Would you care to spell out why a soldier who dies in a war deserves to be honored? If you answer at all, kindly refrain from insinuating any motives for asking this question.

Elwed, this is going to have to hold for a bit.  I’m on the road right now, but I will come back to this.

Consi, take your time…

If we invade France tomorrow because we are told that they have WMD’s and intend to use them on American soil, the soldier has no moral culpability in that decision.

I don’t care if they were caught slaughtering bunnies with anthrax, these are the folks who created croissants!  Anyone who can develop a food with this high of a butter-to-flour ratio deserves some serious reverence. 

I greatly respect what Charles had to say about his service, and his stance.  I don’t think his perspective is unique among servicemen, but I think it’s probably pretty rare.

A nice Catch22 and a fair amount of responsibility to place on the shoulders of something known in the military as a grunt.

It’s a lot to expect out of any 18-24 year old...or anyone really. I mean, that’s an awful lot of abstract thought that most people devote to trivia and TV and getting laid.

It’s just easier to let people tell you how to think, which is why so many leaders recommend it.

It’s just easier to let people tell you how to think, which is why so many leaders recommend it.

Absolutely but it’s not a matter of “let people tell you how to think”.
When the army took me (I can only speak for myself) from civvy street into its folds the goal was to break me then remake me in its image and they’ve had a few hundred years of practice – I, on the other hand, had only 22 years practice of being me.
I was told “You’re not paid to think” many times cos I was a bit of a rebel and didn’t (don’t) like authority. Nevertheless I was a ‘good’ soldier up to a point.
I mentioned the My Lai Massacre earlier. I knew blokes who woulda taken part in something like that in a heart beat cos they hated so much – I still know blokes who hate ALL Asians. A lot of training/programming is sticky.

As an observation, one of the main differences between Vietnam and now is that to feed the War Machine in Vietnam there was the draft in US and Oz which ensured a cross section of IQs.
Now there are only volunteers ... so far. Would it be a stretch to assume the bottom end of your War Machine isn’t as bright as it was back then?
But I have no idea why I brought that up - maybe cos I and war didn’t get on very well together and still don’t.
Maybe this whole subject of soldiers and war is like a carrot for me and I feel I have to justify my existence or something.
Maybe it’s a blind loyalty thing.
Weird shit when I stand back and wonder how much is bullshit.

Anyone who can develop a food with this high of a butter-to-flour ratio deserves some serious reverence.

Ever had a Sachertorte, nowiser?  Put Austria on your list of revered nations too.

As an observation, one of the main differences between Vietnam and now is that to feed the War Machine in Vietnam there was the draft in US and Oz which ensured a cross section of IQs.

I don’t know about IQ, but the draft did ensure a more equitable cross section of income and educational groups in the military.  The volunteer army may be one reason we don’t yet have as much opposition to the war as we did in the final years of the Vietnam War.  Since today’s soldiers enlist on their own free will, and are poorer and worse educated than average Americans, their lives are more expendable.

Would you care to spell out why a soldier who dies in a war deserves to be honored?

There are several reasons why a soldier who dies in a war deserves to be honored, regardless of whether the war is viewed in hindsight or foresight as just.

First, any woman or man that is willing to fight for their country deserves to be honored for that willingness.  It takes a lot of courage and bravery, in a time in which there is an ongoing conflict/war to sign up to serve during these times or to show up when drafted.  The simple willingness to serve is worthy of honor and respect.

Second, (and I’m working from the U.S. system of military service) soldiers are not decision-makers with respect to going to war or entering a conflict.  Within our system, the military takes its orders from the President.  The President presumably is elected by the people.  So, the military is supposed to be subject to the will of the people. 

When any young man or woman dies from doing what the people asked he/she to do, we the people, owe them a thank you at the very least.  Giving them praise and honor for doing their job to the best of their ability is only right.  We bestow praise and honor on the CEO for doing his job, so too for the soldier.  He/she is no less of a man or woman than the CEO, nor should they be treated as such.

Third, the young women and men that do undertake the very tough job of carrying out an ill conceived mission do have families.  Simple human kindness demands that I honor the loss of a son/daughter suffered by a neighbor.  I can’t even began to grasp the emotional makeup of someone who would spit on these families for coming to a different decision about the conflict that eventually cost them their life.

Fourth, everybody is different.  Just as different computers have different processors that allow it different capabilitis, so do we, especially at different ages.  So, when another individual makes a decision, whether I agree or disagree with the decision, absent any hard evidence to the contrary I’m going to impute only the best motives for the actions.  Accordingly, it is my belief that young men and women who sign up for service are doing what they believe is right.  Simply because I disagree, that doesn’t entitle me to blame them when I lack the perfect knowledge to assing any blame.

It is a point that zilch made and with which I agree.  The result is that I believe the default position is to honor the fallen because we asked them to serve and they did.  If that is not the default position, you can’t raise an army absent a draft.

Finally, and this is a reason not to criticize the fallen, to criticize the military for what is perceived as an unjust war simply punishes those that are doing what we tell them to do.  Our system is set up for the military to advise the President on policy, not unilaterally make decisions regarding policy.  When an individual starts talking about independent thinking, at least with respect to the justness of a conflict/war, well, I can’t think of a better way to making the military independent of the political process, and much more dangerous to the people in the process.

I’ve got to get ready for work, but I’ll try to get back to this sometime over the weekend.

In the meantime I’m going to try to give a shorthand reply, just to present a general thrust of where I differ [strongly].

1.  Willingness to serve.  I’m with you on this one.  It does demonstrate a certain degree of courage and a hefty helping of a service ethic.  Kudos to them.

2.  Military is supposed to be subject to the will—soldiers don’t make choices about when and where conflicts will be fought.
Ultimately, soldiers are the -final- arbiters of whether or not war will happen.  They make a -decision-.  We, as a society, make it very, very difficult for them to make any -other- decision, and I contend that every time we get all rah-rah over a flag, or the national anthem, we’re piling more bricks onto the side of the scale that says ‘obey.’

3.  Soldiers are like anybody else doing a tough job. 
I agree.  Let’s treat them in the same way.  We don’t -honor- CEOs in the same way as we honor soldiers.  No one is attempting to pass legislation to prevent people from disrespecting the Microsoft Logo.  It’s not sacrilege to question Bill’s business practices, and while someone might be called an ‘asshole’ for doing so, it’s unlikely that the appellation would be applied because that someone was considered -morally reprehensible. 

My contention isn’t that we should -dishonor- soldiers, it’s that we need to stop deifying them.

And we are deifying them.  Every time we talk about soldiers, we talk about their -sacrifice-.  They’re the only damn government worker on the planet that it’s anathema to bitch about.  People weep and get all teary during the Anthem.  They mentally pat themselves on the back when they salute the flag, and swear their undying allegiance.  Hell, citizens delude themselves into thinking that they -share-, in some small part, the soldiers’ burden.  I’m gonna get me a ribbon for my SUV! 

The conflation of the -honor- that we give to other members of our society, and the positively religious fervor that surrounds the worship of the soldier archetype is like establishing a ‘goodness’ equivalence between Lima beans and German chocolate fudge cake.

began to grasp the emotional makeup of someone who would spit on these families

Uh.  Duh.  It’s because soldiers are rapists and baby-killers.  I thought everyone knew that.

Bullshit rhetoric aside, let’s look at

Simple human kindness demands that I honor the loss of a son/daughter suffered by a neighbor

Honor it?  I can understand mourning it, seeing it as a tragedy, regretting the shameful waste of youthful idealism in the service of bullshit, but honoring it?  By that standard we should -honor- people for absentmindedly stepping out in front of busses, or drowning because they forgot to wear a lifevest.  People die for all sorts of mundane reasons, every day.  The truth is that war is just as mundane -except we make up this story about how it isn’t-.  We pretend it’s this special, sacred -thing-.  The province of warriors and mighty heroes.

Wow.  Look at that.  I’ve got an erection.  The war -idea- is a pretty ‘potent’ and, uhm, ‘stirring’ concept, now, isn’t it?

4.  Capacity for decision making.
I fully agree with ninety percent of what you say here. 

it is my belief that young men and women who sign up for service are doing what they believe is right

Of course they do.  How could they possibly think anything else?  Do we even give them a -chance- to think anything else?  Do we even give them an opportunity to entertain the possibility that perhaps the flag isn’t some sacred thing, that military service isn’t the height of nobility, and that perhaps, maybe, the -right- thing to do would be to NOT join the military?

I’d like to give them that chance.  I think if -we- [since you insist I’m complicit in the farce] are going to send them out to get blown up, and to blow up others, owe them at least a fair shot at seeing the full picture.

I realize that this might put a dent in the recruitment numbers, but the alternative is just a little too ‘used car salesmen’ for me.  And I have difficulty understanding the emotional make-up of people who are “OK” with that.

Consi, which question did you answer—why an American should honor fallen American soldiers or why any person should honor any and all fallen soldiers?

First, any woman or man that is willing to fight for their country deserves to be honored for that willingness

When understood in the most general sense, such honor must be tempered with other considerations.

Second, (and I’m working from the U.S. system of military service) soldiers are not decision-makers

U.S. service members in particular are decision makers—they volunteered.

Third, the young women and men that do undertake the very tough job of carrying out an ill conceived mission do have families.

They do, but the combatants and non-combatants of the other side have families, too.

Fourth, everybody is different.  (...) Accordingly, it is my belief that young men and women who sign up for service are doing what they believe is right.

You can believe to be right and yet commit a terrible wrong.

Finally, and this is a reason not to criticize the fallen, to criticize the military for what is perceived as an unjust war simply punishes those that are doing what we tell them to do. Our system is set up (...)

And other systems are different.

I neither agree nor disagree with your original proposition, that a fallen soldier deserves more or less honor depending on whether the beholder considers the war just or unjust. What matters to me is why an individual came to be a soldier in the first place, how the war they participated in was prosecuted, and how the soldier conducted him- or herself. I have no problem to acknowledge that a soldier followed his beliefs and sacrificed for a cause or was a poor schmuck caught in the war machine, yet at the same time condemn them wholeheartedly for doing what they did.

nowiser’s comment on CEOs & soldiers is ludicrous.  I don’t remember or recall CEO’s risking their lives for someone’s elses cause whether justified or not. Standing up for the flag does not mean you support the war or any war and telling people they should not join the military or not joining the military is the wrong thing.  WOuldn’t the world be a wonderful place if we had no military here in the United States and no one joined.  That idea is proposterous.  Civil disobedience only works if the other sied cares about outside pressures.  As much as I think Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. did worked, I also recognize that it doesn’t always work.  Do you honestly think that the NAZI’s would have been stopped by civil disobedience or no military involvement?  It would be a wonderful world if we chose our duties and obligations but we do not and should not. 

I’ll end w/ a quote from Martin Niemoller, a German preacher during WWII:  “The Nazis came first for the Communists, but I wasn’t a communist, so I didn’t speak up.  Then they came for the Jews, but I wasn’t a Jew so I didn’t speak up.  Then they came for the trade unionists, but I wasn’t a trade unionist so I didn’t speak up.  Then they came for the Catholics, but I was Protestant so I didn’t speak up.
Then they came for me.  By that time, there was no one left to speak up.”

Thank God, Allah, Zeus, Buddha, Vishnu or whoever, but thank someone we have soldiers.

A good friend of mine joined the Navy Reserve right after 9/11, and was called to serve last December, for at least a year. We worked together for many years, and often discussed religion, politics and our shared passion for the Constitution and the ideals of this nation’s founders.

I’ll ask him directly, but I’m pretty sure he’d never consider my refusal to stand for the Pledge (which is a 30-year old thing for me now) as a failure to honor him, and all of the men and women serving in the military. My father was a veteran of two wars, and I have always been aware of the distinction between supporting the troops and supporting the causes they’ve been ordered to serve.

My friend the Lieutenant, just before being deployed told me (paraphrased), “I’m going over there to do what I do, in the job they’ll give me; you just keep doing what you do over here (my First Amendment and anti-this-"war" activism).”

So for me, every time I don’t stand for a Pledge of Allegiance that was turned into an endorsement of one belief system in violation of my religious freedom, I am honoring my friend and every soldier who has fought and/or died defending my right to protest and register my grievance with a government that marginalizes atheists and wipes its ass with the Constitution.

Andrew, let’s see if we can get a few answers out of you of for a change.

Is standing up for the flag:

1) Something you do because and only because you revere the military?

2) Something everybody should do because they should revere the military and for no other reason?

3) Something one should do for reasons other than a reverence of the military?

4) If you answer 3) in the affirmative, list the reasons.

5) Should an individual have the right to refuse to stand if he or she does not endorse whatever that person perceives the flag to stand for lock, stock, and barrel?

6) If somebody refuses to stand, do they owe you or anybody else an explanation for their reasons?

7) Is not standing for the flag an expression of patriotism?

Standing up for the flag does not mean you support the war or any war and telling people they should not join the military or not joining the military is the wrong thing.

Well, then, Andrew, what exactly does standing up for the flag mean for you?  Should schoolkids be forced (or shamed into) making a pledge they can’t be expected to critically evaluate?  Should North Korean kids be forced to sing “We Pledge Allegiance to Kim II Sung”?  Does patriotism make the world a better place, or perhaps is patriotism only good in good countries?

As far as honoring soldiers goes: I would say on the whole, we’d be better off with honoring the whole planet, and especially with honoring those who will come after us.  If I honor my country by killing you, and you honor your country by killing me, are we both doing the honorable thing?

Patriotism is not only the last refuge of the scoundrel- it’s often the first refuge of the self-righteous.

My Opinion:
First - forcing any student to recite any pledge of allegiance is criminal.  Only fascist nations needs unwavering patriotism.

Second - whether you like it or not, in the US military, our service men and women are trained to react and obey.  As KPG and others have said.  If you disagree with this system fine, but that is how it is currently being done.  I myself have not served but I know quite a few who have and their stories all have a familiar theme to them.

Third - because of how or military system is set up it is unfair to put all the blame on the military personnel for certain situations.  For example: Orders are given that your unit is to go into the nearest town and do searches for terrorists in a block.  You know these orders came down from the top and you need to follow them.  If you don’t you will be court martialed, fined, jailed, and likely un-able to get a decent job for the rest of your life since the military was the only thing you had going for you.  Plus no University or College will accept you cause you barely made it through high school and since you cannot say you were in the military, it just looks like you did nothing for 3 years.

So you follow orders and search houses for terrorists.  You keep kicking down doors and rushing in to clear rooms.  You get to the last door on the block and unbeknownst to you are a group of terrorist with a 50 cal machine gun waiting.

Does the military member that just got shot down deserve to be honored.  To me yes.  Not for kicking down doors as part of a bullshit exercise, or for fighting in the most worthless and pointless war, Iraq.  But for following orders and choosing to fight in our military when my pussy-ass would not stand up.  For joining a military in a time of war knowing that you might be killed in battle.

If you dislike the system we have for our military, pushing out order following drones, then go after the system.  Don’t denigrate the military service men and women because they are doing what they are told after going through 6 months of training to learn how to do what they are told.

Now that being said, I do think that military members should be taught to think on their own once they get to a higher position, where there can be flexibility in questioning orders.  And I especially think Generals should be able to question authority.  To me it’s ridiculous that we don’t hear about how this war is bullshit from Generals until after they resign.

I have never forced anyone to recite or stand up.  However, If one is in my presence who does not stand up I would question them and find out why?  Am I going to punch them out, of course not but I would let them know my own position too.  I served my country in the USMC and left in 2002.  I was luckily enough to not have to go to war.  Many of you pointed out that soldiers fight for their brothers & sisters in battle which is true and I would have done the same.  However, I joined b/c I felt I had a duty to pay back in some small way for the freedoms that we all enjoy, like these freedoms to have open dialogue and discussions about topics that we are all passionate about.  I currently teach high school and have had several students who choose not to recite the pledge and have also had several students who did not stand at all.  If they choose not to stand I tell them my position and me feelings then I tell them to do what they want.  The Flag to me trancends politics and is not political.  The Flag is a symbol that stands for greater things, ideals that are perfect, a utopia that we would strive to create, an ideal that says we must help those who can’t help themselves. Would you agree that a crucifix is a symbol for Christianity, or the Star of David is a symbol for Jewdaism?  If so than I would expect Christians to stand up for the Crucifix and Jews to stand up for the Star even though there are some bad Christian leaders out there and bad Jewish leaders.  If the flag is a symbol of the United States of America than if you are proud to be an American then I would expect you to stand.  If you have the freedom to not stand, than I should have the freedom to criticize those who do not in an open forum.

If you have the freedom to not stand, than I should have the freedom to criticize those who do not in an open forum.

You certainly do have the freedom to criticize Andrew, but why would you?  Why does it upset you that students do not stand?  Or better yet, why do you feel the need to tell them your stance when they choose not to stand?

What I am trying to do is get you to admit the truth behind your statements.  You want the students to stand, because you wouldn’t bother those who didn’t if you didn’t want them to.  If you really didn’t care whether they stood or not then you would just let them be.

That is why a free society is great.  Because we don’t have to force our beliefs on others.  We can live and let live.

Why not use this as an opportunity to educate and debate?  Are these people so weak in their convictions that they can’t defend them?  Why not take this as an opportunity to teach about sacrifice and in this modern world there are things more important than oneself?  The modern day student is often so self-absorbed that he fails to recognize the sacrifices of others.  Many of you sit there, type and pat each other on the back, telling them its O.K., don’t stand, you don’t have to, the flag is not a symbol of patriotism, its a symbol of war and cohersion etc. etc. etc.  So What are you protesting, nothing b/c its not heard, you sit b/c of ignorance or misrepresentation of your own beliefs.  You lump standing for the flag in with reciting the pledge, its not the same thing.  The world is not a perfect place, there is evil everywhere, there are bad people out there, so why not stand to honor those who choose to live and die?  I just don’t get it, I hate George Bush so I am going to sit, I hate the war so I am going to sit, the American gov’t hates me so I sit. Are you serious, there is no “Machine,” there is no conspiracy against atheist.  How about standing to recognize the fact that you can be an atheist or whatever you want b/c of other’s sacrificing.  I don’t think its too much to ask, but for many of you it is.  I don’t hate you, I feel sorry for you.  Keep on sitting and sleeping and one day you might wake up under someone elses authority.

Andrew, how about answering some questions first before launching into a narrative? This is getting more tiresome by the post.

I currently teach high school and have had several students who choose not to recite the pledge and have also had several students who did not stand at all.  If they choose not to stand I tell them my position and me feelings then I tell them to do what they want.

Depending on circumstance, you may well have crossed a line by questioning a student that I as a parent would not want you cross.

As I have repeatedly stated before, as far as I’m concerned it is none of your business (particularly none of a teacher’s business) why a student doesn’t recite the pledge or why they don’t stand.

The Flag is a symbol that stands for greater things

Some people have a strong bias—if not a taboo—against the worship of symbols.

If the flag is a symbol of the United States of America than if you are proud to be an American then I would expect you to stand.

Ludicrous. What has a student done to be proud of an accident of birth? Why is it even a good thing to be proud of being a citizen of this nation or that?

If you have the freedom to not stand, than I should have the freedom to criticize those who do not in an open forum.

You never answered any challenges on the issue of coercion, did you? I suppose your students should be glad you don’t punch them out… You can ask questions here on this forum, though, it’s just that you’re not really good at the answering part.

The reasons why you do what you do are not relevant for the purposes of this topic. It is material, though, that you can’t seem to grasp that it’s not your job as a teacher to mold staunch patriots.

It’s a pity this thread has concentrated on patriotism=military. I have a great love of my country WHILE STILL hating some of the things the Governments have done.

A country is more than a set of laws. It is a community of people who chance, choice and heritage have banded together. If you choose to join that country, you should understand that you choose them more than they choose you, and forcing change into ‘the old country’ is not your remit.
If you are (legally) born there your relationship will always be more complex.  You did not make that choice, but you should respect what the community heritage is- you are part of it, you are born from it.  But the community must also respect your right to look at the status quo and say “NO! There is a better way.”

If “Western Democracy” means anything it means this. It is not about a ‘x’ every 4 years, it is about the community shaping the future for the many, not the few.  It is about more than money, it is about the quality of life for those who inherit the future from us.

A flag is the symbol of the hopes of those it represent it.  You can hate the military intervention, while respecting those in the military who are ordered to intervene.

When the values attached to a flag are not the values of those called upon to respect it, then it is no longer a symbol deserving respect, but it also in the remit and the duty of the masses to restore that respect to the flag.

Ridiculous.  You don’t want your son or daughter to be questioned.  I want to be questioned all the time and I tell my students to question everything they hear from teachers including myself, politicians, the radio etc.  Why not give as much information as possible and let them make their own decisions?  Your son/daughter probably suffers from the disease known as Parent Impaired.  If the student continues to sit or not recite the pledge do I badger them, no, do I continue 45 times to say this is what the flag means to me until they agree, no.  I give them a perspective and allow them to make their own decisions. 

Who said anything about symbol worship or idol worship?  Get real.

I am thankful I got lucky enough to be an accident in this country and not an accident in North Korea or Iraq or Bangladesh or any other country.

(Andrew) Why not use this as an opportunity to educate and debate?

Why don’t you go first?

Are these people so weak in their convictions that they can’t defend them?

The issue is not they can or cannot defend themselves, although students are at a disadvantage against their teachers and the principal. The issue is that they have to defend themselves in the first place.

Why not take this as an opportunity to teach about sacrifice and in this modern world there are things more important than oneself?

Like oil? Enculturation by driving an SUV to the mall and spend money you don’t have? Being a good patriot?

The modern day student is often so self-absorbed that he fails to recognize the sacrifices of others.

Newsflash: Students have always been self-absorbed. They’re just acting their age.

Many of you sit there, type and pat each other on the back, telling them its O.K., don’t stand, you don’t have to, the flag is not a symbol of patriotism,

Back up. We say the flag is not a symbol of patriotism? What do we say it is a symbol of?

its a symbol of war and cohersion etc. etc. etc.

It’s a symbol that has different meanings to different people.

So What are you protesting, nothing b/c its not heard, you sit b/c of ignorance or misrepresentation of your own beliefs.

That’s a bit incoherent and to lumpy. I have consistently defended the student’s right of freedom of expression, whether you or I agree with them or not. With some exceptions, you don’t know who stands or not; you’re rather free with the accusation of ignorance and I can’t figure out why we’d sit because our own beliefs are misrepresented (by whom?).

You lump standing for the flag in with reciting the pledge, its not the same thing.

Actually, we don’t or at least, not all of us do.

Recital of the pledge is something I’m strongly opposed to and not just because of the nod to the Christian deity. We could go over the wording line by line, but I don’t see that it’s worth the effort on my part.

Standing is a different issue, but part and parcel of the same ceremony and the same misguided enpatriotismation attempt (if there is such a word).

The world is not a perfect place, there is evil everywhere, there are bad people out there, so why not stand to honor those who choose to live and die?

Like the Iraqi freedom fighters?

Yes, the military is a necessary evil. You still have to explain why this is all the flag stands for.

I just don’t get it, I hate George Bush so I am going to sit, I hate the war so I am going to sit, the American gov’t hates me so I sit.

Students are usually to young to vote. What else are they going to do if that’s how they feel? Hating Bush is actually a good enough reason to sit out the pledge…

Are you serious, there is no “Machine,” there is no conspiracy against atheist.

I had to go back and look up all references to “machine”. What subject do you teach?

In the U.S. military, there is apperently conspiracy against atheists—it’s like green-lighting discriminating against African-American not because they’re black, but because they’re not white. Atheists are the most despised minority in the U.S.—but your point here is?

How about standing to recognize the fact that you can be an atheist or whatever you want b/c of other’s sacrificing.  I don’t think its too much to ask, but for many of you it is.

How about getting that it’s none of your business why a student won’t stand?

I don’t hate you, I feel sorry for you.

The feeling is mutual.

Keep on sitting and sleeping and one day you might wake up under someone elses authority.

Between the Patriot Act and the Torture and Disappearing Act (whatever it’s officially called), we’re already there.

Would you consider it being forward for someone to interrogate you for why you choose to stand for the pledge then? Or is that ok too? Why do you find the need to confront people who express themselves differently than you do? I’m an atheist, but I’d consider it pretty rude to confront random people in prayer and tell them all the reasons I think they’re delusional and superstitious.

I’ve been coerced to go to churches in the past, but in most of them I haven’t gotten the “You fucker, stand up because Jesus died for you” speech that you’re essentially saying that you’d attempt to lay on someone in name of soldiers who have even less likely marketability. If everyone acted like the dead Jew presumably commanded them to, then maybe things might not suck very much. But if every soldier did some of the things that make good soldiers (killing and dying) then we’d all be in a shittier pickle than we usually are.

And what do you do if you’re all trying to be righteously and “educational” upon someone who didn’t stand and they simply tell you to back off? You’re looking for a confrontation, and people who start shit like that don’t back off. “I’m only trying to have a discussion” while harassing strangers is sort of bullshit passive aggressive isn’t it? You know, the sort that you have to have a license for when you carry a sign and there’s more than three of you?

(Andrew)Ridiculous.

Well, I love you, too.

You don’t want your son or daughter to be questioned.

I don’t want them to be questioned in a manner that amounts to coercing them into doing something they don’t want to. If you haven’t figured this out yet, you never will.

I want to be questioned all the time and I tell my students to question everything they hear from teachers including myself, politicians, the radio etc.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Why not give as much information as possible and let them make their own decisions?

Oddly enough, that’s exactly what I and my wife are doing.

elwed: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

He’s married? Could be either way - he could be frustrated that he’s not (and hence be taking it out on SEB) or feel like he’s got everything sorted so he can do as he will

I don’t have the patience to engage andrew right now, looking over the thread there’s the feeling of talking to a brick wall. Andrew needs to be willing to hear stuff outside of what he wants to

Remember folks the flag stands for America. It is not the president’s, the military’s ( each of these have their own flag) or any group in America but the citizens. It represents the ideals of America such as freedom,tolerance, and respect for one’s self and others. By representing these ideals it represents the fact a person does not HAVE to do things if they are against that person’s beliefs and does not harm another in this country.

Do I think less of those who don’t stand? yup but I realize the 7 years I spent in Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children (USMC) was all for this right as well as the right not to be harassed beaten or any other repercussion for not standing. Just as I as a member of pagan clergy do not include under god during the pledge since I see this as government being involved in religion. Besides the material that makes the flag I won’t pledge to but to the country.