nails it when he asks where were leaders when this was happening?  This was a breakdown from the top down.

    Who knows, maybe this was all rewritten in the Patriot Act and we just haven’t caught it yet.

  26. These men and women who committed these acts definitely need to be punished for this, but I have to ask, did it ever occur to anyone that most if not all of those who were “outraged” in the Arabic world simply would not give a damn if it had been Iraqis doing this to one another? I’ve noticed a disturbing trend on both sides of the Atlantic and it is that most simply do not care what happens within their own borders unless it is an act committed by someone who is a foreigner. Think on it for a moment, does anyone know or even care what a conflict diamond is? Does anyone give a damn about the Georgian conflict? I am an American, and I am proud of it, but I personally think its about FUCKING time Americans got off their fat, lazy asses and started caring about more that just what affects them. America’s self-centered, sense of apathy truly makes me sick some days.

  27. did it ever occur to anyone that most if not all of those who were “outraged” in the Arabic world simply would not give a damn if it had been Iraqis doing this to one another?

    So you are saying the Arab world should take it in stride if the US behaves likes Saddam’s regime?

  28. I’ve read some blogs by troops who said that Arabs and Muslims were referred to as ‘sand-diggers’ and other racial slurs by their commanding officers. That there is a general view by Americans that Arabs and Muslims are racially inferior. Is this true?

  29. I too was once a proud American.

    Joined the Corps back in ‘79 - chest out to here - walking tall! I thought no one could top the USA as the champion of human rights, freedom, technology, invention, you name it - we were the best. What a poor dumb bastard I was!

    If you ask me these assholes should be locked up for war crimes, including their bosses.

    Paula: I think the term is “sand-niggers” and no not all of us think that way. You’ll probably find that the percentage of people who think like that is equal to the percentage of people who believe in a god. (cynicism prolly kickin’ in)

    Fave quote…

    Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world, than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled!
      Neil Peart

    May the 4th be with you!

  30. First of all.. Arab nations are inferior to the USA, i mean.. look at the way they live! They live in caves and huts the way people used to live thousands of years ago. Is it lack of evolution? or just lack of knowledge of technology? In either case the Arab world is living in a primative state. (A good time in Iraq is firing your semi-automatic weapon in the streets). As far as those pictures are concernd.. Yes they are a breech of the Jineva Convention, and shocking to see.. BUT, Im sure this is just the tip of the iceberg and i belive far worse abuse is happening in prisoner camps all over Iraq. I agree in some kind of torture for Iraq soldiers. Lets not forget why theyre in these camps in the first place alright.

  31. I just can’t believe that you think that this U.S. Military incident “could have been alot worst?” or ” How different is this from what Saddam is?” as if this type of shit is justifiable. Are you crazy? (or Whoever excuses this dog, cat, screwing farm animals sort of mentality) Well if you’re sick, government controlled (mentally), a homosexual, etc etc and base your life on the certain religious principles (think of the priests raping the young boys), then I guess this justifies why you think the way you do.  Homosexual acts when you’re STRAIGHT as an arrow IMPOSED on you? Photographed Nude? Pissed and Shitted on practically? Come on, NO EXCUSE. And of course this is happening in Amerikkan Prisons. The same country that stands on international TV as the socalled Righteous Western Civilization.  And these soldiers only represented and reflected what they learn and see back at home in Amerikka. Just as our children will and do.

    I don’t care what country you are from. This behavior is CAUGHT on tape now. And the photos just explain that this is the same country that Columbine Kids go Rambo, Missing Children Reports are media glorified rather than solved, public lynchings to slaves PHOTOGRAPHED as well, tortured and extinguished the Native American race and put their great great great grandchildren in Public Housing, incarserate CHILDREN when violence is glorified through horror movies, cartoons, gladiator sports, etc. Presidents steal elections and STILL remain President only to start a “corporate” war, A government that assisted with your life savings 401k’s being GONE and unrecoverable only to eat, drink, invest with and party with the Enron “type” of Tyco(oons). Etc Etc Etc. Porn Industry on fire, when AIDS is so out of control. Reality TV’s promoting “Got Low Self Esteem?” Then get a facelift LIVE on ABC! or Get LipoSuction on Primetime CBS. Court shows, COP shows, Depressed Firemen beating the shit out of their coworkers, GangViolence, poor people JAILED if they don’t pay back a debt, failing school systems, and so much more.

    And guess what? We live in Good Old Amerikka. Our Kids grow up and mock Good Ole Amerikka for 8 hours a day away from their parents when in school. Oh how this country time is Nearing to an End. EVERYTHING in life can be compared to a scale or balance.  What you put in WILL be reciprocated. It comes back harder because its unexpected from the bully or giver in the beginning. You can’t handle your own medicine, that’s why you dish it out.

    The Media in Amerikka portrays Arabs, Blacks, Latinos as a people of a poverty inflicted and plain malice people. For all that have been done to the people of dark color, it’s true. They are poor, because unlike the Jews and Japanese, they have not received a DIME for what has been done. The African Slave Trade was the worst inhumane event of allllll time.  I am none of the above races and I have read, studied and researched. Although, money cannot recover the permanent scars of those people. (Look at the inner cities). But now the Government does not discriminate what race they target. If a person is not rich and/or pro goverment then, they’ll die the traditional average way. Cancer, screwed up health insurance, fatty diets, highway pollution from daily commutes, lead drinking water, sexually transmitted diseases with no cure yet sex is natural and must happen in order to reproduce. (Before abortions, remember that thing they call reproduction. The same process that made us)
    September 11th had taken place yes. And possibly with our own Government’s involvement to excuse Marshall Law, Globalization, One World Government, Cloning, Legal Slavery, Mutilation, Civilian Extortion, etc.

    So for those that continue to justify behaviors like this…..All I can say is if you have children, I dare you to teach them to live and learn like this. Nude, Humiliated, Tortured, Pissed on, Forced to perform gay acts, when you reproduce Life as a straight person, etc.

    There is NO excuse.

    Do I wish we were all on one big island where all races were butt naked having a party? Not at all. We can segregate as long as we respect each other for our differences, we can integrate as long as we respect each other for our original cultures, we can differentiate as long we respect. Just respect, for none of us have NOTHING to do with how this race got here or this religion got there.  Yet, the Amerikkan government and scientists are trying to control that too.

    Sincerely,

    Unfortunately, Born in the U.S.A. instead of Pluto

    ***presently building a Moving Truck prototype that can fly instead of drive, to the next fuckkin planet***

  32. USA!
    USA!
    USA!

    For any of you out there that are actually shocked to think that any POW’s are mistreated… wake up.  Is it right, is it fair?  Just because someone believes in the tooth fairy does not make it real (??)  There are bad actors and bad movies in hollywood but that does not stop the cry of our public for more! 

    Similar acts are carried out on the typical college campus in the name of hazing. 

    this is all political,  an act of desperation of left wing radicals,  why else would there be entry/comment about this and not about the Real American Hero Pat Tillman along with every other man and woman that his given their lives in war.

    God Bless America! and Americana! and Tex-Mex!

  33. My, I’m surprised at you Randall. This seems like an unusual response from you. Still, you want an entry about the “Real American Hero Pat Tillman” instead? Sure, I can whip up an article about him if you like.

  34. Maybe randork would like this quote from Tillman’s little Bro…

    “Pat isn’t with God, he’s fucking dead. He wasn’t religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he’s fucking dead.’’

  35. aMErican at May 4, 2004 03:23 PM
    I agree in some kind of torture for Iraq soldiers. Lets not forget why theyre in these camps in the first place alright.

    You appall me. Please read my post of May 3, 2004 11:26 PM particularly Article 0829 regarding threatment of prisoners of war. We are not about torture. Why were these prisoners in Abu Graib? Many of them were picked up on random sweeps without probable cause. In other words, they were picked up because they were Iraqis walking around on the street.

    Oh by the way, This stuff isn’t limited to Abu Graib. Prisoner abuse is systemic.

    randall at May 4, 2004 05:33 PM
    Similar acts are carried out on the typical college campus in the name of hazing.

    this is all political, an act of desperation of left wing radicals, why else would there be entry/comment about this and not about the Real American Hero Pat Tillman along with every other man and woman that his given their lives in war.

    Hazing on a college campus? Here are some quotes from Seymore Hersh’s article in the New Yorker

    Taguba

  36. Randell……..you are freaking creep and I only wish you were in one of those “camps” so you could get butt raped and broom handles stuck up your rear!!!!!  But hey you would like it im sure!!!!!!! “USA USA USA”……..yeah…right you freak!!! Dont be the loudest screamer when the Iranians come back for you……. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! You along with them freaks in the military all deserve the firing squad…….“USA USA USA”….scream it loud now you freak!!!!!!!

  37. One of the primary solutions that I’m hearing bantered around the mass media is the lowering the ratio of detainees to guards at these prisons.  They believe this was a contributing factor.

    Has anyone seen some numbers on this one?

    One the contractor note this raises concerns in other areas as well.

    With soldiers faced with life and death they are trained to respond to orders without much question.  It seems that having too many contractors in key positions could severely damper command and control.

    American - when was the last time you were in an Arab nation?  I know some wonderful people there that would love to meet you.

    Randall - This isn’t some propaganda parlor trick.  We’re talking about human beings here.  Both the right and the left have been trying to spin it to best of their advantage.

    You can spin, pray, smear, yell, curse and cry all day and at the end of the day you will be one day further from the solution.

  38. Well MildBill,

    You will never rid me of my maniacal dislike of Bush, I can’t even watch him on TV smirking and sniggering his way through some ‘folksy’ speech without wanting to shoot out the tube Elvis style.

    Now technically I never accused Bush of being the first to privatize the military, and you are right that Clinton started it, but think of it like NAFTA. Sure Clinton signed it (which I think was the real crime committed in his administration (please hold your Vince Foster theories until the end)) and I will blame Clinton for the exodus he ushered in with that deplorable piece of legislation. But when did America really start hemmoraging jobs (http://www.bls.gov/mls)(http://www.nber.org/cycles/november2001/)? Do you suppose that the businesses that have gotten so fat under this administration conspired to make their scion look bad by moving all the jobs overseas or was it because this administration made it easier and more attractive for them to do so? Same with the military contractors, Clinton may have opened the door but Bush broke it off it’s hinges, hooked a chain to the door frame, and tore the front of the house down.

    Bush is a lying smarmy skunk and if ever there was a hater of Bush it is certainly me but I won’t blame him for everything… Clinton IS the jackass that gave the monkey a loaded pistol.

  39. MildBill

    Outsourcing government jobs predates 1985. The agency that I worked for (71 to 85) ran the Polaris Missile Facility, Atlantic and later the Stragic Weapons Facilities on both coasts. The project that I worked on (training) obtained some pre PC services from POMFLANT. I remember that their IT folks had to go through an A76 competition sometime in the 80-85 time frame. I am pretty sure that A76 is a Reagan initiative. I suspect that it came out of the Grace commision report on improving government, honchoed by W. R. ‘asbestos’ Grace. I plead ignorant on FAIR.

    Eric

    I share your dislike of the President’s smug smirks—pause, raise head, face camera, smirk (Stage direction: American Flag in background.) My distaste is visceral

  40. sorry,

    my entry was mostly schtick,,,but hey les, i promise i did not get the frat idea from limbaugh. i am not sure when he mentioned it, but he probably got it from reading my post on this site.  i have been told he has used my stuff before!

    now on a serious note.

    i do think it is wrong to mistreat any human being.  I think it is wrong for the abuse that took place in this case in Iraq, the abuse that takes place in prision everyday, the abuse that does take place the avg. college campus, the abuse that takes place in many homes across america, and the mental abuse that takes place in some pulpits in our nations churches.

    But I also think it is wrong to make this Iraq thing a political issue.  I will not state my reasons why because I am sure most of you have heard similar arguments elsewhere.

    What these soldiers did in Iraq was the very thing we went there to stop.  So yes its wrong.  and i apologize for making anyone think I do not care about humans. or liberals.

  41. I would be most amused at the idea of Rush reading SEB, though I suspect he’d be ranting about it if he had.

    This “Iraq-thing” was a political issue long before the war ever started so it’s probably a bit late to worry about that happening.

  42. Eric

    I don’t mean to alter your opinion; I just don’t want that vein that pulses in your forehead whenever you hear the name Bush (sorry) mentioned, to explode!  I just wanted to let you know that all these things didn’t start with Bush (damn I did it again) nor will they end with him.

    Clinton IS the jackass that gave the monkey a loaded pistol.

    That quote is definitely the camel that breaks the back of the horse of a different color!

    Do you suppose that the businesses that have gotten so fat under this administration conspired to make their scion look bad by moving all the jobs overseas or was it because this administration made it easier and more attractive for them to do so?

    I believe the convention of evil, pro-Bush businessmen was held right after the Jews planning the WTC attack convention, but before the Black Helicopter convention.  I

  43. Your statement about Clinton was very clear—I was just trying to trace back, as best I could, to the beginnings of outsourcing. As I said I don’t know anything about FAIR. The subject never crossed my desk while I was a GS/GM government employee.

    Ah the WBS—knew them well and loved them (when I wasn’t frustrated).

  44. Mild Bill:

    > Ingolfson

    > A little too much caffeine bro?

    Too little, actually. It was late and I was in a bad mood. Sorry.

  45. If this is the kind of thing that has been hidden from the world (in a place where there are supposedly/hopefully UN observers) what about a place like Guantanamo bay, where not even Amnesty International has been given access to ensure that the unfairly held prisoners there are being treated fairly? It must be much worse than these pictures from Iraq if the US is so scared to let anyone into G. Bay.

  46. Is this the liberation that US was talking about? is this the democracy they want to spread around the world? All third world countries have dictatorship regimes but when such thing comes from a super (democratic) power it is a big difference. Thanks God for revealing the real face of such (superpower) and I believe the hidden abuses are much more than what we have seen.

  47. The prison abuse disclosures just get worse. Check out Mistreatment of Prisoners Is Called Routine in U.S. in today’s New York Times

    The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time.

    The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country’s criminal justice system.

    Mr. McCotter, 63, is director of business development for Management & Training Corporation, a Utah-based firm that says it is the third-largest private prison company, operating 13 prisons. In 2003, the company’s operation of the Santa Fe jail was criticized by the Justice Department and the New Mexico Department of Corrections for unsafe conditions and lack of medical care for inmates. No further action was taken

    later

    When Mr. Ashcroft announced the appointment of the team to restore Iraq’s criminal justice system last year, including Mr. McCotter, he said, “Now all Iraqis can taste liberty in their native land, and we will help make that freedom permanent by assisting them to establish an equitable criminal justice system based on the rule of law and standards of basic human rights.”

    Isn’t this rich? Aren’t we just swell?
    Fume, throw things. I’m going to the gym.

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