Gay marriages nothing out of the ordinary for the Dutch.

There’s an interesting article over at Washington Post.com on gay marriages and how they’ve become nothing out of the ordinary two years after being legalized in the Netherlands.  Despite the claims of opponents here in the States that legalized gay marriages would be the downfall of civilization as we know it, the Dutch appear to be surviving the transition intact and without any major issues.

Gay Marriage Becomes Routine for Dutch (washingtonpost.com)

While the United States fiercely debates the issue of allowing same-sex marriage, marriage for gay men and lesbians in the Netherlands has become so commonplace that today, two years after being legalized, it is hardly recognized as different.

As many as 8 percent of all marriages here are now between people of the same sex, according to gay activists. Gay men and lesbians advertise their marriages and host lavish parties for friends. And some of those who got married are getting divorced and paying court-ordered alimony.

So routine have same-sex weddings become here, said Krol and others, that gay men and lesbians are now facing some of the same social problems that have plagued heterosexuals for years when marriage goes sour.

The Netherlands now has the distinction of having the world’s first gay divorces, which must be obtained in court like any other divorce. Marital property must be split, and if one partner makes more money than the other, a court can require alimony payments.

Some gay couples, like their heterosexual counterparts, are opting for prenuptial agreements. “We’ve got a pre-nup,” said Robert van der Sanden, 30, editor of a teenage magazine called “Girlz!” who is busy planning an October wedding to his partner of four years, Gerard van Eldik, 39. “It’s for if we split up—so we know ‘what’s yours.’ ”

Yet more evidence that the only real difference between gay and hetero unions is the gender ratio.

39 thoughts on “Gay marriages nothing out of the ordinary for the Dutch.

  1. I have nothing against gay “unions”, but I don’t think the Netherlands is a good example to use.  In Amsterdam, not only can you legally buy and use narcotics, but you can also window shop for hookers.  I mean literally window shop; chicks are sitting behind windows in store fronts!  That

  2. This could be apocryphal, but Chairman Mao purported was once asked, “What do you think of the French Revolution.”  His answer: “It’s too soon to tell.”

  3. Gays are screaming “It is discrimination—let’s not write discrimination into the Constitution.”  How can gays be discriminated against over something – a law that never applied to them to begin with?

    Marriage is for a man and a woman—period and steeped in that

  4. Well, people used to “express themselves” plenty about having to share restaurants with them nasty darkies, but we didn’t let that stop us from changing the laws.  I sincerely doubt that your bile, prodigious as it is, will have much impact, either.

    “people are so fed up,” “people are so sick of it” “people have bitten their tongues for far too long over everything they are not allowed to do, say, think, feel or celebrate” 

    Yep.  They’re called gay people.  And whether you like it or not, they’re not about to shut up and go away just ‘cause they make you a little uncomfortable.

    And marriage is not JUST a religious institution—it carries a distinct legal and tax status with it.  You may not LIKE gay unions, but they exist. 

    I swear, between you and the people bandying the “N-word” around like there’s no tomorrow, it’s starting to feel awfully fifties in here.

    Whatever.  Society changes.  Some people can’t adjust.  It makes them very unhappy.  The rest of us just get on with our lives.

  5. Mild Bill—Europe isn’t the only place where you find a policy that allows gays in the military.

    Australia also has such a policy.  It doesn’t seem to be having much of an impact on their ability to field forces.

    There’s quite a few other countries that have policies that allow gays to serve, as well, and while some of them are not stellar examples of military prowess, some of them can manage to hold their own.

    Just seems to me that many of the arguments that people level against gays in the military sound VERY similar to the arguments that were brought out before minorities were allowed into the military, and before women were allowed into the military.

  6. ” How can gays be discriminated against over something – a law that never applied to them to begin with? “

    I missed the part that excluded certain groups of people. You sound like one of those sheet-wearing, loud-mouthed, bullhorn-toting, cross-burners who scream that ” ‘all men are created equal ’ never included ( anyone outside the white race ). ” Hetero power! Right?

  7. I agree with you Nowiser, sometimes it sounds like a Klan rally has broken out around here… but what do you expect when a Texan steals the White House? I just hope they don’t start burning the cross smileys on my virtual lawn.

    Jaileene, wow. I honestly do not know where to begin, there is just so much undisguised contempt, disgust, bile, and hatred in your post. First, if 100% of the people on Earth believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, or that the Earth was flat, or even that the Earth was supported in the heavens on the back of a tower of giant tortoises it would not make ANY of it true. Just because “the people” believe in something does not make it right, but that is not really what you are saying though is it? No, what you are REALLY saying is that all those damn liberals and homosexuals had better watch out because there is a large angry group of violent hate mongers that are poised to beat down any uppity gays or their liberal goon squads. You probably would have said it differently so as to make yourself look like less of a bigot but not too far under the surface you are one load of bed linen away from a pointy hood.

    I don’t understand people like you at all, but then my own brother who was raised by the same parents I was seems to be cut more or less from the same sheet as you. He was of the opinion growing up that everyone who looked at him was gay and looking to get his sweet ass into bed, apparently to a gay man my brother was like catnip. I don’t think he ever mentioned that someone had ever actually propositioned him, or fondled him, or even winked at him but he was so damn…paranoid. Did that happen to you too Jaileene? Is that what scarred your psyche and caused so much anger and hate to build up? Or maybe it is because no one ever did…

    Most of what I could say to refute you can be found on Natalie’s site so I will not bore any of her readers by repeating here what she has already so eloquently said in her own blog.

    And damned if Covie didn’t beat me to all the Klan references before I had a chance to hit post…

  8. Jaileene, what in the hell are you talking about? Please tell me how exactly your hypothetical marriage is harmed by two lesbians down the street being able to get health insurance through one of their employers? Or how your marriage is harmed by two men who don’t want to be thrown out into the streets from a house they’ve shared for 30 years if one of them dies? Or any other way?

    Tell me exactly how you or your marriage is harmed. And try to doing it without using the phrase “sanctity of” or some such thing.

  9. Consummate: to complete (a marriage) by the first act of sexual intercourse

    Intercourse: sexual relations, esp. coital relations

    Coitus: sexual intercourse, esp. between male and female humans; copulation

    Based on the above, how is it impossible to define marriage as anything other than between heterosexuals?

    Yes, I too am deeply offended by the passing of gay marriages/civil unions, and it has nothing to do with religion or politics; nor am I a bigot like you called Jaileene because you couldn’t look at things more objectively.

    There was a lot of truth to what Jaileene said when viewed as not a personal attack, but as an overview of what could happen.  I didn’t see Jaileen spewing venom or using terms resembling the “N” word.  I didn’t see Jaileene state anything from a personal point of view, or say she hated gays, but all of you personally attacked Jaileene for pointing out, based on how society is, the things that could happen if people are in a particular frame of mind over this.

    My opposition to gay marriage has everything to do with the fact that what my spouse and myself share, along with millions of other heterosexual couples, while not threatened, is no longer something special. Marriage has been sanctioned by society as heterosexual for centuries.  Do you really think people will accept gay marriages “just like that”?  Yes, it is a reality for gays that marriage is for them, but look at it from another perspective, as horrible as you think that other perspective is.  That is a reality too!

    I cannot really explain my feelings on this the way that I would like to, partially because I too am so upset over all these “special people” (not only gays) getting all these “special rights”—hijacking every issue and making it about THEM, going above and beyond to take full advantage of the overly politically correct state of mind that has shamefully come to be in this country!

    Whether it be bans on peanut butter or legalization of gay marriage, or trying to take the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance, pushing the boudaries has spun out of control.

    Gays want acceptance – they got it. They wanted a SEPARATE school in NY – they got it. Now they want marriage?! Someone needs to draw the line somewhere!

  10. You don’t like “special people” getting “special rights”, yet you’re opposition to gay marriage is because YOU won’t be “special” anymore?

    My opposition to gay marriage has everything to do with the fact that what my spouse and myself share, along with millions of other heterosexual couples, while not threatened, is no longer something special.

    Well isn’t that spayshul.

    I don’t need the government to tell me I’m special.

    Although marriage may be something religiously or spiritually special to some people, as it pertains to government, it’s just a legal state of being. OK, call it a civil union and let them have the civil benefits of marriage. Now do you feel “special” enough?

    I too don’t like “special” laws, I personally am against Affirmative Action, 8A government-coddled companies, and the like. I don’t like any legislation that gives someone an unfair advantage.

    But gay marriage (or civil union) isn’t doing that. Were black people asking for “special” rights to eat in the same diner as whites? Your logic suggests that was the case. Damn, who do those blacks they think they are? Wanting the same rights as white people, as if they’re equal or something in the eyes of the government.

    Nobody is saying your church has to perform gay marriages. But gays aquiring the LEGAL benefits if marriage doesn’t make your marriage any less special. You’re no better if only by comparison.

    OFF TOPIC: And the word God should come out of the Pledge of Allegiance, as it was never in there originally, but especially because it doesn’t belong. I should be able to Pledge allegiance to my country/flag without simultaneously being forced to profess a belief in God.

  11. Hi everyone.  I just wanted to say I understand where each one of you is coming from,  and after reading each of your comments I can relate to what you’ve said in some sense.

    Lets forget for a minute about who is on what side of the discussion,  whether I’m a democrat or republican,  what state I’m from, etc.  None of that is important.

    I’m a human being.  All of you are also humans.  Now,  in order for us to get along with eachother in a society we’ll need to have love for eachother by recognizing that we’re all humans, and we deserve to be treated equally, respected, and loved.

    It really doesn’t matter what religion you are, what you look like, or what car you drive… you still have a human brain, just like I do.  You need the same things that all humans need:  Love, from other humans. 

    As a human in a loving society you should be given the chance to live life happily, marry someone you love, and raise a family should you feel inclined to do so.  There should be absolutely no question as to whether or not you should receive the same health care or financial benefits as someone else.

    I’m not here to take sides,  I’m just here to point out the obvious:  We’re all humans and we should all treat eachother the same way we expect to be treated in return. 

    I think of bigotry and discrimination as societal diseases.  I refuse to get angry or upset at those who do not treat other humans as equals.  I understand that they did not inherit the societal diseases by choice,  just as no one asks to get cancer.

    I’m here to help cure the disease, by spreading positive messages that will improve the growth of our society, and in doing so, helping others to pass on this message, and cure.

    I’ll give you a simple analogy to help you understand this point of view.  Imagine humans as cells,  and the human body as society.  Cells must work together, as a team,  in order to keep your body in good health and working order,  just as humans must unite in order to keep society together. 

    Imagine what would happen if your cells spent their energy attacking eachother,  preventing eachother from gaining access to certain parts of your body during an infection,  and didn’t recognize and treat the other cells as equals.

    The outcome would of course be fatal.  Almost all problems in society stem from people not treating eachother as people.  Wars caused by religion are a prime example of this. 

    I’ve thought about solutions that would help our society move in the right direction,  and this involves many changes, particularly to the educational system, which needs to be highly improved, and funded accordingly.

    I won’t get into all that at the moment, but I’ll be glad to share later should anyone be interested.  I do want to leave you with one final note.  When you are discussing your opinions with others, no matter what ‘side’ you’re on,  try to avoid personal attacks and excessive rhetoric in your message, as it does little to validate your reasoning.

  12. Brandi, you are bitter as they make ‘em!  Stop living in the past – a past that you likely weren’t even a part of.

    Aren’t there forms you can sign to make everything legal?  In some states there is a form for choosing a medical proxy.  There is Power of Attorney, Executor of Estate, etc.  If everything is made legal, people can choose whomever they want for whatever they want in the event of illness or death.

    About health insurance: if you are employed in a state that recognizes civil unions, but the parent company is based in a state that does not, will you still be allowed health benefits?

    Federally, death benefits will not happen, as it is a state by state case of recognition.

  13. Me? Bitter? You’ve got to be kidding me. I’m the happiest, most relaxed person I know. Although I do like to argue. And I get a little quivery and salivate when I run across ignorant people.

    What past am I living in again? I think I just made an correlation to an old familiar argument to make a point. What is it that makes me bitter?

  14. Oh, see I just realized that “ccc” and “not a bigot” are the same person. I thought there was another random person jumping in an attacking me, when it was really just a repeat poster trying to pretend to be someone else…assumedly to bolster perceived support.

    I’m still awfully curious to hear what makes me “bitter”. That seems to imply I have a chip on my shoulder about being wronged somewhere down the line.

  15. I almost choked on the apple I was eating trying to laugh when I read CCC’s acusation that Brandi is bitter. Angry perhaps, irritated surely, but bitter? 😀

    Consummate: to complete (a marriage) by the first act of sexual intercourse

    Intercourse: sexual relations, esp. coital relations

    Coitus: sexual intercourse, esp. between male and female humans; copulation

    Based on the above, how is it impossible to define marriage as anything other than between heterosexuals?

    What a stupid argument. Most marriages are about more than merely sex and there are more than a few that are never consumated, odd as that may be. Additionally, there’s nothing about the definition of “intercourse” you provide that indicates it’s only applicable to heterosexual couples. Nor is there anything about the definition of “coitus” you provide which indicates it’s strictly applicable to heterosexual couples either. It merely points out that it is especially applicable to sex between a male and female, but doesn’t limit that as being the only possibility. This has to be one of the lamest attempts at an argument I’ve seen on this issue in a long time.

    Yes, I too am deeply offended by the passing of gay marriages/civil unions, and it has nothing to do with religion or politics; nor am I a bigot like you called Jaileene because you couldn

  16. Nah, not angry or irritated either, really. No more than an athlete is angry or irritated while playing the sport he loves. Arguing is my sport. It makes me happy.

    It makes me feel “special”. HA! Couldn’t resist.

    I sleep like a baby every night and don’t sit around wallowing in anger at the world after I log off…I’m just more sharp-tongued than many and don’t roll my statements in sugar before lobbing them out there.

    I’m not kidding. I’m the most relaxed and laid back person I know….just mouthy. I take “live and let live” very seriously. But I will admit getting angry when anyone tries to mandate how other people are supposed to do their living.

  17. You have what you feel is a valid argument, and I have some very strong convictions about marriage being between men and women.  You might be very surprised to learn that this “special” evil witch with the lame argument is not against gay relationships by any stretch of the imagination. It is use of the word “marriage” that gets to me.

    If that surprised you, this will shock the s**t out of you.  Say hello to Darryl, guys!  He is sitting right here as I type this.  He is one of my best friends.  And guess friggin what?  He is gay!  Excuse me, he corrected me—he is “very gay”. 

    Darryl supports the opposition on this issue.  He claims that makes him a traitor, but says it is okay because he is already hated for being, in his words, an Oreo.  Oh my friggin’ God, the “special” evil witch isn’t a racist either – she hangs out with “blackies” from the back of the bus!

    Darrly read everything on this site and is amazed at all the “fur flying” in here!  Les, Darryl has a new name for you honey.  Alexis (meow)!

    See, while my friend here feels deep love and respect for his man Tim, and plans on spending the rest of his days with him, he feels that “marriage” is for heterosexuals, as in his parents’ marriage of over 40 years.

    The consensus seems to be, with most of our gay friends, that marriage isn’t for same the sex.  Another shocker, eh?  Miss Special hangs out in a gay circle, watches The L Word and goes to gay bars.

    I’m not spewing hatred, as I can’t – and won’t because I love Darryl too much and I respect him and who he is.  Any one of you would be lucky to have him.

    We both want to know why no one answered, or had anything to say about the ways to make it legal that were mentioned, at Darryl’s suggestion might I add, since he and Tim have done this themselves.  Does it offer an alternative that doesn’t coincide with your views so it is no good?

  18. First of all, I thought you were a guy. Not that it matters, but I apologize for my misconception.

    I’m glad that you have gay friends (hi Darryl!), I have quite a few as well. Also have black friends. A one is black/asian AND gay. I WIN! Actually, none of those “one of my best friends is…” arguments goes very far. I consider it somewhat a given, unless one lives in a racist/fundie bubble. If I can have gay friends here in the deeeeep South, i assume everyone else is just swimming in them. We have a shortage here, IMO. This place could use some livening up…

    Darryl’s opposition, IMO, doesn’t make him a traitor. Just being gay doesn’t mean he has to jump on every bandwagon that goes by with his flag on it. I understand that there is some disagreement in the gay community about marriage. Something about marriage taking away the essential “otherness” of a gay relationship or lifestyle. And I can understand that, too. Maybe they don’t want to live under the societal mores than come with a “marriage”. If I was gay, I doubt very much I would want to get married. The “otherness” is attractive to me in some sense. But not everyone feels that way.

    There’s plenty of straight people who don’t feel the need for that “piece of paper” to validate them. Good for them. Certainly doesn’t mean that piece of paper should be denied to the straight people who DO want it.

    The fact that we can find SOME gay people who disapprove of gay marriage by no means supports the argument against it. That implies there should be some concensus in the Big Secret Gay Meeting on how exactly one is supposed to “be gay”. And I still can’t understand why anybody, gay or straight, should get wound up about denying someone else something they want, especially when it has no effect on them.

    We both want to know why no one answered, or had anything to say about the ways to make it legal that were mentioned, at Darryl

  19. I find it truly ironic that I, a straight white guy, am stuck in the position of arguing the defense of the civil rights of the gay community with a gay black man (or at least with his stenographer). I know that Darryl is both black and gay (I was introduced to him at least once by Les) but that does not automatically give him the trump card to use in all arguments that center around his sexual preference or race. When you discount the arguments based on fear, ignorance, moral outrage, and petty meanness it all boils down to will we as humans continue to accept discrimination based on X. Are we evolved enough to CHOOSE what is right even if it makes us feel uncomfortable, or will we continue to organize our society in pecking orders so we can always feel superior to someone else, driving out the members of the pack we perceive to be weaker or different?

    To say that marriage has always been about a union between a man and a woman so should always be between a man and a woman is like saying that because the train was the pinnacle of engineering and transportation when it was developed the Wright brothers should never have attempted to build an air plane.

    Some could argue that cancer is God’s will but does that stop us from trying to rid ourselves of it? Although a mutation, cancer is alive (not sentient obviously, but alive) so should religious zealots begin picketing Oncology centers, or killing Oncologists? If I squeeze my eyes shut I just picture the picketing woman being dragged away by police screaming “but what about the tumors, won’t somebody PLEASE think about the tumors!?”.

    Sometimes when people take a step forward and try something different it turns out to be an abysmal failure, but if that happens you can always step back. The current protests against gay marriage is like one big argument to remain paralyzed for all eternity. Have you ever watched a kid who has over protective parents? They are afraid of EVERYTHING! Don’t touch that, don’t put that in your mouth, quit scratching or it will scar, oh dear where are you hurt? The kid is a frazzled bundle of nerves who winds up afraid of anything unfamiliar.

    Maybe we are just too different to see things eye to eye, I mean I was the kid who got a pebble stuck in his nose because he wanted to see how far it would go. I also got pretty banged up when I jumped off the back of a moving car because I figured if Wile E. Coyote could step off of a falling piano before it hit the ground and be none the worse for wear then I could easily land on my feet if I just pushed off hard enough from the trunk… I also have stories where I took a chance and wound up getting something wonderful for my effort but those aren’t all that funny. Even though I have done some serious hurt to myself by making some pretty dumb decisions I survived them, and learned never to trust my brain when it starts by saying “you know what would be REALLY cool?”

    In the end all I can say is that when ever I see one person being denied something another person can have based on some arbitrary set of rules it will always set me off because it isn’t fair. Maybe life isn’t fair, but that isn’t going to stop me from trying to make it.

  20. CCC your comments and trail of pseudo-names seem more like desperate ideas pulled from a hat than actual responses to the other posts here. While Brandi, Les, and others certainly hold their own, the best argument for allowing gay marriages would be simply to let you go on.

    Unlike Brandi, I am angry. My life is by no means miserable for it, but I am not shy about placing that anger on the tip of my tongue and fingertips when I am presented with the utter stupidity and “klan” mentality that is f*cking everything up for the rest of us. Dave, got to love your position, but sometimes I cannot stand there. I have to say it: diseased or not, the Stupids have reached all the way up to the White House, and quite frankly, it is scary. People are discriminated against at best and dying at – sometimes – worst for the same reasons over and over again, and I’ve reached a point of total frustration with the inability of the general public to just catch on already.

    Throughout history there has ALWAYS been some group of people who have been made to stand apart from the others. And throughout history, eventually, people thought better than their predecessors – and this begins with the children, I think, who end up making friends with members of the current outcast group. These kids begin to see right through the prejudices (example: Jamal isn’t a thief). Bam! Gradual, collective mental evolution begins. That most certainly is my own little theory, but I think it is a couple steps up from the tired ” but I have gay (and/or black) friends. “

    My name is Covie, and I am angry. My father did not lose himself to the Viet Nam War for WHITE STRAIGHT PEOPLE. That flag does not fly for WHITE STRAIGHT PEOPLE. Gay marriage is a civil rights issue, and we have been here before.

  21. Thanks Brandi, seriously, for the enlightenment on the legalities.  I guess it depends on your state.  I am not married in the eyes of the church you know.  This is my second marriage so the Vatican excommunicated my ass.  We eloped and got a JP so I got me a real civil union going here, don’t I?

    And Covie?  Pseudo-names?  So I am a liar now on top of being an ignorant racist and hating gays (which is bulls**t)?  Screw you.  You are angry alright – it shows in your little meow fests.

  22. First of CCC, we don’t have any real reason to believe that your friend Daryl actually exists or that he’s anything like you describe him. Certainly it’s possible, though awfully convenient for your argument, and I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    That said, as Brandi has already pointed out, it doesn’t matter if your black gay friend Daryl agrees with you that marriage should be restricted to straight couples only. I’m certain I could find individuals among the gay people I know (and I know more than a few) who honestly believe marriage should be left to the straight couples. There were black slaves who honestly didn’t think that slavery should be ended as well for whatever reasons they may have had.

    Simply because you can find people who are denied their civil rights who think that’s as it should be doesn’t mean we should continue to deny them their civil rights. In the end if gay marriage is allowed and your friend Daryl doesn’t want to get married then guess what? He doesn’t have to get married much the same way that heterosexual couples who stay together, but never get married don’t have to. If there are gays who feel marriage is only for straight couples there’s nothing about the legalization of gay marriage that will force them to have to marry their gay partners. It merely gives them the choice whether to do it or not the same as heterosexual couples currently have.

    As for whether there are other legal alternatives to calling it marriage such as the proposed “civil union” concept, all I can say to that is: If the only difference between one and the other is the friggin’ name then there’s no reason not to call it a marriage. That’s known as “splitting hairs” and it’s generally considered a silly activity by reasonable people. Congrats on getting hitched via a Justice of the Peace, but you don’t have a “civil union” you have a “marriage.” I did the same thing and I still had to apply for a “marriage” license and I still have a “marriage” certificate. The fact that a judge did it instead of a clergyman doesn’t change the fact that I had a marriage.

    Honestly, if you’re that hung up over the word marriage I suggest you seek out some counseling.

  23. I read these post and I think BLAH BLAH BLAH (I’ve spent the last hour soaking them up!)  LOL I’m a natural-born homosexual from Idaho and not an active supporter of the gay community but I believe that everybody should have the right to marriage regardless of who or what you are.  That’s all I got to say about that.  LOL

  24. Les and Covie, I went from typing the ‘subject’ of my post one time in the ‘name’ section to using my initials going forward.  That makes me a pseudo name?

    I realize that when you put yourself out there on the Internet you open yourself up for all types of comments and 9 out of 10 times I’m not bothered by that.  However, there are times, such as now, when I’m simply astounded by another

  25. aeiou… What more needs to be said? You’ve stated your opinion and moved on. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    CCC, show me where I’ve said a damned thing about the change in the name you used to post under. I have kept my comments strictly related to the piss-poor argument you’ve tried to put forth and rather than address the counter-points I’ve raised you’ve proceeded to avoid the issue by bitching about perceived insults to yourself both real and imaginary.

    Do I consider my opinion superior to yours? Based on the reasons you’ve provided for your opinions I’d say absolutely and I have no problems with that. I’m arrogant for doing so? I can see where some might think so, but then I’ve never claimed that I wasn’t at least a little arrogant. You have to have a touch of arrogance and narcissim to put up a blog in the first place, let alone one that features your big ugly mug in the upper left hand corner. In addition to these two sins I’m also guilty of thinking myself above average in intelligence compared to my fellow Americans, I can sometimes be selfish, I’m often whiney, I am commonly sarcastic and given enough time I could probably come up with a few more aspects of my personality that could be considered negative.

    What sets me apart from you is that I recognize these things about myself and I accept that they are a part of who I am whereas your only means of coping with your flaws seems to be to attack the flaws of others. Brandi’s bitter, Covie and I are narcisistic psuedo-intellectuals, etc. and so on.

    OK, now tell us something we don’t already know. Or better yet, try addressing the counter-points we’ve raised to your rather stupid argument for your point of view.

  26. Dammit, I want to be a narcisistic psuedo-intellectual. Now I know what I want to be when I grow up…

  27. Oooh, Brock, I love it when you alliterate!

    How do we fit the image of butt sex into the blessed sex concept

    LOL!  Someone’s rollin over in their grave right now; I’m not sure who, but someone sure is!

  28. OH, WAIT, WAIT

    (I’ve got a better one!)

    How do we fit the image of butt sex into the blessed sex concept?

    Uhm.  Ask a priest?

    Ok, that was low.

  29. Everyone may have the right to pick the partner they choose but I don’t think it’s fair to their children that they adopt/surrigate/artificial insemnation to be raised by two parents of the same sex.  Gays shouldn’t have children.  How would you like to be raised that way?  I know that lots of kids have just one parent raising them in broken homes and you’ll say that two loving parents of the same sex is better than that but that messes with their minds.  Kids at school will make fun of them and that’s the least of their problems. It’s Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

  30. Yep, I was wondering when the “Adam & Steve…” crap would pop up!
    Strangley enough, there have been lots of happy families with 2 dads or 2 mums. How exactly does “it mess with their minds” ? Got any proof that shows kids raised by homosexual couples are in any way fucked up by their upbringing?

  31. I watched a program about kids being raised by homosexuals and the kids spoke about their feelings and all of them said they feel very uncomfortable about how people perceive them and had to grow up defensive and take a lot of heat from kids at school and all of the stares.  I do not know how having homosexual parents influenced their sexuality.  I wouldn’t want two parents of the same sex, would you?  hehe, you didn’t particularly like hearing the Adam & Steve saying again?  Oh well.

  32. Once again someone is justifying denying equal rights based on how society’s kids will treat other kids. Would it ever occur to you, “learning my vowels”, that the best way to deal with it is to teach children better than to make fun of someone they don’t understand, or are vowels the only things you’re learning?

    I wonder if you even begin to see the irony in your stance. Children feel bad about homosexuality because they are taught to feel that way, and you’re saying the best way to be fair with them is to limit their perceptions.

    How old are you anyway?

  33. Thanks, Brock! You jumped in before I surfed back here!
    I couldn’t have put it better myself. So I’ll just say “What he said!”
    I won’t care if my mum met and fell in love with another woman, or my dad with another man. All that is important is that I would hope they love and cherish each other, exactly like any other relationship.
    It wasn’t so much not liking the Adam & Steve comment, just boredom at hearing it again! Can we have something new and maybe funny?
    So, how old are you “learning my vowels”?

  34. I watched a program

    (Ricki Lake as social scientist. . .)

    LMV is right.  Kids with gay parents will be picked on at school.  Gay adoption should therefore be made illegal.

    In accordance with this philosophy, children should also not be allowed

    to be fat
    to be smart
    to wear non name-brand shoes
    to have braces
    to belong to an ethnic minority
    to have a “non conforming” lunchbox
    to remain seated during the pledge
    to be unlike their peers in any way shape or form.

    ‘cause it’ll make ‘em uncomfortable, and children need to be sheltered

    DO IT FOR TEH CHILDRUUN!

    (on a side note, TMV, if you’re really worried about damage to children, social stigma, and the long term effects of same, you might want to look at the stats on how children who spend their entire lives in foster homes “turn out.”  You could also look at stats on children raised in single-parent families, and draw some rather interesting comparisons.  If “saving” children from gay parents means the kids end up f(*ked up for life, you’re not really doing the best thing for them now, are you?)

  35. Thanks nowiser and Tish, for being of those voices of reason I spoke of earlier. “learning my vowels” needs to decide whether s/he is against gay marriage based on psychological health considerations or on religious beliefs. While the psychological concern for adopted children is perfectly valid and needs to be considered in any adoption process, somehow I don’t think that’s really why s/he is against the concept; (e.g. the Adam and Steve worn out remark).   

    Your point nowiser, about asking a priest, was even funnier to me because I had a discussion on another blog concerning this issue. Someone there said “What people do sexually is no one else’s’ business. Anyone obsessed with someone else’s sexual habits is the one who has the problem.”

    My response was to agree in spirit by saying:
    “What people do sexually should be no one else’s business, but try telling the Catholic priests that….wait, that doesn’t quite work. Er…well, try telling the ‘moral majority’ and the religious right that.”

    Of course I think there are limits and expectations and the decision to have a legal relationship should be between two consenting adults, but right now the decision is between two consenting adults and Lady Liberty. I hope she’s still an idealist. 

  36. I think same-sexed marriage should be allowed. Have yet to formulate a 10 myth of same-sex marriage type of argument. Perhaps if I had time to reformat this argument around. But anywho.

    1) Vote:

  37. I am old enough to vote.  I will vote for what I believe is right and you may do the same.  Is that the reason you want to know my age?  If same sex marraiges become legalized in this nation then you can adopt your children since you can’t have them the God-given natural way and teach them all about how homosexuality is normal.  Sure, we’ll all get used to the new law because every living thing adapts.  Maybe this is what the future has in store for humankind??:

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