First paragraph - agreed

Do I think less of those who don’t stand? yup

There is the feeling that it’s not going to physically change anything, as one major reason for people not doing so and also political apathy. It may be showing respect but that doesn’t help anyone and it doesn’t bring dead soldiers back to life, it feels a little pointless

Politically there is also the feeling that even if it did change something that it would find another way to corrupt itself, and these feelings get intertwined.

but I realize the 7 years I spent in Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children (USMC) was all for this right as well as the right not to be harassed beaten or any other repercussion for not standing

Agreed, 100%

the material that makes the flag I won’t pledge to but to the country

I wasn’t sure what you meant - physical materials like cloth and dye?

Andrew, you ignorrant slut…..

You say the flag stands for (blah blah whatever you said blah blah)?

Bullshit. There’s nothing printed on the flag telling you what it stands for. There’s nothing in the Constitution that says, “Hey, this is what our flag standss for.“ You have decided what this symbol means TO YOU and have extrapolated outwards, insisting that it means the same thing to everyone. It doesn’t.

And I’d prefer we ban children from standing for the flag. How’s that for radical? See. most children, they have no idea what the flag stands for, what principles the country is based on or what makes this country different from other countries. They’re standing because they’re told to stand, blindly worshipping a symbol for no reason at all.

I’ll let you in on a little secret, Andrew. Symbols are the first thing a governemnt introduces to control the minds of their citizens. It’s a precursor to facism. I’m not saying our country is fascist, far from it, but the blind worship of a symbol may eventually lead us there.

To me the flag represents freedom. Specifically the freedom to stand or not stand, recite or not recite, honor or not honor, however one sees fit for whatever reasons they may have. It’s that simple.

Elwed,

I’m out to a club for awhile.  I’ll come back later tonight or early tomorrow to comment further on your remarks.

NW:

They’re the only damn government worker on the planet that it’s anathema to bitch about.

They also happen to be the only ones that put themselves into harm’s way to the extent that they do.

(Les) To me the flag represents freedom. Specifically the freedom to stand or not stand, recite or not recite, honor or not honor, however one sees fit for whatever reasons they may have. It’s that simple.

It is that simple, but some people are hard of learning the simple things.

They also happen to be the only ones that put themselves into harm’s way to the extent that they do.

I’d rank cops higher on that score.

They’re the only damn government worker on the planet that it’s anathema to bitch about.

They also happen to be the only ones that put themselves into harm’s way to the extent that they do.

*(crosses fingers and hopes the attempt at quote-in-quote tags pans out)

It’s the price that comes with being worshipped by your society, and given your own religious symbol.  Take away the worship and symbols, and I’d bet that a lot -fewer- people would be so gung-ho to sign on the dotted line.  Which would be a good thing, because it’s also the only profession that I can think of where you can’t -quit- once you realize that you’ve been sold a few thousand pounds of thinly sliced, prettily wrapped bologna.  (or is it baloney?)

Yes, the military is a necessary evil. You still have to explain why this is all the flag stands for.

He doesn’t have to explain it to me.  Besides which, I’m not sure Andrew arrives at his opinion by cogitation so much as through palpitation.  Just the fact that the soldier flag seems to be the same track he comes back to, over and over, confirms me in my opinion that this really -is- what people see when they look at the American flag.

Clearly, I’m not going to win many people over to my perspective, but I never expected to.  I just didn’t see much point in standing idly by going ‘ah shucks’ while people insinuated that my position was essentially evil, or careless, or thoughtless. I -have- thought about this.  And if I was actually a man of principle, I’d probably think that my position was principled. But I’m not principled.  I’m just honest.  As I can be, that is, which is not very, as I’m human, and our essential condition is to constantly tell ourselves the bullshit that makes us feel good about ourselves. (And I feel awfully good about myself, because I’m so -honest-)

Hey nowiser, Are you saying that law enforcement and firemen don’t put themselves at risk to the extent a military person does? And from what I read your posts your position is just thoughtless. That is what is great about America, You can be thoughtless as long as you don’t break a law. Count your blessings that the soldiers fought and died in the world wars so you could voice how you feel.

Elwed:

U.S. service members in particular are decision makers—they volunteered.

True, but not at the policy level as has been suggested.  I take issue with giving any member of the military flak for policy. 

It’s difficult to apply your conclusion anywhere but in the abstract.  There will be a substantial number of individuals whose circumstances drive the decision more so than any actual deep thought on policy.

They do, but the combatants and non-combatants of the other side have families, too.

Yes.  So?

Is standing up for the flag:

1) Something you do because and only because you revere the military?

2) Something everybody should do because they should revere the military and for no other reason?

3) Something one should do for reasons other than a reverence of the military?

4) If you answer 3) in the affirmative, list the reasons.

5) Should an individual have the right to refuse to stand if he or she does not endorse whatever that person perceives the flag to stand for lock, stock, and barrel?

6) If somebody refuses to stand, do they owe you or anybody else an explanation for their reasons?

7) Is not standing for the flag an expression of patriotism?

I’ll answer these.

1) No.

2) No.

3) Yes, but reverence of the fallen may certainly be included in those reasons. 

4)

Remember folks the flag stands for America. It is not the president’s, the military’s ( each of these have their own flag) or any group in America but the citizens.  It represents the ideals of America

And in that lies a whole lot.  I’m not going to tell someone whether they should or should not stand.  I will say that I recognize why I do.  Here is why I do:

i) I stand for a more perfect Union;
ii) I stand for Justice
iii) I stand for domestic tranquility;
iv) I stand for a common defence;
v) I stand for the general welfare of the people;
vi) I stand for a system of checks and balances in a republican form of government;
vii) I stand for the right to elect a government of the people, by the people and for the people, regardless of my race or gender;
viii) I stand for civilian control of the military;
ix) I stand for the right to a trial by a jury of my peers;
x) I stand for the right to enjoy the priviliges and immunities granted to me;
xi) I stand for the right to change course when we decide, as a country, to do so;
xii) I stand for the right to free speech;
xiii) I stand for the right to a free press;
xiv) I stand for the right to assemble;
xv) I stand for the right to petition my government;
xvi) I stand for the right to bear arms)
xvii) I stand for the right to be secure in my person, papers, houses and effects;
xviii) I stand for the right to be free from double jeopardy;
xviii) I stand for the right to be free from self-incrimination;
xviv) I stand for due process under the law;
xx) I stand for just compensation for the taking of property;
xxi) I stand for the right to a speedy trial;
xxii) I stand for the right to confront witnessses against me
xxiii) I stand for the right to assistance of Counsel;
xxiv) I stand for the right to have bail;
xxv) I stand for the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment;
xxvi) I stand for the right of all men to be free;
xxvii)  I stand for equal protection under the law;
xxviii) I stand for the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;
xxviv) I stand to develop a communal spirit amongst the populance;
xxx) I stand to contribute to a sense of of common pride.

5) Of course.  I also believe their petulance should be explored as it is likely indicative of emotional immaturity.

6) Owe?  No.  May I ask? Of course. It’s a free country after all.

7) I believe the person not standing may believe it is patriotic.  Such a person would have erred in their reasoning though.

U.S. service members in particular are decision makers—they volunteered.

True, but not at the policy level as has been suggested.  I take issue with giving any member of the military flak for policy.

I’m not giving them flak for policy.

I have never been in a si

It’s difficult to apply your conclusion anywhere but in the abstract.

I believe you are mistaken about my conclusions.

There will be a substantial number of individuals whose circumstances drive the decision more so than any actual deep thought on policy.

I haven’t looked up any statistics, but I believe a significant number of service members signed up because it’s the only job they could get. Where does this leave you?

  They do, but the combatants and non-combatants of the other side have families, too.

Yes.  So?

Shame on you for that flippant remark.

I’ll answer these.

That’s nice, but it’s not your answers I’m looking for.

I’m not giving them flak for policy.

Wasn’t directed at you.

I haven’t looked up any statistics, but I believe a significant number of service members signed up because it’s the only job they could get. Where does this leave you?

In the same position.  That is part of what I was getting at with my comments.

...but it’s not your answers I’m looking for.

I know.  I’m just not as much fun.

...but it’s not your answers I’m looking for.

I know.  I’m just not as much fun.

It’s not about having fun, but about somebody who made a big deal about not getting answers while not giving any himself.

Hey nowiser, Are you saying that law enforcement and firemen don’t put themselves at risk to the extent a military person does?

The opposite, actually.  What I’m saying is that the vast majority of people don’t see police officers and firemen when they look at our flag.  More importantly, they don’t see teachers, and busdrivers and everybody else who gets up every damn day and pays their damn taxes and grumbles about their damn government.  The flag has become almost exclusively a symbol of bloody sacrifice.  IT’S A FUCKING SURROGATE CROSS, which is why it’s sacrilege to refuse to grant it special symbolic status, and treat it with appropriate reverence.

The vast majority of people look at the flag and they see dead soldiers.  And (as I’ve stated before) there are plenty of pernicious and parasitic bastards that want to rub themselves all over that flag, and mask their own rotten stench with the sweet perfume of holy sacrifice.  And they’re big on selling the whole idea of how -noble- that sacrifice is, because they want to keep their little symbolic perfume dispenser all charged up.

It’s a fucking scam, and I detect a whiff of carrion.

And from what I read of your posts your position is just thoughtless

At the risk of utter and shamefully hubristic pride, you should probably have read my posts more thoroughly.

That is what is great about America, You can be thoughtless as long as you don’t break a law.

See, I’m not so sure that’s a great thing, because I think the intensity of the patriotism in this country is actually rather -thoughtless-.  Why, there ought to be a law [/snicker]

Count your blessings that the soldiers fought and died in the world wars so you could voice how you feel

See?  It -is- a soldier flag. 

No one ever says -count your blessings that gadfly journalists and artists were willing to sacrifice commercial success and live in abject poverty because they felt it was their duty to ridicule the pretensions of power-.  No one ever says, ‘the car that you drive is the logical extension of a long line of engines, starting with coal powered steam-engines, and history is littered with the bodies of miners who died digging up the precious rocks that fueled the industry that brought you your Chevy.“

Because it’s a -soldiers’- flag.

And as for the justifiability of WWII, do you really think that a justifiable war excuses every other military misadventure the US has been caught up in?

Oh.  Right.  Sorry.  I realize my tone is slipping away from the appropriately -reverent- register that is to be used when addressing the US’s use of military power.

Consi, that’s a great fucking list.  I really like that list.  And if that’s what you see when you look at the flag, then I’m not surprised that you feel so passionately about standing for it.

But I think that that particular symbol was trampled a -long- time ago.

And as Andrew has demonstrated repeatedly, and as the media regularly demonstrates in its rah-rah (‘we’ll sell anything, as long as it’s bloody’) coverage, patriotism has come to mean, for many people, an unreserved support for the use of US military might.

How do I know?  Because that’s what people -say- when you don’t fall in line.  The -first- words out of their mouths are always ‘soldier blood shed for yooooo.‘

It strains the credulity to think that what they -really- mean, but just don’t have the skills to express, is that it is ‘our’ flag, that it belongs to all of us, and represents all of us. 

Maybe if I saw more “Go Union” bumper stickers against the backdrop of an American flag, I’d revise my opinion. 

Thoughtless, I know.

More importantly, they don’t see teachers…

 

In my opinion your own personal and professional anger, disillusionment, disenchantment and bitterness, whether justified or not, discolors your view of the world.  It is not a pleasant place to be.  I hope you move onto brighter spaces.

In my opinion your own personal and professional anger, disillusionment, disenchantment and bitterness, whether justified or not, discolors your view of the world.

Consi, the point that the meaning of a symbol is subjective has been made repeatedly.

Are you a hopeless idealist and nowiser’s a pragmatic realist?

i) I stand for a more perfect Union;

Why is it, if the American people are not polarized, that Washington is becoming ever more so – to the detriment of the national interest?
  I’m not sure that a perfect union is desirable.  Perfect union seems a little to Fascistic to me. 

ii) I stand for Justice
xxi) I stand for the right to a speedy trial;
xxii) I stand for the right to confront witnessses against me
xxiii) I stand for the right to assistance of Counsel;
xxiv) I stand for the right to have bail;
xxv) I stand for the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment;
xxvi) I stand for the right of all men to be free;
xxvii) I stand for equal protection under the law
ix) I stand for the right to a trial by a jury of my peers

Fuck him.  He’s Canadian.

iii) I stand for domestic tranquility;

Eh.  Tranquility is overrated.  Rubber bullets, now, those are entertaining!

v) I stand for the general welfare of the people;

I’ll bet she’s a Communist

vi) I stand for a system of checks and balances in a republican form of government;

Whew.  For a second there, I thought you meant a Republican form of Government.  Which would be truly unfair, because most of the Democrats jumped into this stinky pile right along with their fellows.  See?  Bush told the truth; he really -did- bring politicians together.

vii) I stand for the right to elect a government of the people, by the people and for the people, regardless of my race or gender;

shucks.
What do you expect from Socialists, for Chrissake.  And the US Civil Rights Commission?

In my opinion your own personal and professional anger, disillusionment, disenchantment and bitterness, whether justified or not, discolors your view of the world.

LOL.  You -do- realize, Consi, that you’re literally transforming into the caricature of a fundy, right before my eyes? 

You just hate God!  That’s why you’re an atheist!  Your life sucks and you’re bitter, bitter, bitter.  I hope that God’s love will touch your heart someday, and you will find true happiness

It’s not a real quote, of course, so I left out much of the grammatical and spelling “color” that usually makes these posts so entertaining.

Wait, let me try this tactic. . .

Consi, the comfort and prosperity of your life have you made you unconsciously arrogant.  It is truly sad that the baby Jesus is weeping over your failure to feel the suffering of the masses that surround you.  Your personal successes and happiness have stupified and desensitized you.  I truly hope that one day you develop the empathy that is necessary to be truly human.

Holy Shit!  That’s fun.  And super easy.  I’ll bet any half-wit with a keyboard could manage that!

Dude.  You need to stop listening to your psychic parrot’s analysis of me.  I’m not any angrier or more bitter than anyone else who looks around and see what’s going on.  And my anger isn’t professional, bro.  I’m paying my rent and getting by, and on the weekends I play video games where I get to blow shit up! 

I even have the occasional beer! 

I’m not a victim, and I’m not being ‘oppressed’ by my government.  But some people -are-.  Am I going to throw myself on the wheels of the machine and let it grind me up?  FUCK NO!  I like my life.  Perhaps if I was more miserable I would actually -do- something about what I recognize to be a pretty crappy situation -for others-.

Now bear with me, because I have some tasty, if somewhat lengthy links I want to put up.

You see, I have -my- list too!

When the fuck did Consi become a psychologist?

vi) I stand for a system of checks and balances in a republican form of government;

Whew For a second there, I thought you meant a Republican form of Government.  Which would be truly unfair, because most of the Democrats jumped into this stinky pile right along with their fellows.  See?  Bush told the truth; he really -did- bring politicians together.

vii) I stand for the right to elect a government of the people, by the people and for the people, regardless of my race or gender;

shucks.
What do you expect from Socialists, for Chrissake.  And the US Civil Rights Commission?

xii) I stand for the right to free speech;xiv) I stand for the right to assemble;

Formulated differently, the curtailment of freedom of speech and the press under the threat of foreign war weakens the country by depriving citizens of their inalienable right to examine and to judge their government,

xiii) I stand for the right to a free press;

Which makes me feel a LOT better about THIS

    Six huge corporations now control the major U.S. media: Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation (FOX, HarperCollins, New York Post, Weekly Standard, TV Guide, DirecTV and 35 TV stations), General Electric (NBC, CNBC, MSNBC, Telemundo, Bravo, Universal Pictures and 28 TV stations), Time Warner (AOL, CNN, Warner Bros., Time and its 130-plus magazines), Disney (ABC, Disney Channel, ESPN, 10 TV and 72 radio stations), Viacom (CBS, MTV, Nickelodeon, Paramount Pictures, Simon & Schuster and 183 U.S. radio stations), and Bertelsmann (Random House and its more than 120 imprints worldwide, and Gruner + Jahr and its more than 110 magazines in 10 countries).     As Phil Donahue, the former host of MSNBC’s highest-rated show who was fired by the network in February 2003 for bringing on anti-war voices, told “Democracy Now!,“ “We have more [TV] outlets now, but most of them sell the Bowflex machine. The rest of them are Jesus and jewelry. There really isn’t diversity in the media anymore. Dissent? Forget about it.“

And mainstream media wonders why people turn to journalism blogs for news?   

xvii) I stand for the right to be secure in my person, papers, houses and effects;

In 1994, President Clinton expanded the use of warrantless searches to entirely domestic situations with no foreign intelligence value whatsoever. In a radio address promoting a crime-fighting bill, Mr. Clinton discussed a new policy to conduct warrantless searches in highly violent public housing projects. Well, at least I know I can rest secure in the knowledge that at least Democrats won’t suspend Constitutional protections when the find it convenient to do so.  After all, they’re the good guys.

xviii) I stand for the right to be free from self-incrimination;
xviv) I stand for due process under the law;

Ronald Kitchen kneed and beaten with nightsticks repeatedly in the groin. Darrell Cannon shocked with a cattle prod to the lips and genitals. Aaron Patterson suffocated with a typewriter cover. Philip Adkins beaten so badly that he urinates and defecates on himself in the police car. And according to the report, this was repeated dozens and dozens of times.  I’m just happy that this is the exception to the rule, and that there was nothing -systemically wrong- here.
8 Corcoran officers have been indicted for arranging prison fights for recreation.

xx) I stand for just compensation for the taking of property;

We believe the government’s conduct in forfeiture cases leaves much to be desired. We are certainly not the first to be ‘enormously troubled by the government’s increasing and virtually unchecked use of the civil forfeiture statutes and the disregard for due process that is buried in those statutes’“ (Quoting Judge George Pratt in US v. All Assets of Statewide Auto Parts, Inc., 971 F.2d 896, 905 (2d Cir. 1992)). US v. $506,231 in U.S. Currency, 125 F.3d 442 (7th Cir. 1997)
The Reform Act does not, however, offer a cure for forfeiture’s greatest ongoing ill, the direct disbursement of forfeited revenues to law enforcement agencies, and the general reliance on forfeited proceeds as a revenue raising device

xxx) I stand to contribute to a sense of of common pride.

Sometimes a little humility is better for the soul, and the common good.

You sure you don’t want to pull up a chair?

Sorry.  I know, pointing at these things demonstrates a certain amount of, uhm, what was it again. . . oh, right, petulance and immaturity.

A -mature- intellect realizes that these are just freakish deviations from the norm that is our benificent, warm and caring system of representative government.

Remember.  God loves you.  America is great.

Consi, the point that the meaning of a symbol is subjective has been made repeatedly.

Point taken.

I like the satire this song paints of who ‘supports’ the soldiers.
The song is called Chickenhawk and it’s all about Gutless Wanker Bush and the other fuckers who didn’t do war themselves cos they were your common garden variety of coward and therefore sent other mothers’ sons cos they still wanted to ‘play’ war games.

Hey nowiser,

If you hate America and it’s flag so bad I invite you to leave if you are here and go somewhere that doesn’t honor their flag, soldiers or anything else but themselves. Seems to me like what you do.

If you aren’t here then I invite you to stay out of this country so you don’t dirty yourself with the way of life here

Not everyone here has turned the flag into an idol. I myself respect the country it stands for not what the current government is doing to it.

If you aren’t here then I invite you to stay out of this country so you don’t dirty yourself with the way of life here

So Charles is that the American way?  Kick out those we don’t agree with.  What a true American attitude that is. 

Not everyone here has turned the flag into an idol. I myself respect the country it stands for not what the current government is doing to it.

Telling someone to leave the country cause you disagree with what they say sounds like a move Bush would support and sign into law if he didn’t have advisers telling him no.

Charles, “love it or leave it” is an inane and asinine response no nowiser. I thought you were supposed to unconditionally defend his freedom to be unpopular with your crowd?

Hey Charles,
If you hate free speech and dissenting opinions so much, I invite you leave the country for someplace where blind loyalty are more customary virtues.