Daryl-  OK.  You say Europe is poor, because the Americans have a higher per capita GNP even after military spending.  I say the Europeans have more money to spend on other things because they spend less on the military and making the rich richer.

As Deadscot and Nowiser point out, reckoning a country’s wealth from the per capita GNP alone is not necessarily meaningful.  Last I heard, the deficit in the US was something like $25,000 per man, woman, and child, which somewhat tarnishes the shine of American productivity.

You also ignored the second part of my equation, making the rich richer.  Twenty-two percent of all American children now grow up in poverty, earning the US a rank of 22nd of 23 industrial nations, just ahead of Mexico and behind all the pre-2004 EU nations.  Infant mortality is higher and life expectancy lower in the US than in the EU.  It’s impossible to quantify how much of the Americans’s money goes to making the rich richer, but spiralling health costs (with 40 million Americans still uninsured, compared to zero Europeans), prison construction, and shifting the tax burden from the rich to the poor, have certainly done their share.

Not only that, but as the dollar continues going down against the Euro, the US per capita GNP goes down compared to the European.

So who’s “poorer?“  I guess it’s a matter of how one defines “poor”.  You fit well the picture the rest of the world has of Americans-  concerned with money to the exclusion of everything else.  I’d love to hear a response to the many other points I’ve made, but if all you have to offer is more stories about my greatgranddaughter’s burkha and how high the American per capita GNP is, don’t expect a serious response.

“Don’t worry, Europe, no matter how lazy and unwilling to work you are, you’ll never be homeless.  We’ll take money from those who do work, and make sure you have a place to sit on the couch all day.â€? Yuck.

Selfish much?  What, we can go be all altruistic “helping” the Iraqi people, but fuck the old, the injured, the vets, the laid-off, how is that ok?

How to respond to this?  At no other point in history would someone ask “so whatâ€?.  It’s a strange thing, this idea that a culture is going to simply decide to go extinct.

“decide to go extinct.“  Aside from the obvious usage errors in this phrase, I am irritated to find that you continue to talk about culture like it’s a lifeform.  Once again, give me an argument that means something.  Give me some evidence of an overall trend instead of isolated incidences.

Now, the U.S. defense budget for FY 2003 was $370 billion.  That’s a bit on the “highâ€? side because there’s a war on, but let’s just use it.  $370 billion works out to $1,260 per American, spent on defense.  So, even if Europe spends not one dime on any military at all, they’re still $9,000 to $11,000 behind their American counterparts—per person.

Couple of questions for you. 
1. What all does defense budget include?  I was of the impression that it did not include all military spending.

2. That’s per American, but really, is that spent equally on every American?  How does the spending break down comparatively?  Tell me why I’m better off when I am reluctant to come home next summer for lack of health insurance?  Why do the schools in my area still suck ass?  How does that money help me?

coming in VERY late, & only having a chance to skim over the whole, reading in detail the latest, I will speak from personal experience of the year I lived there BEFORE 9/11.  The only thing I seem to disagree with Daryl on is that emotions bear no relevance in discussion & debate. 

Whatever the milirary spending, their fucking arrogant white-trash, unorganized, unprofessional Swiss pansies swinging some form of automatic weapons around the train stations (mind you, BEFORE 9/11 or the bombing in Spain) while flirting with American girls stands in STARK contrast to the professional treatment I’ve recieved from our culturally diverse military while on bases, & police around town for that matter.

I saw MANY homeless poeople, & it was a differrent experience for me because in the US, So. CA LA area, I am used to seeing mostly single men, sometimes single women, rarely couples, & NEVER children or families homeless.  There, that’s all it was-single mothers & children of a specific ethnicity.  When I tried to help them there were no shelters to take them to, & local municipalities gave me “They’re not citizens,“ & I knew VERY well why.  Wrong ethnicity.

The racism in Europe, as I’ve posted before, APPALS my US tolerant-oriented sensibilities.  The difference between right & left wing there is that the left wants to kill the Jews themselves, & the right will pay someone else to do it.  The Frenchies did the worst job EVER of pretending to think they should hide this in the way they POURED money into Arafat, knowing it would do 2 things: pay for an upscale Paris apartment plus shopping sprees at the most sheik Paris stores, & kill Jews.  I can’t tell you how happy the Turkish & Arab businesses were to see a smiling face of someone that would look them in the eye & smile…I never had to pay for anything after awhile.  The stories they told me…try getting ANYTHING there without being a citizen, & take a look at the process of becoming a citizen.  You think Mexicans in So. CA, Arizona, or Texas have it hard here, HA!!!  You have to have 2 blood parents 2 genarations back in Germany!

I might even say in addition to racism, it’s languagism. Any kind of an accent will get a prompt FUCK YOU look.  (Because I should CLEARLY be able to speak PERFECT French even though I’ve struggled to learn the German & Italian of the coutries I live in just that shory year.)

As for education, ah where to start…Once again, the citizen thing.  So, as for these racist, elite, sons-of-bitches (okay, I’m getting pissed as I write, so I can’t wait for someone to discount everything I say, as emotion seems to have such little value when going the “wrong” direction on this site) who deny non-citizens education while their teachers emotionally abuse students before kicking them prompltly out the door at 14 with no hope of ever comeing back since they didn’t “perform” up to standards by 6th fucking grade. (Any of you ever goof off in the 6th grade?!!)  All so those who get a degree can collect a gov’t stipend rather than actually contribute to society.

All this while sniffing to me in an arrogant air of moral superiority about the death penalty when they hear my accent rather than follow a wonderful AMERICAN invention called pride in work & CUSTOMER FUCKING SERVICE. I can only imagine that this has since morphed into Iraq war bullshit, as my friends who have visited since, have told me.  I won’t even get started on the anti-Semitic incidents they told me about since 9/11 that the governments there CONTINUE to turn a blind eye to.

To close this & calm down by consuming some God-blessed capitalist products of comfort food, or maybe, better yet, something few Europeans have heard of-exercise!

CUSTOMER FUCKING SERVICE

How true. Many US companies are grand masters in fucking customers when they call for service.

I can’t wait for someone to discount everything I say

I’ll gladly oblige you. Try again after the decaf kicks in.

Europe isn’t perfect and some parts of your rant do indeed have a tenuous connection to reality. Neither the EU nor the US are perfect; both have real issues. So?

Ellie - With that post I can’t help but wonder if it was your attitude that prompted some of the treatment you received while in Europe.  Having lived in Germany for three years and traveled extensively throughout Europe, the old USSR and Northern Africa, I can honestly say that I have been equally discriminated against both here at home and abroad. (About a handful of times.)

Neither the EU nor the US are perfect; both have real issues. So?

Exactly.  IMHO We are particularly slow to learn from our mistakes, or those of other countries for that matter.

...something few Europeans have heard of-exercise!

I was just about to get all het up and say something nasty about how fat all the Americans are, but then I read what elwed and deadscot had to say, and my kinder, gentler self kicked in.  Amen.

Ellie- You seem to have experienced only the bad side of Europe.  If you’re ever in Vienna, look us up, and we’ll try to show you the good side.  I appreciate your grit.

About the only discrimination I suffered in Europe (Greece specifically) was men hitting on my because I have blond hair.  I wasn’t attacked once for my nationality—verbally or physically.
I’m not sure what customer service has to do with the death penalty, or why customer service is an American invention.  Rather, I would think that’s owed to the Japanese.  Only in Japan can I go into a convenience store, be greeted cheerfully, use the bathroom without buying anything, and then be thanked and bowed to on my way out.  Now that’s some CUSTOMER FUCKING SERVICE.
For that matter, wanna talk about ethnocentrism, Japan’s your country.  Wanna talk about racism? If a foreign man marries a Japanese woman, he has to take on a Japanese name.  But he will never, ever be a real Japanese person. The fact of the matter is, no matter where you go you will get racsim.  People think in categories, and as long as race continues to be a valid social construction, we’ll have racism.  Even in good ol’ down home USA.

ah, I feel so much more relaxed now…I think the title just pissed me off, & getting near holidays with grades due & all…I think in general Europe, as you mentioned, has it’s own problems as we do.  They can choose to live however they want.  Overall I think my experiences were because (for some reason, probably my CA accent) so many Europeans tended to assume that because I was visiting, I thought Europe was so much smarter & more enlightened than my homeland.  So they automatically started bashing America, & after a couple of months I got sick of it, & instead of staying quiet, I told them I was (gasp!) overall, proud of my country.  Interestingly, I thought this was something I’d never see in Europe http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/25/wchris25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/25/ixworld.html

Ellie- I came to Europe with a CA accent too, and didn’t experience any America-bashing.  Quite the contrary- everyone was grateful to the Americans for liberating them from the Nazis, getting them on their feet again after the war with the Marshall Plan, and everything about American culture was “cool”.  This was twenty years ago, and things have changed since then.

Of course Europeans have their problems too, and sometimes they piss me off and make me homesick for Californian openness.  Luckily, I usually manage to get back to the States once a year, which helps.

The site you provided, about the demands to put something in the European constitution about the Christian heritage, prompted me to read up some more about Theo van Gogh’s murder and the issues around it.  The best articles I found were in Dutch and German papers- if I find something good in English I’ll post it here.  Like most Europeans, I too have mixed feelings about the radical Muslims in our midst.  It’s not a simple problem, and I don’t have any simple answers.  One thing I do know: killing people tends to radicalize the survivors of the same nationality, race, religion…  And radical patriotism, racism, and fundamentalism are not what anyone needs.

Check out this article
about the beginnings of anti-terrorist legislation in the Netherlands.

Thanks, Shana.  This article gives a good idea of the problems faced in striking a balance between fighting terrorism and protecting civil rights.

But the tougher laws inevitably lean more on Muslims than on the population as a whole, exacerbating tensions that are already polarizing many European societies.

“The deterioration of community relations may actually undermine counterterrorism measures, because it reduces the willingness of people in these communities to cooperate with police and intelligence services,“ said Benjamin Ward, a lawyer for Human Rights Watch.

Terrorism must be fought.  But it must also be fought in the hearts and minds of the people, not just with laws and weapons.

Thanks, Zilch…I wrote more but it didn’t go through.  Grr, work computer!

What I find interesting/satisfying is that the lawmakers are at least attempting to preserve citizens’ rights while pursuing potential terrorists. 
I feel like no attempt was even made to preserve rights in America.  Women are being subjected to breast searches, in front of men, sometimes BY men in the airport now. 
Hide those Breast Bombs

First you have to strip, unzipping your boots, unbuckling your belt and unbuttoning your suit jacket while any guys standing around watch. Then you have to walk around in some flimsy top and stocking or bare feet. Then you have to assume the spread-eagled position. Then a beefy female security agent runs her hands all the way around your breasts, in between, underneath - again with guys standing around staring.

I mean, what the hell it up with that??!  If someone decides I may have explosives hidden, its gonna be a woman, and she’s gonna do it in the bathroom.  I ain’t stripping down for no man unless he’s hot and bought me dinner first
But really, what I want to know is do they single out women with large knockers?  Cause aint nobody hiding anything in my bra, lemme tell ya.

Maybe we’re not at the Philip K. Dick level of technology yet. But how about some positive profiling? If airport security can have a watch list for the bad guys, why can’t it develop a watch list for the good guys?

I think she offers some good advice.  What the hell are we doing when old ladies are having their breast manhandled?! 

YAR!!

Of course we have to have security in airports, but this is crazy.  Al Quaeda is rolling on the floor laughing, I’m sure.  When I was in Toronto a couple of years ago, they took away my daughter’s fingernail cleaner, even though it was only four inches long and not even remotely sharp.  I asked them if they also took away umbrellas with steel tips, and they had to admit they didn’t.  What kind of stupidity is this?

I seems like the TSA wants to bankrupt the airline industry, doesn’t it? If you can get people to stop flying because they’re disgusted by the make-believe security, the problem is solved.

Speaking of stupid Americans, this article was chock full of goodies:

From the NY Times: Bush Says Election Ratified Iraq Policy

President Bush said the public’s decision to reelect him was a ratification of his approach toward Iraq and that there was no reason to hold any administration officials accountable for mistakes or misjudgments in prewar planning or managing the violent aftermath.

“We had an accountability moment, and that’s called the 2004 elections,“ Bush said in an interview with The Washington Post. “The American people listened to different assessments made about what was taking place in Iraq, and they looked at the two candidates, and chose me.“

So all those protests just washed away, huh?  Nevermind the 48% that didn’t vote for him or his Iraq mess.

For the first time, Bush said he will not press senators to pass a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, the top priority for many social conservative groups.

...The president said there is no reason to press for the amendment because so many senators are convinced that the Defense of Marriage Act—which says states that outlaw same-sex unions do not have to recognize such marriages conducted outside their borders—is sufficient.

...[Later,] Scott McClellan called to say the president wished to clarify his position, saying Bush was “willing to spend political capital” but believes it will be virtually impossible to overcome Senate resistance until the courts render a verdict on DOMA.

Ah, a blessing.  Wait, a blessing with a caveat.  No, make that not a blessing at all, but it sounded like one.

Last week, Powell said U.S. troop levels could be reduced this year, but Bush said it is premature to judge how many U.S. men and women will be needed to defeat the insurgency and plant a new and sustainable government. He also declined to pledge to significantly reduce U.S. troop levels before the end of his second term in January 2009.

Pardon me, could you say that again?  January 2009?  We’re pouring money into a cause he has that little confidence in resolving?  We can’t continue spending like we are for another four years.

As for perhaps the most notorious terrorist, Osama bin Laden, the administration has so far been unsuccessful in its attempt to locate the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Asked why, Bush said, “Because he’s hiding.“

Well, duh.

Bush acknowledged that “some of the decisions I’ve made up to now have affected our standing in parts of the world,“ but predicted that most Muslims will eventually see America as a beacon of freedom and democracy.

Right.  They’ll just “see the light” after all these years.  I wish he were being cynical.

“Frankly, our discussions in terms of reform have not centered on the survivor-disability aspect of Social Security,“ Bush said. “We’re talking about the retirement system of Social Security.“

Well, glad we’ve got that cleared up.

“I did my best to reach out, and I will continue to do so as the president,“ Bush said. “It’s important for people to know that I’m the president of everybody.“

Well, you may be the President of everybody, but you’re not the boss of me!

Americans are emotionally ignorant.

Some really really stupid American wrote this earlier:
“If we’re so stupid, why is it that half the world wants to be like us?“

That is the kind of comment that really pisses me off about Americans. The rest of the world does not want to become like you! I know here in Australia whenever things go wrong, bad statistics about obesity or crime etc. we compare ourselves to you guys and everyone gets terrified we’ll end up like the great USA. I have also seen a huge amount of evidence of American stupidity; the USA is used all the time in comedy here because of the dumb things you guys say. I saw once on an Aussie documentary they asked American college kids to point out Australia on a map, some pointed to Greenland, others to North Korea, it was ridiculous. What’s wrong with your education system! and I hear bush and others all the time spouting off wonderful things about the USA being a first world country, land of the free etc. but when I was there on holidays for two months I have never seen such a substandard health system or such racism in my life! While at a road stop somewhere out in the desert the waitress told me “lucky your not black, we hates niggers here and run them outta town” I had never heard such crap! And your crime rates are dreadful! I was in Toronto on Student exchange program for a few months and watched the New York can. The stories went from bashing to rape to triple homicide back to rape and murder. It was all death and misery. Your gun crimes statistics alone are over 8 times greater than anywhere else in the world. And your obesity epidemic is scary. I have never seen so many overweight people since I visited the states. You can blame it on genetics and disease and technology all you like but it is basically because you eat crap food and sit around watching television. Your candy bars average size is a jumbo here and you jumbo sizes are like the size of a whole meal! It’s feral. The most prominent reason though that I think the rest of the world thinks Americans are dumb is because of good ol’ George W Bush. The crap that comes out of his mouth! I once herd him say “you missundersetimate meâ€? wtf does that mean! And the press just sat there and said nothing!  If that had happened her with our OM the whole country would be making fun of him but bush seems to be taken seriously, it’s crazy. Also how can he not know what tribal sovereignty is? We learn that in year 7. I dunno if you ppl saw that speech but Bush got payed out for weeks about that in our newspapers here. Other stuff to amount the USA makes me angry too. Your abortion rates, no. of people living on the streets, suicides, depression, gun control, third world ghettos and slums, the amount of pollution and rubbish you create, crappy American movies like pearl harbour (ok ben and josh are hot but the movie was shit). And while I feel really sorry for the ppl that died in 9/11 millions are dying in Africa every day from civil war and aids and you do nothing but a tiny amount of people in comparison where suffering in Iraq and Afghanistan and your were there in a second to ‘liberate these oppressed people’! What about the 1 million people slaughtered in the Congo in the last 10 years during their civil war! Where were you then? A few ppl from the Central Idiots Agency (CIA) were there butting in and supplying weapons but that was it. Stupid Americans, you make me so angry cause you but in all over the middle east just because of a whisper of ‘oil’ and the excuse of saving the oppressed. And it’s you guys that start these things! If you hadn’t given Iraq the MWD’s when they were fighting Iran? And you supplies bin laden and al qaeda! You think you would have learned your lesson but noooo.  Why don’t you sort out your own country before you start trying to fix the world? There is so much more I can complain about but I am tired so I’ll save it for another day. Just remember the rest of the world is trying very hard not to be like you! You are the example of what not to be.

As a proud eighth generation Australian citizen, I’d like to distance myself from everything Liz just wrote.

Although I would really like to see here forced to point to Djibouti or Monaco or Kiribatai or some other random country on a map.

Stupid Americans, you make me so angry cause you but in all over the middle east just because of a whisper of ‘oil’

Shit.  Sorry about that.  I actually didn’t think anybody would get that upset about it.  Next time, I’ll approach the whole oil theft thing with a little more sensitivity.

And it’s you guys that start these things!

Christ, already!  I said I was sorry!  (Some people. . .  they just don’t know when to let it go already!)

the USA is used all the time in comedy here because of the dumb things you guys say.

Three words: Steve “crikey” Irwin.

I was there on holidays for two months I have never seen such a substandard health system or such racism in my life!

Wow! A whole two months!  I guess you’re ready to churn out that dissertation on American cultural norms now.  You is an expurt!

You can blame it on genetics and disease and technology all you like but it is basically because you eat crap food and sit around watching television

Really?  I thought part of it was because we actually work longer/more hours than workers in any other industrialized nation on the planet.  To the tune of about 360 hours a year.  Hey, that’s almost an hour a day!  With an extra hour a day, I might actually be able to go grocery shopping, or cook, or maybe even go to the gym!

But hey, at least I’m rich.  Oh, wait.  No I’m not; I can barely afford to pay my rent and bills.

Yeah.  Americans are sooooo lazy.

The most prominent reason though that I think the rest of the world thinks Americans are dumb is because of good ol’ George W Bush. The crap that comes out of his mouth!

Ok.  Ya got me there.  Bush isn’t quite as articulate as Steve Irwin.  Although he’d probably be even funnier if we could just get him to say ‘crikey!‘

I once herd him say “you missundersetimate me� wtf does that mean!

“herd him say?“  Man.  That typo wouldn’t be even a fraction as funny if you had managed to squeeze it into any other sentence.  But you nailed it.  It’s almost like it was deliberate!

Although I would really like to see here forced to point to Djibouti or Monaco or Kiribatai or some other random country on a map.

Oh, come on.  Cut her some slack on that one.  It’s pretty bad when someone can’t identify a fucking continent.

While at a road stop somewhere out in the desert the waitress told me “lucky your not black, we hates niggers here and run them outta town� I had never heard such crap!

Tsk tsk.  Glass houses and all. . .
http://www.whiteprideco.com/forum/

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/sep1999/geno-s07.shtml

What about the 1 million people slaughtered in the Congo in the last 10 years during their civil war! Where were you then?

Working.  So that I wouldn’t get evicted.  I know that sounds ignoble in comparison to the time that you spent there, fixing up the whole mess, but I’ve got two dogs to feed, and they eat a LOT.

but bush seems to be taken seriously

Hey, a monkey with a gun is only funny until he starts pulling the trigger.  Then the humor wears off real quickly!

There is so much more I can complain about but I am tired so I’ll save it for another day.

Oh joy!  I’m so looking forward to it!  I really need more Australian tourists to ejumicate me about the state of my country after spending a whopping two months here.

I have also seen a huge amount of evidence of American stupidity

Yeah?  Well I get Animal Planet.  I’ve got Steve “crikey the crocodile hunter” Irwin on fucking tap!  Turn the spigot, and out he spews!

You’re right Liz, this is fun.  Tomorrow, I think I’ll do China.  And then maybe Poland.  Oh wait, that’s kind of played out.  Oh! Oh!  I know, I’ll do Malaysia! 

All right.  My time is up.  I have to go back to the ‘quiet room’ now.

Nowiser, you are awesome. The mental image of Bush saying “Crikey!“ will stick with me for the rest of my life.

Liz seems to believe that Australia had nothing to do with the war in Iraq (despite daily news reports telling us exactly what our troops are doing over there) and that we’re free from racism (try telling that to the 14% of my electorate who voted One Nation a few years ago) and that we don’t share with America the highest obesity rates in the world.

Liz even seems to believe that Australian culture, like American culture, isn’t mined for comedy around the world (the episode of the Simpsons where they go to Australia is one of my personal favourites).

I’m all for patriotism, I love this place, but it has it’s problems and some of them are serious. Liz has obviously found a way to ignore the problems and lives instead in some bizarro-universe version of the world where America is the only place with crime, racism and disease.

Don’t worry, Mick.  Anyone looking at her “spiel” can see that her numerous errors, both grammatical and spelling are the result of a stunted mind.  Stupidity is an equal opportunity afflictor- it doesn’t care about your race, religion, nationality, etc…  Attempting to pigoenhole every single member of a demographic is not only a futile effort but laughable at best.  She (?) apparently didn’t even bother to read the thread enough to realize that many of the Americans posting on this thread were against the re-election, the war, and the current trend of certain American policies.
  BTW, love the Kiribatai mention.  That truly is the “end of the world” even if it is “relatively” close to those of you in Oz.  Monaco doesn’t fit though because of Princess Caroline, Monte Carlo, and the fact that it is right next to Italy.  You should have chosen Andorra for Europe.

Andorra, good one. I always liked Lichtenstein though, it’s the princpality of principalities!

hmm..

reading from the start of the post, someone should really inform Americans about who invented the telephone, and what countries he came from and then lived in.

And we invented basketball too.

a Canadian.

peace.

Chris, are you claiming that Bell’s sojourn in Ontario was responsible for the invention of the telephone?  That perhaps exposure to Canadian smarts gave him the extra smidgeon of genius necessary for its invention?  Typical Canadian logic.  As the son of William Wallace, I know where his brainpower came from…

I have to admit, though, that the “invention” of throwing a ball through a hoop sounds plausibly Canadian.

Just to clarify, Europeans did NOT invent the Internet! It was American military technology. The WWW was European, but the browser to use it is American. America remains the leader of science and technology. Canada did not invent basketball! It was invented by a Canadian, but he was in the US when he did it, not in Canada.  THE GAME WAS DEVELOPED HERE! Even if we didn’t develop it, so what? Who cares? We have our OWN sports, baseball (different from cricket with a loyal following worldwide), softball (becoming popular around the world) football (different from rugby and the largest one day sporting event on earth), Nascar (invented stock car racing and gaining popularity in Mexico, Japan, and other nations), skateboarding (the teenage sport of choice worldwide), etc. Whatever is controversial aside, America has plenty to fall back on.