Latest snake-oil scam: Philip Stein Teslar watch.

In addition to magnetic bracelets and shoe inserts to aid in healing and electrocution belts for weight loss, consumers looking to waste money on products with dubious medical claims can now blow their earnings on a watch that claims to protect your body from “electronic pollution” in the form of magnetic fields.

Wired News: A Watch Powered by Snake Oil

The Philip Stein Teslar watch contains a chip that works with the battery and coil to create a frequency that neutralizes the electromagnetic fields emanating from devices like cell phones, computers and radios, according to the company.

Research links electromagnetic fields with several health problems like headache, fatigue and memory loss, the company said. Those who wear the quartz watch allegedly sleep better, experience less stress and have improved concentration and more energy, it claims.

“It shields the body from these electromagnetic fields, and then the body can be more effective in taking care of itself and its immune system with those unwanted fields thrown off,” explained Ilonka Harezi, head of research for Teslar Inside, which manufactures the watch. “With us sticking cell phones to our heads, we need that protection,” Harezi said.

But others say the company’s claims are a bunch of bunk.

“There is not a chance in the world that (these types of devices) will do anything but lighten your wallet,” said John Moulder, a professor of radiation oncology at the Medical College of Wisconsin, who said he’s seen a slew of products that claim to do the same thing, including radio-frequency-proof lingerie.

Despite there being absolutely no scientific evidence that magnetic fields have any discernible effect on the body, and that’s something that has been studied extensively, the watches are being sold at such upscale stores as Bloomingdale’s New York and Royal Jewelers in Massachusetts for prices starting at $600 and going up to $2000 for one covered in diamonds. Needless to say, the watches are a hit among various celebrities and athletes and the clueless in general.

That’s it. I’m tired of being the only one who’s not making tons of money off of peoples’ stupidity and gullibility. I’m going to develop my own highly over-priced craptastic product with dubious medical claims that you don’t really need and start selling it to clueless idiots so I can be rich too. Perhaps it’s time I follow through on developing a patented Anti-Alien Anal Probe Ass Shield for people suffering from occasional alien anal probe syndrome. There certainly seems be enough of those people around judging from all the news items I read about it.

Link via Boing Boing.

541 thoughts on “Latest snake-oil scam: Philip Stein Teslar watch.

  1. I found this alien abduction test and took it out of curiosity, it gave me a 72% liklihood that I had been abducted by aliens!!! 😮 So umm any chance of a discount on your anti alien ass probe thingie then?

  2. I only scored 42, but “two-fifths ain’t bad”.  If I was you Serai, I would buy both the AAAPAS and the Quad E…your chances of being abducted exceed the maximum specs for my device alone smile

  3. Your obviously do not own a Teslar watch; or know much about the eletromagnetic patterns of our planet.

  4. No, I don’t own a Teslar watch and yes I do know quite a bit about the electromagnetic patterns of our planet. Enough to know this watch is bullshit. Care to elaborate?

  5. i do believe in the Teslar enough to wear it for almost 4yrs now. I am also an employee of Teslar. I hear stories everyday of people who are greatful to finally have relief from their constant headaches and pain. I know several doctors who recommend these to their patients. I think that maybe this technology is hard to understand to people who don’t wide their minds to diffrent things. Alot of people believe in the traditions on medicine and some believe in the best of alternative med. Though it is your right to not like Teslar and that you are by far the most negative person I met and would probably not like a Teslar because it might actually make you happy. I love my job and I am very happy to help those in need. I talk to some of the best people in the world at this job and I also recomend that you read a great book called The Resonance in Residence and then maybe Ilonka and you can actually have a professional talk out the technology behind all of this. You shouldn’t talk bad about the stuff you have no idea about.

  6. i do believe in the Teslar enough to wear it for almost 4yrs now. I am also an employee of Teslar. I hear stories everyday of people who are greatful to finally have relief from their constant headaches and pain. I know several doctors who recommend these to their patients. I think that maybe this technology is hard to understand to people who don

  7. Les, I am a Teslar wearer and I can assure you, it is not a scam! For 10 years I suffered everyday from fibromyalgia. They cant explain what causes this but 10 million people suffer everyday with no hope of relief. After being poked and proded, doped and nope hope. Out of desperation I tried a Teslar watch. You cannot even fathom the difference in my life! Just as you know nothing of agonizing illness, you know nothing of researching your comments and critizing bullsit! There is plenty of documentation on EMF and proof of its ability to harm humans and animals. Try spending a little more time educating yourself on your topics before you spread your pesimistic views to people who are in dire need of optimistic ones. Do some good for the world for once in your miserable life! Remember just because Les doesnt know about it doesn’t mean it can’t exist.

  8. Brock, yes I do mean to suggest that homeopathy is a quack science. Every major study that has aimed to prove their effectiveness has turned up nothing to support their claims. At it’s best it works only as a placebo and at it’s worst it can be dangerous.

    Horseheart, you’re offering nothing to support your claims just as the two Tesla fans before you didn’t. Personal anecdotes don’t amount for shit compared to hard data. Put up or shut up. I’ve been following the studies of EMF over the years and so far the studies are not in favor of it being a real factor in the cause of disease. Regardless of whether or not EMF can cause problems there is nothing any of you have said about this watch that would lead me to believe that it has any ability to cancel out the harmful effects of EMF. All you’ve handed me is more bullshit.

    Don’t like that I’m negative about your wonder product? Then prove me wrong with more than just “I’ve been using it for 10 years and my all my illnesses vanished like magic!” Otherwise I’ll continue to point out what bullshit it is.

  9. About 1950-1952, the Soviets developed EM machines that could influence the brain and nervous system directly. This included the Lida machine, which can induce a catatonic state into a mammal such as a man, a cat, etc. U.S. scientists, obtaining one of these devices in the 1980s, reported that it utilized a 40 MHz carrier, and produced unusual waveforms (showing the multiple frequency content). Since the U.S. scientists do not possess scalar EM detectors, they have no measurements or knowledge of possible scalar components in the Lida’s output signal. According to one U.S. scientist, the device was used by North Korean interrogators in brainwashing U.S. prisoners in North Korea during the Korean War, and was highly effective

    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project233.html

    Ok Les,
    For example: Let me do your research! Once again,try doing it yourself.
    Personal anecdotes don’t amount for shit compared to hard data. Put up …

    You are saying what? You show me hard data that proves us wrong.. We tell you we know and you say because Les has not seen it, it cannot be true…hmmm? Talk about scams, you wouldn’t by chance be trying to get a free Teslar watch out of this debate would ya? I only wonder considering, I have experienced it, and if you really wanted to prove us wrong you would have utilized you wonderous I.Q. to find any scientific data to prove the Teslar chip is not what the patent claims. This company has done everything in their power to make the scientific data available to you and anyone else who wants so badly to prove them wrong. Personally, if you find it, I really would appreciate the insight. So far you seem to be the only negative view I see on the net. Oh, by the way could you ask you webmaster:Tomer Shiran to remove you from the priority listing until you can support your statements? He has too much credibility to copyright his name to someone like you.
    Les, did you happen to check out the link above? Unexplained power outages? hmmmmm…..

  10. Now I know you’re clueless when you try to cite Tom Bearden to backup your claims. Tell me, do you happen to own one of Tom’s “Motionless Electromagnetic Generator” (MEG) free energy devices to go along with your Teslar watch?

    What? You thought tossing me a link to a website with a copy of an article written by Lt. Col. T.E. Bearden (retd.) would have me suddenly changing my mind? You probably assumed I had never heard of Tom Bearden or his nutty claims before and that his big title would convince me of the error of my ways. Bearden is well-known to skeptics as are his crackpot theories such as the small segment you cited above. I believe Bearden likes to claim that the Russians are responsible for both of the space shuttle accidents due to their use of their supposed “scalar EM weapons” to knock them out of the sky. Seems he’s big into conspiracy theories as well as junk science.

    You are saying what? You show me hard data that proves us wrong..

    You’re the one making the ridiculous claims so the burden of proof is on you. Until you can provide reasonable evidence backing up your claims I will continue to call them bullshit. Your first go at it above produced a known nutcase which just reinforced my claim that the Teslar watch is bullshit.

    We tell you we know and you say because Les has not seen it, it cannot be true

  11. Thanks for stimulating discussion about the Teslar watch.  I was skeptical at first and had my Medical Doctor investigate the Teslar watch for me.  His testing showed there were benefits.  I’ve had one for several years now and feel a difference.  Since they have a money back trial period, I would invite people to put it to the test in their lives.  I suggest using a credit card to pay for it.  That way, if there is any difficulty with the Teslar company refunding your money within 60 days of purchase, your credit card company will also go to battle for you.  Thanks again.  With or without a Teslar watch, I wish you a long, healthy, happy life.

  12. I was skeptical at first and had my Medical Doctor investigate the Teslar watch for me. His testing showed there were benefits.

    Please elucidate on what tests your doctor performed and how he verified that there was benefit to be gained. Has you doctor published his findings in any medical journals? If so, then which ones? If not, then why not? He would have proven benefits where other researchers have found absolutely none and could be up for major recognition if his findings are borne out.

    Personally, I seriously doubt your Doctor ran any tests at all. I suspect you’re just trying to lend a tone of credibility to your response.

  13. The Philip Stein Teslar watch contains a chip that works with the battery and coil to create a frequency that neutralizes the electromagnetic fields emanating from devices like cell phones, computers and radios, according to the company.

    Hmmm…. physics, anyone?  It’s this crazy science that has shown promise.

    The Teslar watch could “work” by destructive interference.  This requires the generation of an EMF of the SAME freq as the harmful EMF, but with 180 deg phase shift where the two waves meet.  It would cancel the waves out at the point of intersection, but does not destroy the particle energy.  It also provides you with a constant source of EMF at the same “harmful” freq, and a minor side effect of rendering your electronics unuseable when your watch is nearby. 

    I have a better idea, and you won’t have to pay for it.  I’ll gladly remove all cellphones, tvs, radios, DVD players, VCRs, CD decks, PDAs, computers, etc from your home, providing you with a greatly reduced EMF environment, not to mention a significant increase in peace and quiet.

    Barring that, the only way to keep those pesky aliens from trasmitting through your fillings is to wear a full suit of metal armor (properly grounded, of course).  Just think of yourself as a piece of human coax cable. smile

  14. I was skeptical at first and had my Medical Doctor investigate the Teslar watch for me. His testing showed there were benefits.

    Kickback tests, maybe? wink

  15. “His testing showed there were benefits”

    Yes indeed; the ‘benefit’ was tangible—I ALWAYS knew what time it was as long as I was wearing my Teslar watch.

  16. I got my philip stein teslar dual analog watch off of skymall for $179 I am not going to say it cured me(I’m not even going to say I could feel anything).  I didn’t notice a difference, however, I love the watch it looks really cool, its a great conversation piece, and I will tell you that is practically indestructable, a seiko would have busted by now trust me smile.  lets face it for $179, that watch is a masterpiece, teslar chip or none.

  17. You know what Josh? That’s the first endorsement I’ve heard from someone about this watch that makes any sense at all. Fair enough too. Whether the Teslar chip does a damned thing it’s still a watch and if you like how it looks and it tells time accurately then it could easily be worth the money for you.

    I can accept that explanation without question or complaint, but the moment someone claims it’s curing them of all their ills I’m going to call them on it. grin

  18. Whether or not the Teslar watch actually does what it claims is almost a moot point.  It also happens to be a good looking dual time zone watch.  As far as style goes it happens to be a very fine timepiece with nothing else comparable on the market in this price range.  So, if it’s a watch you need, great.  And if the watch actually helps someone (regardless of what they paid -new stuff always makes you feel good) then all the better.
    I mean if an anal ass probe protection system looks good then why not invest?

  19. I disagree. When the watch price starts at $600 then it had best do everything that it claims. Being merely a stylish and useful timepiece at that point is no longer enough to justify that kind of cost. The advertisements push the medical benefits of the watch as justification and there is no basis to those claims. If you bought one and you’re happy with it, that’s one thing, but saying that it’s stylish and functional regardless of whether it does what it claims to do is not a good justification for buying one.

  20. Yeah,
    I cannot see paying 600 bucks for a phillip stein watch.  For $179 it is a bargain,  I had a little mishap with the watch when I was trying to turn off the water main(which had not been used for years and was rusted shut),  My wrench snapped and my wrist flew into the concrete, my watch took the full hit right on the crystal, it hit so hard that the pin holding the band snapped, and the watch bruised my wrist. my wrist was swollen for days( who knows what would have happened to my wrist had the watch not been there.  anyway the crystal has a tiny little scratch and I fixed the pin in the band, I have busted a seiko, over a much smaller mishap. The watch shouldn’t work after an impact like that
    bu it does.  I don’t know if it protects you from cell phone radiation or not, but I really hope you can still get my model for $179, for $600 you might as well get a swiss watch. smile

  21. Les, I am a Teslar wearer and I can assure you, it is not a scam! For 10 years I suffered everyday from fibromyalgia. They cant explain what causes this but 10 million people suffer everyday with no hope of relief. After being poked and proded, doped and nope hope. Out of desperation I tried a Teslar watch. You cannot even fathom the difference in my life! Just as you know nothing of agonizing illness, you know nothing of researching your comments and critizing bullsit! There is plenty of documentation on EMF and proof of its ability to harm humans and animals. Try spending a little more time educating yourself on your topics before you spread your pesimistic views to people who are in dire need of optimistic ones. Do some good for the world for once in your miserable life! Remember just because Les doesnt know about it doesn

  22. The watch is supposed to protect from the harfull effect of EMF, right ? But as far as I know from some statistics, only about 10% are sensitive to EMF. The watch may be effective to these 10%; but the fact it has no magical effect on the 90% of other people is normal, it does not mean it is inefficient. Personally, I am electrosensitive, I used it, and it was quite efficient, although not perfect. I believe in it, but I just think the people that are trying to sell it are overstating its effects instead of doing serious scientifical experiments to test it.

  23. Thanks – I am finding this thread interesting – I have a major problem with Atrial Fibrillation – an irregularity of the heartbeat. it means I go in to hospital a lot to have it put back in to sinus rhythm and it is wrecking my life.

    i read abut this watch today in the Daily Telegraoh at the Drs surgery and I am hoping it could help to wear one. I know you sceptics say its not good but can anyone tell me if its safe for my condition?  OK I could be sceptical too but Id do anyting to gt my heart to go regular – and stop the stress in my life. im not expecting it would act like a pacemaker but I need to now if it would be SAFE with my conditition.

    Any positive advice would be welcome!

  24. kkipper, it’s impossible to say for certain if it’s safe for you to use or not as the makers don’t exactly go into detail on how it works—for obvious reasons—but I would suspect it would be harmless to you beyond the damage it’ll do to your wallet.

    You’d probably be better served getting a second opinion from a different doctor if the one you’re seeing now doesn’t appear to be able to treat your condition properly.

  25. This watch is an obvious scam, for the reasons that Ragman said.  To go into a bit more detail: the wavelength of (say) cell phone radiation is on the order of a foot, so a watch on your wrist that produced interference waves at cell-phone frequency could conceivably reduce radiation at your wrist, and maybe your hand, but if you hold it a foot, or two feet, away from your head, you will be exposing your brain to more radiation.  Might as well just buy a copper bracelet-  it will work just as well, and it’s a lot cheaper.

    There is no way a watch can shield you from EMF.  If you want to protect your head from EMF, you’re better off with a lead helmet.  A thick one.

  26. Thanks Les and thanks zilch!  This EMF is interesting – when I got my mac I emailed Apple support to ask if the wireless Bluetooth keyboard and mouse were safe re Atrial Fibrillation. They hadnt had the question put to them before but said it would be OK.

    I do wonder though if the time I spend on a computer is harmful -I believe it does emit harmful electrical energies. Mobile phone could have the same result. Maybe I should pack in my technology – – and go back to painting real pictures on canvas.

    Disappointing though it would be wonderful to think that wearing a watch could change my life – it makes me think that its hard to trust in products – so may people want to just make money. Health claims are a ploy to make us look at the product maybe – – – – maybe – – – –

  27. Kipper, the major EMF offenders were Cathode-Ray Tube monitors.  The later models were shielded but early ones spat out lots of EMF, mostly toward the rear (so the major danger, if any, was the monitor on the desk behind yours).  LCD monitors are much better.  If you have concerns you should probably avoid wireless keyboard and mouse – use ones with cords on them.

    As for Bluetooth and 802.11b, it always amuses me when a company says “We don’t know anything about that question but it is safe.”  It might be safe – probably is safe – but that level of certainty is just funny.

    Whether you use technology or not, painting on canvas sounds like a fine idea.  Betty Edwards, author of Drawing on the right side of the brain believed that drawing is neurologically similar to meditation, or at least a very different mental state from all this social interaction and wordsmithing.  Enjoy!

  28. decrepitoldfool – your reply made me smile! I definitely need to paint.

    I note though that the “Teslar” watch can be bought for $49.95 – it is the “Philip Stein” bit that adds on the extra hundreds and thousands of dollars!

  29. A side note- the Ministry of Health here in Austria just released recommendations for cell-phone use (unfortunately only in German).  The Minister, Maria Rauch-Kallat, points out that the health hazards are unknown and hotly debated, but in the interests of safety, says we should try to keep conversations short, use headsets, not phone when the reception is bad, etc.

    I don’t know if cell phone use is unhealthy, but I use mine maybe twice a month.  Unfortunately, it’s impossible to pry my fifteen-year-old daughter away from hers.

  30. I did a websearch on the Teslar watches, saw them in a magazine and was interested.. strictly design/cost had nothing to do with the vodoo properties *twilight zone music now plays in background* …. stumbled across this place and have been reading posts here for over the past hour.  Have a few comments/posts to make later to some of the more recent rants and raves.. an interesting place.. ciao !

  31. I just recently purchased the diamond version of the large quartz, and i must say that it has definatly had a positive effect. You might be right in saying their claims are a bunch of bs, and that i am merly feelikng better due to my mind overpowering my body. But i must add that even if they dont auctually make you feel better directly, they have an indirect positve effect, such as, it definatly doesnt hurt to have an iced out watch when trying to impress some ladies. and judging by your picture you could use all the help you could get.

    ps. they go all the way up to about 10k for a solid gold with diamonds which is a bargan compared to similar watches such as Patek Phillip and Jacob & co

  32. Mr. Rizzle, I’ve been married for over five years now. My concerns with impressing the ladies these days are minimal and, in all honesty, if they’re impressed with a scam-watch such as this one then they’re not too bright in the first place and probably not my type.

  33. Someone googles Tesla watches, and this thread spings back into life.

    Right, for all you ‘Alternative medicine’ advocates out there, this is what you have to do to get taken seriously.

    Organise a test with 4 groups.  Each group must be a statistically significant size (surprisingly this can be as low as 100 people, but the more the better).  The groups should be as identical as possible in age, sex, ethnicity etc as possible.

    1st Group has the tested substance, and is told they have it.

    2nd Group has placebo, and is told it is a placebo.

    3rd Group has the tested substance, and is told they have the placebo.

    4th Group has placebo, and is told it is a substance.

    Now here is the cunning bit- the people handing out the stuff, and collating the results do not know who is being lied to-  ie the doctor for a group is merely told that ‘this is xxx’ or ‘this is a placebo’, and then told which script to use.

    This is the double blind- and eliminates any bias (including involuntary) by those in contact with the test subjects.

    For best results repeat with new test groups.  More repeats you do the better- like tossing coins or rolling dice the more you do it the more average the results become.

    If the substance does do ‘exactly what it says on the tin’ then we should see the following

    G1 improves most
    G3 Improves second highest, or about the level of G1 (+/-5% is considered normal statistical margin)
    G4 shows some improvement (due to placebo effect)
    G2 shows no effect.

    Yes it is odd there is a difference between G1 and G3, but research confirms the placebo effect works, EVEN WHEN ON THE CORRECT MEDICATION (weird eh).

    Of all the therapies, Homeopathy is the most tested, and it has never worked in a truly neutral test.

    Following the condemnation of a group of 12 leading UK doctors into ‘complementary therapy’, I read a number of letters defending it in one of the Broadsheets (possibly ‘The Times’).  The thrust of the arguments seemed to be the CT therapists make you feel better because they spend more time with you. NHS docs never have enough time.  Yep, and that’s why it works- patients respond better with TLC than just hard facts alone.  Research shows this.

    Ponder this, o yea of too much faith.  If it worked the Glaxo’s et al would use it (coz it’s a damn site cheaper).  Then it would no longer be ‘alternative’.

    (Now you understand why my crystal powered sister in law and I don’t agree all the time- I’m just too analytical)

  34. LH: my crystal powered sister in law

    What a great line. I’ve got one of those. LOL

  35. She’s a good laugh, great to get drunk with but she does tend to believe anything.  She has recently stopped being vege, as she found out plants feel pain too. (at least I think that’s my stepson said- it was my wedding so I had had about a bottle of Champaign)

  36. Of all the therapies, Homeopathy is the most tested, and it has never worked in a truly neutral test.

    I wouldn’t be so sure about that, Hussar.  According to the theory, the more dilute a homeopathic medicine is, the more powerful its effect.  Since I take no homeopathic medicine, my dilution is for all practical purposes infinite.  And I’m in great health.  I recommend this dosage to everyone.

    She has recently stopped being vege, as she found out plants feel pain too.

    Hmmm… how long can you live on a diet of minerals and water?

  37. Someone googles Tesla watches, and this thread spings back into life.

    This is one of the threads that has gotten near-constant attention since the day I wrote it. It’s consistently one of the most accessed entries on the whole blog second only to my entry about The Camel Toe Song.

    ExpressionEngine only just put in the ability to track the number of times an entry is viewed a few months back and this entry has over 12,220 views racked up. I’m actually surprised it doesn’t receive more comments considering all the people stopping by.

  38. Since I take no homeopathic medicine, my dilution is for all practical purposes infinite

    Ah allow me to sell you a bottle of homeopathic wine.  So dilute, one small sip and you fall over.  Bargain at £29.99.

    She has recently stopped being vege, as she found out plants feel pain too.
    Hmmm… how long can you live on a diet of minerals and water?

    No she’s actually gone back to eating meat, apparently.

    Does anyone know who the ‘mystic’ was a couple of years ago, who claimed she could live just on sunshine?  I think she was English and in her 40’s.  I was all in favour of testing this for about 8 weeks- ‘There’s your sealed room with no roof- see ya soon’… She just got a bit of air time in TV shows and they never said ‘go on then’. Idiots

  39. Zilch: According to the theory, the more dilute a homeopathic medicine is, the more powerful its effect.  Since I take no homeopathic medicine, my dilution is for all practical purposes infinite.  And I’m in great health.  I recommend this dosage to everyone.

    >> “She has recently stopped being vege, as she found out plants feel pain too.”

    Hmmm… how long can you live on a diet of minerals and water?

    Wait!  According to homeopathic medicine, water has a ‘memory’ so it must be sentient.  So water can feel pain, too!

    That just leaves minerals…

  40. Remember the guys pulling a suicide stunt in front of rolling cameras a couple years ago? They drank some ultra-potent homeopathic stuff that was diluted by a few more orders of magnitude. Way past the point where even a single molecule of the original stuff remained.

  41. As I understand it most homeopathic remedies sold today on the high street are so dilute they are unlikely to contain any of the original substance (unless a molecule or two has managed to be in the fraction of a % that is used each time.

    Does any one know the dilution amount, I have a feeling it is 1ml per litre (1:1000).  The number given shows the number of dilutions- go a C30 (an average common high street remedy) solution has been diluted, shaken, and 1ml of that put into a litre 30 times.  Thats 1 part in 10^90 (ie almost a google)

    What most people don’t know was that homeopathy was invented by a German doctor in the late 19th Cent.  His original instructions said that the solution must be shaken against a bible….

  42. His original instructions said that the solution must be shaken against a bible….

    Very important advice. It’s a little known fact that shaking the beakers against the wrong type of religious book may result in severely adverse side effects, like growing another penis.

  43. It’s a little known fact that shaking the beakers against the wrong type of religious book may result in severely adverse side effects, like growing another penis.

    there’s a joke in here somewhere….

  44. just having one causes me complaints…

    …mostly along the lines of “For gods sake, stop poking me in the back with that thing, I’m trying to sleep”

  45. Speaking of permanently erect penii:  check out this screenshot from the Rapture game Left Behind.  Adam is wearing a loincloth which does nothing to conceal his impressive hardon.  This is even more readily visible in the trailer.  I guess it must have been pretty exiting stuff, getting created and all…

  46. Ah allow me to sell you a bottle of homeopathic wine.  So dilute, one small sip and you fall over.  Bargain at £29.99.

    Ah, thanks, Hussar- the vibrations have already reached me, and I’m reeling.  Your payment will be sent by the same means, and with the same dilution…

    So water can feel pain, too!

    That just leaves minerals…

    Given that minerals in crystalline form are more highly ordered than liquid water, DoF, they are probably also more sentient than water.  That just leaves air…

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