Oh, by the way… (formerly word on the new Matrix trailer)

**Updated: 10/21/2003**

This entry used to be about a new trailer for the third Matrix movie, but somehow it ended up becoming a long and convoluted argument about the existence of God and the idea of absolute morality. Seeing as the comment thread hasn’t had anything to do with the entry in a long, long time I figured I should just scrap the entry to avoid any further confusion. So, if you keep reading into the comments that follow don’t bother sending me email asking me what the hell it has to do with The Matrix because it doesn’t have anything to do with it.

180 thoughts on “Oh, by the way… (formerly word on the new Matrix trailer)

  1. what stops you from commiting suicide? what possible hope do you have? Your life is completly useless from your perspective. All you’ve got are a bunch of smart ass comments, and a website to make them on. All you do is argue, your probably thinking something up right now against this comment. Can’t you ever take anything to heart?
    joking aside,
    I pity you.

  2. Oh great! Thanks, Dr B. Did you even ONCE think about the implications of your comments?

    – Our building is now out a tech person.
    – I’ll have to go get coffee with somebody else
      in the morning AND our lunch routine is all
      screwed up.
    – I’ll have to find somebody else to brainwash
      me and turn me into a minion.

    You’ve really blown it.

    -JO

  3. Wow, you guys are classic! All you’ve done is prove what I stated earlier, nothing has any meaning to you, your so quick to defend yourself with your apparently “witty” comebacks. you guys are real geniuses…

  4. Yes and of course here we have a classic example of Trollus flatuous verbosa. Trolls aside though, that’s a pretty good trailer, I haven’t even seen reloaded yet so I’d better get my proverbial skates on!!!

    Oh and Dr B a word to the wise if you expect to be taken seriously here, then try posting like an adult and not a Troll, until then the jokes most assuredly on you. =P

  5. oh, my apologies serai, your holiness, I forgot how much wiser you are than me. What was I thinking?  Joking aside,  my original comment, not meant to be taken the way it was, should have been stated differently I do admit. It was more so directed at; what drives you to live when your life is a fluke? What reason is there for your being here? thats all, I’ll try not be “troll-like” if thats what you would have.

  6. brock, I get asked that alot, however I seldom answer due to fact that it won’t solve anything, they usually ask as a means to disprove my validity in what I have to say. I’ve learned alot from people, doctors or not. If i admit to being one people will come to the conclusion that I’m just some wacko dr.  but if I claim I’m not one, then comes the “your not a Dr? then your just some guy”. So I don’t see any benefit. I do love Science though i will tell you that!

  7. What drives me to live my life if it’s just a fluke? Well, there’s pissing off people like yourself for my own personal amusement. That’s one good reason.

    Allow me to reverse the question for a moment: Why do you assume that people who don’t believe in God have no purpose in life or that we lack hope or that we feel our lives are completely useless?

    Personally, I’d be more inclined to commit suicide if I honestly believed that the only reason I was created was to ass-kiss some self-important Deity for my entire life.

  8. Well, Dr B, excuse the assumption but it seems that if you have earned the title you would be proud to claim it. Also it seems that you underestimate by assuming we will disallow you credibility if you are “just some guy”. I don’t think being a doctor of anything gives one a leg up when it comes to understanding theology. Nor do I think being “just some guy” limits one’s ability to grasp theological concepts. Most are here to discuss life the universe and everything from their unique vantage points. Some simply desire to pass on borrowed and valued viewpoints that they feel adequately represent their core beliefs. Most of us have presumptions that we present and validate imperfectly, but we try.

    If you had said, “I’m not a doctor, I only borrowed the distinctive and respect engendering title”, I would have faulted you for being shallow and lazy. As it is, I don’t know how to take you; as you use the title of doctor, but refuse to qualify it. I’m tempted to dismiss you because you seem to lack trust in others and seem to lack confidence in your own ability to personify a title of distinction.

    Given what you’ve said before I suspect you may not be a doctor of anything, or perhaps you

  9. brock, I thank you for your response, I like the way you think. It seems you have a little more to say than those of the previous comments. I’m glad that you see that the title is irrelevant to the amount of ones knowledge.

  10. les, in answer to your question, the reason I assume this is because from your perspective, when you die, thats it. When looking at an eternity, that is the smallest little window of life. If being saved, or not being saved determines your eternity, why risk it? Even to speculate and say there is no God,  I’ve lost nothing. the other way around and your screwed.
    At least its more logical, thats all.
    Thats my first reason.

  11. Ah the old be a Christian to save your selfish arse argument, I like that one it’s a classic. Did it ever occur to you that some of us may not believe all that rubbish in the bible for good reasons?

    For myself I made the choice years ago that I would reject Christianity in fact I reject all religions, and if there is a god and I am ever brought to task for my life, I will at least be able to say, I did what I believed was right, not what someone else told me was right.

    I studied the bible for years, and I practiced as a Christian too, but when I finally challenged my own beliefs I discovered they were not based on the bible, in fact they aren’t based on any book, they are based on what I know for myself.

    I could just as easily tell you to lay a hecatomb upon the altar of Zeus, because hey you never know he might just be the true god after all. In fact why take chances, lets go and join all the religions we can find just to be safe. Until someone can offer something a bit more substantial about these issues of faith I am personally quite happy to keep my own.

  12. Well, you’ve managed to completely avoid answering the question, but let’s take a look anyway.

    les, in answer to your question, the reason I assume this is because from your perspective, when you die, thats it. When looking at an eternity, that is the smallest little window of life.

    And your point is… what, exactly? Your “answer” doesn’t explain why you’d think someone who believes that there’s nothing beyond this life to look forward to would want to cut their life short by committing suicide. Or why the lack of an afterlife removes hope from your current life.

    If anything, I’d think Christians would be doing everything they could to end their lives early. Heaven is supposed to be so much better than anything on Earth could ever be so why hang around here making us non-believers miserable? Yeah, I know it’s technically a “sin” to commit suicide, but accidents don’t qualify as suicides so I’d expect you guys to engage in all kinds of high-risk activities like sky-diving or swimming with sharks. Oops, forgot to pack my parachute correctly! Where’s my slice of Heaven?

    If being saved, or not being saved determines your eternity, why risk it? Even to speculate and say there is no God, I

  13. first of all, the job of christians is to spead the word to others, not to try to die because we want to get to heaven quicker, we’ll be there soon enough, we don’t live very long.
    secondly, you evaded my question first by reversing it on me, (your ridiculously hypocritical) and I answered it!
    You asked “why do I assume that atheists have no purpose in life?” so I stated one reason why.
    I ask you to answer my original question still.
    If your respose is “well, annoying the piss out of people like you” is your reason, then I suggest you get real and give me something to think about instead of something to laugh at.
    also, the reason for my belief is in the Bible, it’s the inspired word of God. No other religion, including evolution, stands anywhere close to what the Bible has to say, it lives up to itself! Obviously you don’t have to believe it, because we have free choice. I love the fact that if we do or don’t have free choice you would still protest. “ohh God doesn’t show himself enough.” or the flip side “If God forces us then we don’t have free choice, we’re robots.” I also love your bit about “At least I did what I thought was right, and not what someone else told me.” That’s brilliant, like you’ve got a leg up on everyone else, wow.
    did it ever occur to you that what you think is right, isn’t? do you somehow think that’s justification for you life? Man is with sin from the start and you think your judgement is valid against God’s?
    you must be really something.
    your relative thinking will get you nowhere, there are absolutes, and you know it.

  14. Oh Deja vu, methinks we’ve had this argument before, ah yes we have. I have already explained in great detail to a slightly less arrogant and judgemental Christian on this very site why I hold the view that I am in fact the best person to decide my own destiny. You may think it prideful of me, so be it, but what is more prideful to decide for yourself, or to presume to decide for someone else what is right and wrong?

    Yes it has occured to me that what I think is right may not be, and I really don’t mind being wrong do you? Have you ever thought to yourself ‘what if the bible is wrong?’. If God is silly enough to condemn me for not sifting through the 1000’s of religions who claim to be right, and for not discovering which one is really the extra super true path(tm) then I am sorry, but God is at fault not me.

    Life is way too short to spend it looking for answers under piles of bullshit, I think if there really is a true ‘way’ then we each have it within we don’t need some spurious book to tell us, and we certainly don’t need the self righteous to either.

  15. first of all, the job of christians is to spead the word to others, not to try to die because we want to get to heaven quicker, we

  16. serai, I’m not deciding for you what is right or wrong, i’m saying that there already is a right or wrong, and its God’s, not mine for you.
    You said “and I really don

  17. Les, to start with, I enjoyed reading your new site entry about the full moon or whatever, but who are the other “nut-cases”? Other than myself, who beyond a shadow of a doubt is one because you’ve said so. I’d be interested on reading their “lunacy”.
    You getting mad at my assuming of things always make me laugh, given the way you feel about hypocrisy.
    I liked the scaring of the children bit too, why don’t you just scroll up the page, take a quick look at that picture of yours and realize that you don’t need a full moon to scare small children, you could pull that off in broad daylight.
    But that aside, I realize your just poking fun at me, and I you, which is not the reason I post my notes.
    If you feel that personifying what I have to say into that of a raving loony will help your atheist friends realize how stupid I am, then feel free, you’ve already got the advantage arguing against me on this site as it is, (it’s your site, and it’s mainly non-Christians), but if you feel you need more advantage, go right ahead.
    The thing that you can’t seem to accept is that your life has an owner, its creator. You’re view wants so desperately do believe that you yourself are the God of your own universe. Which works out quite conveniently for you because that means, what you feel is right, is! The idea of being a “pawn” as you say, is so unbelievable to you because you don’t consider that your not in control, God is.

    I was never meaning to tell you that you should commit suicide, I was asking, from your perspective, why wouldn’t you? That’s all, you doing that is the last thing I would want.

    I realize now that you enjoy life because it can be joyful and whatnot, and that it is interesting to live. The only difference with my life, is that mine is like a really good book that I can

  18. No sorry I don’t believe in absolutes and yes I do believe in right and wrong being relative, clearly you believe different well that’s fine by me for you to have your own beliefs.

    You see the advantage I have over you is this, I have been where you are now, I have tried christianity and found it wanting, I doubt you could come to terms with my beliefs, but certainly have come to terms with yours. You are argueing from ignorance, whereas I am at least informed about what I reject.

    Believing something does not make it a religion, *sighs* we have also had this argument here before as well.

    taken from dictionary.com: Religion: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
    A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

    So in both my case and the case of Les believing in evolution I am afraid your use of the word religion is by definition wrong. Also I think you will find most adherents of evolution fully accept it as a theory and don’t go around making it a statement of absolute fact as you seem to do with the bible.

    You are dragging out the same tired old arguments, and then wonder why we lose interest in debating them with you.

    Truth be told I am quite happy to exercise my free will and believe exactly what I like, even your God allows us that right. I am not fearful of death or judgement, and I have really good reasons for that. Does it make you so insecure to think that someone can have inner peace without christianity?

    To conclude I am not trying to defend my beliefs here, as you will note I haven’t really even said what they actually are, suffice to say I am secure with them. I am not even trying to attack yours, if christianity is right for you then that’s wonderful go ahead and enjoy your life with my blessing. But here is the warning for you, enjoy your life and beliefs by all means, but do not go around tearing down other peoples to make you feel more secure in yours.

     

  19. Les, to start with, I enjoyed reading your new site entry about the full moon or whatever, but who are the other “nut-cases”? Other than myself, who beyond a shadow of a doubt is one because you

  20. Les, Wow, I just read a multitude of past comments, which I should have done from the start. And I apologize for bringing up such over-discussed issues on this site. I can see how annoying it must have been, and I thank you for treating me with at least a little bit of patience.
    A great deal of my questions for you were answered through reading it, I can’t say that I agree to most of it, but you do know your stuff.
    Hmm… you seem to really disagree with what Hovind has to say. You seem to have all these ironclad disproofs to him.
    So, (not as a threat or challenge) why don’t you go debate him? Honestly, I’ve seen 2 of his debates, and you seem to have a lot more to say than the guys he debated, I mean why not?
    He pays for the whole thing, he’ll finance you to come debate him, that

  21. serai, I’m sorry, your right in that the word religion, doesn’t spell out exactly that of an evolution believing atheist. But you guys put a slight twist on it. This “altered-religion” as I will call it is: people being too prideful in their selves and rejecting belief in a supernatural who gives the rules, then transfers that power to themselves, which you have conveniently done. So now you can decide the rules for yourself instead of the supernatural.

  22. No sorry you are incorrect in your assumptions about me. You are forcing me to abuse the power of the little blue boxes now.

    But you guys put a slight twist on it. This

  23. There are enough people engaging “Dr.” Hovind in debates that my involvement isn’t really necessary. This website is something I can do in my spare time whereas traveling around engaging the likes of Hovind would quickly become a full-time job that other people are definitely better qualified to do than I am.

    serai, I’m sorry, your right in that the word religion, doesn’t spell out exactly that of an evolution believing atheist. But you guys put a slight twist on it. This “altered-religion” as I will call it is: people being too prideful in their selves and rejecting belief in a supernatural who gives the rules, then transfers that power to themselves, which you have conveniently done. So now you can decide the rules for yourself instead of the supernatural. “sigh” which is a whole lot more enjoyable to you.

    I always love how folks such as yourself describe people who don’t buy into myths and fantasies such as God as being “prideful,” which is just another way of calling us arrogant. Everyone decides the rules for themselves, even believers. Hell, most Christians can’t even agree amongst themselves which rules in the Bible are ironclad and which aren’t. Whether you pick and choose from a predetermined list supposedly written by a supernatural entity or you figure out the rules using reason and intelligence doesn’t change the fact that we all decide for ourselves what is right and wrong and those decisions can change over time. Slavery, once condoned and supported by people and religions is now generally regarded as a “bad thing” by most people and religions.

    And instead of worshipping a god, yourself is who you worship.-This falls into the category of pleasures, etc, the “if it feels good do it” mentality. It

  24. les, I never once said devote your life to debating hovind and make it a full time job, I said just do it once. Set up a time with him and do it once, it’ll take no more than one day. I find it hard to believe you wouldn’t offer one day to support your cause, but spend countless hours responding to petty people like myself.
    If you think that there is enough people debating him already, your plainly wrong, he asks hundreds of profs all the time and all but a small few cower off. And the ones that do debate, get destroyed! helplessly destroyed.
    Don’t give excuses like your last please.

    also when you said this “It implies that all people look for something

  25. Hmmmm serai, here’s what I got when I looked religion up.1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
    2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
    3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
    4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

    taking a look at the bottom 3 meanings, if not at least the 2, I’d say maybe I don’t have to battle this argument as much as I have.
    and les, don’t give me your “It doesnt require any faith what so ever!” we see it today in nothing but micro-evolution, which IS happening today i agree, but there is no macro-evolution happening today, and don’t make time your hero here les.
    So until your virus turns into a frog or a banana of whatever you think it’s turning into, then stop claiming that micro-evolution if proof for macro, ITS NOT.

  26. I can see now that you have no intent toward having a serious discussion as you consistently ignore many of the points I raise to spew out the same tired old arguments we’ve been through before on this site including the argument that there isn’t any evidence supporting macro evolution when, in fact, there is. We’ve been there and done that. On top of that your inability to compose a semi-coherent sentence is taxing my patience. Go take some typing lessons and perhaps a remedial English class or two and try to develop some new arguments we’ve not heard a hundred times before and then come back and try to engage us with your witty banter and deep philosophical insights.

    So far you’re just another in a long line of broken records and if the folks who came before you weren’t successful at convincing us with their arguments then simply restating the same things they used isn’t going to work for you either.

  27. Forgive me if I bow out now, I am afraid it’s becoming pointless. You have nothing new to offer, and you continually miss the point of what I try to say.

    Fact of the matter is personally I will never accept christianity. I am happy enough with what I believe, and I am not out to win any arguments, because I know I am the best person to judge what is right for me, and I don’t care to judge what is right for anyone else.

    As I have always said it’s an insecure believer that strengthens his own beliefs by attacking other peoples.

  28. Dr. B,

    You seem to be of the kind that cannot grasp the concept of evolution, so you assume it isn’t valid. There is ample evidence of macro evolution, but if all you read is what creationist write, you will ensure your continued ignorance on the subject.

  29. Dr. B,
    I am a true doctor, MD and all.  To be more precise, I am an anesthesiologist.  You disgrace my profession with your rag-tag use of the English language and faulty illogical arguments.  Just a few questions for you, Dr. B:  How did you graduate from Medical School?  What state issued you a license to practice?  To be completely honest, I am embarrassed to be associated with a physician such as you.  Why do you feel the need to push your beliefs onto others?  It is assinine and pathetic.  There are imbeciles and morons in my profession, and I think you are the king of them all.  Jesus be damned!  I will eat your children and spit out their remains on your grave.  God bless you all, except for Les.  Join me in hell!
    Jesse VB, MD

  30. I hate to be one more to gang up on poor old Doc B, but I had to bow out once I saw how little he wanted to expand the barriers to his perception. I’m amazed the rest of you put so much effort into attempting to communicate politely. Dr. B you started the string full of anger and resentment. As it progressed, you continued to argue from an apparent perceived position of personal moral rightness and intellectual superiority. Have you met David? Perhaps the two of you would get along. Here’s hoping you can someday see past the fog obstructing your world view. No one should be that unaware.

  31. Ok, guys, haha I can’t be bothered any more, I’ve got enough people’s attention. hey Jesse, you got me, I do have bad sentence structure, and my spelling is nothing great either.
    And brock, your also right, I did start the strand with anger, and people dismissed it as “troll” work. Which it was, but I wanted to see if I could hold up for a while, and see how right these guys thought they were. so when asked earlier if I was a doc I created sort of a 1/2 way answer that left it a possibilty but nothing more.
    I must say, they do know alot more than me, especially les, he has done a lot more research than me,
    this is mainly because I’m 17 years old,
    you might have have brushed me off if you knew.
    I’m no doctor, so jesse you can just take it easy over there. once people read this it’ll be allll better, and you can stop freaking out.
    no, Dr. B is just a nickname.
    yes Brock, I too am amazed at how much attention that they’ve shown me, considering les is 36, I don’t know the age of the others but still, they’re not juniors. But here we are 36 messages later.
    All i’ve tried to do is argue my points to the best of my ability, given my wisdom verses theirs, (theirs is way more) I’d say I did an alright job, considering im still in high school.
    So les, who knows, maybe I’ll “wake up” one day like you did and realize there is no God, or maybe i’ll stay “blinded” the rest of my life. I’ll i know is that I’ve given my life to God, and a perfect being can tell me what to do any day, I trust him more than my sinful self to decide whats right and wrong.
    Well it’s been fun anyways, and I certainly learned a great deal.
    Thanks guys, especially les,
    hey les, you can add me to your long line of unsuccessfull prayer dudes.

    I’ll still be around to learn more and talk, but I wouldn’t imagine you’d want to talk to me anymore.  should I change my name? or do you guys care?

  32. Dr B, or “just some guy B”, I hope you don’t think you came across as much older than 17. There’s hope for you creating an independent mind set yet. Just keep in mind that life is full of mysteries and if there is a god, he won’t hold any grudges if we are decent but dumb. Not if he’s a god worth following.
    No hard feelings I hope. I do wish you the best and think it’s great that you want to talk. That’s the first step to any meaningful involvement. Peace out.
    Oh, you might consider changing your name though, simply because the one you used seems so pretentious and tainted. Just a thought.

  33. For the record I would never brush you off simply because you are 17 years old. I was 17 once myself and a different person back then. I suspected you were in high school based on how you wrote and the content of your messages. I am willing to discuss these issues with anyone who comes along regardless of age if they are interested in a serious discussion.

    Whether you wake up some day and take the blinders off, as you put it, is not as important to me as just getting you to think a little more about what you believe and why you believe it. I’m not trying to convert anyone to atheism, but I am trying to get more folks to think a little more than they do. You don’t have to resort to subterfuge to participate here.

  34. I can only second what Les said, I am happy to debate or discuss things with people, providing they are civil. Also I agree it’s not about ‘converting’ people to what we believe rather getting people to think about what they believe, it was thinking about my beliefs that caused me to change my views on a lot of things in life, and I am very glad that I did.

  35. Hey guys,
    My real name is Drew Baker, hence “Dr. B”
    but I will now just go by DB, to keep the peace between me and the real docs.
    Thanks IB Bill, for one of the only pieces of encouragement I’ve heard here.

  36. Hey les, that link that you posted on the hovind argument about “29 bits of evidence..”
    always errors when I click it, but I want very much to read them. Is there any way you can post it again? or at least just give me the website?
    Thanks

  37. DB, it’s unfortunate that you chose to recognize only IB Bill’s remark as one of encouragement. It seems to me that several people, including myself, welcomed you and wished you no ill. We wanted you to feel welcome to discuss whatever you felt important in as positive and effective a way as you could. But the only thing you saw as encouraging was a brief and vacuous remark of “Keep the faith….” Odd….and disapointing. Maybe you only want to believe we are non- supportive. Maybe you only feel comfortable with the blinders on. Anyway, nice to talk to you Drew…sincerely.

  38. Brock, I’m sorry, I should have said that bill’s comment was one that encouraged me personally in my faith, you unfortunatly can’t say what has or hasn’t encouraged me. Yes I have been encouraged to research and to become a better speller by you and the others, and thats all great too, but I hope you see now what I meant.
    Thank you for pointing out that I DO have blinders on.

  39. Vacuous?

    Lapidary, maybe, but not vacuous, Brock.

    Keep the faith, DB.  You don’t need blinders on to walk with God.  In fact, blinders are required to shut out knowledge of God.  Men hate the light because their deeds are evil, as the Good Book says. The knowledge of God is written on every human heart. 

    Or in the words of Oliver Wendell Jones of Bloom County fame, “The world is just too damned orderly to be a big (&()%^& accident.”

    Language, music, beauty, dance, mathematics … all these point not to accidental clumps of matter forming amino acids and eventually consciousness, but hint at something greater—a designer, a great engineer, an intelligence. 

    Any specific religion is a tough argument to make.  But theism, or at least agnosticism, is fairly easy.  Atheism is an act of faith. 

    At 17 you may hear a lot about educated people turning away from God.  Don’t necessarily believe it.  Many of the most brilliant people ever, from Socrates to Thomas Jefferson to Albert Einstein, believed in God. Don’t worry. God exists and He’s legit. His nature may be knowable or unknowable, we’re not sure.  But the truth is out there.

  40. Oooo. Lapidary, indeed. I wonder how many people were sent scurrying to their dictionaries over that one.

    Keep the faith, DB. You don

  41. Oooo. Lapidary, indeed. I wonder how many people were sent scurrying to their dictionaries over that one.

    C’mon, Les, was it the right word or not? 

    I could just as easily claim that, deep down, all believers know that God doesn

  42. If “keep the faith” can be construed as concise, precise, and refined then I’m thinking “trolls” are getting a bad rap on this site and elsewhere. “Drinks and driving don’t mix!” – now that’s concise, precise and refined! What you said was vacuous. Keep the faith in what? How do you know exactly what his faith entails? Should he keep his consciousness? His particular sense of self? Or should he safeguard “THE FAITH” and dispense it to others on a need to know basis only? Did he get “THE FAITH” from you and now you wish him to keep it for himself, not to share or trade it with anyone?

    I have another directive which is just as meaningful….“Carry on my wayward son!”

  43. Take it easy Brock, it’s a word.
    I’m sure he’s glad you’ve slammed him into the ground for using it. You’ve really made yourself look alot smarter for doing so.

  44. Hello all,

    Well, where do I start? I just came on this site, and there are so many messages to comment on. Firstly I would like to respond to Serai.  I must tell you all right away, that I, myself, am a follower of Christ and have committed my life to him.  Ok, Serai, you made some comments earier, on September 28 to be exact, about Christianity, and your views on the world.  There are a few questions that I must ask, along with some comments I wish to make regarding your post.  Firstly, if I may ask; are you a believer in absolute truth, or are you a believer in relativity? Would you agree that in this world there are some things that are undisputabley true? Obviously, there are laws which pertain to our universe that, as a whole, people believe to be true.  For example, I would be willing to gamble, that at least 99% of educated people in this world would say that the law of gravity is an absolute truth.  The few who choose to believe that the absolute truth of gravity does not apply to them, can easily impress me by dropping off of a skyscaper, free of any safety device and land safely on the ground.  I trust that you understand my point; that there are absolutes in this world.  Obviously there are ways to get around them, for instance, with regards to gravity, you can escape the natural work of gravity by using a parachute, or bungge cord etc.  I will move forward by making the following statement, that everyone in this world is a moral being.  Everyone has some sort of believe system by which they choose to live their life.  Even if one would claim to believe (which I believe is impossible), that there is no right or wrong way to live your life; the very fact that they say that shows, to me at least, that they do in fact believe in right and wrong. In other words, their impartiality to morals is their morally correct way of life. So, the bottom line is that everyone is a moral being. Where the controversy comes, and where I bring back the first part of this post, is when you ask the question, is there absolute right and wrong? We have established absolute truth in things such as gravity, or the laws of conservation of mass and energy etc.  You, Serai, have stated that if you end up facing a god (and I believe you will, the one true God of the bible), you will tell him that you did what you thought was right.  I see that kind of reasoning as very illogical, and to be quit frank, a copp out.  If morality is relative, and there is no absolute truth, then the sentence I just typed is irrelevant. Anything you believe is irrelevant!  If everything regarding morality is subjective to every human, then who desides the conduct that we should uphold in our society?  That means that how live our lives, is in the hands of other humans. Look in history at what happens when that power falls into the wrong human hands; Hitler, is a typical, but amazing example, of how the theory of relative truth is rediculous.  He believed what he did was right, and carried out some of the most heinous group of events recorded in history.  If there is a perfect being (Jehova God)to distinguish what is right and wrong for His creation, does that not make more logical sense, than us deciding for ourselves?

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