What are you people talking about?
WWII was a war fought for territorial expansion (just like WWI)..hegemony power of the nations was the result, quite reasonable.
But consider that even before WWII american overseas expansionism had already begun...what about puerto rico after the spanish-american war?
America had always this stupid belief of “civilizing” other less “civilized” peoples (the rationale of manifest destiny)...this is what is happening in irak, where the iraki people is very much looked down upon.
So America is an empire, because you suddenly have an american administration imposed and you guys have military occupation of an area. Where’s hegemony there?
America is just not a FORMAL empire, like the british, french, german, even the spanish once were...Or better said, it wasn’t a formal empire but an informal one based on economic investment as the way to penetrate the territory to “colonise”. Nowadays you people should seriously consider whether DC is not the capital of a new formal empire that has decided to “come out of the closet”.

Ummm...yeah…

Ana said:

What are you people talking about?  WWII was a war fought for territorial expansion (just like WWI)..hegemony power of the nations was the result, quite reasonable.

I don’t believe it was the USA who was invading other countries and adding them to their empire in WWII.  I thought it was the Germans/Italians in Europe and the Japanese in Asia, but I guess I’m wrong.  Or perhaps you are not a native English speaker, so you didn’t understand my point.  My point was that in comparison to other great powers in history, the USA has acted quite well…obviously some horrendous things happened in our past, but the best you can come up with is Puerto Rico?  What about Texas?  The slaughter and relocation of Native Americans?

Then you said:

America had always this stupid belief of “civilizing” other less “civilized” peoples (the rationale of manifest destiny)…this is what is happening in irak, where the iraki people is very much looked down upon.

I don’t think the concept of Americans “civilizing” less civilized people is unique to American history.  I believe the imperial European powers dwarf us in that regard.  My goodness, one quarter of the Earth is still a part of the British Commonwealth.

I guess the fact that the Iraqis signed an unconditional surrender after the Gulf War means nothing to anyone.  I am not a cheerleader for this recent operation in Iraq, but it can not be argued that Saddam was not complying with the terms of his surrender.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the “civilized” status of the Iraqi people.

really? it had nothing to do with the “civilized” status of the iraqi people?
take a look at bush’s speech when war was declared to irak, he talked about liberation, about saddam being a dictator (quite true..but isn’t bush as dictator as saddam when deciding that HE will liberate all those who did not want to be “liberated”?)...well, liberation is part of the rationale of manifest destiny lemme tell you.
And it’s true that it was a burden that the former empires put on america, but why is history so useful?...after all, what bush is doing is to follow history...you know, war heroes were always elected presidents..quite a coincidence...THINK, come on, is not so difficult.
Back to 2000, Bush was a popular-vote loser brought to power...it’s quite amazing how much popularity he has acquired lately.
He may thank osama bin laden and saddam hussein in his prayers.
And about your argument in saying that the US wasn’t invading other countries in WWII, i did not mean that, where did I say that?....I just meant to say that it was a nice lil job to pretend to be an hegemonic power and come up with this kind of military occupation in the 21st century.
btw, the lone star republic has nothing to do with all this....i’m not mexican if your intention is to hurt my feelings. I’m not american, that’s true...I come from an oppressed country which is Argentina (and now you’ll most probably come up with maradona and his addiction blah blah blah).
aaaanyway, all i’m saying is that you have no right of demanding a surrender…
nuclear weapons, that was another reason for going to war, I’m still waiting to see them.
and the best I can come up with is hiroshima and nagasaki in WWII, remember?...who are the ones who have used that kind of weapons?
Why don’t you guys take a good look at your problems at home such as racism, violence, the superiority of the WASP before getting into all this.
You’re not a city upon a hill, really.
You have your pros and cons, start looking more fiercely in the latter so as to become i dunno if a better nation, but better people...so that you don’t go around saying “why did they do this to us?” like exactly two years ago.

You really misuse the term Manifest Destiny.  It was a disorganized, mid-19th century movement in this country and had nothing to do with conquering territories overseas.  One of the primary groups supporting Manifest Destiny was southern slave owners; they felt they could spread slavery to newly established territory and gain more political clout in Washington, DC.  Since African slaves were my ancestors, you might say I don’t really support their position .

Why don’t you guys take a good look at your problems at home such as racism, violence, the superiority of the WASP before getting into all this.

I lived outside of this country for 13 years; 9 years in England and 4 in Germany and have visited numerous others.  In my observations, this country offers more opportunities for minorities than any other I have ever visited.  In England, I saw no evidence of affluence among “non-Anglo minorities” and little involvement by minorities in the “system”.  England has a very large population of “blacks”, but I saw none who were for instance, high level government officials or high ranking military members.  I saw very few non-Anglo politicians, celebrities, or even low-ranking military members.  On violence, it appears we have done something about it…our violent crime rates are at the lowest levels since I’ve been alive (and Dwight Eisenhower was President when I was born)!  I am not a WASP, I’m a BAPP (Black Angry Pissed-off Person), so I’ll let the WASPs apologize for themselves .

btw, the lone star republic has nothing to do with all this….i’m not mexican if your intention is to hurt my feelings. I’m not american, that’s true

I only mentioned Texas to show there were much larger “conquests” made by the Americans.  I did not mean to imply you were Mexican; how would I know that?  I only wondered if you understood my previous postings.  English is my wife’s second language and though she is nearly fluent in speech and writing, we have had some “massive” misunderstandings!

Which brings me to the most interesting part of your last post?

You have your pros and cons, start looking more fiercely in the latter so as to become i dunno if a better nation, but better people…so that you don’t go around saying “why did they do this to us?” like exactly two years ago.

I have never wondered, “Why they did this to us”.  I don’t wonder that any more than I would wonder why a thief broke into my house or why someone stole my car!  I could say to myself, “Well that guy really needed my car and maybe I should give more to the poor and help those who don’t have cars…it was my fault that my car was stolen”.  Bullshit! The only thing I wonder about those terrorists is what their last thoughts were right before they were vaporized by our military forces.  Those 3,000 people did not do anything to those lunatic terrorists!  It’s interesting to me how non-Americans often say that America, and by extension the people who died in those attacks, “deserved it!” I’m not saying you think that, but I have heard many people say that, even our supposed “allies”.

Wow, Argentina!  I thought you guys had a little disagreement with the British over the Falkland Islands 20+ years ago.  I would imagine you would understand better than most what I meant by “European Imperialism”.

Come on..manifest destiny is still inside your political leaders’ heads. I repeat: analyse bush’s speech when war was declared.
And I DO know all that crap about southern slave owners who wanted to apply manifest destiny in the territories acquired by the missouri compromise (there you have the decadent european imperialism of napoleon) and by the war with mexico (when you became a continental nation).
I do know all that crap, and is quite interesting that if you look back into history..exactly all that thing of invading for liberating is included in the rationale of manifest destiny.
Btw, I’ve lived outside my country too. My husband is american, a californian, from L.A. A complete WASP lacking all that bullshit except the colour of his skin. So I do have contact with american ppl, I actually work for the U. S. embassy indirectly down here and lemme tell you that 80% of americans here think exactly like me.
You said you had been around the world. Well, you just mention England and Germany...those are not countries which were oppressed, those are not countries that see ppl dying of hunger or cold everyday. You should go around seeing more about what’s really going on in the rest of the countries which are victims of capitalism and anglobalization.

And I did understand your previous postings. All I’m saying is that the U.S. is NOW behaving like a 19th century empire. You cannot go around saying that you guys behaved quite good after WWII with the Europeans countries when it was due to economic interests. If those countries did not prosper again, what would you do with all your industrialisation and the economy of credit?
It all makes sense if you come to think that all that started in 1945, in the 60’s you guys were not soooo nice with the cubans.
And just lemme put one more thing clear, because many ppl can think that I defend the 911 attacks. I DO not, I hate violence in any way...but when the world becomes so horribly disunited and the leaders do not listen, extremists use that kind of stuff to make others see their needs.
And now...the falklands, that IS something said to hurt my feelings. I hate that fucking stupid war. It’s embarrasing. I was only two years old when it was fought and lemme tell you that here we are most critical of it. We were under a dictator, a drunk old man who thought that war would bring ppl together under the stupid feeling of nationalism. We were bullshitted by the media who told us that we were winning (can you imagine that?...our army of 18 year-old boys against the english, the americans, and even brazil and chile which colaborated in the war working for the british).
So that war for us who think about it and do not try to ignore it like most argentinians do is the living memory of how syupid we can be..of how leaders can blind you, of how important is to be on the path of what is REALLY going on.
Honestly, I do not care about those two strips of land. They can keep it if they want, I don’t care...we would not use them if they were ours nowadays, trust me.
But, I don’t think you do care much about out history and our war, I may be boring you.
Just to sum up, I do understand your notion of European Imperialism, you just have to see that The US had embraced it long before WWII, that’s what I’m saying.
Your former leaders had learned from the spanish empire to evangelise other peoples (you are doing that all the time, evangelism is still quite popular in am. culture) and they had learned from the english that a strong fleet was needed to protect economic interests with foreign powers. Take a look at your history in the late 19th century and you’ll realise that all that was done to secure american interests as the european empires had done so long ago.
So when yourselves had suffered that kind of oppression, you still put it on practice towards others.
You americans just lack a little bit of history by howard zinn, there’s finally an intelligent white man.
And I’m sorry if my english is not as good enough as for you to think that I do not understand your comments....do not underestimate me please.
I may not write beautifully as you do...all I care is about ideas...to respect others and to put into practice mine, not to let them be a complete irony just like the “all men are created equals” so nicely written in your declaration of independence.

The Missouri Compromise was an attempt to keep parity between slave states and free states: 

Through the efforts of Henry Clay, “the great pacificator,” a compromise was finally reached on March 3, 1820, after Maine petitioned Congress for statehood. Both states were admitted, a free Maine and a slave Missouri, and the balance of power in Congress was maintained as before, postponing the inevitable showdown for another generation. In an attempt to address the issue of the further spread of slavery, however, the Missouri Compromise stipulated that all the Louisiana Purchase territory north of the southern boundary of Missouri, except Missouri, would be free, and the territory below that line would be slave

You are kind of confusing a few things by wrapping unrelated events together.  There were people in free areas as well as slave states that pushed for Manifest Destiny.  If you wish to apply that term to what you perceive to be current American foreign policy, well I guess you can (irrational as it may be).

Well, you just mention England and Germany…those are not countries which were oppressed, those are not countries that see ppl dying of hunger or cold everyday.

I never said that Germany and England were oppressed; I mentioned them in response to your comment about racism in this country.  I said that minorities in those two countries do not appear to have the same opportunities as minorities in the USA.  There are millions of Blacks in England and millions of Turks in Germany.  Name me a corporate CEO or a 4-star general or prominent politician who is in the minority in either of those countries.

On your other statements, I just don’t know what to say.  Comparing us to the Spanish Empire?  Cuba?  The island of Cuba was of no national interest to us.  When the Soviets decided to park nuclear missiles there (less than 100 miles away from Florida!) that did catch our interest.  Poor little Cuba…all they wanted to do was have the potential to kill 50 million Americans and look what we did to them .  How unfair; what terrible people we are :(!  What would your country do if Uruguay decided to park nuclear weapons within range of Buenos Aires:? 

And you write just fine…I just wonder if you get the underlying point I’m trying to make.  I’m not saying America is some pristine place, “a city on the hill” as you said earlier.  There are enough “skeletons” in our national “closet” to fill a million graveyards.  I just say that when compared to other major powers throughout history, no reasonable person can say America acted anywhere near as treacherously as the Europeans or the Asians for that matter.

I liked your comment about the Declaration of Independence “all men are created equal”, but I wouldn’t call it irony…hypocrisy is a much better term!

You’re confusing things also just to try to convice everybody of your argument.
Just lemme put some things clear:
Missouri Compromise, I’m with you on the issue that it was a parity between the number of slave states and the number of free states, it was drafted, however, due to territorial expansion, which is what I’m talking about when saying that the U.S. behaves (and is) an Empire of the 21st century.
Btw, you can talk to current left LIBERAL historians and ask them whether applying manifest destiny today is irrational or not, just go and ask them if you cannot relate things.
If we are going to talk about racism...well, that’s an issue...you are really saying that the US is behaving quite good about that?
Because the WASP do really still have an issue on black people (and on any minority, but especially on black people).
You’re talking about a nation that had no social system till the 30’s....you’re leaving behind many, MANY things.
You’re living on the ideal of the american dream where everybody is succesful if they work hard and blah blah blah, well...lemme tell you that is not exactly like that.
You have lots of flaws in your social system...and it’s kinda funny when you get discriminated ppl that discriminate other minorities...I’ve seen it thousands of times in the US.

For the record last night I was watching TV here and the reporter was an argentinian who travelled to NY after the blackout...and he was on the streets showing some t-shirts which said: “I survived the black out” which some black guys were selling on the streets.
Those black guys said to him: “do not film if you won’t buy anything”, the reporter said “I cannot buy anything, I have no money, I’m from argentina”, the response was: “well, if you got no money get out of america”

and you’re not racist!

That’s the message we all get outside america, and trust me, there’s no resentment...I admire a lot of things in your system, but foreing policy and the flaws in racism and that of imposing some kind of superiority...that’s something I cannot stand.

And just for you to know...America did have intentions on Cuba...during the end of the 19th century treaties were signed, and they forbade cuba to make any kind of treaties that could affect american interests....next step was annexation (as a commonwealth, of course), shame you had the depression in the 30’s and that ruined everything.
You lost an estrategical point.

And by the way, again the subject of nuclear weapons....which was the only nation to use them?
The Japanese people would feel very much hurt if they’d read your lines.

And America is acting exactly like the others empires before, but with economic power. We are all oppressed, ppl are dying because of capitalism and your policy of wealth concentrated in a few hands.
It’s exactly the same, we are not FREE...we depend on america, and the imf and all that fucking organizations that favor those who have a stake in society.

So the colonisation that america is doing since the end of the 19th century is not one based on complete territorial expansion like the former empires had done before, but one based on economic pressures...that’s why it is said that America is an empire in denial or an informal empire...but now with this significant colonisation of irak it’s turning into a formal empire...you just cannot tell me it is’nt imposing its rule on ppl who do not want you there.

And just for you to know, the spanish were a great empire...By whom was financed the “discovery” of america?

Think, think...the anglo-saxons were not the only ones who populated the world.

This is an amusing argument.  I hope Les doesn’t pay for storage space by the byte!

Btw, you can talk to current left LIBERAL historians and ask them whether applying manifest destiny today is irrational or not, just go and ask them if you cannot relate things.

I absolutely believe that if I asked a left liberal historian he may tell me what you suggest.  I would also think that if I asked the Ku Klux Klan what they thought about Blacks, they might give me an equally “interesting answer”...and then hang me from a tree

If we are going to talk about racism…well, that’s an issue…you are really saying that the US is behaving quite good about that?  Because the WASP do really still have an issue on black people (and on any minority, but especially on black people).

Yes I had heard a rumor that there were people that don’t care for Blacks .  I think it’s a pretty huge overgeneralization though to say that all White Anglo Saxon Protestants don’t like Blacks.  I’ve had dozens of “WASP” friends and either they are the best actors in the history of the world or they are genuinely decent people.  Any of you racists WASPs want to chime in here?

And by the way, again the subject of nuclear weapons….which was the only nation to use them?The Japanese people would feel very much hurt if they’d read your lines.

I posted a pretty detailed rationale for the use of atomic weapons in WWII up in a higher thread on this page.  Since it happened before I was born, I don’t really feel that it’s my place to apologize for it.  I surely wouldn’t want to hurt the Japanese people’s feelings over WWII.  However, considering that they killed several million Chinese and used others for biological weapons experiments during their little “excursions”, I would think they are probably pretty “thick-skinned”.  It’s not discussed often, but the Japanese were not far behind the Germans in their brutality towards “inferior races”.

And America is acting exactly like the others empires before, but with economic power

So we are just like every other empire in history except totally different :? :?  How does one establish an empire without economic power?  Now I am quite confused.  That’s like saying a motorcycle is exactly like an airplane except a motorcycle can’t fly, can’t go 2,000 miles per hour, can’t carry hundreds of people…etc., etc.  Though they are both modes of transport, it appears there are many differences between the two.

Hey go ahead and blame all your problems on America…we can take it!  Of course your politicians and media would blame us and the IMF for your economic problems.  Scapegoating is one of the oldest political tricks in the book.  Of course no one in your country is responsible for the state of your economy…or are they?  Hopefully all of us nasty gringos get killed real soon to secure economic stability in your country .

I really like talking to you Ana; it is interesting to hear the opinions of people from different places.

Test, test, test

The preceding has been a test of the Stupid Evil Bastard Emergency Quoting System. Had this been an actual emergency the quote above would have contained essential information and pertinent content. This was only a test.