9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals lets Pledge ruling stand.

In case you haven’t already heard, last Friday the full panel of judges in the 9th Circuit Court refused to reconsider the controversial Pledge ruling. President Bush and other politicians once again denounced the decision.

The court has since stayed it’s own decision yet again pending a hearing by the Supreme Court. Without that stay school children in 9 States would have ceased reciting the Pledge as a daily ritual on March 10th. John AsshatAshcroft immediately went about showing how ignorant of the issue he truly is:

“The Justice Department will spare no effort to preserve the rights of all our citizens to pledge allegiance to the American flag,” Ashcroft said.

“We will defend the ability of Americans to declare their patriotism through the time-honored tradition of voluntarily reciting the pledge.”

First off, there’s nothing stopping all citizens from reciting the Pledge if they want to. You can recite whatever version of the Pledge you want pretty much wherever you want. There’s also nothing stopping the schools from having kids recite the Pledge of Allegiance in it’s original form, which does not include the words “under God”. The schools just aren’t allowed to use the current version because the words “under God” turn it from being a patriotic expression into a religious prayer of sorts.

Secondly,  many schools require reciting the Pledge which makes the activity no longer a “voluntary” act.  By why quibble about facts when knee-jerk rhetoric is so much easier to work with? I shouldn’t be surprised, Ashcroft has shown he has very little understanding of most of the issues he likes to rant about.

E.J. Montini of The Arizona Republic newspaper had a very good op-ed piece about this issue yesterday. In it he talks about a conversation he had with a school teacher who had brought up the Pledge issue with her students after word of the court’s decision to let their ruling stand became public. In this discussion the teacher brought up the fact that her students, and probably a great number of other people in America, don’t really seem to understand just what the hell they’re pledging allegiance to.

“The kids were split on whether the ‘under God’ part belonged in the pledge or not,” the teacher said. “Most found it perfectly OK. Even good. One student asked how we’d feel if it said “under Allah.” It was a good discussion. Until I asked what I thought was a fairly simple question.” She very innocently said, “By the way, who can define ‘republic,’ as in when we say ‘the republic for which it stands?’”

Silence. No more hands in the air. No more talk. So, the teacher began asking specific kids. “One told me confidently, ‘Republic means a democracy,’ ” she said. “When I answered, ‘No, not really,’ he looked shocked.”

Right now you’re probably scrambling for a dictionary. You learned this. Maybe. Me, too. Luckily, the teacher was kind enough not to ask for the answer. She continued, “I talked about how in a republic individuals are vested with rights, as we are, while in a democracy the majority simply rules. I spoke of how the U.S. has elements of both systems. I talked about how individual rights are what keep us from a kind of mob rule. In a democracy the citizens are the government. In a republic, the government works for the citizens. It has authority to govern, but it cannot trample on individual rights.”

For example, an individual’s right not to have religion forced upon him.”

I can relate to this teacher as I have tried to explain that same simple concept to folks who have challenged my support for the Pledge ruling and I’ve asked many of them that same question with regards to what a “Republic” is. Most haven’t a clue. When I explain what it is and how it works, that whole individual rights thing, a lot of them don’t care if that’s how it’s “supposed” to work. They can’t seem to reconcile their need to enforce some form of mandatory expression of patriotism with the fact that in it’s current form it violates the concepts behind the very thing they would supposedly be pledging their allegiance to. I think a better Pledge for these people would go something like this:

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag for a System of Government with precepts I have no intention of actually honoring. And to the Mob Rule that will arise due to my willful ignorance, which will guarantee liberty and justice, only for those of like mind. The rest of you should either fall in line with us or go to some other country where they actually try to respect the rights the government claims you have.

47 thoughts on “9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals lets Pledge ruling stand.

  1. Now if that were the pledge I would not only understand it, but would stop complaining when our ‘supposed rights’ were trampled, or amended, or just plain ignored. Of course I would be moving to Canada but then I half expect that I might just do that before I die anyway.

  2. Shall we all get in line and pander to the dominant paradigm? America is waking up, but hopefully we won’t realize too late that we slept far too long.

  3. Hey Les, Can I borrow your pledge!?!?!  That is so cool that I want to post it on my office door. 

    (Right under my poster of a brownshirt carrying a Nazi Flag, and captioned:  One Fuhrer. One Nation. One Newschannel.  Fox News—the only official newschannel of the Fatherland.)

    I think I might actually memorize it so that I can recite it on demand.

  4. Nowiser, you go right ahead and use it if you wish. I’ve not actually tried to recite in public myself, but I’m sure it’ll get a positive reaction wherever you should choose to use it.

  5. We are a nation founded in and by Christian faith. Their is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ our LORD. Not through Allah, Isis, Mary or other false pagan gods, only by accepting that Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. GOD has blessed our country because we bless Israel. When the time comes for GOD to call his people home. He will be free to deal with all peoples and countries that remain. The fact that christians are here in this world is the only reason GOD restrains his wrath. This is not a joke, I know you will dismiss this but later when it is quite, sit and think and try to hear the voice of GOD. He is there waiting for you to answer him. But he will only wait a short time longer friend. The time is running out.

  6. Blah, blah, blah. I swear these people have a little 3×5 card that they carry around with them with the same bunch of misinformation on it that they whip out anytime they feel like doing a little holier-than-thou ranting.

    No, we are not a nation founded in and by Christian faith. Not only is this patently not true to anyone with even a casual knowledge of American history, but it’s also embodied in national law. The rest of this claptrap is standard only-my-god-is-the-real-god-and-he’s-pissed-and-he’ll-get-you-if-you-don’t-convert-cause-he’s-coming-back-real-soon-now scare tactics.

    OK, you’ve done your preaching for the day. You can turn your little Jeebus pin right side up now.

  7. WHO KILLED JESUS ?

    Ask yourself these three questions “Who killed Jesus ?” , “Who was Jesus ?”
    and “Why did Jesus have to die ? “

    Who was Jesus?

    Jesus was the son of God.(See Matthew 1:20-21)
    God created him in human form to live a sinless life. (See 2 Cor 5:21, 1
    John 3:5, 1 Peter 2:22 )
    Through Jesus God was able to know what it was like to be a man.

    Why did Jesus have to die ?

    Jesus’s life was planned from the begining. (See John 3:16, Matthew 20:28
    Acts 4:28 )
    Since the begining of time the Bible sets out the need of blood atoning
    sacrifice to cover sin.
    When Adam and Eve first sinned agisnt God he clothed them with animal
    skins.Well the skins came from an animal that was slain. Becuase they needed
    to have their shame covered. (See Genesis 3:21; 4:4 )
    Because Jesus was sinless he was a once and for ever perfect sacrifice. (See
    Colossians 1:22)
    Jesus died and was raised up from the dead to live for ever and ever. He
    conquered death.(See Matthew 28:6, Colossians 1:22, John 14:1-3, Romans
    4:25)

    Who killed Jesus ?

    Jesus died for our sins. (See John 3:16, Matthew 20:28, Mark 9:12; 9:31;
    10:33-34, 2 Cor. 5:21 )
    Key word “our”
    We are all sinners. (See Romans 5:12, 1 Cor 15:22, Eccl 7:20, Rom 3:23,
    Prov 20:9 )
    So who killed Jesus ?
    You killed Jesus, I killed Jesus, we all killed Jesus. Why ?
    Because we are sinners and he died as a atoning sacrifice. ( See 1 Peter
    2:21; 3:18; 4:1 )
    His blood was the price for our sins, once and for all.
    If we accept that fact and ask him to forgive us. Then we are made sinless.
    (See John 3:16)

  8. And your point is… what? I’ve already read the Bible several times, John. Cutting and pasting passages I’m already familiar with seems a silly activity for you to engage in. Was this supposed to convince me of something? Or do you just enjoy going around and pasting Bible verses into blog comments for no apparent reason?

  9. Democracy/Republic
    I actually believe that due to a number of factors, voter apathy being a major one,here in the UK as well as in the USA,we are actually living in stealthy Plutocracies.
    sincerely n

  10. Who killed Jesus?  I did.  And I’ll kill him again if he shows his punk face here.  There.  Feel better?

    Pass me the Christian baby blood, would you?

    (This is what dear Mel is angling for, only he pretends he’s the victim.)

  11. I must vote for George W. Bush. Every terrorist, liberal and homosexual wants Bush to lose the election. They want us to cut and run from Iraq, then from Afghanistan, and then from the Middle East. Their goal remains the same: the destruction of Israel and America. I am thankful that I can vote for Bush.

    I pray that a terrorist attack happens before Nov. Elections and it takes out San Francisco or some other queer homo city. This will punish America and bring it into line. 9/11 should many of us the power of the LORD and many were led to Christ. It would be wonderful for another big, really big attack to take place and many more will be led to Christ. The country would fall behind Bush, law and order would be enforced in our country. Liberal judges could be gotten rid of and strong Christian Judges could be placed on the courts. Our nation could go forth and destroy the islamic filth that infects our world.

  12. I pray that a terrorist attack happens…

    Eeeewwww!  You want a whole bunch of people to die in a senseless attack so the survivors will be frightened into following your god?

    Maybe that whole “god” thing is the problem to begin with.

  13. I thought he was just a comment troll at first, but then I checked out his website. Nope, he’s a genuine radical fundamentalist asshole.

    The great irony about people like “John Pusinsky Martyr Maker” is they can’t see how they’re just as evil as the people they’re railing against. From where I’m standing there’s no difference between that asshole and Osama bin Laden. Different religions, same dumbfuck attitude. He’s no different than the religious wingnuts who flew the planes into the Trade Center towers.

    Well, there’s at least one difference: John probably doesn’t have the balls to sacrifice himself in such a manner for the glory of his imaginary friend. No, he’d rather just use the power of government to slaughter anyone who disagrees with his religious delusions.

  14. That’s it.  I’m starting a Terrorist Liberal Homosexual Club.  I guess I’ll have to start sleeping with women, though (maryh?), and I’ll have to blow something up.  Where was that guy’s website again?  Who’s with me?

    (Yeah, it’s interesting how the lead “martyr makers” only want to make OTHER people martyrs.  They’re too wussy to stand up for what they claim to believe in.)

    (captcha = “big”)

  15. You know what all of this is pathetic especially Mr. Evil and Geekmom.  How can anyone call themselves a mom and believe in nothing but their own selfishness. Go ahead make fun of people but you are the reasons that drugs are chosen more then babies, or pets are before human life. You are also the reason that everything is acceptable I ask you if everything is acceptable to you then why not GOD!! Oh I get it everything but God or Christians because you are whimps!!! I pitty you and hope you wake up to raise your children right and not just let them make all their own choices thats whats wrong in this world everyone gets to choose. Choose sex, violence, drugs, hatred but if you choose God you are considered a NUT!! Well that right there ought to tell you something. Mr. Evil…lol…I laugh at you WRITE WHAT YOU WILL SAY WHAT YOU WANT BUT NOTHING CAN CHANGE THE LIKES OF YOU AND YOUR WAYS I BET THE ONLY MUSIC YOU CAN ENDURE IS SCREAMING OMG DEATH METAL….LOL…WHERE IS YOUR CULTURAL AND CIVILIZATION YOU HATE THE WAYS OF AMERICAN AND WANT TO THROW AMERICAN HISTORY OUT THERE WELL IS SUGGEST YOU START BACK AT PRE-K BECAUSE THE FOUNDING FATHERS BASED THE CONSTITUTION OF THE U.S. ON THE BIBLE DEAR NOT A TREE OR A STAR BUT THE HOLY BIBLE ENOUGH SAID YOU CAN CONSIDER YOURSELF SCHOOLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. Michelle, if other viewpoints bother you so much, perhaps you should confine your social interractions to your church. You’re obviously ill-prepared to deal with the world at large.

    Some extra schooling might be neccessary as well. The founding fathers didn’t base the constitution on the Bible, they weren’t even all Christians.

    Try reading a book or two.

  17. You guys don’t seem to be aware that Michelle and Mr. Pus in the Sky are having you on. Heh heh, they’re pretty clever. They don’t really believe that crazy stuff. Right Michelle and Mr. Pus?….right?…urp…Oh, crap!

    Ready the horses guys, we ride at dawn!

  18. Michelle: Sex, violence, drugs, and hatred can be proven to exist and belief in their existance is not in question; nobody has ever been able to prove that any god exists.  Most reasonable people are aware that violence and hatred exist and believe that they are not moral or ethical.  Most reasonable people do not believe in the existance of supernatural beings; including such things as ghosts, gods, devils, angels, ghouls, goblins, elves, spirits, trolls, or demons.  Most reasonable people also do not believe in magic. 

    I do not classify people who believe in a god as being nuts.  I would classify people who try to make me believe in a god as being nuts.  I do not believe in supernatural beings and I don’t care if other people believe in supernatural beings.  I do care when other people try to say that anything I do, say, or believe is wrong because it is not in accordance with their belief in the supernatural.

  19. Michelle- people who find it necessary to add twenty-eight exclamation points to their comments usually have a “special” number in their name.  Let’s check yours out.

    A is one, B is two, and so forth.  Let’s look for the “special number, six six six:

    The sixth letter of “Michelle” is L, with a value of twelve, that is two times six.  The sixth letter from the back is C, with a value of three, that is one half of six.  Add the values of the first half of “Michelle”, 13+9+3+8, and you get 33.  Three plus three is, you guessed it, six.  Using only sixes, I’ve found the Number of the Beast in your name.  So we know who’s side you’re on.

  20. Michelle wrote: “I pitty you and hope you wake up to raise your children right and not just let them make all their own choices thats whats wrong in this world everyone gets to choose.”

    Translation: “God forbid that anyone should teach their children to use the brain He gave them”.

  21. I for one thought taking five minutes out my thirty minute class for reciting some stupid pledge was a waste of time…

    Oh, and I find it very ironic that Christians get offended by the word Allah… Allah means God in arabic….

  22. sml; Oh, and I find it very ironic that Christians get offended by the word Allah… Allah means God in arabic….

    Not all christians are as tight assed as you.  I doubt that any of the christians who go to the church that I go to would give two shits that somebody else uses the word “allah”. 

    I’d bet that there are many words that offend right wing christians.

  23. Thank you for everyone who responded with their rudeness and suggesting I am less intelligent then they are.  Just tell me about it when the U.S. is attacked again or when people loose their freedom of speach because everyone was so busy being liberal that our entire government structure was changed and rights were lost one by one. Don’t pity me or call me nuts I stand firm in my opinions and beliefs and if you do in yours then so be it. The imature 666 oh well such is life for you or lack there of. As for reading a book or two real cute the constitution and this country was based on the bible regardless of who believed what that was the majority at the time.  It is just so funny why do you people get so upset if someone mentions God what are you afraid of! You believe in nothing so your dead relatives are in the ground with the warms and bugs cool. I would like to see you people live in a third world country or a communist one.

  24. Michelle; Is your brother named Don?  Do you have problems with tattoos? 

    Do you realize that the current president of the US is the one who is trampling over the US constitution, and that he is a right wing christian?  Why do you directly link the US being attacked with us losing our rights, one by one?  What is an “imature [sic] 666”? I don’t pity you, who said they pity you?  As I said, I do not classify people who believe in a god as being nuts.  Who gets upset when someone mentions god?  I mention god from time to time, generally as ‘god damn’, or ‘jesus fucking christ’. Some of my dead relatives are in the ground, maybe with the worms; I sorta doubt that there are bugs though.  My mom and dad keep some of our dead relatives in cardboard boxes in their basement.  I am very puzzled why you said: “I would like to see you people live in a third world country or a communist one.”

  25. You’re most welcome, Michelle, we’re happy to oblige. As long as you continue to hold the moronic opinion that the Constitution is based on the Bible then you’ll continue to be… well… a moron.

    As for God, I don’t get upset every time someone mentions them unless, like you, they go on to make an idiotic statement such as how they believe the Constitution is based on the Bible. It’s just more proof that too much religion makes people, like you, dumber than a bag of rocks.

  26. Anyone notice that Michelle’s email shares “Pusinsnky”, like John the Martyr Maker, above?

    Fry one christmas tree light…

  27. Michelle, like my good friend Don – who is also tragically undereducated in some basic civil and legal principles – I’d like to suggest that you start taking some classes outside of Bible school. There are probably many various educational tacts that most of us could take to disavow you of these ridiculous notions and associations that you’ve got lurking in the implications of your post, but like Don I’m afraid I (and probably no one else here) really has the time to undo whatever travesty of bad learning you gained before you graduated. Was it an equivalency degree after dropping out, perhaps?

    I know it’s possible that learning basic things about political science and the law might challenge the religious teachings your parents beat into you, but if you can survive with your faith intact then congratulations! You’ll pose us a much more challenging debate! It takes a special sort of person to come into here with an actual education and a baseless faith in the supernatural and go head to head with everyone.

    Right now though honey, you’re expressing yourself with vague rants and ALL CAPS and that just makes a pretty good case that you’re just a fucking loon. That’s ok, if it makes you feel better about saying things that people automatically dismiss because they’re vague and don’t make much sense. But grownups who really desire to communicate in a written form take pains to make themselves understood.

    In the interest of that clear communication, I’m going to reduce it down further:

    Go back to school.

    Thanks sweety; remember that, even if you’re stupid, if you’re educated at least you’ll make more sense to read.

  28. You go for it Sister-in-Jesus Mitchele. I’m on Your’e side !!!!!!!! Tell theez sinking dammed god-hating librools what they nead to here.Don’t be conserned that they trah to make a fool of yoo and disrsepect yu.  Theyll realise you were speeking truth when they stood before Jesus shacking in there buuts – but it will be two late when he tip’s them into the everlasing fires of hell !!!! I say huura four our God.Pleese tell Brother John I liked his aticel about isalmic homersexual terrorrits. I always new they wer quears.

  29. lol, that was funny. don is not as bad as michelle, at least don is an atheist. i always thought of atheists as being intelligent? this is probably mean, but i always thought of religious people as being ignorant. when someone says they are an atheist, i had more respect for them. now i am realizing you can be a moron either way. no offense to don, i find your posts entertaining.

  30. I really enjoy the fact that because I don’t share your views I am uneducated or a dropout. Please if you only knew. Your opinion is your opinion and mine is mine. I am stupid and a loon well that is just lovely. You are obviously bored to even start this website now of course the only reason I may be simple is to post in response to what I have read here.  Oh and by the way I don’t know who Don is so take your immature comments and place them under your cap. Good day to you and happy haunting. How many of you actually voted? Oh the world is the presidents thought that is funny he only came in and had to clean up what Clinton did not have the balls to accomplish. The only thing Clinton did was don’t ask don’t tell for the military what does sexuality have to do with military. Someones sexuality is no ones business regardless of who believes what. Well I gotta get back to work you obviously are more narrow minded then I am problem is your in the wrong direction. Happy Days to you while you can enjoy them. 666 what an imature thing to state.

  31. I really enjoy the fact that because I don’t share your views I am uneducated or a dropout.

    Michelle, your not “sharing our views” has nothing to do with your being pegged as “uneducated,” rather it’s your insistence that the Constitution is based on the Bible, when that “fact” has been debunked multiple times using the founders’ own writings, which clearly state the Constitution was meant as a wholly secular document.

    I’d recommend starting with The Godless Constitution: A Moral Defense of the Secular State. From its earliest history, religious people claimed the Constitution’s omission of any mention of God would bring His wrath down upon our nation, and for over 200 years, religious Americans have attempted to “fix” this “problem” by adding religious language to the document. Happily, they’ve been thwarted in each instance.

  32. Personally it was the ranty ALL CAPS bit that tipped me off. Either she didn’t go to English classes, she slept through them dreaming of all the infidels she could kill in the name of God, or whatever her excuse is.

    That, coupled with the lack of basic paragraph structure and point on message communication, just screams to me “convenience store employee” or worse. I’m sorry it hurts your feelings Michelle, it hurt Don’s feelings as well when we told him that whatever his opinions were he needed a better education to better present them too.

    It’s the truth though. We’ve got religious here that make valuable and worthy contributions to the discussions, but you’re not one of them because your basic communication skills are substandard. I mean, you’re all over the place and it doesn’t make much sense.

    Perhaps, as promised, you’re out of the picture because we’re all so mean and headed for your fictional places of punishment and repentance. But I think that people who put so much effort into not saying anything intelligibly mostly truly wish they wrote eloquently, and just don’t understand why everyone else can’t read their tea leaves of miscommunication that they believe are so well set out.

    So, again, reconsider your strategy if you’ve truly got the education that you obviously consider yourself to have. Otherwise I predict more mocking in your future, as you fulfill every expectation of every educated person here of the religious fundamentalists as uneducated, intransigent, and ethically shallow as you cling to religion as a means of avoiding discussions that would challenge your faith.

    I’ll leave you with a quote from Epictetus, “Only the educated are free.” He wrote it in the first century, I believe, but I really do think it applies. Your lack of education is a chain that binds you, even if it’s a perceived lack of education, because the more perfect your education and communication the less anyone is able to minimize you. As long as you appear to be unable to communicate, the least we shall consider of you is our right to not listen.

  33. Michelle: You are obviously bored to even start this website

    And you came to this playground because …  LOL

    The only thing Clinton did was don’t ask don’t tell for the military what does sexuality have to do with military. Someones sexuality is no ones business regardless of who believes what.

    This sounds like you agree with Clinton.
    This means you aren’t a total fuckwit. smile

  34. Michelle, are you a member of the “patriot movement”?

    As for the Ninth Circuit …. they make a lot of good rulings.  I’m personally a fan of Judge Alex Kozinski in particular.

    They did make one ruling with which I vehemently disagreed, in regard to tax protester Irwin Schiff of Nevada (which brings us back to the so-called “patriot movement”).  They upheld a ruling which banned his book “The Federal Mafia”, on the basis that it is commercial speech and thus not constitutionally protected.  The book forwards his theory that federal income taxes apply only to those living in DC and other federal territories (don’t try that at home, kids, because Schiff is in federal prison – for the third time – after being convicted of multiple counts of tax evasion and conspiracy to defraud the United States).

    Certainly, the book’s premise is incorrect, and a lot of people get into serious trouble because they read that book and stop paying income taxes.  In fact, a lot of people are in prison for tax evasion because they followed Irwin Schiff’s de-tax theory.  However, I still don’t believe any book should ever be banned.

    Since there are a lot of computer enthusiasts here, you may have heard of the incredibly silly pro se lawsuit by Paul Andrew Mitchell, author of “The Federal Zone”, against AOL and hundreds of other defendants.  Mitchell (real name Mitch Modeleski) is also a prominent member of the “patriot movement”, and the book which was the subject of that lawsuit promoted the same ideas as Schiff’s.  Mitchell has not been prosecuted for tax evasion, though, because as far as anyone can tell, he doesn’t even make enough money to meet minimum federal tax filing requirements.

  35. Thank you very much for the insult on intelligence and English oh yes and paragraph structure. I never noticed anyone typing in any formal format. I guess when you have nothing really important to say you pick at anything. How wonderful it must be to be narrow minded and blame everything on everyone else.  Remember when your falling off that mountain or having a tragic accident don’t yell out God help me! Call on your own kind.  Yes I am bored to even entertain a bunch of idiotic comments with a response.  I wish I could be as perfect as you blah blah blah!! Slash my wrist and hang me out to try I offended the oh evil one by standing firm in my beliefs..LOL…

  36. SS, so kind of you to feed the troll. You should aim for something less nutritious, though, otherwise the critters keep coming back for more.

    It’s sad that the Michelles of this world will never know how wrong they are and their mind will remain oblivious to original and different thought, but you can’t save them all, can you?

    I suppose it is a humanitarian gesture to relieve their self-professed boredom by delivering the exact stimulus they beg for, but doesn’t it make you feel—used?

  37. I’m still waiting for a response to the question I posed to Michelle, regarding her possible involvement in the “patriot movement”.

  38. I guess when you have nothing really important to say you pick at anything. How wonderful it must be to be narrow minded and blame everything on everyone else.

    Speak for yourself.

    Remember when your falling off that mountain or having a tragic accident don’t yell out God help me!

    The only reason I would yell out the word God is because I have been programmed to do since birth by idiots such as yourself.

    Yes I am bored to even entertain a bunch of idiotic comments with a response.

    Oh thats true.

    I wish I could be as perfect as you blah blah blah!! Slash my wrist and hang me out to try I offended the oh evil one by standing firm in my beliefs..LOL [sic]…

    Because we all know how loving and caring the god of the Christian bible is.

  39. Tamara: I’m still waiting for a response to the question I posed to Michelle, regarding her possible involvement in the “patriot movement”.

    I wouldn’t hold your breath. Michelle isn’t here to discuss anything. She’s here to simply blather on and on (and yet still end up saying nothing).

    I’ve read up on the patriot movement. It’s scary shit. Also, if you’ve ever attended a gun show then chances are good you’ve encountered some of the types associated with this movement. My dad has actually known some members of similar far-Right groups back home. I don’t know if Michelle would qualify; she appears to just be your standard fundie.

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