Wisconsin student questioned for not standing during daily Pledge recital.

Posted by Les on Monday, September 13, 2004 at 01:28 PM. Read 14546 times. Tags: ,
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One of the defenses put forth for leaving the reference to God in the current Pledge of Allegiance is that no one is required to participate even when schools are required to lead classes in a daily recitation by state law. When it’s pointed out that kids who decide not to participate may be coerced or humiliated by others for a supposed lack of patriotism the response is to brush such concerns aside as not being likely. Yet news reports of just this sort of thing happening continue to pop up. The latest involves an eighth-grader at Silverbrook Middle School in Wisconsin named Rachel Morris who found herself being questioned first by her teacher and then the school principal when she refused to stand for the Pledge at the start of the school day.

When she refused to stand on the first day her teacher repeatedly questioned her as to why after class was over. Rachel explained that she didn’t have to provide a reason. After refusing to stand on the second day she was summoned to the Principals office.

Madison.com - Student Won’t Stand For Pledge - West Bend Eighth-grader Says She Was Questioned By The Principal And Urged To Participate

Principal Cindy Guell said she called Rachel to her office on the second day partly to discuss the pledge but also to make sure everything was going OK for her. This is Rachel’s first year in the district.

“She said it was against her religion to say the pledge. I said, That’s fine.’ I told her that basically, we stand anyway as a way to honor our nation.”

Guell said Rachel was never told she had to stand. However, Guell acknowledged that, at her instruction, a statement was read over the intercom Wednesday and Thursday before the pledge that said, “The reason we stand is to honor our country.”

The statement was intended to clarify the issue for students, not to needle Rachel, Guell said.

Said Rachel: “It was embarrassing because people kept looking at me like I didn’t honor my country.”

The Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation, which intervened at the family’s request, said the school officials’ actions amount to intimidation.

“They were putting psychological and authoritarian pressure on her to conform,” said foundation spokeswoman Annie Laurie Gaylor.

While it’s true that the Principal never specifically said Rachel had to stand, the implication in the statement she did make and the announcement read before the pledge made it clear that she fully expected Rachel to do so regardless of whether Rachel had to or not.

“She said that even if you don’t recite the pledge, you can at least stand to show respect for your country,” Rachel said. “She said I should just stand and try it.”

Guell said Rachel may have misinterpreted concern for her well-being as an attempt to change her behavior. “I personally feel really bad that she feels this way.”

Guell may have had good intentions, but whether she realizes it or not she was applying pressure on Rachel to conform as was the teacher. What the hell is wrong with just letting her sit quietly in her seat without question if she doesn’t wish to participate? Why bother “clarifying” anything to the rest of the students unless you’re trying to draw attention to the person who isn’t conforming? Whatever reasons Rachel may have for not participating are hers to reveal or not reveal as she should choose and if she isn’t required to participate then she shouldn’t be required to explain why she chooses not to. It’s none of your damned business why she doesn’t want to participate.

Comments:

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nowiser United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 02:33 AM

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Absent clarification, this by inference imputes to Andrew a pseudo-deification of dead soldiers.

I’m sorry.  I didn’t realize I was -implying-.  Let me provide the sorely lacking clarification.

Andrew, like so many other Americans on both the right and left hand side of the political spectrum, is participating in and perpetuating a pseudo-deification of soldiers. Clear enough?

says you know(how pray tell is never disclosed) what the soldiers’ interest is.

Because I’m -human-, like them.  And I’m probably in close to the same socio-economic class as most of them.  And my wife is a military brat, and my father-in-law and both brothers-in-law are military men, and my grandfather is ex-military, and my Uncle was a medic in Vietnam.  And so on, and so on.  Two of my good buddies, one from high school, one from college, became Marines.  So yes, I think I -do- know what their interests are.  And I think LJ’s explanation is probably pretty accurate.  You fight so that the guy next to you, the guy that you talk to, and eat with, and share a foxhole with, doesn’t give you that ‘what the fuck’ look as he’s trying to push his entrails back into his stomach.

And that’s probably a pretty good explanation for why soldiers fight.  And it -is- noble, in its way. 

BUT IT’S NOT THE REASON FOR WAR.  WAR DOES NOT EXIST TO ADVANCE THE CAUSE OF SOLIDARITY BETWEEN MEN. 

No, that’s what team bowling and wilderness retreats are for.

Don’t get me wrong.  I get all choked up at the end of ‘Saving Private Ryan.’ But I also got all choked up at the end of “Stand and deliver.” I admire heroism and self sacrifice in all its forms.  But noone ever claims that not standing for the pledge is an insult to teachers, or bus drivers, or the firemen who rushed into a falling building on 9/11.  No, the flag isn’t -theirs-, that flag belongs to soldiers.

Why?

So that the people whose interests -are- advanced by war can wrap themselves in the most potent symbol of sacrifice [with the exception of the cross], thus silencing anyone who would oppose them.  Because to oppose the war profiteers is to be unpatriotic.  To oppose them is to ‘spit on returning soldiers’ to ‘insult the flag’ to ‘show a lack of reverence to those who died for yooooo.’

But with a few notable exceptions, most of those soldiers didn’t die for me.  They died for the parasites who would wrap themselves in dead soldiers to conceal their own base motives.

As long as we deify soldiers, as long as we continue to buy into the story that their deaths are in the noble defense of valued ideals, as long as we see them as the bold and tragic heroes standing in the face of Mordor’s fury. . .

As long as we do that, we shelter and feed the very people who are responsible for those soldiers’ deaths.

Sorry.  Can’t do it.  Won’t.  And if that makes me an ‘asshole’ and ‘irresponsible with the facts,’ then mea culpa.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Les United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 08:22 AM

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I second what nowiser just said.

Andrew United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 10:49 AM

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I woulod just like to say that I enjoyed our converstaions immensely and all the wonderful replys.  I always enjoy some good debate.

However, I still have not recieved a single answer on why one would not stand?  Is it simply b/c you don’t have to?  What protest are you making by not standing?

Thanks Again, Enjoyed it

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 10:58 AM

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Andrew, you can troll for more, but you already have all the answers.

It doesn’t matter why a student wouldn’t stand. It is (or should be) a personal choice that doesn’t need public justification.

Unless you start answering questions yourself, I don’t see why anybody should further engage you—but that’s a choice anybody else can freely make.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 04/27/2007 at 11:14 AM

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andrew,i did give a direct answer of one reason anyway, you choose (as you are free to) not to acknowledge so you can continue your side along your original plan, but all your doing is creating the illusion of debate in your mind, nobody is there in reality if you ignore points, as elwed said, directly engage people’s comments and questions if you want there to be more than yourself in your debate

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Andrew United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 11:59 AM

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Thank you, you’ve made my point.  There isn’t any reason other than being self-absorded, lazy or ignorant. I don’t feel like it, isn’t a reason.

The flag isn’t about politics, it transcends them.

Good Luck to you all on the far far far far left.  I hope you all can find a country you can live in happily one day.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 12:15 PM

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Andrew’s responses don’t warrant a personal reply, but there’s some importance to not letting them stand without comment.

It is Andrew who made points.

He refused to comment on the issues of coercion. The reader can draw his or her conclusions from that.

He was told that not standing up during the pledge is or should be a personal choice, from which he draws the conclusion that this choice must necessarily be due to the student being self-absorbed, lazy, or ignorant. This is an obvious false dichotomy and tells us a lot about Andrew and like-minded politically conservatives.

The Andrews of this country highlight how misguided the pledge is and I suppose we should thank them for at least that much.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Brock United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 12:38 PM

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Why are our debaters so predictable?

Andrew doesn’t even realize how successful the military and society have been at indoctrinating him.

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nowiser United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 01:49 PM

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The flag isn’t about politics, it transcends them

Repeating the error doesn’t lessen it’s falseness, Andrew.

I’d hoped you’d actually -think- about some of the reasons that people have given for sitting when others stand.  I’d hoped you’d think about why some people when they look at the American Flag -no longer see the same flag that you do-.  And I’d hoped that your understanding of these two things might lead you to acknowledge that a student’s refusal to participate in the Pledge just -might- be rooted in motivations that are not base or mysterious.

But that’s just me.  Underneath all the cynicism, I’m actually a pretty hopeful, people loving kind of guy.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Consigliere United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 02:28 PM

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As long as we deify soldiers, as long as we continue to buy into the story that their deaths are in the noble defense of valued ideals, as long as we see them as the bold and tragic heroes standing in the face of Mordor’s fury. . .

As long as we do that, we shelter and feed the very people who are responsible for those soldiers’ deaths.

It is more than possible to value the soldiers, while still taking issue with a war.  I may disagree with your position, but I won’t personally attack you for such a position. 

When you suggest, as you do above, that a soldier who lost his life in a war that you don’t support doesn’t deserve to be honored to the extent that those do who died in a conflict you do support, well, that is reprehensible to me.  Even more reprehensible is floating the idea in the public domain so that the families of the young men and women have to read such drivel.

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
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Consigliere United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 02:33 PM

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Do they die for “us” or because of “us”?

I think both.  Though, I think we may differ on how broadly “us” is defined.
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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

nowiser United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 03:35 PM

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doesn’t deserve to be honored

You don’t read Consi.  At least you don’t read very carefully. 

I don’t have a problem with honoring soldiers in general.  I have a problem with making the FLAG into a symbolic representation of soldiers’ sacrifice, and then using it like a cross to beat the apostate objectors about the head and shoulders.  I have a problem with honoring soldiers -above all others- who make sacrifices, every day, to advance the ideals and principles that we -do- hold sacred.

You’re being deliberately obtuse.  Why, I don’t understand. 

a soldier who lost his life in a war that you don’t support doesn’t deserve to be honored to the extent that those do who died in a conflict you do support

Ah.  And that’s the crux of the issue, isn’t it?  It’s the old ‘America, right or wrong,’ issue.

At some point, one has to take individual responsibility for one’s actions.

Especially when one is killing people.

Suggesting that it is O.K., or honorable, or NOBLE to kill people for -bad reasons-.

Now -that’s- drivel.

But it is, also, an essentially religious sentiment that derives from turning soldiering into something sacred.

And as a religious sentiment, it is immune to logical examination.  It demands obedience and, in your words, I think, ‘reverence’.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Andrew United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 03:55 PM

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Exactly my point, Consigliere, I stand not because I agree with policy but to honor all those lost for any reason.  That is what many fail to recognize.  They believe it to be cohersion, anyone got any other excuses?  I didn’t realize that teaching someone about sense of duty and respect is cohersion.  Surely there are somethings worth standing up and honoring.  Anyone got any ideas?

Certainly there has to be a better reason than not wanting to be coheresed.  And still yet no has an answer:  why would you not stand?  What has happened that you care so little for someone else?  Go on continue to sit and fail to recognize there are things out there greater than ourselves.

nowiser United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 04:27 PM

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Exactly my point, Consigliere, I stand not because I agree with policy but to honor all those lost for any reason

Utter egoism.  It may feed your sense of pride to consider yourself as a ‘good American,’ ‘supporting the troops,’ but we are all complicit in the deaths of the fallen, and every time we bow and scrape to that flag we empower those who send soldiers to kill and die—‘for any reason.’

Some soldiers may serve for the wrong reasons -but we all allow them to do so and, in fact, encourage them to do so, by elevating and honoring their willingness to kill and die -upon demand-.  And the flag has, without question, become the cross symbol of Jesus soldiers. 

Soldiers bear some responsibility for what they do, but every time we buy into the sacred story of soldiership, every time we bow down, every time we honor the symbol of their unwavering obedience to the will of the Empire American government, we take on some of the responsibility ourselves.

fail to recognize there are things out there greater than ourselves

Submit!  Resistance is futile!

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 04:44 PM

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Andrew, nobody here cares why you stand and it’s none of anybody’s business why somebody else may chose not to.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 04:52 PM

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Andrew:

However, I still have not recieved a single answer on why one would not stand?

I would not stand in this context because A. I object to the inclusion of the phrase “under God,” and B. I find forced displays of anything unconscionable, particularly patriotism. I don’t appreciate people testing me for how patriotic I may be. If patriotism is something that needs to be measured, then as far as I’m concerned its value as a social concept is nil.

Is it simply b/c you don’t have to?

No.

What protest are you making by not standing?

See my first point in this reply.

There isn’t any reason other than being self-absorded, lazy or ignorant.

Why thank you. I’m not sure how ignorance comes into play here, though.

I don’t feel like it, isn’t a reason.

It’s all the reason I need. You may not consider it valid, but then you are not the one who has elected not to stand. If that causes you consternation then you are cordially invited to kiss my ass.

Any further replies from Andrew will be ignored from this keyboard as he has revealed his true purpose here as a troll.

Consi:

When you suggest, as you do above, that a soldier who lost his life in a war that you don’t support doesn’t deserve to be honored to the extent that those do who died in a conflict you do support, well, that is reprehensible to me.

You know I actually agree--if that’s what Nowiser was actually suggesting. In any case this is what makes unjust wars so odious.

Even more reprehensible is floating the idea in the public domain so that the families of the young men and women have to read such drivel.

As much as my heart truly goes out to those who have lost loved ones in the armed forces, there is nothing obligating them to read anything that offends their sensibilities. It was Salman Rushdie who noted that “It is very, very easy not to be offended by a book. You just have to shut it.”

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nowiser United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 05:51 PM

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if that’s what Nowiser was actually suggesting

It actually -is- what I’m saying.  Misguided fervor that leads one to kill and die may be a noble -sentiment-, but it isn’t something that should be honored.  Whether the sentiment comes from religious fervor, or patriotic fervor, or a combination of the two, is irrelevant.  If it leads one to do things which are -wrong- then I can’t pretend that it’s a good thing.

Noble -sentiment- can lead to some fairly ignoble actions.  When we ‘charge,’ through our participation, the symbolic ‘battery’ (the flag) that is being used to fuel the noble -sentiment-, we become complicit in the actions that that symbol is used to justify and defend.

I don’t see people who stand for the pledge, and get all teary-eyed at “The Star Spangled Banner,” as -evil-.  I see them as buying into an essentially religious myth, with many of the same risks that go into giving oneself over to that mythology.

Am I going to start going to soldiers’ funerals and telling the families that their sons and daughters died over misguided mythology?

No.  Because my willingness to throw myself on the gears of the machine only extends so far.  I am -not- a noble person, and I’m OK with that.

But I -do- try to be at least -honest-.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 05:54 PM

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Nowiser: It actually -is- what I’m saying.  Misguided fervor that leads one to kill and die may be a noble -sentiment-, but it isn’t something that should be honored.  Whether the sentiment comes from religious fervor, or patriotic fervor, or a combination of the two, is irrelevant.  If it leads one to do things which are -wrong- then I can’t pretend that it’s a good thing.

Except that many of those who volunteered back in 2002/2003 may not have yet been aware that they were fighting for a misguided cause. The Bush Administration succeeded in fooling a lot of people back then.

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Les United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 06:27 PM

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And Andrew has finally confirmed his status as an idiot. Still, I’ll deign to answer at least one of his questions:

Surely there are somethings worth standing up and honoring.  Anyone got any ideas?

That’s an entirely subjective decision and what you may consider worthy of standing up for may not be the same as what I consider worthy of standing up for. You may disagree with my opinion all you want, but that doesn’t give you the right to force your subjective opinion onto me.

LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 04/27/2007 at 08:13 PM

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Andrew: The flag isn’t about politics, it transcends them.

Then you have no idea what the word ‘politics’ means then do you?

Good Luck to you all on the far far far far left.  I hope you all can find a country you can live in happily one day

We choose to live in the one that allows us to choose. If you want to stand or do anything else because ‘you have to’ it seems you’d be quite happy in North Korea.
Me? I like choices and with that comes having to get along with people I wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire.

Brock: Andrew doesn’t even realize how successful the military and society have been at indoctrinating him.

Amen.

Sadie: I would not stand in this context because A. I object to the inclusion of the phrase “under God,” and B. I find forced displays of anything unconscionable, particularly patriotism. I don’t appreciate people testing me for how patriotic I may be. If patriotism is something that needs to be measured, then as far as I’m concerned its value as a social concept is nil.

Right on.

Andrew: I don’t feel like it, isn’t a reason.

Sadie: It’s all the reason I need.

Andrew, try really, really hard to understand: in a ‘free’ country it IS all the reason you need.

Consi: Even more reprehensible is floating the idea in the public domain so that the families of the young men and women have to read such drivel.

I suppose you want the TV news to stop ‘reporting’ on the occupation too, just in case families of lost boys may be watching.
I know; that was silly too.

Surely there are some things worth standing up and honoring.  Anyone got any ideas?

Yeah, I still stand when a lady enters the room or comes to or leaves the table, but that’s cos I was programmed to from a very young age.
AND, I don’t expect others to do the same.
See the difference?

Andrew, if you take nothing else away from here, take this.
You and I live in countries that allow the choice to sit or stand at the sight of the flag.
You may not like it but that is what the flag represents too.
So get real and stop coming off all sanctimonious, judgemental and RIGHT.
It may work in your True Believer™ crowd but not here cos we take one right very seriously – the right to think differently.
Yeah, I know thinking is confusing but some of us know how to do it.

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I’ve discovered that it all boils down to brain wiring: your brain is wired to worship magic or it isn’t, either it’s wired to utilize logic or it isn’t, either it’s analytical of myths or it isn’t.

KPatrickGlover United States Posted on 04/27/2007 at 08:56 PM

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To quote George Carlin:

...and I don’t get all torn up over the American flag. I consider it to be a symbol and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded.

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Consigliere United States Posted on 04/29/2007 at 01:37 AM

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Consi:

When you suggest, as you do above, that a soldier who lost his life in a war that you don’t support doesn’t deserve to be honored to the extent that those do who died in a conflict you do support, well, that is reprehensible to me.

You know I actually agree--if that’s what Nowiser was actually suggesting.

It actually -is- what I’m saying.

So Sadie, reprehensible or not in your book?

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Consigliere United States Posted on 04/29/2007 at 01:48 AM

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But I -do- try to be at least -honest-.

Most times I believe you do.  Isn’t it difficult though to claim that a reading problem exists when the reader has accurately stated your position?

Your position with respect to soldiers when applied to a few of the poster’s participation in past wars/conflicts would be interesting.  I believe that pinning you down on this would be quite revealing for those not currently making the leap.  That said, I leave it to the reader to do their own extrapolation of your position.

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 04/29/2007 at 02:11 AM

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So Sadie, reprehensible or not in your book?

Yes.

I agree with pretty much everything else he’s said, though.

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nowiser United States Posted on 04/29/2007 at 04:09 AM

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I believe that pinning you down on this would be quite revealing for those not currently making the leap

There’s a need to -pin- me down on this?  Consi, if you’re trying to get people to pile on or shout me down, invite them to do so. 

My position is defensible, whether it makes you, or Sadie, or veterans, or anyone -else- uncomfortable or not.  The sheer number of people who are upset with me has -no- bearing on whether or not my position is correct.

Did I have this position when I was eighteen?  No.  Could I have been persuaded to kill people for my country, at some point in my life?  Without a doubt.  Hell, I probably would have seen myself as downright heroic.

Do I expect contemporary young men and women to -not- buy into the same garbage that I did?  Of course not.

Is their individual responsibility greater than that of the country and population that sends them off to fight?  Not even close, even if they -are- the ones pulling the triggers.

Are they exempt?

NO.  If they are, then good intentions can absolve one of even the most horrific acts, and I just can’t accept that premise. 

But my main interest isn’t in trying to paint soldiers as -bad- people.  My main interest is in trying to suck every last drop of heroic bullshit out of the act of shooting other people, or getting killed, in a war.

You call the glorification of soldiers ‘reverence’.  I call it a scam to convince other gullible young men and women to sacrifice everything for what is usually some pretty pedestrian, slimy, money-driven, ego-driven bullshit.

Go ahead Consi.  Invite people to pile on.  I’m not shy.  I’ll dance with anyone.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

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