Wow.. I didn’t know that about the Boy Scouts. That’s messed up. I do admire that they show such respect and tolerance for other beliefs, “such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam or Hinduism � or a more amorphous faith in some presence greater than ourselves”.  Why, then, is it not tolerated to say “I have thoughtfully considered the options, benefits, and evidence, and I proclaim myself to not believe in a higher power” ?? Any scouts out there who can answer this one?

I am similarly troubled by the Boy Scouts’ policies. Both of my little brothers are eagle Scouts, and I’m proud of them and all, but all of scouting’s baggage saps the fun out of it for me.

Oh but don’t you understand?  Their beliefs are the 21st century!  They want us all to believe what *they* believe.  Not free thinking, smart individuals - but more like brainwashed thinking that a ‘supreme being’ exists.  That’s how they get ‘em young - don’tcha see?

this is just another reason why i don’t support or let my boys join either.

Boy Scouts are fags. They are just tryin to copy Civil Air Patrol now since C.A.Ps playin a major roll in home land security and they are not. They dont represent the America with that 3 finger salute. They dont even know why we salute. How can they be on color gaurd when they cant even march and they dont even have a full uniform.  O , and Civil Air Patrol lets in girls, gays, and atheist. Girls dont have to go to a seperate Cap organization and plus thers no public display of affection. And Civil Air Patrol is the Air Force Auxilary and what are boy scouts?

Hmmm. Considering their bad on homosexuals joining I’d have to say that Boy Scouts aren’t fags. I’m not certain I follow your comparison between the Boy Scouts and the Civil Air Patrol.

As an organization I feel there’s a lot to like about the Boy Scouts, they just have a fatal flaw when it comes to their policies against gays and atheists. I would love to be able to support them with a clear conscious, but that flaw keeps me from doing so. Overall I think they provide a good experience for the boys who participate in much the same way I believe the Girl Scouts do. The difference is that I can still support the Girl Scouts because they don’t exclude girls from joining for being gay or atheist.

I don’t think the Boy Scouts are trying to be anything like C.A.P. so comparisons between the two really don’t mean much.

No i disagree the boy scouts are fags they dont do anything inportant there salutes uniform what they do dont mean anything and plus there all gay.
Like if the military absolutly need someone for homedefense guess who gets call the civil air patrol hooya. and we offer alot more. if you want a challenge join it dosent caust that much and its worth it want you see all the things you can do.(http://www.capnhq.gov) its a lot better and the adults can do there part in it to and kids can pursuew a career in the military and if you pass a award for 2nd lt you will go in the military at a higher rank. Can you do that with the Boy Scouts? No and We let both girls boys in we dont have boys civil air patrol or girls civil air patrol its just Civil Air patrol. Long live the Civil Air Patrol

Ross—yep, if a Boy Scout makes it to Eagle or a Girl Scout makes it to Gold - they can come into the military at a higher rank (and make more money).  It’s the same as the CAP.

Yeah, there’s a separate Boy and Girl Scouting organization but there’s also Venturing...which is a program for BOTH teenaged boys and girls.  And guess who runs it??  Yep.  The BSA!

And...there’s a separate outside corporation offering young people the chance to explore careers and interest areas...it’s called “Learning for Life/Exploring” and it is an offshoot of the BSA’s popular Exploring program.

And finally, the BSA doesn’t MAKE you “believe in God” however you see Him or Her...the BSA DOES demand you believe in “something greater or higher than yourself.”

I explain all of this on a page at my website.  Take a look, read and try to understand that it’s NOT some stupid archaic rule done by old grizzed men...it’s there for a reason.

http://members.aol.com/coffeeweb/books/reverant.htm

and also a Readers’ Digest summary of what I feel is on

http://members.aol.com/coffeeweb/LO/faq8.htm

Settummanque!

I’m sure the Boy Scouts have what they consider to be a valid reason for their requirement of belief in a higher power, but that doesn’t change the fact that it still amounts to discrimination against those who don’t have that belief. They are, in effect, saying that you can not be a good and moral person without holding a superstition in a fairy tale and I know for a fact that isn’t true.

As long as the Boy Scouts continue to discriminate against atheists and homosexuals I will continue to discriminate against supporting them in any way and I will encourage others not to support them as well. The Girl Scouts have managed to change with the times and be all inclusive. I see no reason the Boy Scouts can’t do the same.

Discrimination is an interesting term to use in connection with the BSA.  No one is forced to join, nor is it a mandatory part of a young man’s life - it is a group with a well defined set of beliefs that a person can come to terms with before they join.  Parents and boys should understand that they are joining a group that believes in God.  Maybe atheists should get together and start a group that specifically holds no reverence for anything above themselves.  They can celebrate the random acts of chemistry and evolution that turned elements into compounds into life forms. 

I have heard religious beliefs espoused at BSA meetings, in coffeeshops, at work and on the street.  I have also heard gay-rights, pro-environment, libertarian, vegetarian and atheist beliefs promoted.  Isn’t that the point of interest groups - promote a belief and try to convince others of your position? 

If you loath BSA policies, create something else and see how it goes.

Discrimination is an interesting term to use in connection with the BSA.

If not discrimination then what would you call it?

No one is forced to join, nor is it a mandatory part of a young man’s life - it is a group with a well defined set of beliefs that a person can come to terms with before they join.

All well and true, but that doesn’t change the fact that the BSA does discriminate against gays and atheists. If you are gay or atheist you will not be allowed to join regardless of whether you’ve come to terms with the beliefs of the BSA.

Parents and boys should understand that they are joining a group that believes in God.

And your point is...?

Maybe atheists should get together and start a group that specifically holds no reverence for anything above themselves.  They can celebrate the random acts of chemistry and evolution that turned elements into compounds into life forms.

As clueless about Evolution as you are discrimination I see.

Should atheists start an alternative group to the BSA? They already have. It’s called Camp Quest and was founded in 1996 in Kentucky. Branches have sprung up in Michigan, Minnesota, Tennessee, and Ontario. 

Additionally there are several organizations already out there that aren’t discriminatory and are more deserving of people’s support. Groups like Camp Fire USA, the 4-H Clubs, and Spiral Scouts (started by Wiccans, but open to all beliefs) to name just a few.

In fact, the BSA is one of the few nationally recognized youth groups that has discriminatory policies.

I have heard religious beliefs espoused at BSA meetings, in coffeeshops, at work and on the street.  I have also heard gay-rights, pro-environment, libertarian, vegetarian and atheist beliefs promoted.  Isn’t that the point of interest groups - promote a belief and try to convince others of your position?

I’m sorry, I didn’t realize the Boy Scouts were supposed to be an interest group. I was under the impression they were a youth group. According to the BSA themselves they don’t try to promote a particular religious viewpoint. They simply require an acknowledgment of a Supreme Being of some sort in order to be a member. So it sounds like they’re not actively trying to convince anyone of their position.

If you loath BSA policies, create something else and see how it goes.

I don’t loath their policies, I just disagree with a couple of them. I think it’s a shame that the experience the BSA offers isn’t open and available to all boys regardless of religious or sexual orientation as I think it’s otherwise a very good program. As a result I refuse to support the organization by providing funding and I will continue to speak out against them for their discriminatory practices.

Nothing you’ve said here in any way rebuts what my entry was all about. What, exactly, was your point? Assuming you had one.

I was never interested in organizations like the Boy Scouts, if for no other reason that knowing that the German armed forces would take care of that kind of recreational need.

My problem with the BSA is not that they are discriminatory with regards to their membership. It’s their prerogative, whether I agree with them or not. More interesting is whether or not they are allowed use of public facilities, perhaps in preference to non-discriminatory organizations.

Indeed. I’ve not said that the BSA can’t be discriminatory if they so choose to be, but at the same time they shouldn’t complain about being discriminated against as a result of their policies. Something that they have done.

I like your turn of phrase better. It all boils down to folks asserting authority, but rejecting the resulting responsibilities.

I have been a part of the BSA for as long as I can remember and, yes the BSA does not allow gay, atheist, youth females in their scout “troops”. I listed troops like that because BSA offers lots of programs for youth and some allow girls, but not the troops. Why does BSA not allow the previous? Because the Boy Scouts of America has and always will be a private organization. It is not open to the public. It is open by membership only, and it is also run by people who keep to the original ideas and goals of the founder of the organization and it has remained unchanged since its founding. The Boy Scouts is also one of the oldest private organizations. Most former Presidents and Astronauts were Boy Scouts and are the men they are today because of it. Look people you all are entitled to your views and opinions. That’s what makes America great, but don’t bash the Boy Scouts because of it. If you don’t like it, then don’t join or support. But don’t go on the war path. Discrimination is when a person or a group of persons downs some one or some thing, not what the Boy Scouts do. The KKK does not like most religious groups or minorities (i.e. black’s) ....why? Just because they are! That is discrimination. The Boy Scouts simply have membership requirements for their private organization, because of that, some people will not be able to join. But the Boy Scouts are not downing on any other beliefs, lifestyles or political views. They just don’t promote them. This is the same as many of you would not want me, a white heterosexual male, to join a homosexual atheist club or other wise. I can not be in you club because I don’t share your views or thoughts, but you don’t wish ill will on me because of my views. But, to each his/her own. But don’t bash a group because of its views or censorship and yes the Boy Scouts have censorship! But not discrimination! Don’t hate what you don’t know. And as for the news article sited, I have never heard of that, and to me sounds like some one has veered left wing of true scouting.

The Boy Scouts simply have membership requirements for their private organization, because of that, some people will not be able to join. But the Boy Scouts are not downing on any other beliefs, lifestyles or political views. They just don’t promote them. This is the same as many of you would not want me, a white heterosexual male, to join a homosexual atheist club or other wise. I can not be in you club because I don’t share your views or thoughts, but you don’t wish ill will on me because of my views. But, to each his/her own. But don’t bash a group because of its views or censorship and yes the Boy Scouts have censorship! But not discrimination! Don’t hate what you don’t know.

Where do I sign up for one of those homosexual atheist clubs, anyway? lol.

You know, I probably would know a lot more about the BSA if I had been allowed to continue in the program. Unfortunately, I wasn’t welcome anymore because I wouldn’t say the Lord’s Prayer at their meetings when I was a kid...(something they didn’t advertise when we signed up). The fact that they strongarmed me into doing it a couple times before I got the boot still makes me feel ill.

Let’s have a look at what kind of a kid Ryan was when he was 9 years old:

-Interested in the outdoors and fond of camping. Check.
-Quite bored on the family farm, looking for something new and challenging to partake in that isn’t as expensive as hockey. Check.
-Young parents willing to help out in all actities. Check.
-Friends with all the other kids in the group (Half my class was in the local BSA.) Check.

BSA is whack. Jared, much of what you write is valid, I guess. But what BSA must recognize (and eventually they will, trust me) is that they suffer for their policies. The policy is arbitrary and guarantees no benefit for the organization.

I realize that there is a mindset BSA is trying to cultivate as they groom future leaders in the program. But it’s going to be 2000 and frigging 6 in a couple weeks. There is no excuse for discrimination (yes, that includes rejection of membership) based on matters of faith anymore. And the reality is the BSA isn’t doing its members (the kids) any favours by pursuing a policy of exclusion. They don’t teach that in school, do they? ...well unless you go to a religious school, I guess…

I agree with Les that there are other alternatives (Co-operatives, 4H’s, etc.) that parents should seek out when the local BSA leadership sucks <--and I think that’s 90% of the problem, right there. It’s unfortunate because my friends sure sounded like they had a good time at Scouts. Too bad I couldn’t join them. I guess I might have poisoned the water.

Finding a co-ed summer camp without some weird agenda is also exceedingly difficult. What ever happened to just teaching kids how to swim and sing campfire songs?

And to add to this:

The BSA’s membership policies are discriminatory and there are no if’s or but’s about it. However, they are indeed a private organization and free to discriminate any old way they want to. They are also free to suffer the consequences. And anybody who cares to is free to call a spade a spade.

Jared writes…

Look people you all are entitled to your views and opinions. That’s what makes America great, but don’t bash the Boy Scouts because of it.

“Bashing” is when you criticize something without providing any reasons for that criticism. I haven’t engaged in bashing of the Boy Scouts here as I’ve listed my reasons for not supporting the organization. I’ve said before that they have every right to discriminate if they want to, but as long as they do I have every right to criticize them for it and encourage others not to support them.

The real problem with the BSA is not discrimination.  As a private organization, they have a right to exclude people for whatever reason, be it a belief in an imaginary friend, who people sleep with or whatever.

However, they are hypocrites.  That’s the real issue and why they will never have my support.

The BSA asks for and receives millions of dollars in government aid each year.  Some examples:

$6 million and $8 million respectively for their jamborees in 1997 and 2001, which are hosted on United States military bases, places we all pay for with out taxes.  These places are provided to the BSA, and often ONLY to the BSA not other groups, at no cost or very little cost.  Certainly not enough to pay the bills they incur.

Millions of dollars in aid from cities across America by providing public facilities to the Scouts, often at no charge or at a lower charge than other groups must pay.  In some places, the BSA employees are paid by the local government so they get government benefits and retirements.  In another case, a city gave the scouts a lease for a facility at no cost, and with no competitive process so other groups could also bid for the facility.  That’s your tax dollars at work folks.

IRS tax exempt status.  Each year the BSA gets away with taking in millions of dollars and not paying taxes on any of it because they are a non-profit group.  Another form of government sponsorship.

The Boy Scouts of America is a religious organization, by their own admission in a legal brief they filed in a lawsuit in 1998.  As such, any government support of their programs crosses the line between separation of church and state and is impermissible under the law.

The Boy Scouts, as a private organization, have a right to discriminate against anyone and any group for any reason they wish.  The Boy Scouts, as a religious organization, have a right to pursue their religious goals and teach their religious message to any boys who join them.

As a discriminatory and religious organization, however, they do not have the right to get government aid to support and further their discriminatory and religious goals.  Indeed, the government has a positive obligation not to get involved in such matters because the government exists for all citizens and should never send the message that such discriminatory policies or religious goals are favored.

So, my problem with the scouts isn’t that they discriminate; it’s that they cry from the rooftops about how they can discriminate because they are a “private organization�? all they while they have their hand in the public kitty to the tune of millions.

When the Scouts no longer receive one red cent from any government agency and begin to pay taxes like everyone else, I will defend their right to associate with whomever they choose.  Until then, as long as they take my tax dollars, they had better let in my gay and atheist brothers, and in fact, welcome them with open arms.

Good one James.

comments

comments

I’ll liberally interprete this as a bump and take the opportunity to address this:

IRS tax exempt status.  Each year the BSA gets away with taking in millions of dollars and not paying taxes on any of it because they are a non-profit group.  Another form of government sponsorship.

The Boy Scouts of America is a religious organization, by their own admission in a legal brief they filed in a lawsuit in 1998.  As such, any government support of their programs crosses the line between separation of church and state and is impermissible under the law.

If you are attempting to assert that allowance of non-profit status equals government sponsership and thereby violates the First Amendment, I suggest you review case law on First Amendment law.  It would be helpful before making such sweepingly inaccurate pronouncements about what the law is.  If, however, you want to let us know that this is just your humble opinion, which is what it appears to be, then you should properly preface the statements with “In my humble opinion.”

Indeed, the government has a positive obligation not to get involved in such matters because the government exists for all citizens and should never send the message that such discriminatory policies or religious goals are favored.

A review of civil codes, criminal codes and tax laws reveals that the government discriminates all the time in numerous and countless ways with respect to the civil code, criminal code, and tax policy against different classes of citizens depending upon behavior that it wants to encourage. 

Forthwith, I do hereby dub thee with the Indian name: “He who hath inserted his his foot into his mouth.” I know.  Long Indian name, but it is befitting.  Just calling a spade a spade.

In paragraph 2, line 1, “sponsership” should read as “sponsorship” in the above post.

“One must be careful to criticize when one knows little”

“Don’t criticize another unless you have walked for miles in their shoes”

“Don’t make comments about things you know nothing about”

Okay, all of this babble about the Boy Scouts is ridiculous.  First of all, I have to point out that people who usually make comments about, attack, or denounce the Boy Scouts know little about the organization, have a “chip” or “grudge” on their shoulder, or mostly just listen to other people who know nothing. 

The requirement, as stated above, to declare “something”, “anything”, “just fill in the blank kid”, “we’ve made this as open as possible”, as a higher power is about as easy as it gets. The Scouts were pretty much asking this kid to state something.  He could of said his mom, his dad, he could of said any organization name. 

BUT, the point is clear, if the kid had no beleif in a higher object or being, He pretty much said that he beleives in nothing higher than himself.  He beleives only in himself, meaning he doesn’t beleive in others.  He is selfish.  He can’t not even say that he beleives in teamwork.  He can’t say he beleives in the organization (which if he is a part of) is better than himself.  He is saying that he and another individual is not better or higher than himself. 

The point --- if you can’t even beleive in the organziation, then WHY, WHY????, even be a part of it. 

You others with comments on this board, all sound so bitter, like a kid “my mommy didn’t give me any candy, so poo poo on everybody”

The Boy Scouts have been around longer than the Civil Air Patrol, the Air Force, Taxes, etc. 

Before you make comments about them, learn their history, learn about Baden Powell the founder. 

By the way, the Girl Scouts are a part of the Boy Scouts of America, and they have exactly the same beliefs.  So, comments like “the girl scouts have evolved and not the Boy Scouts” are completely offbase, un-educated, and unfounded. 

“Oh, I support girl scouts, but, No I don’t support “THOSE” Boy Scouts” ---- A quote like this is discrimination at its finest. 

You might as well change the words to

“Oh, I support purple people, but, No I don’t support “THOSE” pink poka dotted people. 

By the way, the Scouts don’t recieve “GOVERNMENT” money, all of their money is donated to them from private individuals.  Once again, seek knowledge before you comment (see above, JamesG5223)

Reading on I see more Bitterness, “They din’t let me play in their game”.  When a kid isn’t allowed to play in the local pickup football game, Does he just say “oh well, darn, I can’t ever play football”??  No, No, most kids go and find another game to play in down the street, or start your own game. 

Granted Scouting occurs at young ages, so if for some reason there is an “issue” like the example given above about the Lord’s prayer, it is the parents responsibility to communicate with their own children to see what is bothering them in their lives.  If a parent were truly involved in these issues, they would have been resolved with the leadership of that group within Scouts.  For instance, if saying the Lord’s prayer truly was an issue, then maybe that particular scout troop was chartered by a devout church that required their members to recite that particular prayer, (I don’t think this was the case), but if true, then the parents working with leaders could have found a troop where the scout was not “required” to recite the Lord’s prayer.  For example, a troop chartered by a Veteran’s group, or a school, or a car dealership for that matter. 

There are always solutions, it is really whether or not the educated approach was taken.  Unfortunately, everyone doesn’t have involved parents, or involved role models, but that doesn’t mean that people who didn’t have everything go their way as kids or adults should try to “Punish” the one’s that did.

Read Jared’s response.

So, Get over those issues, Get over your own “issues”. 

People, Get open minded, and Darn it, LEAVE THE BOY SCOUTS ALONE

Good one Sage.