Justin- I just got around to reading that Christopher Hitchens article, and. and, and, suddenly Bush makes sense!  The liberals are going to be eating crow (if the Koran doesn’t forbid it) when Bin Laden is President!  I’m gonna vote Republican for sure now!

Seriously- don’t you read any of these comments?  Who here has said anything against pursuing Bin Laden and deposing the Taliban in Afghanistan (the article said not a word about Iraq)?  Hitchens seems to think that liberals (and if he’s a liberal, I’m the Queen of Sheba) are apologists for Bin Laden!  OK, there are a few idiots out there (Karlheinz Stockhausen comes to mind) who think 9/11 was a good deed.  But he’s an idiot.  I would be willing to bet a great deal that most Democrats don’t really like Bin Laden, or Sharia, or the Taliban.  That still doesn’t make the invasion of Iraq a good idea.

And as for choosing between fundie flavors- the Christian sort hasn’t perhaps been as violent recently as the Muslim (barring the odd abortion clinic, but hey- no one’s perfect).  Then again, nowadays the Christian fundies have much cushier lives on the whole (here in the pre-afterlife) than the Muslims, and can’t look forward to the 72 virgins promised the faithful in the Koran, just a harp and angel wings- hell, I know what I’d go for!- so they are probably less enticed by the joys of suicide bombing.  I do like playing the harp, though, and if God were to tune it for me, I’d be tempted…

Grey, Daryl, Justin- tell us how invading Iraq is helping anyone except Bin Laden.

Regardless of what any of you say, I think Christians, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, and Buddhist (except for David Carradine) are all murderous dogs.

Religion is responisble for this big divide amongst the human populouses living here on Earth.

I think religion in all it’s facets is like poison. Just look at all the world wars we’re having, it’s by some remote circumstance that we are experiencing all this death and despair just because people worldwide disagree on things.

It’s because of crazy white people like you guys and the religions they’ve created that are destroying the world.

I wish we could live in world peace with all ethnicities, sexes, and various other backgrounds, but with crazy white people and their religions we are all doomed to a fate like the characters that played in Terminator 2: Judgement Day.

Peace.

It’s because of crazy white people like you guys and the religions they’ve created that are destroying the world.

Who the hell is “you guys”? Are you lost?

with crazy white people and their religions we are all doomed to a fate like the characters that played in Terminator 2: Judgement Day.

Yeah, Ben is definitely lost. Did you link here from a christian BLOG by accident. Delirious racists should refrain from speaking.

Hitchens was a liberal, and he was very prominant figure in liberal circles—until 9/11. Then he changed. That is probably the reason why he is so upset with the Left.

Hitchens seems to think that liberals (and if he’s a liberal, I’m the Queen of Sheba) are apologists for Bin Laden!  OK, there are a few idiots out there (Karlheinz Stockhausen comes to mind) who think 9/11 was a good deed.  But he’s an idiot.  I would be willing to bet a great deal that most Democrats don’t really like Bin Laden, or Sharia, or the Taliban. 

I completely agree with you, as does Christopher Hitchens. That is Hitchens’ central point—the disconnect between mainstream Democrats and the far left is hurting the party.

That still doesn’t make the invasion of Iraq a good idea.

There are a lot of Republicans that agree with you that Iraq was a mistake.

It’s because of crazy white people like you guys and the religions they’ve created that are destroying the world.

Ben, my only disagreement is that religions that destroy the world are not just the purview of crazy white guys.

There are some pretty murderous Asians and Africans out there too.

Oh yeah, and those bad-ass Incas.  Don’t forget them.

Hey Ben- I agree that religion and crazy white people are responsible for a lot of the world’s problems, but that doesn’t tell us much about what anyone- religious or not, white or black or whatever, should do to make things better.

Sometimes I’m as cynical as you seem to be about our chances, but history teaches us that we can’t predict the future.  And being optimistic, even though it may be irrational, is more fun than being pessimistic.

About David Carradine- I was in line behind him once at the Renaissance Faire years ago, and tried to talk to him, but he was pretty unfriendly.  Maybe he’d just had enough of being polite to fans, though.

Peace to you too.

Listen, Chazzy666, I am not a racist (as some of you would like to believe).

I believe a racist has the power to invoke his or her’s hatred as a tool of impowerment.

And with that power, he or she is able to establish a means of brutalizing others socially, financially, physically and institutionally, and therefore make slaves or create schizms within the worldwide domain.

I’m a black man and it kills me everytime when all you hippies and delusional political freaks get into these big debates about America and the state of the world.

I just want to have world peace (especially when Half-lIfe 2 comes out and I’ll have plenty enough gallons of Mountain Dew and Chipotle burritos to keep me going sir).

Come to think of it, am I on the right message board? Do you guys play video games (Yar’s Revenge doesn’t count, hippies)?

Funny, since white guys didnt make any of those religions you just listed, with the possible exception of Catholicism, odd Ben from an alternate universe.

You are saying that “fundies� in America are the same as “fundies� in Afghanistan, but yet you agree that life in America is not like life in Aghanistan. How do you resolve this disconnect? Four more years of Bush? Just wait until the coming American theocracy? Again I point you right back to Christopher Hitchens—all you are doing is costing Democrats elections.

Um, because fundies aren’t the sole determinant in quality of life.  Because at this current time, America is not a theocracy and has enough of a beaurocracy in place to keep fundies from declaring a revolution.  Because no one has been bombing American fundies’ houses and defaming their churches.
It’s a whle different ballgame when all the shit happens close to home.  Sure, maybe 9/11 happened on our soil, but I’m sure they can list a whole bunch more offences on theirs.  I am not justifying anything they’ve done, I’m just understanding their motives here and answering your question.

I had hopes that this may turns into an interesting debate. Perhaps another time.

Elwed, can I call you Elwed, because I am too tired to type the whole name right now?  I am so with you.  Let’s get beyond the means in which the question was conveyed.  I want to talk about what happened in this election, not whether or not Bush is honest or white people are crazy.

BTW, alternate reality Ben, I am FUCKING CRAZY.  Run, run the FUCK away.  Scary white girl AHHHHH!

Ooh ooh and me!  Don’t forget I called you a racist too, Ben!

Racist means prejudice from race.
That is what you are.

Justin- who are these “far left” types who are destroying the Democrats, who are apologists for Bin Laden?  No one I know.  I suspect they exist in the fevered imaginations of the Republicans, and in the image foisted on the Democrats by Karl Rove, Christopher Hitchens, and their ilk more than anywhere else.

And if lots of Republicans think Iraq was a mistake, why did they vote for Bush?

I think you guys and girls are all cool as hell.

But, when the 9-11 thing happened, you guys went crazy (just like when you guys killed the Natives) and went bonkers over there in the middle-east.

Shit, I’m even scared of you guys here in America and I think you guys might try to renact slavery or something (especially with that idiot president of ours George W. Bush in office).

It’s almost like I’m an alien fighting for his life on some barren, alien hostile enviornment (without any of the Soylent Green present).

Help me out.

Peace.

P.S.

Shana, you are definitely one cute (but crazy) white girl.

Kisses and hugs (if you’re not married).

Look, Ben.  I didn’t kill ANY natives, since I WASN’T ALIVE.
I also protested the war in Iraq.  I would never condone slavery and I would do every thing in my power to stop it.
So why are you blaming me?

I hope the next president is a women.

Because I think men in general are destroying the fucking planet. Let’s hope somebody like Susan Sarandon or Oprah decides to run in 2008.

Hell, why are all politicians old, rich, white dudes with nothing better to do than destroy the planet?

Let me know.

Peace.

Shana I apologize if I offended you.

And I didn’t mean to say that all white people are crazy, even though I said it in a jokingly manner.

I’m just mad because that asshole Bush won the election (I still think they rigged the whole thing in his favor).

I wish somebody like Kerry would’ve won, and hopefully end this war in Iraq (because I hate to see people on both sides die in a stupid crusade for oil).

And no, you didn’t kill the Natives (the pilgrims made sure of that).

And again please forgive me for acting like such a stupid idiot.

Sincerely,

Ben (not the Michael Jackson “Ben").

No, no.  I suspected you were up to something, Ben.  But it was the you, you, you, and it’s so hard to tell on the interweb, made it difficult.  Maybe if you had put Chris Rock up there instead of Ben, I would have caught on faster
You are not a stupid idiot, just a crazy black man.
Just be careful where you point that you, it’s a powerful weapon.

Thanks, Shana, I appreciate it.

Now I’m going to go play some Half-Life, sip some Mountain Dew, and listen to my George Carlin cds.

Five to one, baby
One in five
No one here gets out alive
Now, you get yours baby
I’ll get mine
We’re gonna make it baby if we try

P.S.

Jim Morrison is a genius, I wish he was alive. Because he would know what to say about all this brutal savageness.

Um, because fundies aren’t the sole determinant in quality of life.  Because at this current time, America is not a theocracy and has enough of a beaurocracy in place to keep fundies from declaring a revolution.  Because no one has been bombing American fundies’ houses and defaming their churches.

You are saying that if the “fundies” had even more political power, life in America would be the like life under the Taliban. The Left is bound and determined to ignore Hitchens’ advice.

Seems as if Ben needs some attention. He comes accross as intentionally trying to piss everyone off by being an uber racist and inflammatory. He just doesn’t seem real.

If I’m wrong I’m sorry.

ps. I didn’t say anything earlier, but there is no reason to call the French ‘froggies’. Maybe you were being sarcastic. Sometimes it can be hard to tell the mood of text.

“French frogs”. It’s an old stereotype. Nothing too offensive really. It’s mainly used by kids.

French frogs for the french and square heads for the english. In french, english = anglais, and in anglais you have the word angle and a square has angles. French kids also call or should I say use to call anglophones.....roastbeefs.

I am pretty sure “frogs” comes from the frog legs meal.

Like I said, It ain’t too offensive.

There is a kind of friendly rivalry between France and England. The same goes for Quebec against the rest of Canada. It’s no big thing.

I know I havent posted in a minute but, I finally got a second to sit down out of this crazy week.

Hey, listen, I am a republican, and I agree with being over in Iraq NOW. I do not think that we can pull out now, there would be american lives lost for no reason, there is no way we can do this,(as a republican I wanted to refrain from using this analogy) if we pull out now, this could turn out as another Vietnam. We are over there now and there is nothing we can do to change that now, because it would be BAD and purposeless. That would be the worst thing that we could do.

WOW! Shana you have had a lot of time on your hands. sorry I havent written in awhile, I’ve had way too much shit to do. I kinda missed the whole racial comment things, but I knew you could handle it, , leave it to a female!

I think I may be done, gonna go post somewhere else for a minute.

This thread has become an effort in futility.

You are saying that if the “fundies� had even more political power, life in America would be the like life under the Taliban. The Left is bound and determined to ignore Hitchens’ advice.

The all powerful, authoritative Hitchens again.  Have you taken the time to read some of his other editorials?

Fundamentalists are generally cyclic in nature.  Even Hitchen’s acknowledges this point in his article.  While one may be very civil and positive in nature, another may be attempting to destroy the world as we know it.

Christian Fundamentalists played the role in the past that we currently see the modern Islamists playing.  As the power begins to shift, and if fundamentalist movements are left unchecked, we will see the cycle move on to a different sect.

So, if the ‘fundies’ in America achieve more political power we will have more elements of a Taliban like environment.  The only thing that prevents that from happening is clear thinking moderates.

So, if the ‘fundies’ in America achieve more political power we will have more elements of a Taliban like environment.  The only thing that prevents that from happening is clear thinking moderates.

Let’s talk about the “clear thinking moderates” because I think that gets us back to the heart of the debate. We have some fierce secularists in this thread and we have some fierce fundies in this thread. So if Democracy is doing it’s job, we both rely on the “clear thinking moderates” to chose the best side, and that is the side that wins. The problem for the Democrats, which Hitchens has articulated nicely, is that those “clear thinking moderates” are siding with the fundies on the right and not the apologists on the left.

Which brings us full circle: How can Americans be so stupid? Those clear thinking moderates were supposed to vote for Kerry!

No, it brings us half-circle.  There simply aren’t enough clear thinking moderates to offset the ignorant, entrenched and befuddled masses.

If you’ll look at the recent history of the Republican party, they have developed a very focused message, leaving many Americans out of the picture.  Now, the challenge the democrats have is appealing to the whole of that disparate majority.  It’s somewhat like a three party system with only two parties.

It’s still amazes my that educated Christians bought in to Bush’s propaganda.  I don’t think it’s so much the work of the republican campaign per se, as it is the churches themselves.

If the fundies take away my access to birth control pills, my right to free speech (or perhaps that’s just a Bush thing with the patriot acts), the rights of gays to marry, force me to pray in school and say the god pledge of allegiance, what’s next?  Mandatory church services?  That’s a slippery slope, my friend.

“So if Democracy is doing it’s job, we both rely on the “clear thinking moderatesâ€? to chose the best side, and that is the side that wins.”

No.  It’s the clear thinking moderates’ job to try and moderate, >get it?<, the crazy ass things that Bush is doing right now.  They don't have to be in office to do that, though it would be nice.

"Now, the challenge the democrats have is appealing to the whole of that disparate majority.  It’s somewhat like a three party system with only two parties."

Can I get an amen?

I have some more reasons, back to the original question:
Have you read that article in the Onion,

Nation’s Poor Win Election for Nation’s Rich?

I think that that’s actually a very valid statement.  Take my father, for ex.  He is a steel worker, AFAIK classed with all those manufacturing jobs which had their stats supplemented with burger stackers.  He lives in a small town, and works a really shitty schedule.  He’s been at the same job for going on ten years, while they have cut his pay and benefits and threatened lay offs for financial reasons.  When he comes home, he is so tired and angry at his job that he grabs a coke or a beer and turns the TV on, and just RANTS.  He wants to be angry at someone for the ways in which his life sucks, and the someone becomes whoever is on the news that he can safely hate.  Terrorists, gays, France, what have you.  Far from actually reading a newspaper, listening to radio news, reading books, or taking in any other source of information, all he does is watch TV. In anger.  And he has told me, point blank, that he believes everything he sees.

Now, you’ll have to excuse me; I have been in Japan for the last year and missed all the election programming.  Some of you say it was liberally biased, others say not.  I am not informed enough about it to have an opinion on it.
But I think that he is so ignorant because he simply doesn’t have the time and energy to read decent news, and because he wants to be angry.  Fox tells him they have evidence of WMDs, he wants someone to hate, presto, another Bush voter.  Kerry simply couldn’t inspire enough hatred against the guy that talks like my dad does when he’s angry.  I mean, hearing Bush say, “let’s go get em!” is so much more exciting than listening to Kerry reason away Bush’s decisions.  Pictures of Kerry at an anti-war protest are more inspiring than photos of a blacked out military record.  And it’s a WAR!  Come on!  Armchair generals everywhere love a war on TV.  It allows them to feel like they actually have power over anything as opposed to slugging along in their jobs day after day.

Another potential reason: all that crap ass chain email trashing Kerry.  When I requested opinions on the elections from my friends for my speech, one of them sent me this one-sided half-factual rant about Kerry’s wife’s ketchup factory outsourcing.

Daryl- still out there, or did we scare you off?

Grey- do you think invading Iraq was a good idea, and if so, why?  If not, why did you vote for the clown who got us there?  Does he have any other selling points I don’t know about?

Nicki- I agree, simply pulling out of Iraq now would leave a terrible mess.  I’m not sure we will make things any better by staying, however.  At this point anything we do is going to be painful for everyone involved, and even with the best will and intelligence, the outcome is unpredictable.  What is predictable, however, is that if we don’t learn from this, we’ll get into more trouble.

Your argument that if we pull out now, the war would have been “bad and purposeless”, and “there would be American lives lost for no reason”, has a familiar ring. We were told the same thing about Vietnam, and we stayed and stayed, and more and more lives were lost, and it was still bad and purposeless.  What did it achieve, other than the Rambo flics?  I hope I don’t have to remind anyone what happened there, although some conservatives still seem to think the Vietnam war (aka “the trillion dollar rathole") was a good idea.  I don’t know enough about Iraq to say what we should do there now, but a good starting point would be to not vote for the idiots who got us in there.

deadscot- what you said.  This brings us full-circle back to my original post, where I wondered how the Americans could be duped by such simplistic thinking.  Complex ideas about a complex world are, disappointingly for an optimistic appraisal of human intelligence, a hard sell compared to what fundamentalists of all stripes, be they Christian, Muslim, Right, Left, or whatever, offer us.  Sure, we must make choices and adopt platforms that we know are imperfect, or we’ll never do anything.  But if we start to believe that our worldview is simply the way things are, and stop looking and listening, there’s little hope for us.

shana- Amen.  Sorry your father has it so tough.  I think your insight about his situation hits the nail on the head, and helps explain why Bush won, and the appeal of demagogues everywhere (here in Austria too, although at least they don’t have the Bomb).