Consigliere: Keep cheering that socialism that has done such wonders for Europe Bahamat and allow the rest of us to look at the actual results of how it has helped your fellow man.

Let’s do that Consi.  You have the dispassionate skills of a critical researcher.  You’d never misrepresent data for political or ideological purposes, yes?  So let’s have it - where are those actual results you mention?  I’d be particularly interested in leaning about the wonders that our “free” market has done for America. 

Timmeh: I want almost no taxes.

At best, you get a little less than what you pay for.  In any free market, it’s better to be a producer than a consumer, since wealth and value have always flowed uphill.  Interestingly, the US managed health care market isn’t actually free, since your choices are tightly constrained during your annual “open enrollment” period.

Keep cheering that socialism that has done such wonders for Europe Bahamat and allow the rest of us to look at the actual results of how it has helped your fellow man.

Thank you Consi- I’m sure those who work in greed driven sweat shops in the far east do look at our standard of living and wish they could have it.

I want almost no taxes. The only things taxes should pay for is what can’t be gotten in a free market. That includes water, power, trash service and the like. Those are things that are only supplied by one source in each city.

Don’t need taxes for this. You want a crime investigated? Pay for it your self. Your house on fire, make sure Fire Dept is covered by the insurance. Power- Hey we can put that in the private sector- as Enron will agree.

Sorry if I didn’t state police, or fire departments explicitly, but I thought that was covered by the things that you can’t get by more than one source. As for power no you really can’t put that in a free market position, as it would require different lines for each supplier. I have no problem with not having health care coverage, because there is a clinic up the road that allows me to make payments. When I said that people that are working should be covered by there employers I would also include dependents, as for those that don’t work I don’t care. That doesn’t mean if you have a baby that is retarded they get screwed that’s not what I mean. Children with defects would be covered under the original coverage.

One more thing. I grew up poor, as in I was on the streets from age 14 until the age of 18. I have watched several friends get killed. I have sold drugs to pay my way in the world. I wasn’t even allowed to go to high school because I didn’t have a legal guardian, but I paid by myself to get a GED. I don’t get student aid for college, because I don’t agree with it, I pay for it myself. So don’t come talking to me about the poor helpless of the world, unless you’re talking about Sudan.

sorry for the third post but I have to say I grew up in hilltop Tacoma.

Timmeh: but I thought that was covered by the things that you can’t get by more than one source

Private armies , i suppose, but I doubt you meant that because once it rivals what there is of left of national military the law would essentially be decided by corporations, because the government would have no ability to enforce. Corporations/the rich could go to war with each other with no hinderance, and set their own laws on employees and townspeople.

Webs: Pure Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, or any other *ism will not work.  Because the government needs to be able to adapt and apply the best measures where needed

In addition pure governments don’t tend to have real opposition, or at least they need to share the same views to make it pure. Blind opposition keeps them in check but can prevent progress, so there’s always a certain range between how good and bad things can be, I think how much of a majority you can afford to have depends on how much you can trust them with that power. Pure also places trust in the succession, who is unknown.

Timmeh - amazing story.  With your gifts of self-expression, you should consider writing a book and I mean that.

But… the whole point of social programs, public education, public health, etc is to reduce the chances of situations like yours from happening in the first place.  To reduce crime, increase average level of education, raise economic productivity of society generally. 

Only a minority of individuals in your situation can survive and still become productive - vastly to your credit, but you are exceptional.  Making one exceptional person’s experience normative for everyone isn’t a sound basis for running a society.

Timmeh - indeed, being self-made deserves credit, and if you can do it in a privatized world then it might be possible for most others, but would you want others to go through the same as you? There isn’t a clear right or wrong to that question, because hardship can build character, some theorise the poor get more out of life because they are less enslaved to the persuit of material luxury, and are tougher having been less sheltered.

Bahamat: some theorise the poor get more out of life because they are less enslaved to the persuit of material luxury, and are tougher having been less sheltered.

Maybe so, but such theorists are probably in a small minority.  I suspect that the general scientific consensus is that poverty sucks, even for the “just happy to at least be breathing” poor.

DOF: Timmeh - amazing story.  With your gifts of self-expression, you should consider writing a book

I second that!

MP - probably so, and once poverty has fully done it’s job for that person, it’s nolonger necessary, (off topic) but note without as much need to be rich they will be less motivated to persue the higher salary jobs

And, like you said, they don’t usually need to be poor to the extent of ‘just happy to be breathing’, to get that benefit. One useful thing I find is to imagine myself in scenarios that I won’t/can’t be in, to get that benefit without having to experience it, it’s more flexible and less painful than going through it, though less deep because less real. Thinking about situations I’m not in causes concepts to clash and can at times be distressing, unavoidably because you don’t know where it’s headed, it causes mood changes without events just by thinking, but you can always find a way back to contentment.

I have to say sorry about the rant I just got back from a drink fest when I wrote that. I kind of came off as a dick. Sometimes I can get the “well I managed so why can’t you attitude” when I drink ( I think it’s Scottish thing”. I do think all children should get health care, and those that are out of work should get minimal care. Hell I would rather pay for a vaccine instead of a long term stay at the hospital. I don’t however see why able bodied people should get a free ride. I really see police and fire protection as a thing you can’t get from more than one source (see N.Y. City in the 1800’s). Education I see as a place where you could have multiple choices, but you have to opt out of public sources (I know that’s not a perfect option) just not right now. The military should never leave our shores unless we are attacked by a country, and not a criminal element. I do have a full belief in people owning guns. I have never, nor have those I hung out with, broken into a house where we thought we might get shot (and yes in my stupid days I did that dumb shit). Once again sorry for being a whiny bitch.

Timmeh - indeed, being self-made deserves credit, and if you can do it in a privatized world then it might be possible for most others, but would you want others to go through the same as you? There isn’t a clear right or wrong to that question

No this a clear right and wrong, no one should have to go through it.

Timmeh - amazing story.  With your gifts of self-expression, you should consider writing a book and I mean that

I am writing my memoirs. I just have a good ending yet.

I think the best way to keep people from going through what Timmeh did is to create some social instruments.  For example if everyone had access to health care that would be one less thing for people to worry about.  Giving them the opportunity to make something for themselves, to be successful and pay taxes.  A lot of crime stems from having nothing and needing something.  Thus countries with lower unemployment tend to have lower crime.

But I also believe education should be free to those that work hard.  I kinda like the system Brazil uses.  The schools that are free there tend to be in the top 10% in terms of quality.  So if you want a good education you have an incentive to try so it will be free.  The public schools that cost money tend not to be as good, kind of the difference between going to a State University and a small town college.

I certainly don’t think people deserve a free ride, but supporting those that cannot support themselves is not a free ride.  It’s compassion and shows you want your country to be strong, productive, and educated.

No the best way is to educate kids with up to date text and not books that were out dated by ten plus years. Second would be to change the way we teach kids. Not all children are going to doctors and we need to realize that. Find what the kid is good at and focus on it don’t try to give them a bunch of crap that they will never care about. If a kid is good at math go with it. If they understand english then teach them to write.

I certainly don’t think people deserve a free ride, but supporting those that cannot support themselves is not a free ride.  It’s compassion and shows you want your country to be strong, productive, and educated.

I knew plenty of people growing up that never looked for work because it was easier to just get a check.

I will give you two examples.
1. My mother, she is still trying to get disability even though she still does under the table electrician work.
2. My sister she has had five children by five different fathers and collects welfare, even though the state has found it necessary to take two of them (why not all I don’t know).

Yeah, some people will abuse the system.  I also know hard working people who are really struggling to better themselves and contribute to society.  They need a hand.  You try to make the program as sound as you can, and a certain amount of fraud will occur.  It’s part of the cost of running the program.

Not sure about he ‘up-to-date’ textbooks, though.  Most of the ones I’ve seen were utter crap.  I’m not sure how to even define a good textbook but the ones being made now, ain’t them.

No the best way is to educate kids with up to date text and not books that were out dated by ten plus years. Second would be to change the way we teach kids. Not all children are going to doctors and we need to realize that.

I agree our education system is fucked and as DOF said, so are the books and their publishers.  But forcing people to pay for a crappy education systems means people will just have to pay for a system that sucks.  Forcing people to pay for a good system is better but the underprivileged still won’t be able to afford or make the most of it.

For some of them staying alive and getting food may be their first priority.  Which is why if we help them in that respect we can then give them an opportunity to get an education.  If people don’t have to spend money on education and health care, then they will have more money to spend on necessities.

Find what the kid is good at and focus on it don’t try to give them a bunch of crap that they will never care about. If a kid is good at math go with it. If they understand english then teach them to write.

I think this should be done in the later years of high school and not sooner.  People need a base level of education that should include an understanding of math, science, reading, and writing.  Especially math and science.

I knew plenty of people growing up that never looked for work because it was easier to just get a check.

Than fix the loopholes.  Don’t end a social program because a few people take advantage of it.  Come up with different incentives that fix the problems associated with the program.  Or implement new ones.

Timmeh, we all admire your strength and what you went through, but don’t use that as an excuse to say anyone can do it.  Everybody goes through different situations in life that point you down a different path.  Not everyone is given the opportunity to take your path.

Not sure about he ‘up-to-date’ textbooks, though.  Most of the ones I’ve seen were utter crap.  I’m not sure how to even define a good textbook but the ones being made now, ain’t them.

A great teacher is equally hard to find.

DOF, what do you look for in a good text?

The mantra out here (and, I imagine, at most schools) is that you “get out of it what you put into it”. Of course, that’s not really true. I know lots of people that invest tons of work, organization, and dedication to end up with poor results (myself among them). I look for books that say what needs to be said in the fewest words and with the most clarity. I want otherwise in professors - people who will go out of the way to elaborate on an idea in case it doesn’t sit well the first time or two, and who will take extensive time to describe something in a variety of ways, even if some of them are not clear to me at all.

A text, IMO, is a reference for working knowledge. A professor is a helping hand.

“DOF, what do you look for in a good text?”

First it’s helpful to know how textbooks are made.  You know that old saying about sausage…

I look for an author.  A real author who wrote the thing and is responsible for its content.  Most textbooks are cut-and-paste/edit jobs.  I look for clear explanations and to-the-point exercises that are dissected in depth. (not doing the same thing fifty pointless times) I look for focus on the topic - why does a math book need pictures in it of children in a wheelchair?  Illustrations that support the text rather than seem tangential to it. I look for it to be small enough to carry and handle - one of my sons had a “life sciences” (which used to be called something like “biology") book that was too big to fit in his locker without going diagonal.  I look for non-glossy paper - makes a big difference in readability.  Good typography and page design.  In sum the book should stand on its own as a tool for learning the subject because let’s face it; the teacher probably has a degree in “education” and doesn’t know squat about the subject matter.

Good rule of thumb; never ask a child to study a book you wouldn’t.

I got a little behind so this is from 07/19/2007

timmeh: No this a clear right and wrong, no one should have to go through it.

It’s good to see you see that side, but I want to show that the alternative could be wished with good intentions

It is said that suffering builds character, makes you stronger, and as an antagonist it gives your life substance much like a film often has an antagonist to make it mean anything. It was through your suffering that you became the person you are, it showed you what effect things have, it made you think, it gave you the need for strength. Quite often I feel people who do asshat things don’t know what effect they’re having because they havn’t experienced the suffering firsthand, ie war, but they also need to think on it in order for it to achieve anything, and it can take a long time. Hierarchy in society makes it difficult for suffering to be imposed on those ruling, which may in part be why some desire meaningless goals like legacy, power, status and riches over the welfare of those affected.

Suffering may be the only way to make people see sense, and well-placed may in the long term prevent less-deserved suffering elsewhere

Bahamat,

Suffering may be the only way to make people see sense, and well-placed may in the long term prevent less-deserved suffering elsewhere

Well spoken. I’ve actually known quite a few people who created or maintained wounds (myself included) for the express purpose of a) making them appreciate what they have and b) helping them keep their focus on their goals. It’s a bizarre sort of mindset, speaking truth, but it is useful.

Probably similar to the idea of tragedy as catharsis.

For me the self-inflicted wounds are psychological, I find by nature of my type of shortcomings I throw myself in headfirst into situations I’m not prepared for or can’t yet handle properly and learn by error -to some extent people find appropriate suffering automatically whether they know it or not, it’s just when they do they need to think on what caused/ needs improving.

Learning the hard way is often deeper/ more fully taken on board (ie someone who regrets). I think some things (like mental strength and knowing who not to trust) can only really be learnt the hard way (at least in any timely manner)

Keep cheering that socialism that has done such wonders for Europe Bahamat and allow the rest of us to look at the actual results of how it has helped your fellow man.

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Ok seriously I can’t spell it’s before noon and Im drunk, but are you on crack? Socialism is what made Great Britian the most powerfull nation in the world. From the Enlightenment untill the first world war their might was contested but never signifigantly defeated. After which the USA moved to the fore front do, mostly, to massive natural resources resereves (Oil, Iron, Coal) that spanned a continent rather than a comparitavly small nation state. Have you obeserved your economy? Have you noticed your dollar slipping into oblivion? Have you noticed that your health care rates only slightly above Cuba’s? No one needs to see sicko to realize that putting ppls lives into dollars and cents is evil. Myself personaly I belive people exist to be exploited. I mean honestly in a democracy it is your DUTY to vote and have an opinion. What is your voter turn out rate? 50%? You do not deserve to be free, as a people, (remeber even in a democracy money pwns all), if you can’t think for yourselves. You live in the so called land of the free, but you have no idea what can happen when you allow your system to be bought by corperations. Actualy wait, you might becuase the evidence is every where. lol enjoy the future, it’s gonna be Fuckin awsome…