Speaking from personal experience, I’ve found that when I need to go back and clarify my position, what I really need to do is re-think the validity of that position.

Um,

Guell said Rachel may have misinterpreted concern for her well-being as an attempt to change her behavior.

This sounds like they were planning to take her into protective custody.

As far as I’m concerned, the pledge itself should go, God and all.

What scares me is that for every one who thinks for themselves and does not turn into a sheeple, how many just give in and comply out of the not-so-veiled threat of being singled out for retribution by either the school or their schoolmates?

This principal should be sent of for a ‘reeducation’ on what she has no right to interfere with, and how to build self-esteem in her charges, instead of tearing it down.

Sadly, our society has come to a point where it’s almost impossible to take anyone at their word.  The Pledge has proven itself to be completely meaningless over these decades since it’s constantly being reneged on by anyone who ever claimed to be a communist, atheist, or anything but a true blue apple pie Real American. And it’s also been rendered useless by every single politician who ends “with liberty and justice for all”, walks back into the Capitol and decides which money should be spent on whose airplane while blocks away the homeless cry.  Please forget the pledge.  Please refuse to lie anymore.  And attention adults at this school in Wisconsin: please don’t be afraid of a little girl who doesn’t agree with you.  Her decision to sit is what makes the Pledge possible. Perhaps my comments are terse;  perhaps they’re tedious.  Feedback is welcome.  This is my first visit. I did a google search on “evil” and got here.  Thanks

Good for Rachael. I have been not standing for the pledge of allegiance since I was in junior high during Vietnam.  It always kinda’ creeped me out looking over the sea of blank-eyed faces mindlessly reciting something they gave little or no thought to.  Reminded me of watching old newsreels of Nazi rallys.

This incident reminds me of a what happened to a friend and classmate when we were in the sixth grade.  We were having some lame school assembly to celebrate the acheivements of some of the burgeoning Einsteins in my school before which we were to stand and say the pledge of allegience and honor both our country’s flag and our state flag (Mississippi).  My friend refused to stand and honor either flag stating that she wouldn’t honor flags of a country or state that seemed immune to the plight of all people of color.  The teacher reprimanded her in front of the entire school assembly and led her out of the gym.  She ended up getting detention for this episode and I’ll never forget thinking, what in the world was wrong with her not standing and saluting the flag? What makes people so scared of people who chose not to salute the flag?

Also my old aunt had to stand up for the pledge. At first you could refuse, later you had to take the consequences like not getting a job and so on. But this was over 60 years ago, in Germany.
It’s kind of funny to look from outside to America. As a German living in Italy I feel at home in various countries in Europe, but standing up for the pledge, no. For me, I am curious to live a year or so in the USA to see how the society is running here.

Not to forget that 60 years ago, the same gesture was used here and there…

My feelings for this topic are the least you could do is stand out of respect for the people who are dying for you…Everyday another american gives his life so you can have the decision to stand or not…The least you could do is pay lip service…You’re all fucked in the head…Fuck yourselves

Paying Lip Service to Allegiance. How apt.

What amuses me most about Aaron’s reply is that he’s basically saying the following:

“The least you could do is lie to the rest of us so we can continue to experience the warm fuzzies that come form a false sense of conformity.“

You want me to lie to you Aaron? OK, how’s this:

You are an amazingly intelligent and thoughtful individual who’s stunning insight has changed my mind on this controversial issue and from now on I’ll be sure to stand up and respectfully recite the Pledge to the flag while feeling suitably guilty over my lack of consideration for those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice on my behalf.

Feel better now Aaron?

Les, there’s a very simple question for the True Patriots like Aaron:

“What have *you* done for your country?“

No, telling folks who think this country is getting fucked over to fuck off does not count. Enlisting in the Oil Protection Force is a possible winner, though.

Are you all serious?  Give me a break.  Don’t you have something else to defend.  No one said she had to say the pledge.  It is custom to stand, to take hats off for the National Anthem etc.  You can’t say anything or correct anyone anymore without offending someone.  The act of standing is a way to honor those that came before us, that led the way.  If you don’t agree with the pledge that doesn’t make you unamerican, so don’t say it.  But if you fail to honor the ones that helped give you that right than maybe you are unamerican.

So you’re saying that people shouldn’t be free enough in this “Land of the Free” to decide whom, how, and when they’ll honor those who came before us?

Perhaps you can explain to me how forcing someone to honor those who came before us whether they want to or not in any way makes that person a better person or citizen? 

Rote compulsory custom with no sincerity behind it is meaningless and a bigger insult in my mind than someone deciding not to participate. Trying to force someone to participate against their will is unAmerican.

Rote compulsory custom with no sincerity behind it is meaningless

Might want to check on that statement for consistency in your discussions on religion. 

Might also want to check it as being true that development of group cohesion involves rote compulsory custom in some forms, and would likely be helpful in building group cohesion as part of a larger enculturation process.  Of course, that is if you buy into basic psychology that is being taught.

Andrew:

If you don’t agree with the pledge that doesn’t make you unamerican, so don’t say it.

But if you fail to honor the ones that helped give you that right than maybe you are unamerican.

So which is it?

WHo said anything about forcing anyone to do anything?  How about teaching them and apparently many of you about honor and respect to generations gone by.  The flag dose not stand for anyone’s politics but for ideals and values that cannot be disputed by politics.  Man is faliable not a symbol.  Take out your political agendas and beliefs on the right people not a symbol that has nothing to do w/ politics.  Educate not hate.

Pledging your allegiance and showing a sign of respect are apples and oranges.  I say the Pledge but I choose to.  However, if I didn’t agree with it, I would still stand to show respect for the things the flag is supposed to represent.  I don’t agree that I should take my shoes off when entering my own home, but since my wife is Japanese and it is her custom I choose to honor her traditions by doing it.  I know this is a weird analagy.

Andrew, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.

Take out your political agendas and beliefs on the right people not a symbol that has nothing to do w/ politics.

I would argue that pressuring people to say a pledge in order to instill a sense of patriotism has everything to do with politics. This has nothing to do with the flag itself. One can respect what the flag represents—as I do—without submitting to forced displays of patriotism. Which is worse? Not expressing genuine reverence to the flag or doing so only because one feels pressured to?

Pledging your allegiance and showing a sign of respect are apples and oranges.

I say the Pledge but I choose to.  However, if I didn’t agree with it, I would still stand to show respect for the things the flag is supposed to represent.

Again I ask, which is it?

I think he’s trying to say that those who choose not to actually recite the pledge should at least stand and show some respect for what’s being said.

- the above is not an endorsement of any opinion of the subject, just an effort to clarify Andrew’s opinion.

When I was a kid before my balls dropped and when I still had a high voice, I used to go to the Saturday afternoon movies, sometimes.
I was a republican even then; I wouldn’t stand for ‘God Save the Queen’ let alone sing it.

How about teaching them and apparently many of you about honor and respect to generations gone by.

What? No picking and choosing? Just a blanket called honour and respect over the lot.
I dunno, Andrew.
In Oz we have a flag with the pommy flag up in the top left and it pisses me off big time cos symbolically it means we’re still Betty Battenburg’s children. Sometimes I stand for it and other times I don’t; it depends on how magnanimous I feel in the moment.

Before the 1970s we had what was called The White Australia Policy which wasn’t quite as overt as apartheid in SA but pretty close.
You sure wouldn’t have been marrying a Japanese lady, that’s for sure, just as you wouldn’t have 50 years ago in your own country.

Just on the ‘taking off shoes before entering the house’. I’d be totally comfortable doing that before entering your home because of your wife’s traditions/culture; my youngest brother’s house is also shoe free but not because of culture - I haven’t asked him why but I rarely visit him either.
The ritual annoys me; it’s like ducks on the wall and plastic flowers – it’s kitschy.
My mate has a relation like that too - he was asked to remove his shoes. He told his wife to call him when she was ready to go. He went to the pub.

So what was all that about?
Freedom - after all - isn’t that what ‘they fought for’?
If I want to stand, sing, respect or take my shoes off or not it’ll be my choice; it will not be imposed or I’ll walk … or sit if it’s more convenient.

Consi writes…

Might want to check on that statement for consistency in your discussions on religion.

I’m not at all sure what inconsistency you’re implying here, Consi. Care to elaborate?

Might also want to check it as being true that development of group cohesion involves rote compulsory custom in some forms, and would likely be helpful in building group cohesion as part of a larger enculturation process.  Of course, that is if you buy into basic psychology that is being taught.

Whether it’s helpful in forming group cohesion as part of a larger enculturation process is immaterial to the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled that you have the right not to participate if you do not wish to.

Andrew asks…

WHo said anything about forcing anyone to do anything?

You did.

How about teaching them and apparently many of you about honor and respect to generations gone by.

You’re making dubious assumptions about how much respect I or anyone else may have for previous generations based on very little information.

My point is you cannot force respect from people, it’s something that they have to be willing to give. All you do by trying to force it is at best an empty gesture and at worst promotes resentment.

Additionally the fact that some people do not participate in such rituals isn’t necessarily an indication of lack of respect on their part. In the case of this particular news item the child in question would be violating her religious beliefs by participating. It’s somewhat ironic to me that you feel she should disrespect her religious beliefs in order to show respect to a symbol that in part stands for her right to hold whatever religious beliefs she wants.

The flag dose not stand for anyone’s politics but for ideals and values that cannot be disputed by politics.  Man is faliable not a symbol.  Take out your political agendas and beliefs on the right people not a symbol that has nothing to do w/ politics.  Educate not hate.

Is it just me, or did anyone else read the above and think to themselves, “What??“

Pledging your allegiance and showing a sign of respect are apples and oranges.  I say the Pledge but I choose to.  However, if I didn’t agree with it, I would still stand to show respect for the things the flag is supposed to represent.  I don’t agree that I should take my shoes off when entering my own home, but since my wife is Japanese and it is her custom I choose to honor her traditions by doing it.  I know this is a weird analagy.

It’s a piss-poor analogy is what it is. In both cases you’re

choosing

to show respect where none is required. That’s your choice just as it should be this child’s choice not to honor them if she doesn’t wish to.

Plus, what LuckyJohn said.

Les: Is it just me, or did anyone else read the above and think to themselves, “What??”

It’s not just you.

Actually I used more words to come to the same conclusion after I translated what he said into legible English within my bony confines; in fact I thought I was being pedantically picky so I left it alone.

What I really, really meant to say was: No.

One day I too would like to use the word enculturation.

I don’t agree that I should take my shoes off when entering my own home, but since my wife is Japanese and it is her custom I choose to honor her traditions by doing it.  I know this is a weird analagy.

It is indeed a weird analogy.  Taking your shoes off when entering a home (which we do in Europe as well) is simply a practical way of keeping dirt down.  A better analogy would have been if you pledged allegiance to the Rising Sun flag of Japan.

While I’m an expatriate, I’m not an ex-patriot, and I am proud of some of what America stood for, and what many Americans still stand for.  However,  this pride can only come from experience, and cannot be instilled by rote recitation, or by standing at attention in front of a piece of colored cloth.

Given the state of the world, we’d be better off, imho, if we rather pledged allegiance to an Earth flag, not any national flag.