I need to post, I just had time to read, but I have to go to work, I will post later. Y’all have a good evening.

Hey grey!
How about some gratitude towars the “frogs”?
After all is was the “frogs” who bankrolled the american war of indepence.Without the “frogs”
you’d probaly still be a british colony.

“frogs!” What is that?
How old are you?...14
You’ve just proved that you know nothing About foreign politics or even history.

Being Canadian I think I’ve tasted a bit of the retarded intolerance of some retarded americans and also the administration in place.

Guess why so many of the classic allies have not participated in the war in Iraq. The same reason half of your country thought it was a bad idea.

And guess why some countries helped....

If the United States ever falls under attack from some other country, Watch all the allies come and help at the drop of a dime.

Deals and rules have been made in the past to actually bring a sense of international democracy in case of conflict or to avoid large scale conflict.

Guess which country does not follow these rules.

MOre to come later...gotta eat!

Daryl, I have one question only - have you or have not lived in a foreign country, immersed with the local population? Please limit yourself to a Yes or No answer.

First things first: that question is a logical fallacy: appeal to authority. You do not have to live in a country to have an opinion about it’s culture, and you certainly don’t have to live in a country to make an argument based on readily verifiable facts.

I’m not Daryl, but unlike Daryl I actually am a right-winger and I did vote for Bush. I am also one of those born-again evangelical Christians we keep hearing about.

I would like to answer your question, but I won’t answer it just yet. I think merely asking the question is a good insight into the mind of the liberal elite. The unspoken assumption in that question is that Bush supporters are a bunch of ignorant, provincial rednecks. If they had more learning’ and did some more travellin’ they would be able to break out of their narrow mindset and would acquire a more civilized European-influenced worldview. N’est pa?

Now I would like to answer your question, and the answer is ‘yes’. My parents teach foriegn languages and they each speak 4 or 5. My first trip France was when I was two and I have been back many times since then, most recently when I was doing a family stay in Austria to work on my German in my college days.

Daryl himself has spent a good deal of time backpacking and travelling through Europe. I think he’s (nearly) bankrupted himself twice doing so.

Anyways, I was raised in a family of New England liberals who took me to France every summer but never to church. And I can see first hand with my siblings why Europe has a declining birth rate, and why Europe is in a long slow decline. Those provincial gun totin’ rednecks aren’t so dumb afterall.

sure, without the frogs we may still be a british coloney, but i doubt it.  even if we were, i don’t think you or i would care.  i like the brits.  i’m deeply grateful for their support in our present war.  they remember ww I and ww II and are honoring our nation’s friendship.

we showed the frogs our gratitude in two world wars.  i think we’ve paid them back in blood that FAR exceeds the value of the money they gave us several times over.  they owe us some fucking gratitude.

First things first: that question is a logical fallacy: appeal to authority.

The purpose of my question is to establish factual background to Daryl’s position. Kindly leave it to me how I evaluate whatever information is forthcoming. Having said that, thank you for projecting.

yes, serge, i’m 14 if it suits your fancy.

You’ve just proved that you know nothing About foreign politics or even history

obviously.  i have a different opinion, so i must know nothing.

I am taking back what I wrote earlier. It was stupid and not very mature. I apologize.

Just to answer you Grey, I didn’t think you “knew nothing”. as a matter of fact I am sure you know more than me. i just thought It was obvious that France had approached the U.S. about la côte d’ivoire out of respect. Since France has been arguing about Iraq I think they are being extra careful. It’s kinda like asking permission. Any friend of America would do that.

France hasn’t been in the spotlight for some time now and I think they are enjoying their little corner of the stage. Everybody wants to be in the spotlight. Look at Great Britain and others.

That’s where the big deals are.

Putting even the most whacko right-winger from Christian Dominion in the same category as your run-of-the-mill Islamic Jihadist is completely outrageous.  I might not agree with a lot of the things Focus on the Family says, but I don’t see any of their sons and daughters blowing up school buses in Denver.  I’m pretty sure they don’t regard burning down synagogues as and beheading Atheists as “God’s Workâ€?.  Can you say the same about the butchers in Iraq?

Um, what about the fundies who bombed an abortion clinic? 
This google search provides plenty of examples.

Man, white people in general are crazy. I hate to throw stereotypes at you guys (even though I’m black) I think white people, regardless of their ethnic origins, are all crazy.

And this meaningless debate about neo nazi-conservative politics (this is mainly for all you democrips, rebloodicans, and independents i.e. ex-hippies), are all psychotic, delusional, paranoids all out to destroy everything on this planet that doesn’t resemble anything caucasian.

It’s in your natures. Deal with it!

That’s why I’m glad to be black (not proud but glad by definition terms), atheist, neutral (especially when it comes to politics), and cool as ice.

Peace.

Um, what the hell was that, Ben?  Are you drunk?

Yeah, so, on with my post:

But actually, it gets even worse: The people in these countries are also much older.  Median ages for females in these countries is in the 40-45 range, meaning the majority of women can no longer have children.  (The median for US women is 37 yrs)

That would be because of the baby boom.  European countries have restabilized their pop.s after ww2 and are now leveling off.  You do that when you don’t have wide open spaces.  Further, you treat culture like a living static thing, which it is not.  Culture, in other terms, behavior cannot die.  It does not become extinct.  And as Les said, even if you want to reword that into “European culture is becoming less practiced”, it’s still in no danger of being forgotten altogether.  European countries have a European majority that continue to act like Europeans. 

I will pick it up again, what the hell is with this frog thing?  Are you calling french people frogs?  I will admit to never having heard of that before and if that’s a slur, what’s next, towel-heads?  Can we please refrain from these cheapass remarks?

First things first: that question is a logical fallacy: appeal to authority. You do not have to live in a country to have an opinion about it’s culture, and you certainly don’t have to live in a country to make an argument based on readily verifiable facts.

The question was not whether or not you have an opinion.  The question is whether or not you UNDERSTAND their points of view.  Quite a different thing.  Understanding someone else’s POV influences your opinion, and IMO, understanding a foreigner’s opinion makes you more justified to comment on it.

Great, all the radical ideas are coming out to play.

Grey Wrote: if we don’t fight the enemy on their soil, they will fight us on ours.  forget the WMD, forget the oil.  we’re in iraq to give fundamentalist muslims a target that can fight back, and chooses so as their profession.

Do you really believe that combat would have broken in out in Kansas if we hadn’t invaded Iraq?  We’re fighting with insurgents in Iraq, not terrorists.  They have neither the means, manpower, nor desire to wage a large scale conflict with the US.  Hence the name ‘insurgency’.  The thought of the terrorists bringing the fight to America is the premise of fear that keeps this country polarized.

Grey wrote: you’ve gotta love how those fucking frogs deny us help with iraq because they are so righteous, then beg for u.s. aid in the ivory coast after they smoke 54 unarmed civillians and wound over 1000 others.

How soon we forget, the French were one of the first countries to offer troops for the coalition effort in Iraq.  They had even staged some 20K troops and budgeted accordingly.  All they asked is that the US have UN backing before taking preemptive action against a sovereign nation.  It was only after Bush failed to garner that backing and broke of subsequent UN talks in favor of a military strike that France backed away from the table.

France may not big on testosterone but they are predictable and generally play by the political rules laid out on the global game board.

Justin wrote: I’m not Daryl, but unlike Daryl I actually am a right-winger and I did vote for Bush. I am also one of those born-again evangelical Christians we keep hearing about.

I would like to answer your question, but I won’t answer it just yet.

You could have just written that last sentence I would have guessed you were an Evangelical Christian.

You do not have to live in a country to have an opinion about it’s culture, and you certainly don’t have to live in a country to make an argument based on readily verifiable facts.

No, you don’t need to live anywhere to have an opinion.  Everybody has one and most people can read books.  So while you’re statement is technically correct, living in a foreign country provides one with an insight that cannot be obtained through other means and to speculate about that would be merely proffering your opinion.

Serge wrote: I am taking back what I wrote earlier. It was stupid and not very mature. I apologize.

Your stock just went up in my book.

Putting even the most whacko right-winger from Christian Dominion in the same category as your run-of-the-mill Islamic Jihadist is completely outrageous.

Maybe in your mind.  A fundie, is a fundie, is a fundie, and throughout history to the present day they have done whatever it takes to further their message and silence the opposition...all in the name of one god or another.

And this meaningless debate about neo nazi-conservative politics (this is mainly for all you democrips, rebloodicans, and independents i.e. ex-hippies), are all psychotic, delusional, paranoids all out to destroy everything on this planet that doesn’t resemble anything caucasian.

Uh, yeah… How’d I get to be an ex-hippie without ever being hippie to begin with?

PS, why does everyone bitch about France not supporting the Iraq war?  Are they not allowed to have an opinion because we helped them in the past?

If a friend saved me from falling off the egde of the cliff, I would be grateful.  If that same friend later asked for my help in killing someone that may have threatened her, I would not help her.  I think I would be justified...just because she helped me once does not mean I am then required to commit acts of violence in her name.  Foreign policy should not be an old boys club.

And as Les said, even if you want to reword that into “European culture is becoming less practicedâ€?, it’s still in no danger of being forgotten altogether.  European countries have a European majority that continue to act like Europeans.

whoops, that was zilch, not Les.  Sorry.

Props to you guys for travelling.  It is fun.
As for the traveling issue, I am going to get really simplistic here.  I think there are 2 kinds of people who dont travel:

The first type stays at home because they cant afford to travel/they have families, etc.  They may well want to and be interested in the world, but it just isnt feasible to see it.

The second type stays at home because they hate the thought of having to deal with a culture not their own.  Even when these sorts of people travel, they never actually experience the culture, they only talk to other foreigners, and they eat McD’s for every meal.  I have had the misfortune of travelling with people like this.

Fine, people who dont travel can have an open mind.  But it doesnt mean that they will be able to understand another culture.  I believe it was Kant who never left his hometown, correct me if I’m wrong.  He had some awesome ideas, but they were still couched in his cultural context.  But for the second type, I dont think there’s any hope because they just want to live in a bubble and ignore the fact that there is a world out there.  Perhaps you, Justin, and Daryl are well-travelled and maybe you know a lot of French people.  That doesn’t really tell me about your understanding of French culture, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.  I’m not classifying you into either of these groups.

But I think most of the Americans who voted for Bush, the ridicu-fucking-iculous percent who believed that OBL had ties to Saddam to begin with and that we had evidence of WMDs in Iraq, the ones to whom we refer here, are type 2.

Those gun totin rednecks may be spewing babies out right and left, but that is not always a good thing.  Think about their quality of life.  Think about the population issue (sorry, had to mention, but lets not get into it here).  Think about urban sprawl and all the walmarts it spawns.  Growth is not an indicator of coolness.  If it were, India and China would be the pinnacles of civilization.

Sorry my posts are coming in bites but the internet sucks here and there is just so much in everyone’s posts!  Rock on!

A fundie, is a fundie, is a fundie, and throughout history to the present day they have done whatever it takes to further their message and silence the opposition...all in the name of one god or another.

If you want to equate a culture of honor killings, clitorectemys and the celebrated murdering of infidels (which includes athiests) with Christianity, that is your perogative. Just realize that, thread title notwithstanding, Americans are not stupid and the vast majority of Americans will not make that connection. All you are doing is driving them out of the Democratic party.

Um, clitoridectomies were performed in America as recently as the 1950s.
Scroll down to the section on America

Also, the crusades?  Witch burning?  Attacks on gays?  As I said earlier, bombing abortion clinics?  How is that not the attacking and killing of non-Christians?  The saints and Jesus are all very popular martyrs worshipped by many Christians. 

Extremism calls out the worst in people, whether its Christian extremism, Muslim ext., Jewish, Buddhist, or whatever.

If you want to equate a culture of honor killings, clitorectemys and the celebrated murdering of infidels (which includes athiests) with Christianity, that is your perogative.

No need for splitting hairs, all the things you’ve mentioned have been carried out by Christians, plus many other variations on the theme as Shana has pointed out.

So, I stand by my original statement.  Islamic Jihadists, Evangelical Christians, same animal, different wrapper.  Actually, according to my records, Evangelicals have a slight lead in bloodshed in the name of Christ than do the Jihads.  Congratulations.  Either way, extremists aren’t a good thing as you can clearly see when it’s coming from the other side.

AI continue to stand by my point: Americans are not stupid and a plurality of them are not going to be convinced that life in America is comparable to life under the Taliban. The Democrats are bound and determined to ignore the Christopher Hitchens article that Daryl linked to, and will instead drive more Democrats into the Republican party.

That’s how I ended out a Republican, it only happened a months ago. After hearing the umpteenth comparison between Bush and Hitler, I realized that I shared no common ground with the Democratic party anymore.

AI continue to stand by my point: Americans are not stupid and a plurality of them are not going to be convinced that life in America is comparable to life under the Taliban.

So, you’ve lost your soapbox and now you’re restating the tired “Americans aren’t stupid” bit?  I never said American life was comparable to life in Afghanistan under the Taliban, I supported the previous statement that a fundie is a fundie is a fundie.  Quite a different thing.  I did not ignore the Hitchens article, I disagreed with it.

And if that’s what drove you to be a republican, well that’s a pretty sorry reason to change.  I hope you had some more solid reasoning regarding the platform itself as opposed to the rants of a few followers.

Dude, I have a lot of free time this afternoon…

I’d love to have more free time to respond to everyone, and I think this discussion is important, but I gotta get the workshop ready for a concert, so this will be brief.

The position of the conservatives here seems to have boiled down to:  we’re fighting Muslims on their soil, so they won’t invade us and force us to live under Sharia law.  I think everyone here probably agrees that living with current American (Western Civilization in general) laws and culture, warts and all, is preferable to what the Taliban has to offer.  If it were really a simple case of a fight to the death, winner take all, I would be on the side of the West.  But this is not the case for anyone but the extremists.  As others here have pointed out, it’s extremism that leads to terror that is the problem.  And by attacking countries that have not attacked us, we are not fighting terror- we are creating the very conditions under which terror flourishes.  As my Turkish friend said, what is terror? When an Iraqi family loses its children to invaders, is that not terror for them?  Who will they turn to?  Fundamentalist Islam is having a field day there, in what had been an increasingly secularized country- our doing.  You will say, we deposed an evil dictator.  Sure- but how are the Iraqis better off now?  We certainly aren’t better off- we’re playing right into Bin Laden’s hands.  He doesn’t care how many Iraqis die- they are martyrs to fuel the flames of the jihad.  Why do you suppose he told Americans not to vote for Bush?  He’s a smart guy.  Bush is the best thing that could happen for his cause: the same fight to the death many conservatives seem to want.  Rallying against an enemy is a time-honored technique of tyrants to consolidate power, well understood by Bin Laden and Bush.  Lincoln said (if memory serves) “The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make a friend out of him”.  Now, I don’t think we are going to make friends out of Bin Laden and his followers.  But by making enemies out of all the Muslims who just want to live in peace, we are not making the world a better place for the Christians, or the Muslims, or anyone else.

And Daryl- how about responding to my answers to your précis on the collapse of European civilization, instead of just complaining that the “frogs” let us down?  As far as I know, frogs are amphibians, and they have enough on their plate, what with the disappearance of habitats worldwide, without having to help us in ill-considered wars.

Whoops- just reread the posts, and saw that it was Grey, not Daryl, who complained about the “frogs”.  My apologies.  Otherwise, all my points stand.

And rereading my last post, I realized that I could be seen as saying Bush was a tyrant as bad as Bin Laden.  I don’t believe that- Bush is at best a petty tyrant, Bin Laden a brilliant deranged opportunist.  All I wanted to say is that they both know something about consolidating power.

What zilch said.

I had hopes that this may turns into an interesting debate. Perhaps another time.

The one thing that bothers me about comparing Bush to Hitler is that it compares to sending a child to do a man’s job - and I don’t mean this in a sense flattering to Bush.

Shana and deadscot, thanks for continuing the debate and making such good points.  I don’t get to the computer for most of the day, and when I do, I’m having to type with one spitup-covered hand. 

And the prize for confirming every negative stereotype about right-wing Americans goes to Grey with his “fuck the frogs.” Smooth move, dude.  Tell me, does it make you feel all tingly and macho to talk like that?  Which other ethnic slurs do you use to prop up your ego?

Finally, there is a sure-fire way to tell when someone is feeling insecure—and that’s when he breaks down and calls you an elitist.  Works every time.

Gotta go, folks, I’ve got a 3-month-old dual national’s diaper to change.

So, you’ve lost your soapbox and now you’re restating the tired “Americans aren’t stupidâ€? bit?  I never said American life was comparable to life in Afghanistan under the Taliban, I supported the previous statement that a fundie is a fundie is a fundie.

Let me finish your previous post:
A fundie, is a fundie, is a fundie, and throughout history to the present day they have done whatever it takes to further their message and silence the opposition...all in the name of one god or another.

You are saying that “fundies” in America are the same as “fundies” in Afghanistan, but yet you agree that life in America is not like life in Aghanistan. How do you resolve this disconnect? Four more years of Bush? Just wait until the coming American theocracy? Again I point you right back to Christopher Hitchens—all you are doing is costing Democrats elections.

GeekMom- Amen.

I hear you about the problems of dealing with dual nationals- I don’t have to change diapers anymore, but have to fight with the one to get on the computer, and worry about when the other one’s coming home.  I’m sure real Americans don’t have these problems…