The kindest assessment you could make is that those kids were just fucked up in the head.  Millions of children have been mistreated by their peers and didn’t turn into killers.  It doesn’t excuse the mistreatment or jerk behavior by the jocks but there IS no excuse for going on a murder rampage. 

Words to live by… literally.

The kindest assessment you could make is that those kids were just fucked up in the head….there IS no excuse for going on a murder rampage.

Wow.  It defies my simpleton standards to believe that this even had to be said.

I couldn’t agree with you more.  What I was merely implying was that the action taken by the jocks and other peers at the school set off their behavior.  Were they fucked up?  Of course, it doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out.  But just because you’re fucked up in the head, doesn’t mean you’re going to go on a murderous rampage.  Would they have committed those crimes, had they been treated differently?  I guess there is no way to know for sure.

Webs, the jock quote you were referring to can be found in the last paragraph of page 50 in a Time Magazine article titled The Columbine Tapes, which appeared in the December 20, 1999 issue.

Let’s take a look at the complete quote from one of Columbine’s shining stars:

“Evan Todd, the 255-lb. defensive lineman who was wounded in the library, describes the climate this way: ‘Columbine is a clean, good place except for those rejects,‘ Todd says of Klebold and Harris and their friends.  ‘Most kids didn’t want them there.  They were into witchcraft.  They were into voodoo dolls.  Sure, we teased them.  But what do you expect with kids who come to school with weird hairdos and horns on their hats?  It’s not just the jocks; the whole school’s disgusted with them.  They’re a bunch of homos. grabbing each other’s private parts.  If you want to get rid of someone, usually you tease ‘em.  So the whole school would call them homos, and when they did something sick, we’d tell them, ‘You’re sick and that’s wrong.‘‘“

Evan Todd is now presenting himself as some sort of hero.  What a sensitive and caring individual.

Weapon of Mass Disturbance, you rock!!!  Thanks for the whole quote, it really sends the message home harder than what I said.

I read that report a while back.

I’m no angel, I’ve been down that path and planned it down to which one of my friends I was going to use as a human shield when the shooting started, provided I could incapacitate or restrain them proper.

It can’t be attributed to a single cause, any of it. Using “fucked in the head” can’t be an acceptable form of dismissal either - I was straight and narrow for my first couple years in school. I didn’t just “become” headfucked. By the time I was at the end of fifth grade, I had an abusive stepfather who was threatening to kill me, a mother who was in denial, no friends, and of course, everyone teased me because they thought that would make me “go away”. The whole damn mess stinks of intolerance on either side… and when you’re a kid, it’s easy to form simple black and white views of things such as “right” and “wrong”. I find it far more alarming that the kids needed to strike out at something they percieved as a threat to their welfare.

My school was a fair bit like columbine.. but we didn’t let felons or anyone of particularly unsavory character in our school to begin with. It would have been political disaster unless it was kept quiet, lock-and-seal. Columbine’s admin didn’t seem to care.

The problem at columbine is that you can’t point at any one thing (or indeed any three or four things) and say “That’s what did it.“  because everytime you do, there’s someone out there that says “Well, those things happen at my school/to me/to a friend of mine and we didn’t have kids with guns killing people here.“  And they’re probably right.

Kids like Evan are a dime a dozen.  They were in my school.  They’re probably in every school across the country, and probably so were most of the other things everyone says influenced those kids to do what they did, yet we don’t have mass shootings all across the country.  What stands out as the big thing missing from Columbine, and what ultimately caused the shootings (in as much as any one thing can cause something like that) was simply the awareness of the parents and administration about what was going on at their school.  Nothing fuels potential violence in kids (and adults) like reinforcing the perception that no one gives a damn about you.

The tragedy of Columbine is not that it’s an indication we are becoming a violent society.  What happens at a highschool rarely has anything to do with real life.  It’s that with very little effort, it probably could have been avoided.

Webbs: ... those that were treated poorly, including myself knew the truth, which was scary, and those that were treating people poorly, thought the kids were just fucked up in the head.

We used to have a beach shack at Sisters Beach whilst I was at school in the 60s - probably 100 Summer residents - no electricity or TV.
There was a gang of us - I was always on the outer.
One day (I was 14 or 15) ‘it’ was arranged that we do some boxing - we paired up - I didn’t want to play - they pushed - I lost it and had one of the blokes on his back with my hands round his throat - three blokes pulled me off. Bob survived. He’s a psychologist in WA now.
I never had any more trouble. I was/am a crazy fucker.
I was/am a pacifist ... till pushed.
At school, I took it from ‘Moose’ and his hangers on, for what seemed like a coupla years.
They couldn’ta pushed me too hard or I woulda flipped into psychopath mode.
I was an arrogant, swimming champion for 5 years running, prick and a loner in my own aloof arsehole crazy-fucker way. I hung around in my own clique (by myself) except for chicks ... I loved them and ... ha ha Miss Denehy - my art teacher. Memories ...
Some months after I left school at 18, I went to a party, gotta bit pissed (drunk), got in my car to leave and Moose was in front of the car - I gunned it, he jumped and I missed the bastard.
In retrospect, I’m glad I missed.
Also in retrospect, I think my madness saved me a lot of grief from bullying.
There are NO consequences within madness.
Mmm. Will I post this? Yeah - fuck it!

It is an almost universal tendency to think of cause and effect in linear terms.  In reality, cause and effect is probabilistic.  And I have a familiar example:

It is common to be told that if you drink and drive, you’ll crash into something, possibly killing or injuring people in the process.  I know from experience that this isn’t even remotely true.  Between graduating high school in 1978 and enlisting in the army 6 years later, I operated a motor vehicle while intoxicated beyond the legal limit at least 1200 times.  And I never crashed into anything.  And all of my drunken buddies did the same thing.  I don’t make this statement as a defense of drunk driving.  It is merely a demonstration of the mathematics involved in cause and effect.  Several million Americans get drunk and then drive their cars every day.  A tiny percentage of them crash into something and the resulting carnage is rightfully blamed on alcohol.

Alcohol doesn’t make you crash.  It simply increases the probability that you will.  It is illegal because our legislature considers that increase in probability to be unacceptable to public safety and the argument I made above regarding my personal experiences with drunk driving do, and should fall on deaf ears.  The same mathematical relationship exists between childhood cruelty and the tendency to become a serial killer, school shooter, arsonist, or other antisocial character.  Swordsbane is technically correct when he points out that bullies are everywhere yet mass murder is relatively unusual.

The problem of drunk driving began to be taken seriously when insurance companies and lawmakers made the connection between drunk driving and the resulting damage caused by a tiny percentage of its practitioners.  The problem of childhood cruelty will follow a similar path.  When enough people fear the lethal behavior of a tiny percentage of its victims, or when enough people who really matter begin to lose lots of money, then you’ll see our laws and our culture become very intolerant of child abuse at home and bullying by peers.

In my weblog, I make the argument that domestic terrorism may actually be necessary in order to stimulate much needed changes in the way our society handles its problems.  Those who fear change find that a bit disturbing.

In my weblog, I make the argument that domestic terrorism may actually be necessary in order to stimulate much needed changes in the way our society handles its problems.  Those who fear change find that a bit disturbing.

I don’t find that disturbing.  I find it completely whacked to say it outloud.  It’s not that I think you’re wrong, but technically condoning something is asking for it’s frequency to skyrocket.  After all, the herd mentality will tell you 9 out of 10 times that if a little of something is okay, then a lot must be fine too.  They’re wrong, but that doesn’t stop them.  Terrorism is impossible to stamp out completely, because there will always be whacko’s dissatisfied with the powers that be, and whether necessary or not, it is a really really really BAD IDEA to hint at all that it might possibly be acceptable under certain circumstances.  In the meantime, we have to make every effort to fight it, and that means trying NOT to give anyone a reason to think it is actually HELPING society.  They already have plenty of twisted reasons.  Let’s not give them a rational one, and if by some miracle we DO stamp it out, if we’ve gotten society THAT stable, I’m sure we can come up with something that works as good and isn’t so hard on buildings and people.

In my weblog, I make the argument that domestic terrorism may actually be necessary in order to stimulate much needed changes in the way our society handles its problems. Those who fear change find that a bit disturbing.

Terrorism is impossible to stamp out completely, because there will always be whacko’s dissatisfied with the powers that be, and whether necessary or not, it is a really really really BAD IDEA to hint at all that it might possibly be acceptable under certain circumstances.  In the meantime, we have to make every effort to fight it, and that means trying NOT to give anyone a reason to think it is actually HELPING society.

Swordsbane, I think that means we’re already across his hypothetical line. The matter becomes, as always, how to predict, restrict, and control such circumstances.

Fighting situations like this is sort of like fighting cancer . However, much as I prefer to leave humanity to their own devices (or secretly harbor some distaste for us, even), I have to agree - it’s a rather pointless thing to NOT fight. We don’t gain anything by not fighting it except having more reason to fight it.

I think you both missed the point.

Our society’s child rearing institutions, particularly family and the public school system have the better part of 20 years to turn infant members of an aggressive, predatory species into that most artificial of products: civilized, young adults.  If I can convince your teenaged or young adult offspring to seriously consider terrorism as a solution to their problems just by writing a book or a website, then what does that say about the role modeling of you and your community?

I’m not trying to train new terrorists.  I’m simply using those who already exist in order to accomplish my real objective.  As stated in my weblog, I want my critics to loudly complain that I’m encouraging terrorism, then I want them to explain why I have such powers and why it’s so easy.

I’d really like some loud-mouthed public figure to complain to the media about what I’m doing and then have to explain why I’m able to do it.

I tried to coax Frank DeAngelis into the jaws of my trap but he wouldn’t bite.

i found this site and resonated with the topic of the commercial.. interestingly enough they just played the commercial and for some reason at the end instead of saying “restore your manhood” it simply said “ restore the balance”. anyone know what balance they are talking about? oh they must be talking about the attributes of the male and female energies created by the polarity of the sushumna, hey thats great that they are opening up to other things. i have a great idea for the smart car commercial when it comes out in 2 yrs. lets have a really big guy in the small smart car get bumped by a really small guy in a hummer and have the guy in the smart car drag the guy in the hummer into the street, break his collar bones and put his car into drive toward oncoming traffic. and in the end you can see the hummer driver handcuffed to the hospital bed with lawyers all around him yelling. and it can simply say “ smart car”. yea i like that. oh and as the smart car drives away you see the bumper stick on the back that says “draft suv drivers”.  ok im done. night.

One more thing.. Off topic on the topic of soy and tofu, plants produce chemicals that mimic estrogen and or block estrogen, andor block progesterone. The body of a human has receptors to both estrogen and progesterone. These receptors will respond not only to the body’s hormones, but also plant hormones. In general, phytoestrogens are thought to wash out of the body within several days in contrast to months or decades that the synthetic chemical xenoestrogens take to be excreted. Whole grains, fruits, seeds, beans and herbs all are know to have estrogen and/or progesterone activity. The most famous is soy. In general, any food that has been eaten by a culture or people group for centuries is probably all right to eat if the people group in question is relatively free from these estrogen related diseases.“ http://www.fibrocystic.com/phyto.htm

Soybeans contain plant forms of estrogen called phytoestrogens (the chemical name is isoflavones). Phytoestrogens have very weak estrogen-like activity but can also act like antiestrogens, reducing the effects of naturally-produced estrogen. This is one reason that soy might possibly be protective against the development of some types of breast cancer which are stimulated by estrogen.
All you really have to do is look at general studies done on cultures, you will see cultures like Japan and east Asian areas which include more soy in daily dieting have little to no cases of cancer as western cultures do. Either way its a conscious step towards people being more like Li Ching-Yuen.
Though I’d Share.

http://www.wvclinic.com/news_events/newsletter_winter03.asp

There was an ad in yesterday Chicago Tribune for the Hummer that described the H3 as “mid-sized” 

Mid-sized?  Between what?  An SUV and a Semi?

it’s an ad. please get over it. it’s not trying to win over people who wouldn’t even consider a Hummer in the first place. if you don’t like it, then obviously they’re not trying to talk to or sell to you. nor is it trying to change the world. all it’s trying to do is maintain, and if possible, increase the brand’s profile. and maybe poke a little fun amongst its target audience. take the recent Burger King ads for the Texas Double Whopper or Stacker sandwiches–-these all play to their intended audience: the guy who’ll let go and give in from time to time to his “manlyâ€? cravings. these are among the most polarizing media messages in recent memory. just remember, they’re just selling their products. it’s your choice whether to buy into ‘em or not.

don’t agree with a company’s philosophies or marketing communications? then don’t support them. i can tell you, though, as someone who works in the ad industry, the fact that this got your attention, even though it provoked a negative reaction, can already be construed as success for the ad. take in these ads with a grain of salt. they can’t manipulate or change you if you don’t let them.

i leave you with this message from another car company and garrison keillor:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VwRCBHhyrAA&search=thwack

Thanks for the link Pro Sellout, I liked that video very much.  I leave you with this, a comment from above:

Now if GM was clever in how they poke fun at healthy eaters, I would probably just laugh and shrug my shoulders.  But there was nothing clever or funny about the commercial.  It is just a blanket statement.

Webs: But there was nothing clever or funny about the commercial.

I’ll bet the rednecks saw something funny in it though.
I don’t like ads ... what I really mean is that I dislike boringly bland and unimaginative ads.
PS’s Honda ad was colourful and almost passive.
It interested me enough to watch it a second time.
A psychologist could really make something of those four sentences.

All I have to say is, guys who drive Hummers are NOT sexy for this girl. I’d fuck a tofu-eating hybrid-driver over a “macho” man any time of day, thank you very much. 

Holy shit Sadie, does this mean I have a chance.

You hippie girls are so easy.

Hey what’s the big deal, I don’t drive a hummer and I’M easy.
I guess I don’t drive them, I just give them

If it wasn’t for Aaaaaaaaanold buying the first model off the assembly line, it probably would have tanked.

I guess I don’t drive them, I just give them

Try ‘em with some crushed ice.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Les:You hippie girls are so easy.

Well, that’s what they say about us Earth girls. 

Elwed: Try ‘em with some crushed ice.

I’ve heard that hot tea works wonders as well.