What America can learn from its atheists.

Posted by Les on Monday, April 05, 2004 at 12:18 PM. Read 993 times. Tags:
{name} pic

One of the best essays I’ve read on the whole Pledge debate in general and the recent Supreme Court case in particular is from The New Republic Online titled Under God and Over. Leon Wieseltier does a great job of pointing out the ridiculousness of the government’s arguments for keeping the phrase ‘under God’ in the Pledge; that it’s essentially devoid of any religious meaning and is actually only a historical reference. He also points out how this attitude is actually hostile toward religion even though those who promote it like to think they’re being friends to religion in doing so. He touches on a lot of points that most atheists already have a pretty clear understanding of. In short, it’s a good read. I’m going to quote part of the last two paragraphs as they’re my favorite part.

There is no greater insult to religion than to expel strictness of thought from it. Yet such an expulsion is one of the traits of contemporary American religion, as the discussion at the Supreme Court demonstrated. Religion in America is more and more relaxed and “customized,“ a jolly affair of hallowed self-affirmation, a religion of a holy whatever. Speaking about God is prized over thinking about God. Say “under God” even if you don’t mean under God. And if you mean under God, don’t be tricked into giving an account of what you mean by it. Before too long you have arrived at a sacralized cynicism: In his intervention at the Court, Justice Stevens recalled a devastating point from the fascinating brief submitted in support of Newdow by 32 Christian and Jewish clergy, which asserted that “if the briefs of the school district and the United States are to be taken seriously,“ that is, if the words in the Pledge do not allude to God, “then every day they ask schoolchildren to violate [the] commandment” that “Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord in vain.“ Remember, those are not the Ten Suggestions. It is a very strange creed indeed that asks its votaries not to reflect too much about itself.

For this reason, American unbelief can perform a great quickening service to American belief. It can shake American religion loose from its cheerful indifference to the inquiry about truth. It can remind it that religion is not only a way of life but also a worldview. It can provoke it into remembering its reasons. For the argument that a reference to God is not a reference to God is a sign that American religion is forgetting its reasons. The need of so many American believers to have government endorse their belief is thoroughly abject. How strong, and how wise, is a faith that needs to see God’s name wherever it looks? (His name on nickels and dimes is rather damaging to His sublimity.)

Good stuff.

Comments:

Page 2 of 2 pages  <  1 2

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/09/2004 at 07:57 AM

elwedriddsche pic

Rationality logic is also plucked out of thin air of the mysterious left brain unless you know of some mechanism to describe the process.

If you don’t know the mechanism, you simply don’t know the mechanism. If you attribute either rational thought or intuition (however defined) to be plucked out of thin air, the burden of proof is on you grin

I have no reason to believe that intuition is anything more than the result of a pattern matching process. I admit that I’ve never given intuition much thought (harharhar), but have you ever tried to come up with an analogy to explain a more complex problem or done an impromptu whiteboard diagram?

Another experiment you can try is to start with the joke “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” and try to come up with different punch lines. Speaking for myself, I find it difficult to do so. Since the punch line is counter-intuitive, it takes effort to think up another one.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

GeekMom United States Posted on 04/09/2004 at 08:04 AM

GeekMom pic

The intuitive mind is capable of dealing in conceptual wholeness.It spies pattern or form,shapes in our visual field,sounds in our aural field,meaning in our linguistic field.
Intuitive understanding is indeed more of a feeling than a knowing,paying more attention to context than detail.It is an understanding that allways appears fuzzy at the edges because our rational mind can never analyse it with its logic.

See, this is where I disagree.  Just because it can deal in wholeness doesn’t mean it starts out there and can’t be returned to its component parts.  It’s only a “feeling” if you can’t understand it well enough to describe it.  Doesn’t mean NOBODY can.  If you treat intuition as something that can’t be analyzed, then you’ll never try, that’s all.

spacemonkey Great Britain (UK) Posted on 04/09/2004 at 09:07 AM

spacemonkey pic

If you don’t know the mechanism, you simply don’t know the mechanism. If you attribute either rational thought or intuition (however defined) to be plucked out of thin air, the burden of proof is on you
No proof is possible,all our philosophies,including scientific ones require at some point a leap of faith.
Geekmom
My experience of the colour green is not the same as a reductionist analysis of the components.The analasys will always fall short of the experience.The wholeness.
For you eveything is to be analysed using reductionist methods.Which i find fall short of a complete answer.
I find myself living in a society that has replaced the mytholgy of religion as the source of absolute truth with the mythology of science as the font of all wisdom.
Both requiring a leap of faith I am reluctant to make.
What would you rather have or a balloon.
Thank you for the input
“Vanishes in a puff of logic”

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/09/2004 at 09:21 AM

elwedriddsche pic

No proof is possible,all our philosophies,including scientific ones require at some point a leap of faith.

You are indeed headed straight towards solipsism. If you are consequent, you have to admit that you can merely assume that there’s a world out there and this discourse may well be just a figment of your imagination.

I find myself living in a society that has replaced the mytholgy of religion as the source of absolute truth with the mythology of science as the font of all wisdom.

Which society do you live in?

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Solipsist Great Britain (UK) Posted on 04/09/2004 at 12:40 PM

Solipsist pic

The energy ripple in the space time continuum that was
spacemonkey is no more, but in accordance with somebodies
law about something or other and energy.It has reappeared
having undergone a metamorphosis,an evolution perhaps?
Enter Solipsist,who says"a big fat hello!to any other
underachieving,disenfranchised,bottom feeders out there”
and is looking forward to the cut and thrust,red in tooth
and claw no doubt,as i work my way out of this
epistemological whole I have dug for myself.
Now where has that christian dude gone with my shovel.
Hello,HELLO.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/09/2004 at 12:49 PM

elwedriddsche pic

You know, I have a hard time not to confuse ‘epistemology’ with ‘episiotomy’ - but maybe I’m on to something.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

GeekMom United States Posted on 04/09/2004 at 12:55 PM

GeekMom pic

Just as long as you allow us Dos Equis types to circumsize—er, circumscribe—your arguments.

speaker United States Posted on 04/09/2004 at 01:27 PM

speaker pic

The level of intelligence in the conversation has gotten too high . . .
Um…POOP!

Solipsist Great Britain (UK) Posted on 04/09/2004 at 03:15 PM

Solipsist pic

sorry i left my phrase book in my other reality
dos equis, two horse/horse back.  Are the capitals a clue

solipsist Great Britain (UK) Posted on 04/09/2004 at 03:24 PM

solipsist pic

Just googled Dos Equis.
Shock! horror! you’r a piss artist? I thought it was some just feminist ball bustin crap.

solipsist Great Britain (UK) Posted on 04/10/2004 at 07:57 AM

solipsist pic

IF?Instead of thinking of fundemental particles as actual objects and instead
consider them as energy patterns.Not a new idea I’m sure.
AND if everything in the universe can be reduced to these fundemental energy patterns.
THEN we also consider mind / consciousness,epiphenomina or not as just another expression of an energy pattern.Albeit one which can’t be seen or measured.
WE do away with the parodox of mind over matter,since what we are then dealing with
is energy influencing energy,at a distance or otherwise.which is something we
experience all the time in light,magnetism,radiowaves etc.
Good grief the sides of this whole are steep, does anyone have a rope.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 04/10/2004 at 10:29 AM

elwedriddsche pic

Enough rope to hang yourself? grin

en·er·gy
n. pl. en·er·gies

  1. The capacity for work or vigorous activity; vigor; power. See Synonyms at strength.
  2.1. Exertion of vigor or power: a project requiring a great deal of time and energy.
  2.2. Vitality and intensity of expression: a speech delivered with energy and emotion.
  3.1. Usable heat or power: Each year Americans consume a high percentage of the world’s energy.
  3.2. A source of usable power, such as petroleum or coal.
  4. Physics. The capacity of a physical system to do work.

(http://www.dictionary.com)

Please define energy pattern?

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Page 2 of 2 pages  <  1 2

Name:

Email:

Location:

URL:

Smileys


Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Submit the word you see below:


<< Back to main