What is the strangest thing you believe to be true?

Posted by Spocko on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 at 06:47 AM. Read 4371 times. Tags:
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The guys at MemeTherapy have been running a series of interesting threads about Strange Beliefs over the last few weeks. It’s a fun read. I thought the kind folks here at the Bastard’s might like to give it a try.

Their question:
“What is the strangest thing you believe to be true?”

My response…

At first glance this question appears simple enough. I can think of many fascinating subjects I have read about over the years; nanotech, “gray goo”, 11-dimensional space, relativity, the possibility of time travel, quantum entanglement, wave particle duality, virtual reality. There flows a never ending stream of ideas that wells up from the spring that is the Mind of Man. I could have selected any item from this list, or more, and would have provided a reasonably interesting response. How does one choose from such a fantastical array of knowledge? Technology can indeed appear strange or magical to one unfamiliar with a particular field of study. Some feel that medical wonders, from stem-cell research and genetic engineering to face transplants, are the definition of the word “strange”. Others may perceive the political and ideological mindset of their “enemies” to be the pinnacle of the eldritch.

But to ask an atheist what he “believes” to be true introduces quite a different “texture” to the question posed. The meaning of the word “believe” may easily be misconstrued. I am often bewildered by the multiple usage of some words from the English language. To some, “belief” is only given to that which has overwhelming evidence to support it, such evidence that there is no point to even use the word “believe”. Does one say: “I believe the sky is blue”? No. We say: “The sky is blue”. We can test this statement through many types of observation, experimentation, and verification. We know the sky is blue. Some use the word “believe” in the same manner that they use the word “think”, e.g. “I believe I’ll have another beer!” - the two words are interchangeable here. Then we come, of course, to the most common meaning of the word “believe”, that equivalent to “faith”; acceptance of a proposition without any need, or desire, for supporting evidence whatsoever.

I avoid the use of the words “believe” and “belief” because of their imprecise usage. There are, however, certain words I’ll use in spite of their misuse. For example, I have no qualms stating that I’m an “atheist” even though that word has been intentionally misused and demonized, perhaps since its inception. An atheist is simply one who does not believe. To be an atheist one need only answer “no” to the question “Do you believe [in god(s)]?” No further assertion is made.

I prefer to use the verb “know” instead of “believe” and, like Great Lady Science, accept that knowledge can be transitory and must evolve as new evidence is discovered. Ironically, my answer to the question “What is the strangest thing you know to be true?” would bring me back to the issue of faith.

The strangest thing I know of is the ability of the human mind to accept the most incredible of statements by the simple application of the magic word “faith”. How is it that, in the 21st century, we still have people that believe the world is only 6000 years old in light of the evidence from various fields of science in support of its vastly older age? How can one ignore mounds of fossil evidence for the progression of evolution and only see the “gaps”. What is it that allows the brilliant scientist who, otherwise, demands empirical data to advance his theories, to assert that there is a god when no one has presented any evidence to corroborate the existence of said deity? Is it a mental blind spot, a type of intellectual laziness used to avoid investigating fully the reason one believes one fable over another?

This strange thing called faith intrigues me. I have studied several of the mythologies of various civilizations throughout history and I find the subject fascinating. The majority of us appear to be so desperate for answers that we will accept any concept of reality that we are subjected to at an early age. We indoctrinate our children into a system of thought handed down by our progenitors and our children will usually teach their own children the same vision; the meme propagates. The evolution of religion presents the prime example of this strange ability to close the mind to healthy skepticism and reason. I wonder if we have herein evidence for the existence of a parasitic meme, one that propagates from the pulpit and lives in symbiosis with those that hunger for its anesthetic affects.

I look forward to a future where such strange ideas as faith and belief have faded into obscurity and disrepute as have the gods of old. A future where the unknown is regarded as an opportunity, not an enemy to be feared and obscured by the blinders of myth.

What’s the strangest thing you “believe”?

Comments:

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Patness Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 03:23 AM

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GR - ... man, you post a lot. raspberry

Also, I’m not a scientist. So, while I’m sympathetic to the many conspiracy theories of 9-11, my ability to evaluate them is slim at best.

My reason for standing on the fence about the issue is simple - regardless of what they knew, whether they knew or not, they are politicians. They will exploit it to the best of their ability and they did. They still are. They had the methods, the motivation, and the historical backdrop that such an event would pay out.

It is my personal belief that certain members of government new about the attack beforehand. However, that belief is ineffectual - far more people are being killed now, and they would have been killed regardless of whether the attack was honest oversight or not.

But I will take the time to watch it - perhaps tomorrow evening, after dinner with my brother.

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Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 04:00 AM

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Patness - Fair enough, and I appreciate any effort you make to do it.

I should have mentioned that you do not have to be a scientest to evaluate the video. For example, they make reference to the melting point of steel and list it, there are tons of manuals and books that you or anyone could peronally look up regarding steel and its melting point. All of the basic science principles that the host and the many scientists and demolition experts refer can be verified quite easily just using the internet or library books (should you prefer).

I hope you don’t take this as too forward, but based on the posts I’ve read of yours since I started browsing the website, yours have stuck out the most of everyone (so far). You’re an extremely bright young man and...when I posted this challenge, you were definately one of the people I hoped would take it. I mean this sincerely and...regardless of whether it’s tomorrow or some day in the future, it would please me quite a bit if you did find the time.

Thanks mate!

Bryce/Godless Raven

(p.s. - In regards to the comment about how I post a lot...yeah, guilty as charged. I’m wordy when I do it too sometimes. Bear with me. smile )

zilch Austria Posted on 09/29/2006 at 04:07 AM

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Raven- I don’t have time at the moment to watch the “9/11 mysteries” video, but I did watch the short one of the fireman.  What does it show?  A fireman, somewhere, sometime, saying “there’s a bomb in the building- start clearing out”.  So what?  If that’s “evidence” for an inside job, then my grandmother is the Mayor of Chicago.

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Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 08:44 AM

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then my grandmother is the Mayor of Chicago.

HOLY SHIT!!!  Your grandmother is the mayor of Chicago.  Dude I live near Chicago can she hook a brother up?

Godless Raven; you might not want to get into this here.  You won’t find a lot of believers or sympathizers.

Webs: I no longer believe in stupid conspiracy theory bullshit cause after hoping over to this site I realized it was a waste of time and energy.  The irrational idea of the conspiracy theory seemed enticing at first because it attempts to explain the, well what seems to be, unexplainable of a really emotional event.  But in all actuality it is stupid, irrational, and really a slap in the face to those affected by the event the conspiracy theory attempts to explain.

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LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 09/29/2006 at 08:57 AM

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I just watched the video you asked us to watch.
It’s a bit over 1.5 hours.
It was riveting stuff and the fact that it was an inside job looks like, on the evidence and how it was presented, a fairly safe bet.
But who did it?
I read a fairly convincing report some time ago suggesting the Zionists were responsible and the Saudis were willing participants in a game they knew little about.
Anything’s possible, I suppose.
I think if anyone other than the Saudi hijackers was responsible for 911 it was most likely the bloke who took over the leases on the two white elephants, spent 15 million on insuring them and picked up 6 billion. Not a bad day’s work, A?
There’s much metaphysical speculation about the Ifs, Whats, Hows and Whys, etc..
Educated, demented, fanatical, camel-jockey don’t make nearly as interesting villains as American high-flyers or The Mossad.
It could even be interesting to do some research to see if there’ve been mystery deaths or disappearances of demolition experts or teams around the country.
I’m still waiting for the truth about Kennedy’s assassination.  wink

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Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 09:01 AM

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Hey Zilch,

Well, thank you for at least checking out that video. No, it is not evidence of anything other than a fire man, at ground zero, stating that everybody needed to get out of the base of the building because there was a bomb in it. It’s about one of over 50 video and audio clips of firemen stating that there bombs going off in the lower portins fo the building. But...all that video was, is what it is...a video showing you a fire man telling people there was a bomb in the building. I guess that’s insignificant to you. To me, it means that that fireman believed there was a bomb in the building (if you notice whats going on in the background, that was AFTER the planes had hit the towers).

So it depends on what you think the significance of that is. If he was correct, than it means the buildings had bombs in them as well as the plane attack. If you can explain how those 19 terrorists managed to get in to the WTC’s and plant bombs previous to the plane attack, I’d like you to explain the logistics behind that. And if you can’t, then what is your alternate theory?

Anyway, that video was meant to be just what it is. I didn’t ask you or anyone else to make a total theory of 911 based on it. It just is significant in its own way.

Please believe me my friend. I’m not looking to convert anyone in to hysterical Alex Jones. I’m not asking ANYBODY to make any leaps of faith. Not in anyway. All I am asking is if the intellectuals that post on this website are willing to watch the longer video I posted, which is almost exclusively science. It has none of the loonier conspiracy nutbar theories. And if anything, someone like yourself who clearly is incredibly skeptical to...you know...prove it wrong and just demonstrate how. I am a huge skeptic about many, many things.

I think most “conspiracys” are wacky non-truths. This has nothing to do with a conspiracy. I’m not interested in crazy people that claim planes were firing missles, or remote controlled planes, or no passengers. Some of that stuff could maybe be true (?) but there is no evidence to believe so, so I do not. What I do believe is what I know to be scientifically a fact. The video I posted has a ton of those. The experts speaking on the film can speak for themselves, as can all of you.

Believe me, if the intellectuals on this website can prove any or all of the claims false, I’m more than willing to listen. But in the same way, I want to hear the science debated with factual science. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have no alterior motive. I am just a man who believes in truth, whatever it may be.

The video I posted is about as honest and verifiable as anything I’ve seen. It’s not like the conspiracy videos circulating the net. However, that’s not for me to decide, that’s my opinion.

Also, if you are too emotional to watch the video with your brain, rather than your emotions, I do not recommend taking this challenge. I can totally understand that too, and I do not look down on anyone who cannot. I am also a very caring person and anything to do with 911 is always going to pull strings in people.

So again, if you aren’t interested in the challenge, please do not take it. It was posted in a respectful manner in a sincere way.

If however, you are...please do and lets debate nothing but facts. No loopy conspiracys that one way or another cannot be proven.

Peace & regards,

Godless Raven/Bryce

Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 09:09 AM

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“You won’t find a lot of believers or sympathizers.”

Thanks for having a very strong preconceived notion of what not only you, but what others will think. Nothing like free thinking! smile

If you think I’m looking for “sympathizers” then you clearly didn’t read what I’m writing and have a completely misguided idea about who I am and what I am about. You also haven’t paid attention what it is I am actually challenging. But that’s fine. As far as the comment about “believers”, don’t you think that’s a bit premature, considering you yourself just admitted you haven’t even watched the video and either has anybody else had the chance to?

Wow...now that is very interesting considering that all I did was ask for the science of the events to be evaluated by free thinkers. Your comment is very revealing, and I guess all I can hope is that others are not so dismissive and conclusive (without even a minimal look at the evidence I am asking to be debated!)

Did I say that the video had anything to do with 911 being an inside job, or that 911 being an inside job was what I wanted to discuss? If I did...please show me where? You are reading your own bias in to my words based on...whatever it is you based it on. Did I say anything about conclusions? Again...I said that I respected the intellect of this community, and that I wanted you to watch a video unlike any conspiracy video currently out there. One that deals with facts of science. And that I wanted to discuss it afterwards (does this sound like I’m some zealot trying to “convert” people?).

Anyway, perhaps this challenge isn’t for you, because I’m starting to get offended by your pretext and assumptions. They have nothing to do with anything I’ve said or asked. Feel free not to participate. I assure you I will not be offended.

Thank-you

Godless Raven

Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 09:10 AM

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Godless Raven, quick question: Is there any way to prove or disprove if the one of the fireman talking about a bomb in the building was from the first WTC attack or the most recent one?

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Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 09:19 AM

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Hey John,

Thank you sir for taking the time to review the video.

Now, I’m not here to make conclusions about who did it or why. Not at this point, and it’s not what I’m prepared to openly opinion on (not yet). I don’t think we have enough evidence to do that, yet. But as you could see from that video, all of the science behind 911 as per that video points to the scientific fact that those planes didn’t take those buildings down. That is what I’d like to debate. If anybody can come up with any logical science to refute that claim, I am very interested in hearing it. I think it’s important to hear what the counter is, because I’ve studied science, and I went back and brushed up on some things as well to make sure the claims were 100% factually true. I couldn’t disprove them. It’s sound science. That doesn’t mean any of you can’t. I’m sort of hoping that some of you can. Because the more inaccurate stuff that’s thrown out, the better. I only want to know the 100% facts about that day. Nothing hokey.

I can understand completely why you would want to jump to the next logical question(s), and we can later, but at this point it’s all speculative and there isn’t enough evidence. So lets just stick to the evidence and discuss. I don’t want it to turn in to a big fight based on emotion. Just analytical views of what the science in the video implies.

I’ve researched the science and I’ve done my best to verify the claims. They all check out. Lets discuss them. If there are any that are incorrect, we can disguard them. When we are left, if there is still a preponderance of evidence pointing towards the thesis of the film, then we can go from there. If it’s completely disproved, then lets do that. I personally have not been able to refute the film, and that’s where I stand at this point.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Peace,

GR/Bryce

Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 10:01 AM

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Webs - Yes. smile

I’ll do it when I get home. I could get 76ed if I got caught looking at that video in the financial building I work in.

Just off of the top of my head, some things that could prove it are a) identifying the firemen in the video and verifying whether they were at both, or either of those locations. That could potentially clarify it. b) other give aways in the video (if you are not at work, perhaps you could look closely in the video and see for yourself) c) if there is clearly already destruction all around and people scattering...do you think that would apply to the first WTC bombing? That after the event a fire man would be announcing there was a bomb in the building? We’re talking about an event that had multiple explosions and one that did not. Maybe re-examine the video and see if that part is conclusive (as I said, I’m at work and cannot, but it’s just an idea of something you might look at). d) Those bombing took place under completely different weather conditions. Review video of both events and look at the back ground of the video clip. See if you can tell a clear difference in the brightness of the sky and area. If I recall (and I can’t verify until I get home) the atmosphere was very different). e) I’d say the reporter that asks him twice “what did you say?” “did you say there was a bomb?” could be identified, and I’ll try do that when I get home. I don’t think it will be hard to do.

Those are just some random tips off of the top of my head. I’ll look in to it further tonight.

Fair question though.

Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 10:41 AM

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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928

There was more to the clip apparently. (I can’t view the video at work, but based on the synopsis, this is what is said: (part of it is from the small clip I posted)

Fireman: “There’s a bomb in the building!”

Fireman: “Here we go again”

Fireman: “There’s a bomb in the building, start clearing out.”

Bystander: “Sorry? Did you say there was a bomb? What did you say?”

Fireman: “Bomb in the building! Start clearing out!”

Fireman: “We gotta get the ###### outta here!”

Fireman “There’s a secondary device in the building!”

Fireman: “We got a secondary device!”

Fireman: “Got a secondary device in the building!”

Fireman: “Secondary device!”

Les United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 10:56 AM

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GR, Webs told you were unlikely to find too many people here who are “believers or sympathizers” because he’s speaking from personal experience so try not to be too rough on him. We’ve been over the topic before in this thread and Webs is right that quite a few of us here reject the various conspiracy theories.

I’m at work at the moment and can’t watch the video you asked us to watch, but I’ll see if I can’t find time to do so this evening. I think I’ve seen it before because a number of people have sent it to me, but then I get asked to watch a lot of videos about various conspiracy theories so this one may be new to me.

As for the fireman clip, considering the chaos of the situation and the rather piss-poor communication taking place it shouldn’t be that big of a surprise. When the second plane hit the tower it was clear to everyone present this wasn’t an accident, but a terrorist attack. What are terrorists best known for? Bombs. All it would take is one small miscommunication to result in what you saw in that clip.

Perhaps someone did see something they believed to be a bomb, but that doesn’t prove that it definitely was a bomb. If it was so obvious at that point in time why didn’t anyone notice it before?

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Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:09 AM

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Well unfortunately I wasted an hour of my life that I would like back watching the stupid fucking video GR linked above.  In the effort to save the rest of you from wasting the hour (including you Les) here is my synopsis.

Ok, so what do we have here:

1.  No steel structure before has ever collapsed—heard this one before, who hasn’t?
2.  North tower burned for 3 hours with no collapse in 1975—Well obviously it didn’t burn under the same circumstances… like say a fucking plane hitting it first.
3.  Windsor tower in Madrid burned 20 hours—this building was constructed entirely differently had different things inside, and had a different steel structure.  It also didn’t get hit by a fucking plane.
4.  Hmm… people in the building don’t remember any heat—well this is a sure fire chalk one up for the conspirator right?  Oh wait, we are talking about someone’s memory… shit!
5.  Sounded like gun fire, like explosion—You mean when the building fell, well shit son there is floor after floor landing on floor after floor.  What do you expect?
6.  Listen for the the explosion…—what a load of shit this is.  There are so many factors going on here.  There could have been a truck carrying something in the background that fell, or all kinds of other shit.  Fuck that.
7.  Steel melts at 2750 degrees
8.  Red orange flames are about 1275 degrees
9.  Steel on stoves, pots and pans don’t melt
10. Floor heater generates 1800 degrees and yet surrounding steel doesn’t melt—come on, floor heaters are created to dissipate heat quickly.  Not to burn in a confined space like an office fire.  The heat has no where to go in the WTC fires but to the steel.  In a floor heater, the heat can go wherever the fuck it wants.
11. What a falling building looks like—different construction.
12. What a demo looks like—Will that’s it, I give up.  Can’t argue this one.  Oh wait, that might be a coincidence… shit!
13. From the movie: “Would fire hurl metal and concrete sideways into the air?”—What a bunch of morons.  No fire wouldn’t hurl metal and concrete sideways, but the force of a fucking floor falling on another would.  That is a lot of weight coming down really fast.
14. Small bone fragments on bank building—who the fuck knows, but don’t try to explain the millions of things this could be to a believer.
15. Top of building disintegrates—Well actually we never really see this happen, we see the top fall over and into a cloud of rubble and smoke.  We just have to willingly accept the bitch that is narrating.  Him, willingly accept what we are told…
16. Right before the 25min marker we see a video showing the first collapse.  If you look in the background, you can see a fire is burning clearly, and no sign of smoke is showing.  A little different then the story we were told earlier by the video that the fire is an oxygen starved fire.
17. Anybody who quotes Eric Hufschmid is the looniest mother fucker I hope to never meet.
18. And why is he shown as a metal-cutting expert.  He is a software engineer, that found a way to make money.  Selling a book that poses bullshit questions to people looking for answers.
19. In order for a floor to fall down all the joints have to break simultaneously.  Does Eric understand anything relating to physics and weight distribution.  Oh wait, no he’s a software engineer.

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Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:11 AM

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(Continued)
20. Where are the pancaked floors?  Why do we just see rubble?  Well in the example shown in the film we see a 5 or 6 floor building with not nearly as much weight as either WTC tower.  Give me a break video producer.
21. The pancake diagram is making a lot of assumptions that are just not true in this case.  They exclude so many factors, I don’t know how this can be used in anyway as evidence.
22. Glass blown out in lobby.  Well a plane did hit the towers which had a steel frame.  Anyone that has ever used a pitch for, knows how fast and forceful sound travels across metal.
23. 28 minutes into this conspiracy shit and just like every other one, there are so many quotes taken out of context.  Which is a common tactic of the conspiracy nut, they take peoples quotes and sayings and use them for their own advantage.
24. Heard a sound under his feet—you mean like maybe the vibration of a fucking airplane hitting the building.
25. Hmm… man in basement blown to floor…—look at the previous number.
26. Explosions going off throughout the building
27. Explosion before building fell
28. Squibs—all of these are just disparate facts.  When you know the plane has been hit by a plane, emotions and all kinds of shit are going on in your head.  Suddenly a door slamming somewhere is a terrorist attacking you.  Give me a break.
29. Squibs at lower portion of building as it falls—wouldn’t this be expected when something this heavy falls on top of itself.
30. Sky lobby squibs—which are below where the planes hit look above for this one.
31. Steven Jones.  This guy is actually known amongst all conspiracists for his bullshit explanations of thermite being used.
32. Guliani: “Set up head quarters right there, when we told the world trade center was going to collapse.” So you mean to tell me that the firefighters must have thought that the building was going to come down, which was actually relayed to them by firefighters in the building.  Who does this surprise?
33. WTC building 7—not proof.
34. So now one of Bush’s relatives and a cousin were working for Securacom and they got a contract for $8.3 million.  And there was a long a waited plan, before Bush was in office, while Clinton was in charge, While Guiliani was Mayor.  And they kept it a secret how?  Bush can’t even keep choking on a pretzel secret.  I have choked on shit countless numbers of times, and no one knows.
35. Power down for the whole weekend before 9/11.—another disparate fact, not proof.
36. Cables were run.  Strange workers were seen.  Video cameras were shut down.  This is not from security guards, but from 3rd hand accounts.—not proof.  I have actually installed cabling before as an IT drone for a community college.  People looked my friend and I weird, those that didn’t know us.  And plenty of people bugged us and watched us to see what we were doing.  The guy speaking is just trying to put disparate facts together.
37. Now 9/11 gave city planners an excuse from not having to pay for asbestos clean up.  107 minutes.—what a point to make here.  Yea I bet the city planners threw a party when the towers came down huh.
37. Asbestos and Steel:
38. UL tests steel
39. Plane would not dislodge asbestos?  WTF?—obviously the producer(s) of the film have no first hand experience of asbestos.  When I was running the cables, as I previously mentioned, I was working with asbestos.  And you know what, all you have to do is brush up against it with your shoulder as your crawling past it and the stuff comes right down.  And guess what else, I was working with asbestos in 2002, about 9 months after 9/11, and the asbestos installed in the building was done in about 1965.  So it was just about as old.  Don’t give me some bullshit about how a plane can’t knock off asbestos.
40. Hmm… work going on on an empty floor.  Why is that odd?
41. Hmm… so how at 122 minutes did they have a video camera in there.  Oh they didn’t.  Those images were rendered to make you visualize what they are saying.  Yup another common tactic of the conspiracy film.
42. Ok at 125 minutes.  I wanted to puke.  Fuck these assholes and the maker of the video.  Playing the audio of the guy trapped in the tower, up to the point the tower collapsed.  That was sickening and completely unnecessary.
43. Gotta love the point they make at 127 minutes: “Ask Questions.  Think for yourself.” Right… so after a 127 minutes of this a weak minded individual is going to start prying and asking questions?  What a bunch of shit!!  You have got to be kidding me.

This is no different than any other conspiracy films.  All of them are well produced to give the idea that they are just posing questions, and asking you to think for yourself.  When in all actuality they are trying to indoctrinate what they perceive to have happened.  Don’t believe me.  Check out the phrasing in the post script.  “World Trade Center Demolition”.  That is unbiased.  Fuck that.  The way I see it, the creator of this piece of shit can go to hell with all the others.

Take it from me GR.  Don’t waste our time and energy it is not worth it.  Go work harder at work and get a raise or go read a book or teach a class for the community.  Anything then fall into this stupid shit.

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Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:14 AM

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Fair enough Les.

In regards to his comments...sorry but...he made a conclusion about something he hadn’t even viewed. I’d like to think that based on what I’ve read on this website, none of you are that close minded. Again, I reiterate...I do not want to debate any conspiracy theories. This isn’t a conspiracy theory I want to discuss with anyone. I want the exact science of 911 discussed and only with our brains. Not our hearts. Very, very difficult to do, but I can do it. I’m betting so can you.

I see a problem here already, people want to lump this video in with Loose Change and others like it. Well, it’s not like it. And if you’ve seen it before then I ask you watch it again. I am only interested in debating things that can be proven as facts. The physics and chemistry of the events.

Now...if after watching the video, anybody says “ahhh this is bull$hit” without having any factual reason to refute the science, then...they aren’t using their brains, just their emotions. If however, they can refute the claims with facts and knowledge, I am very open to hearing it and doing more investigation.

Les, I’m not here to stir $hit, or get anybody upset. I’m here because just like with evolution, and everything else in life, I like to know the truth. Even when it’s not nice.

I’m not here to debate who did what. Not yet. Because it can’t be proven and it’s just not factual until more evidence is available.

What I would definately like to talk about with very intelligent people is...the science and facts about 911. Because the video I posted makes some very imperical claims that I happen to agree with, or at least cannot prove to be untrue. And if they are correct, there is no way planes took down those buildings. Now, what that implies is a far deeper problem, you know what I mean. But I’m not even interested in talking about that. It’s subject to far too much speculation and I’m not interested in being labelled a “conspiracy nut”.

I think you and I can agree that the laws of physics and chemistry are not conspiracies. Something either falls under them or...it is not a fact. So, please, yes, if you do get a chance this evening, or whenever (no time limit, at your leisure) do watch this video, and by all means, prove it wrong.

Perhaps my education was faulty and I’m misunderstanding something. If so, I’ll sue my professors! smile But I have a pretty solid grasp of physics, chemistry and biology and...this video seems 100% accurate to me.

Please, lets discuss.

I have no ill will towards anyone who doubts conspiracys. I do have a problem with someone who makes a blanket statement about factual evidence “just because” though. That’s no different than a Christian saying they do not believe in evolution because “Jesus weren’t no monkey!” smile

Anyway, clearly there is going to be some hostility over this, and that’s fine. But I can only say this over and over, I’m not here to debate who commited the henous crime, just how it was caused.

Thanks

Bryce/Godless Raven

Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:19 AM

Webs pic

I meant at the end: “Don’t waste your time and energy” I knew I was going to have a typo there.  Always at the end. confused

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Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:25 AM

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Les, you still expect me to back off and respect this $hit?

Webs, you are an rude idiot.

You completely disregarded everything I asked for and said and you are very nervy to go and tell people not to even watch this video for themselves. I can’t even believe that. Your ignorance is mindboggling. If refuting science is saying “fuck” every sentence, then I guess you have? Wow...I clearly made a mistake about the regulars on this website if you are a representative of the greater whole.

You completely missed the point of the scientific evidence and you seem to believe that anger refutes facts.

If you were in anyway a sound minded person, you wouldn’t be so ignorant as to tell everyone not to watch the video and make up THEIR minds for them.

Your logic based on science is as shoddy as the research on the “hitler diaries”.

Is this the intellectually honest discussion I was asking for?

I recall something about civility. You clearly are incapable.

If the rest of you react like this...fck it. I can’t recall the last time I’ve been treated so ignorantly.

Evidently the entire website isn’t filled with intellectuals.

Man, I’ve gotta step away, because you have really offended me and what I tried to accomplish in a very decent peaceful manner. Not to mention your attempt to dismiss scientific facts with ignorance and trying to undermine the entire thing by telling other people what to think.

Maybe I’ll come by later. I’ll have to think about it.

You sir, are a real dickhead.

GR

Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:28 AM

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“Go work harder at work and get a raise or go read a book or teach a class for the community.  Anything then fall into this stupid shit.”

Fucking ignorant asshole.

I’m more than willing to match my credentials against yours on ANY day of the week. You are so direspectful that you aren’t worth speaking to you ignorant POS.

I am completely embarassed that I just recommended this website to 4 of my very intelligent well meaning atheist friends. If I had known…

Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:29 AM

Webs pic

GR did you produce this video?  My anger was not pointed at you but the producers of the film.  I think they are an asshole.  I think you are misguided to accept everything they say as fact.  The only thing I directed at you was:

Take it from me GR.  Don’t waste our time and energy it is not worth it.  Go work harder at work and get a raise or go read a book or teach a class for the community.  Anything then fall into this stupid shit.

IF that make me a dickhead… well don’t call me Webs anymore people, call me dickhead.

Oh by the way, I await your repsonse to the items that show my research of the film uses shoddy “Hitler” science.

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Consigliere United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:46 AM

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Evidently the entire website isn’t filled with intellectuals

Whoever said it was?  I certainly am not an “intellectual.” Just an average Joe so to speak.

Fucking ignorant asshole.

I’m more than willing to match my credentials against yours on ANY day of the week. You are so direspectful that you aren’t worth speaking to you ignorant POS.

Playing this version of my pecker is bigger than your pecker with some of us here, you will come up short.  I can assure you that much.

I don’t agree with with Webs all that much.  We often clash.  Yet the above is simply rude.  It is apparent that you are so emotionally invested in your pet topic that any critique that differs puts you into a tizzy.  Take a chill pill or move on.  In either event, stop trash talking Webs.  It only makes you look like an idiot.

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Consigliere United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:50 AM

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Webs:

I meant to say it in the other post, but you shouldn’t flame these folks.  However, in the event that you do, make sure you do the job right.  Nice job.

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To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:54 AM

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1.  No steel structure before has ever collapsed—heard this one before, who hasn’t?

“Who hasn’t?” Brilliant arguement to the fact that a steel building has never burned down to the ground. Brilliant. “Who hasn’t heard this before?” Is a very solid way to refute a fact that is INCREDIBLY important.

North tower burned for 3 hours with no collapse in 1975—Well obviously it didn’t burn under the same circumstances… like say a fucking plane hitting it first

Talk about ignorant conspiracies. There have been buildings hit by planes before. And none of them collapsed. You completely ignored 20 minutes of video explaining exactly how the towers were made, and specifically to withstand an attack of a hurricane or plane. Just because YOU can’t imagine the destruction a plane would actually cause, doesn’t mean that ignorance equals a plane can therefor take down the towers. Is this science? Because you can’t personally think of a case similar, then science becomes moot? How ignorant. I asked for a debate about the scientific claims. Not ignorance. I can find that anywhere.

3.  Windsor tower in Madrid burned 20 hours—this building was constructed entirely differently had different things inside, and had a different steel structure.  It also didn’t get hit by a fucking plane.

Apparently you are missing something VERY big here. The official story is that fire took the buildings down. Not the planes. Because they know damn well (as proved in this video with science) that those planes couldn’t do it. Even they weren’t ignorant enough to try pull that one off. They said it was fire. Where is your science or rational thought?

4.  Hmm… people in the building don’t remember any heat—well this is a sure fire chalk one up for the conspirator right?  Oh wait, we are talking about someone’s memory… shit!

You just said something so intellectually dishonest it’s appauling. I’d like anyone to watch this video and match up what you just said and see if it even makes any sense. Those people were in the stairwells of a building that the 911 commission claims was such a ball of fire that all of the metal melted and collapsed. They were waving out of the hole from the plane and windows in a heat greater than the melting point of metal? Tell me your science to explain that without swearing like an ignorant mental case. You make no sense whatsoever. If the fire was so hot, and spreading from floor to floor, then you explain why those people coming down the stairs (some from the floor that was HIT) didn’t feel any heat outside of the two small fires caused by the plane? Science. Logic. Brains. No emotions clouding them. That’s what I asked for. You are completely incapable and unqualified.

5.  Sounded like gun fire, like explosion—You mean when the building fell, well shit son there is floor after floor landing on floor after floor.  What do you expect?

Man...this is just...ughh...again, either you are completely disingenous, or you are a total numbskull. They say that they heard popping noises like controlled demolition. Crackling, popping noises. BEFORE the towers came down. They even say “and then the towers came down”. Not one witness, dozens. Some inside the building. Some fire fighters. Some in the stairs. Some from outside. Some from other buildings. You dismiss this with “You mean when the building fell?” Which is completely dishonest. Did you watch this film with the sound on? Your conclusions were formed without paying any attention. Clearly. You have no science. Just your pent up emotions. You are ignorant. You are clearly NOT the type of person I was looking for to view this video when I said intelligent, decent persons.

Do I need to continue with your rant? Because it’s the same thing over and over. Ignorance. Complete disregard for everything said in the video. Vulgarities. Emotions minus brains.

You have really insulted me and quite frankly you are a disgrace to the notion of “truth” and “Science”.

To try block other people from viewing the science of that day because you are an emotional tornado is just...sick.

I’m out of here.

Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 11:56 AM

Webs pic

GR I think we have gotten off on the wrong foot.  Let me explain:
You came in here stating you wish to have an intellectual conversation on a topic: 9/11.  To which no one has denied you.  You linked to a couple videos, which I must admit I have never seen before.  I told you from the get go you would not get much sympathy on this topic from people here cause we have all been through it before.  I was trying to save you from exactly what you are going through now.  Why?

Because I have already been through it.  My review of the movie is geared not toward you being the asshole, I have no dislike for you at all, but rather toward the movie, because it is the same thing I have seen a dozen times.  The movie is selling conspiracy theory.  THAT IS A FACT MATE! It is just like all the others, and believe me I have seen them all.  Even watching this one it brought up the same emotions as the rest did.

I started watching it and starting to formulate the same questions I did before.  But I stopped.  Reason being, it is all the same crap.  They all have the same structure, the same mild-mannered voice over for the narrative, and the same enticing them.  Maybe the government did it. Or whoever.  Point being, it is a waste of time and energy to buy into it.  Which is why I told you to go read a book etc… Not because I am a condescending ass.

If you don’t take my advice I really don’t give a shit.  If you want to be friends I don’t give a shit, but don’t claim I am bringing all kinds of emotions into this and other bullshit when clearly such a thing is true for you.  Remember I was bashing the video not you.

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Godless Raven Canada Posted on 09/29/2006 at 12:03 PM

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Cons? Oh yes...the buddy system.

This is just a disgrace. Anybody who reads all of my posts on this topic on here can clearly see what I tried to do, and I was met with pure ignorance. You ignore the way he completely direspected me and attack my response? Screw that. I treat people the way they treat me.

Dick wagging contest? Ughhh...yes. I’m very intimidated now. My comment was in response to his telling me to go read a book. If this is how you guys treat science and facts, then I don’t think I need to get in to any wagging contests with any of you. Such an ignorant disregard for a simple request to review scientific facts will cancel out credentials any day of the week.

You could be Richard Feynman, and if you treat people and information the way I and it was just treated, you’d be completely useless to any notion of a reasonable discussion/debate.

Applauding him for flaming me? You’re no better.

If you are under the impression I’m here to getbullied by anyone...you’ve gone and mistaken me for some whole other person.

This is such an embarassing manipulation of what should have been a decent conversation. What didn’t require the disrespect I was treated with.

YOu guys can wag your dicks amoungst yourselves if that is how you treat scientific inquiry.

Webs United States Posted on 09/29/2006 at 12:07 PM

Webs pic

Apparently you are missing something VERY big here. The official story is that fire took the buildings down. Not the planes. Because they know damn well (as proved in this video with science) that those planes couldn’t do it. Even they weren’t ignorant enough to try pull that one off. They said it was fire. Where is your science or rational thought?

My point was that in the WTC buildings the crash of the planes would have knocked off the asbestos exposing the steel to the fire.  In Madrid the steel was not opening exposed right away.  Different building, scenario, etc…

Those people were in the stairwells of a building that the 911 commission claims was such a ball of fire that all of the metal melted and collapsed.

Melted… who claimed that?  From what I heard the official claims are that the structural integrity of the steel was degraded by the fire.  Not that it was melted.

You have really insulted me and quite frankly you are a disgrace to the notion of “truth” and “Science”.

LOL

because you are an emotional tornado is just...sick.

LOL

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