Hey everyone,

Alright...Les…
You said,
”Here’s the thing about this explanation that just doesn’t hold up under logic: If man was perfect at the beginning then how is it possible for the Devil to tempt him?”
Man was perfect,yes, but man was also young, and malliable...unknowing...take for example a new born baby, born so innocent, however when you tell the baby not to put something in their mouth they go right ahead and do it. In this analogy take you, the parent, as being God, and take the devil as being the baby’s curiostiy…

”If at the beginning man was in paradise and had everything he could want then how could he want more? ”
Kind of reminds you of the everyday American ‘world’ does it not? Want, want, want, money, power, control, success....But with Adam & Eve, I mean hey...man’s living freely, has everything he wants, food, relaxation....he lives in paradise...so why not take it a step furthur and become a god? We look at it now, and say that man was an idiot...but in some cases we still act that exact same way...where we have things going great for us....but we want more....and eventually it falls apart.

“ The whole statement above implies that man was flawed from the beginning in which case it would have been an intentional design decision from God and it’s hard to see how you can blame a flawed creation for acting in a flawed manner. If man didn’t have knowledge of right from wrong at the beginning then how would he have known that he was sinning? ”
Man was not flawed, man was innocent and naive...God distinctly told man...do not eat of the apple from ‘that’ tree....anything else you want, you can have....but not from this tree....and man accepted....he was not an idiot...he knew what God wanted....

”If man wasn’t intelligent then how can he be blamed for doing something stupid? If man wasn’t able to make his own decisions before sinning, then how was he able to decide to sin?”
Man was smart...for what was needed of him, he didn’t need extreme mathematics to solve a physics problem, describe the engineering factors in building an aircraft, and such...that wasn’t needed...man was in paradise.....
Is wasn’t just man’s fault....the devil (disguised as a serpent)...was tricky and crafty, and persuaded man into taking the apple...man knew it was wrong....man tried to move, but....man gave in....apparently man’s want for becoming god, was more important than God Himself. Man sinned.

”You basically described Adam as an idiot in paradise who was too dumb to know that what he was about to do was wrong and flawed from the get go that he would desire to have knowledge that God didn’t want him to have.”
No Adam was not an idiot...he had some knowledge....he knew what he was doing was wrong, but he gave into it...he sinned on his own will…

”And yet despite all these strikes against him doing the right thing in the first place, you fully blame him for the mistakes he makes and think God is justified in his anger and his punishment.”
Man desired to know all, to become as a ‘god’...so God allowed that to happen...if man wanted to live on earth, to feel reality, to learn and be educated, to be able to differenciate between right and wrong, to make his own choices.....HERE...have it…
...so here we end up......

”The Bible consistently refers to believers as “sheep.” Sheep are some of the dumbest animals on the planet and yet that’s what God wants you to be like.”
We are usually sheep, in contrast with the Sheppard (Jesus Christ) ...so in that sense we would be dumb....let’s say that you did believe there was a God....would you say that His intellect was higher, lower, or equal as yours?
Also, the Bible is full of symbolism....and people that rush through it, don’t realize it...they miss the things that they shouldn’t ...when you read...it should be slow...and you should understand what you read…

“ Has it ever occurred to you that the Bible is hostile toward knowledge because as people understand more about the world around them they’re less likely to buy into the fantasy and myth the Bible puts forth as truth? ”
The Bible is not hostile towards knowledge....tell me where it says that....
What do you mean by understanding the world around them?? By the fact that we hypothesize things....a hypothesis is not a fact....it is a guess....
Us evolving from monkies, I think is more of a fantasy than that of there being a God.

...............

Hey Brandi,

You said,
”That’s like saying someone won or lost the Superbowl because of God’s will. God doesn’t give a shit. People win or lose because someone is smarter/faster/stronger. End of story. You can wrap the fairness of it up in fairytale all day long, but it doesn’t change the truth.”
So are you trying to say that there is no hope for the underdog....they will never win ...because there are many instances where the opposite has happened.

“ Billions? Are you a creationist or an evolutionist? Now I’m confused.”
I am sorry I said the billions of years, I am not one who knows the exact age...it just seem that the human race has come a long way....which seems to have been done through a long peroid of time...I said billions of years to emphazise that point, I shouldn’t have said that though....I apologize, (comments retracted)
”If you say billions, that suggests you don’t take the creation story literally, but you take all the other stuff literally?”
How does me stating “billions” suggest that I don’t take the creation story literally? I do...I just meant to emphazise that it was a long period of time between the beginning of the world to present day....sorry

”There is absolutely no evidence to suggest it, other than in the bible, which holds no scientific weight whatsoever.”
The Bible is a historical text, containing true accounts of historical events unmatched by any other text, furthermore it has been backed up by many other texts dating back to the early times.

Brandi...please watch what you say, “...and possibly one of DB’s fellow Jesus Humpers.”
First of all, why are you randomly involving DB into this conversation? He has done nothing wrong, nor is he in any way involved with your rebuttel to what I said. So let’s just keep this argument between us...thanks....
Secondly...I don’t like the “Jesus Humpers” comment...its very deranging, offending, and not to mention appalling ....

Well Brandi, I’m surprised that you figured out I was a woman from my first comment...good job, many people think because of my nickname, I must be a man....but...are you trying to imply that many women are ignorant?.....I hope not....

Well, if there is one thing I agree with you it’s on the fact that this is a good site....helps one to sharpen what debating skills they have....well..."Practice makes better”

Have a great week,

IGWT,

Chris

Man was perfect,yes, but man was also young, and malliable…unknowing…take for example a new born baby, born so innocent, however when you tell the baby not to put something in their mouth they go right ahead and do it. In this analogy take you, the parent, as being God, and take the devil as being the baby’s curiostiy…

Bad analogy. All babies born since Adam and Eve are, by your definition, imperfect. Adam was perfect and should have wanted for nothing based on your description of the world at that time. All his needs were met and, being perfect, he would have been incapable of doing the wrong thing.

Also babies lack the knowledge and cognitive thinking necessary to make sense of a directive from a parent. Are you saying Adam was no smarter than a newborn? Do you disown your toddler and deny them your protection and support if they disobey you? No, you teach them right from wrong, but according to you God didn’t want Adam to have knowledge of right from wrong. How then is it fair to punish Adam for doing the wrong thing if he is incapable of recognizing it as wrong?

Kind of reminds you of the everyday American ‘world’ does it not? Want, want, want, money, power, control, success….But with Adam & Eve, I mean hey…man’s living freely, has everything he wants, food, relaxation….he lives in paradise…so why not take it a step furthur and become a god? We look at it now, and say that man was an idiot…but in some cases we still act that exact same way…where we have things going great for us….but we want more….and eventually it falls apart.

No, it doesn’t remind me of the everyday American world. The world ever since original sin is, once again, imperfect. You’re once again trying to use examples of the world after the sin to explain how the sin was possible. That’s logically inconsistent and not very persuasive.

Man was not flawed, man was innocent and naive…God distinctly told man…do not eat of the apple from ‘that’ tree….anything else you want, you can have….but not from this tree….and man accepted….he was not an idiot…he knew what God wanted….

Even if Adam knew what God wanted he was incapable of understanding what “right” and “wrong” was and thus unable to comprehend the repercussions of his transgression. One of the qualifying determinants of whether or not a suspect can claim insanity or diminished mental capacity as a defense in a court of law in America is his ability to recognize right from wrong. By most standards of law here in the U.S. Adam would be found not guilty because of his inability to determine right from wrong at the time he committed the crime. Do you believe it is right and just to punish people incapable of understanding right from wrong?

Man was smart…for what was needed of him, he didn’t need extreme mathematics to solve a physics problem, describe the engineering factors in building an aircraft, and such…that wasn’t needed…man was in paradise…..
Is wasn’t just man’s fault….the devil (disguised as a serpent)…was tricky and crafty, and persuaded man into taking the apple…man knew it was wrong….man tried to move, but….man gave in….apparently man’s want for becoming god, was more important than God Himself. Man sinned.

Adam couldn’t have known it was wrong because the apple was from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong! Prior to eating the apple he had no knowledge of right from wrong and if that is so then he couldn’t have known it was wrong to eat the apple. You still haven’t explained how a perfect man whose needs are fulfilled could “want” for anything, let alone want to be a God.

No Adam was not an idiot…he had some knowledge….he knew what he was doing was wrong, but he gave into it…he sinned on his own will…

How is that possible prior to his eating the apple of knowledge?

Man desired to know all, to become as a ‘god’…so God allowed that to happen…if man wanted to live on earth, to feel reality, to learn and be educated, to be able to differenciate between right and wrong, to make his own choices…..HERE…have it…
…so here we end up……

OK, now explain to me why wanting to know it all is a sin? To me there is a big difference to wanting to know it all and wanting to become a God. One is the pursuit of knowledge, the other a pursuit of power. What is wrong with being educated? How can one be expected to make good choices if he isn’t educated on what good choices are or why some choices are bad?

We are usually sheep, in contrast with the Sheppard (Jesus Christ) …so in that sense we would be dumb….let’s say that you did believe there was a God….would you say that His intellect was higher, lower, or equal as yours?

I wouldn’t know not having personally met God. Unless I had some reason to believe any one of the three choices I’d have to say that all three are as likely. You don’t have to be a big intellect to wield enormous power. Based on some of the decisions your God has made with Adam and Eve I’d have to say he sounds like a mental midget. I’d hope that he was more intelligent than I am, but there’s nothing that says he has to be. Assuming, for the moment, he exists at all.

Regardless of whether he’s more intelligent or not, the Bible still dictates that Christians should not think and be more like sheep. That’s an insult in my mind.

Also, the Bible is full of symbolism….and people that rush through it, don’t realize it…they miss the things that they shouldn’t …when you read…it should be slow…and you should understand what you read…

Having read it four times now I would argue that it would be very difficult to rush through reading the Bible. Trust me, when I was trying to clarify the doubts that had started to form after my first read-through I damn well took my time the second go round to study it carefully and I feel I understood it pretty well. You seem to think not, however, so please enlighten me on what I missed.

The Bible is not hostile towards knowledge….tell me where it says that….

Well, let’s start with that pesky apple of knowledge of right and wrong and God’s command for Adam not to eat it. Or have you forgotten that already? Beyond that pick any passage wherein you are admonished to be like a sheep and it’s pretty clear that you’re not supposed to think about things too much for fear of losing faith.

What do you mean by understanding the world around them?? By the fact that we hypothesize things….a hypothesis is not a fact….it is a guess….

You’re quite correct. A hypothesis is a guess, usually an informed guess, but a guess none the less. It is also the precursor to the development of a theory and theories live or die based on the facts that back them up. The more facts backing them up the more likely they become accepted as true.

What I mean by understanding the world around them is the knowledge that removes the mysticism of the unknown and allows for understanding. At one time eclipses were thought to be the work of angry Gods, but now we know it’s just the Moon passing between the Earth and the Sun and nothing to be feared.

Us evolving from monkies, I think is more of a fantasy than that of there being a God.

Oops! Your scientific ignorance is showing. Again.

We didn’t evolve from “monkeys” though we do share a common ancestor. At least there’s evidence backing up that theory, more so than for your magical old guy who sits in the sky answering wishes.

The Bible is a historical text, containing true accounts of historical events unmatched by any other text, furthermore it has been backed up by many other texts dating back to the early times.

Sorry, the Bible is bullshit. As a historical record it is laughable and as a moral guide it is questionable. Please cite just one of the many other texts dating back to early times that backs up the Bible?

Secondly…I don’t like the “Jesus Humpers” comment…its very deranging, offending, and not to mention appalling …

I believe that was the point of the statement. It is offensive, but no more so than trying to pass off the Bible as a historical record of unequaled accuracy.

Brandi…please watch what you say, “…and possibly one of DB’s fellow Jesus Humpers.”
First of all, why are you randomly involving DB into this conversation? He has done nothing wrong, nor is he in any way involved with your rebuttel to what I said. So let’s just keep this argument between us…thanks….
Secondly…I don’t like the “Jesus Humpers” comment…its very deranging, offending, and not to mention appalling ….

I find much what you are saying appalling and an affront to my intellectual dignity. Just because my language is more colorful doesn’t make yours any more palatable. Who are you to tell me to watch what I say? Only Les can do that here, no one else as far as I know (maybe some other regular who I would comply with in appropriate respect for my surroundings). And if Les feels like doing so, so be it. I don’t take direction from you.

I only involved DB as an educated-wild-ass-guess about a connection. I thought it was interesting. The timing, the perceived age, the rhetoric. I’m not sure why you think it’s some sort of insult to DB to suggest you might be aquaintences. But it does seem I have hit upon something, for whatever it’s worth.

Well Brandi, I’m surprised that you figured out I was a woman from my first comment…good job, many people think because of my nickname, I must be a man….but…are you trying to imply that many women are ignorant?…..I hope not….

It wasn’t difficult. Your words and style led me to the conclusion you are female. Many(not all) women are ignorant. I can say that because I am a woman. Of course, no man would get away with that comment with his genitals intact, but I feel perfectly qualified to make that statement as someone who is often embarrassed by members of the same sex. Before you ask, yes, there are many women I respect greatly, but don’t expect any auto-credit with me because we share the same reproductive organs. I find that males tend to argue more logically, and women tend to argue emotionally...and from a place of ignorance. By the way, “ignorant” means “Lacking education or knowledge. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: Unaware or uninformed.”

And now I would like to apologize to all the regular members for taking this post COMPLETELY off topic. No, I will not pursue this line of argument any further. I came for the philosophical and political commentary, not to argue empty arguments with chics (I can do that anywhere). Back to our regularly scheduled topic…

No, brandi, we aren’t aquaintences, I tend to disagree with some of the things she says. But she has good intentions and at least has a basic understanding of the Gospel.

Chris, ya the billions of years thing was a little off, I know you were suggesting a long time. The bible teaches that the earth is about 6000 years old. The longest guy to live was methuselah (guess on spelling) he lived till 969. Adam lived to 800 and something.
Something that hasn’t been brought up here is the flood, pre-flood times are when these seemingly ridiculas ages were achievable. The bible teaches that there was a canopy of water above the earth before the flood(most say in ice form held up by the earth’s magnetic field) which would block out uv rays, this beneficial greenhouse effect would cause the earth to have had 50% more oxygen and have twice the air pressure. In other words it would be like the entire earth was a hyperbaric chamber. You would heal incredibly fast, your blood plasma would be oxygen saturated so you could run like crazy and not get tired, and your skin would hold up alot longer due to the lack of uv rays. Plants would grow like crazy and the earth would be covered with alot less water before the flood happened. It would literally be paradise.
-The ages in the bible get cut in half the generation after the flood, then in half again the next generation until in got down to around the hundred mark. The reason everyone thinks these ages are bull is because they forget about the flood.

Les,

“Adam couldn’t have known it was wrong because the apple was from the tree of knowledge of right and wrong! Prior to eating the apple he had no knowledge of right from wrong and if that is so then he couldn’t have known it was wrong to eat the apple. You still haven’t explained how a perfect man whose needs are fulfilled could “want” for anything, let alone want to be a God.”

It was not a matter of man “wanting” more than what they had in the garden. It was a matter of the devil lying to them, you somehow assume that Adam was all “I need more! I want to become a god.”
All the devil did was tell them a lie and they believed it. You somehow think that in order to believe a lie you need to first “Know right from wrong” Adam had free choice, and was at one point perfect, he was not a robot sheep. All God said was don’t eat from that one tree, that’s it. So when the devil lied to them, their free choice allowed them to believe him, not a preconception of right or wrong. (They obviously wouldn’t have done it unless they were decieved, God said not to.) In this, they disobeyed God.

Les for old times sake why not go for a 5th read? You could at least straighten out some of your own misconceptions of the bible yourself.
The Bible DOES NOT promote mindlessness!! Read proverbs!! So much of the bible is about gaining wisdom, and you trash it constantly, yet claim to be logical and reasonable.
Chris’s best point was that you claim that God doesn’t show himself to you. I know you like to rule it out in saying that “He sure did choose some crappy messengers” but the messenger’s age, IQ or whatever doesn’t change the authenticity of the message. I believe God may be speaking to you through this website but what you have to realize is that you won’t go anywhere with a hard heart towards it. It’s YOUR choice, God’s not going to bust down your door and give you a “serious talking to” face to face. At least consider that notion.

Something that hasn’t been brought up here is the flood, pre-flood times are when these seemingly ridiculas ages were achievable. The bible teaches that there was a canopy of water above the earth before the flood(most say in ice form held up by the earth’s magnetic field) which would block out uv rays, this beneficial greenhouse effect would cause the earth to have had 50% more oxygen and have twice the air pressure.

Funny how nothing outside of the Bible mentions anything of the sort existing at that time period. You’d think folks would notice a big field of ice capable of melting into enough water to flood the entire Earth floating in the atmosphere. You’re referring to the model of the flood as detailed by Whitcomb & Morris which would actually have none of the benefits you’re describing and would actually cause problems. Enough water to cover the Earth to a depth of 40 feet hanging in the atmosphere would indeed raise oxygen levels along with nitrogen levels, to a toxic level not conducive to long life. It also would have blocked a lot of light lowering temperatures on the planet significantly. Your claim that it would block UV light is also faulty as the UV light would actually cause any water molecules above the ozone layer to break down. Of course there’s the basic question of how so much water in any form was suspended in the air as a canopy in the first place. The Earth’s magnetic field wouldn’t have any real effect on the water’s suspension especially if it were in ice form. Water isn’t magnetic and you can test that one yourself easily enough.

-The ages in the bible get cut in half the generation after the flood, then in half again the next generation until in got down to around the hundred mark. The reason everyone thinks these ages are bull is because they forget about the flood.

So when did they get cut down yet again to the 20 to 30 year mark? People living in Shakespeare’s time were considered elderly if they lived to be 30. People living to be 100 is just now beginning to be the norm whereas by your statement it’s been that way for quite a while now.

It was not a matter of man “wanting” more than what they had in the garden. It was a matter of the devil lying to them, you somehow assume that Adam was all “I need more! I want to become a god.”

Go back and read the thread again. I never claimed Adam wanted to be a god, Chris did. I was merely responding to her claim.

All the devil did was tell them a lie and they believed it. You somehow think that in order to believe a lie you need to first “Know right from wrong” Adam had free choice, and was at one point perfect, he was not a robot sheep. All God said was don’t eat from that one tree, that’s it. So when the devil lied to them, their free choice allowed them to believe him, not a preconception of right or wrong. (They obviously wouldn’t have done it unless they were decieved, God said not to.) In this, they disobeyed God.

OK, but without knowledge of right and wrong how could Adam be expected to know that it was “wrong” to disobey God? If Adam was deceived and incapable of knowing that what the Devil was saying was wrong then how can he be held accountable for his decision? If he was perfect then how was he capable of making the wrong decision? You’d think a perfect being would instinctively do the right thing by their nature alone and no amount of lying would be able to change that. You haven’t addressed these questions.

Les for old times sake why not go for a 5th read? You could at least straighten out some of your own misconceptions of the bible yourself.

You assume I don’t consult the Bible regularly already. I keep one handy as it’s useful when debating the deluded such as yourself. Again, the difference between an opinion and an informed opinion. I may yet devout the time to a fifth reading, but all that’s likely to do is reconfirm the problems I have with it.

The Bible DOES NOT promote mindlessness!! Read proverbs!! So much of the bible is about gaining wisdom, and you trash it constantly, yet claim to be logical and reasonable.

Knowledge and wisdom are two different things. One is gained through study and the other through experience. It’s best if you have both. The Bible does speak a lot about gaining wisdom, but it also admonishes against thinking and the gaining of knowledge. Yes, I trash the Bible constantly. That’s because I think it’s largely bullshit. If I think it’s bullshit then it’s both logical and reasonable that I would trash it.

Chris’s best point was that you claim that God doesn’t show himself to you. I know you like to rule it out in saying that “He sure did choose some crappy messengers” but the messenger’s age, IQ or whatever doesn’t change the authenticity of the message. I believe God may be speaking to you through this website but what you have to realize is that you won’t go anywhere with a hard heart towards it.

You and Chris can’t even agree on what the message is and yet this is somehow supposed to be representative of God trying to communicate with me through this website? If so then he must be one confused bastard. Perhaps he is trying to communicate with me through this website, but I’ve yet to see anything to suggest it. I have seen a lot of believers showing up and trying to dictate what the truth is and expecting me to just say “Oh, OK, I’m sorry. I’ll buy into whatever you say without question!” Sorry, I don’t work that way. Is my heart hard? I don’t think so. I’d love to see some evidence, ANY evidence, that God is trying to speak to me through my website, but I just don’t see it.

It’s YOUR choice, God’s not going to bust down your door and give you a “serious talking to” face to face. At least consider that notion.

I have considered that notion. Damned shame God won’t bust down my door and give me a serious talking to as that would be very effective. It’s what I’d do if I were God and was actually concerned whether or not people believed in me. Hell, if I were God no one would doubt as I would make damned sure my presence was known. Bad people would receive just and swift punishment from me in person and good people would win free dinners with me at a restaurant of their choice every time they did something of significance to help others. I wouldn’t run around telling people how unworthy of my love they are, but would deliver a message of individual worth and my appreciation for their worship.

I sure as hell wouldn’t blame my creations for mistakes they couldn’t possibly be responsible for due to a lack of understanding.

Something that hasn’t been brought up here is the flood, pre-flood times are when these seemingly ridiculas ages were achievable. The bible teaches that there was a canopy of water above the earth before the flood(most say in ice form held up by the earth’s magnetic field) which would block out uv rays, this beneficial greenhouse effect would cause the earth to have had 50% more oxygen and have twice the air pressure. In other words it would be like the entire earth was a hyperbaric chamber. You would heal incredibly fast, your blood plasma would be oxygen saturated so you could run like crazy and not get tired, and your skin would hold up alot longer due to the lack of uv rays. Plants would grow like crazy and the earth would be covered with alot less water before the flood happened. It would literally be paradise.
-The ages in the bible get cut in half the generation after the flood, then in half again the next generation until in got down to around the hundred mark. The reason everyone thinks these ages are bull is because they forget about the flood.

I didn’t forget about the flood or the water canopy, but I was hoping you would be smarter than to drag out every quack theory you can google up to make your cosmic crossword puzzle turn out the way you want it to.

Please stop sleeping through science class. A canopy of water/vapor/ice thick enough to flood the entire earth would block out virtually all sunlight and nothing could survive long in the perpetual darkness. Not exactly the paradise you describe.

Atmospheric pressure at sea level (today) is around 15 psi. For the atmosphere to support as much water as you claim, pre-flood people wouldn’t exactly be living in a hyperbaric chamber (al la Jacko, another whacko)...the air pressure would be in the thousands of psi and the temperature would literally be boiling.

So it wouldn’t be a hyperbaric chamber...it would be a pressure cooker. Noah and his buddies would be very savory, not lousy with longevity.

It’s YOUR choice, God’s not going to bust down your door and give you a “serious talking to” face to face. At least consider that notion.

So those who have had a personal experience with God or Jesus are wrong?

The bible teaches that the earth is about 6000 years old. The longest guy to live was methuselah (guess on spelling) he lived till 969. Adam lived to 800 and something.

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

Wrong on Adam and you were guessing on the spelling of Methuselah.  Kinda sad that the Jesus Humpers don’t have the time to look it up in the bible, but the atheists and agnostics have the book on hand for reference.

I had a personal experience with God once.  Then the walls started breathing, and I totally forgot about him.

I have yet to hear of a “personal experience” with divinity that can’t be explained fairly easily. Of course, just like the telephone game, the stories get mucked up and embellished by believers down the line, to the point where the “story” might seem hard to refute, but when you go back to the source and get the real data, it’s never as supernatural as some want so desperately to believe.

I had a supernatural experience, have them often, actually. If I lived a few hundred years ago I would surely have been branded a witch, a prophet, possessed, an oracle, or some such thing...and I wouldn’t even have the luxury of knowledge to argue, I’d probably chalk it up to something supernatural, too. It’s the divine, supernatural affliction called partial temporal lobe epilepsy (the LSD of epilepsy, not the fall-n-shake kind). It beats the hell out of any religious experience or vision I’ve ever heard of. It’s not divine, it’s just an electrical storm in the brain, detectable by any old EEG or CAT scan. There’s a perfectly natural explanation, as there is for all things if you dig hard enough. People sorely underestimate the power of the human brain (and the tricks it can play on you that feel “real” beyond comprehension).

So those who have had a personal experience with God or Jesus are wrong?

You’re not addressing me, and I know that was rhetorical. But yes. They are wrong. It goes no further than what is inside their own head, or in the psychology of mass delusion.

Actually, I didn’t mean it as a rhetorical question.  Just poking at DB’s statement implying that God won’t communicate with you personally.  On further consideration, he could be Catholic, beliving God only speaks to the pope.

Just for clarification, I agree with you, Brandi.

On the temporal lobe epilepsy, I read a recent article about a section of the brain that seems to be associated with religious experiences.  Sorry I don’t have time to hunt it down.  I think someone quoted in the article said it proved there was a god.  Seems to me it would indicate just the opposite - maybe religion being a mental disorder? 

Kicking over the ant bed of religion....

On the temporal lobe epilepsy, I read a recent article about a section of the brain that seems to be associated with religious experiences.  Sorry I don’t have time to hunt it down.  I think someone quoted in the article said it proved there was a god.  Seems to me it would indicate just the opposite - maybe religion being a mental disorder? 

I consider the way most religion manifests itself in people to just be a character weakness, not a mental disorder. But I do believe that a large portion of so-called supernatural or “religious experiences” are just one’s brain playing tricks. You don’t have to be a temporal lobe epileptic to have one or two “electrical storms” in your life. I’ve heard (not verified) they can be brought on in perfectly normal people by extreme stress, emotion, or fatigue...which is usually when you hear of people having these religious episodes anyway.

I, however, have them on a fairly regular basis (not often, but consistent) all throughout my life due to a miscommunication between the left and right sides of my brain. Neurons temporarily go nuts and overfire in the temporal lobe, which controls hearing, speech, perception, and memory...as opposed to other types of more common epilepsy that controls motor function (hence, fall down and convulse). Temporal lobe “storms” cause the person to feel sensations, hear sounds/voices, or create very vivid deja vu imagery that just isn’t there.

As a person with firsthand knowledge, it is a very powerful sensation. Especially if you don’t know what it is. Scared the shit out of me when it started in my preteens. Actually it’s quit harmless and even a bit “neato” if you can come to terms with it, but without understanding what is going on it can be very frightening and moving. I can CERTAINLY understand how some people can claim a divine experience from something similar, and truly believe it...although they’d be wrong.

Oh, is this the article you’re talking about?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2865009.stm

By the way, here’s another good link:
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/out_of_body_claims.htm

And I have had that exact “floating above myself looking down” experience, too. That pesky temporal lobe...having a party without my permission. It’s not aliens, near-death bullshit, the light of heaven, or God’s voice. It’s all IN THEIR HEAD. I know, because it’s in my damn head, and luckily I’m not a superstitious flake and am fortunate enough to live in a time where I can understand the biology of what’s really going on.

And one more really good one, pertaining directly to the religious experiences of people, and specifically to Moses and Mohammad. Thought you might enjoy.

http://www.science-spirit.org/articles/Articledetail.cfm?article_ID=130

Many historical figures may have had TLE, including such religious and political leaders as Moses, Mohammed, Julius Caesar, and Alexander the Great, and such writers as Dostoyevsky, Flaubert, Lewis Carroll, and Eugene O’Neill.  Another possible TLE sufferer is Vincent van Gogh, whose hypergraphia is well documented.  In a fifteen-month period in the late 1880s, for example, van Gogh produced hundreds of paintings, drawings, and lengthy letters.  The conversion of another great writer of letters, the Apostle Paul, on the road to Damascus, had several of the hallmarks of a complex partial seizure - a blinding flash of light, confusion, a disembodied voice, and subsequent loss of appetite....The religious prophets most often thought to have had epilepsy are Mohammad, Moses, and St. Paul. Dostoevsky, another famous epileptic whose works are filled with ecstatic visions of universal love (and terrible nightmares of uncanny fear and radical evil), thought it was obvious that Mohammad’s visions of God were triggered by epilepsy. “Mohammad assures us in this Koran that he had seen Paradise,” Doestevsky notes. “He did not lie. He had indeed been in Paradise — during an attack of epilepsy, from which he suffered, as I do.”

Imagine...entire religions and leagues of followers based on the crazy hallucinations of someone just like myself. I believe it.

Moses carved those commandments himself, in a temporal lobe fit of hallucination, punctuated by another common symptom, hyper-graphia (copious and obsessive writing with a neurological etiology).

In fact, certain individuals who develop temporal lobe epilepsy and, thus, limbic hyperactivation, may suddenly become hyper-religious and spend hours reading and talking about the Bible (or other culturally relevant scriptures) and other religious issues.  Once this condition develops, they may spend hours every day preaching or writing out their mystical and/or religious thoughts, or engaging in certain actions they believe have religious significance.  Many modern-day religious writers also happen to suffer from epilepsy are, in fact, exceedingly prolific, and those who feel impelled to preach tend to do just that...As noted above, there is some evidence that many religious and spiritual leaders have had similar temporal lobe, limbic-system-induced religious experiences.  Moses, for example, may have suffered from temporal lobe seizures.  Presumably, this was a consequence of being left, as an infant, for days to bake in the sun, after his mother abandoned him in a basket on a small stream.  If that were the case, his brain could have become overheated and damaged by the scorching Egyptian sun....If Moses subsequently developed temporal lobe epilepsy, this cold explain his hyper-religious fervor, his rages, and the numerous murders he committed or ordered.  His speech impediment, hyper-graphia (copious and obsessive writing with a neurological etiology), and hallucinations, such as hearing the voice of God speaking to him from a burning bush, are symptoms not uncommonly associated with temporal lobe seizures and limbic hyperactivation.

In my opinion, if TLE really is the case in some of these situations, some of the lunacy can’t be directly attributed to the actual TLE, but to the mental and emotional struggle of someone trying to make sense out of it hundreds/thousands of years ago.

Les,
“Enough water to cover the Earth to a depth of 40 feet hanging in the atmosphere”

Once again les, read your bible. It says that the fountains of the deep broke open during the flood, the majority of the water came from inside the earth, the canopy may have contributed, but for sure didn’t single handedly flood the earth, your argument would be strong if that’s what the bible says, but it doesn’t.
I did hear about how it may have been suspended by the “meysner” effect or whatever it’s called, I’ll check into that.

“So when did they get cut down yet again to the 20 to 30 year mark? People living in Shakespeare’s time were considered elderly if they lived to be 30”
haven’t you just answered yourself? Or are you asking when does the bible talk about shakespeare’s times?

“Go back and read the thread again. I never claimed Adam wanted to be a god, Chris did. I was merely responding to her claim.”
All I did was clarify the point for both of you, am I not allowed to do that?

“If Adam was deceived and incapable of knowing that what the Devil was saying was wrong then how can he be held accountable for his decision?”

Because God told him “don’t eat from that tree, for if you do you will surely die”. God explained the punishment to his face, that’s how he can hold him accountable. He didn’t know right and wrong, but he did know his creator and what he says is true.

“If he was perfect then how was he capable of making the wrong decision?”
He was capable because he had free choice, is this such a tough concept for you? I think your making it more difficult than needs be.
What haven’t I answered here?

“I may yet devout the time to a fifth reading, but all that’s likely to do is reconfirm the problems I have with it.”
Especially if you read it with that closed mind set.

“The Bible does speak a lot about gaining wisdom, but it also admonishes against thinking and the gaining of knowledge.”
Where? I’d like to check it out.

It’s nice that you’ve shared what you would be like if you were God, and how you seem to know how God SHOULD be acting. Very wise and educated of you to do so, but your not God, nor do you have the slightest bit of right to tell him how he should act.

Hey, DB...I’m going to respond, but I’m taking it to the shiny new message board! Come on over…

Mmm. Fun debate(?). No. This isn’t a debate. Les is slaughtering the opposition.

I think a wiki would be more suitable for these types of debates. One where a side can present arguments and have the other side comment on them (and so on). Anything like that out there?

The only way I think I could respect a person that warships a fence, in the realm of a Christian, would be the following. If they started out as an atheist, read the bible and made up there own personal opinions leading to a God. But that doesn’t happen, now does it?

People commonly mix up there own unsorted beliefs into the term religion, logic, science, et cetera. It’s really quite sad. There’s no sure way to find people that are not like that, because everybody has to go through that in there life. As a society, on average, we are like the child that has not matured. Parts of society have come closer, (in my opinion that would be the athiests), but all in all ... no. If everybody had the same beliefs there’d be a big problem. We’re always going to have these little arguments of atheism vs. religionismitism. I’d love to find an answer. I’d love to find a Christian that converted over to Atheism. But the more and more people join one side of a story, more people will join the other side - balancing everything out. Without balance there’d probably be a lot of unproductivity going on. Could you imagine the entire world under one belief system? Hm.

I recommend to anybody who is not an atheist “Anthem”, by Ayn Rand. It’s a book. It speaks of a collective society where everybody is equal. The word “I” is not known of. A character breaks out of this and has his own revelation that I wish many many people in our world would have. This revelation is ‘ego’ and ‘self’. Don’t go with the whole, go astray. Think on your own.

I believe this debate is weighted on one side of the balance. On one side, Les (Mr. Rotten Bastard), who seems to have an ego that supports every thing he says. On the other side, I believe a young boy is typing out his feelings. Read: young. Not at all mature. Read: Feelings. Read: Not at all matured feelings. I don’t mean to be insulting, but truth can insult. Maybe I’m wrong. Shoot me.

Maturity is a battle that can never be one over a debate. Ever. It’s something that comes with experience. And thought. But mostly thought.

Hm. Comments? Why do I get the feeling I didn’t really word this right?

I doubt that any of the existing wikis are a proper vehicle for a formal debate.

Perhaps the thing to do is to use a writing style similar to legal filings, with itemized points. You can then use a hyperlinked matrix of sorts to display points and counter-points side by side. Using this kind of display, it would be particularly easy to keep track of which arguments have not been answered.

It’s called pareidolia. It’s a manifestation of the way our brains are wired, and nothing more. We simply see patterns that aren’t necessarily there by unconciously filling in the blanks.

Reading the comments on this site is giving me a big fat headache.  I love the way StupidEvilBastard makes some very apt observations of the religious insanity present in the population at large, and all of a sudden the short bus full of “believers” pulls up and everyone bounces out like Circus Clowns for Jesus.

It’s JUST A FENCE DAMN IT!  It’s a stupid optical illusion!  And just WHAT makes you superstitious “believers” so damn sure you even KNOW what Mary looked like to begin with?  Do you honestly think she was a brunette wearing a blue robe?  If she even existed, she wasn’t a lilly-white European, she was as brown as any Palestinian--ditto for the big J himself (Mel Gibson notwithstanding).

As Denis Leary once said...if Mary REALLY wanted to make an appearance she wouldn’t show up as a squinty-eyed optical illusion on a fence post...SHE’S GOT A BIGGER BUDGET.  She’s pop up in the middle of “Lord of the Rings” on opening day and shout “HEY, STOP BEING SO DAMNED STUPID!”.  Why would she show up in some smelly farmer’s field on a fence post in the bloody outback?

This happens EVERY year.  A custodian accidentally sprays a chemical cleaner on an office window and suddenly the “believers” start seeing Mary.  Some Italian bakes a muffin that kinda looks like a face and suddenly it’s Jebus himself.  Wake up and smell the maple-nut-crunch folks.  You’re so desperate for something physical to vindicate your increasingly delusional belief system that you’re willing to believe anything, no matter how absurd.

SEB, it’s a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

Ugh, this has gotten me sick.

I tried for years to believe in the Bible. The pressure from my family eased off a bit when I did, and I had your stereotypical out-of-bible-school bible study guide there to counter every intelligent thought I had. Ever seen a Mormon and a Baptist fight about the SAME religion. I got to watch my friend and the bible-thumper do it, and I must say, both came out sounding stupid.

Anyway, I stray from my point. I tried and tried, but the “Spirit” never really entered me. (Luckily, I wasn’t Catholic, or else the spirit might have entered me a different way...) I always had a vague idea of what I believed in, and Jebus never shook it.

Look guys, the sugar I poured in my coffee showed me the face of John Kerry. Should I start worshiping him as my god? Bill Clinton wrote a book, I guess I should worship him too. A whole group of people worked on this programming book I have in my hand. Perhaps I should become a C++ian.

Please visit our Christian Friendly resource center at http://www.cgff.net and meet with like minded people!

I must admit I have always enjoyed this topic even though it is as futile as the other which draws the same numbers, Politics but the chance of proving it is about as good as finding an honest politician that remains that way his entire service.
But if these Christians knew half what they proclaim to, they should actually go back and read the book again. To put a stop to all the lameness simply use your brain one small moment in time rather then have others tell you what is and isn’t. My father is an atheist, however I am not, but I do tend to read and I have the ability to question and make my own conclusions, and I have read enough to know that Jehovah nor his son are in rule at this time. That only allows one other choice, take it however you wish, but read well before you dispute it. It also states there will be no question when he returns to power that all man and all nations will view it, does this mean that he doesn’t help where needed no it does not. But that requires you as 1 person to ask and no one else. So do I believe in all this sightings, NO! What is one of the main points made in the bible, to worship no false Gods, or pray before or to, inanimate objects? Well duh, IMHO I would think fence post, wood doors, and grill cheese sandwiches would fall under that category. Oh and JFYI so does a cross “which btw isn’t even portrayed correctly�.

As for those that choose not to believe, well that of coarse is there choice, but I do ask since they can’t explain the monkey story of evaluation, “BTW of all the animals why monkeys jeez� since they don’t even have documentation, how do you find it so easy to dismiss a faith which is documented and has yet to be wrong in its foresight and proclamations? It is as old as known mankind thus can be tracked to the beginning of mankind. Given it to is a matter of faith just as is evolution however it does at least provide a base, for start and end.

Anyway those are the thoughts from the countryside.

God Bless all.
Jim

HELPING GOD

By Peter Fredson

Christian Republicans are evidently dedicated to helping their god in any way possible. His mighty fight against Satan desperately needs the help of the Bush administration and all the Ashcroft fans.  Thousands of evangelists plead with Christians to “helpâ€? their god. They can “helpâ€? defend against EVIL with money, for instance.  All the thousands of priests, reverends, parsons, ministers, etc. that make a living from talking about their god, claim that giving money to them will “helpâ€? their god. Baskets full of money are given to “helpâ€? Jesus. 

Evidently the bible-thumpers that actually receive the money will hold it in a locked box for the moment that Jesus descends from someplace called Heaven and then they will give him all the accumulated cash for his next sojourn on earth. It must amount to a considerable quantity by now, even at 3% interest. 

One wonders if the priestly money-holders will sell their houses, cars, airplanes, swimming pools and other properties they bought with Jesus’ money, converting all to cash, so Jesus can wear expensive suits and shoes like they do, and perhaps they will buy him a stretch limousine so he can ride in style.  Having given Jesus all their cash, they will immediately convert to a life-style of poverty.

Evidently the Christian god, or 3-in-one entity, needs their help. Just listen to the evangelists begging for something they can convert to cash.  They call it “seed.â€? and they plant it avidly until their bank accounts swell to bursting with the harvest.  And, yet, they continue daily to beg, to plead, for more “help.â€? Listen to their sermons, broadcasts, radio talks and you hear a constant demand for ‘seedâ€?, for “helpâ€? from their fat mouths, from their pudgy frames, from their expensively clothed bodies, emanating from a thousand stations 24 hours a day.  Can you say “venal?â€? I knew you could.

Yes, their god needs their help.  According to their Sacred Book their God created everything by simply speaking it.  He said, “Let there be lightâ€? and there was light. And he made a firmament, and divided waters, and made dry land.  He made the sun and the moon and then, almost in an afterthought, casually, seemingly without effort, “He made the stars also.â€?  That was quite an afterthought, to make all of the galaxies, planets, black-holes, stars, meteorites, moons, etc.  There must be, as Carl Sagan eloquently said, “Billions and Billions,â€? of them.

Yet, this entity, or 3-in-one, needs the help of some fat-faced weasels who collect wads of money from gullible congregations and retired people, because this OMNIPOTENT MIGHTY GOD needs Benny Hinn, Ronny Parsley, Tom Brocolli, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and other gesticulating. prancing. ranting. Hallelujah-shouting, bible-thumpers to “helpâ€? him.  God wants his helpers to have limousines, airplanes, swimming pools, expensive clothing, the finest food, huge bank accounts, Ferraris, air-conditioned dog-houses, gold-plated bathroom faucets, and other amenities.

The 3-in-One God was originally a phallus and its appendages. It was an ancient and venerable symbol of maleness, befitting a Neolithic pastoral people just emerging from barbarism. Male domination was the standard, and women were thought of as leading males to perdition.

Christianity still retains the old flavor of subduing women into second-class status. To help god is to help subdue women, with the slogan “Stop luring men into Hell.� Anything favoring women must be looked upon as “Devil’s Work.� It is to be resisted with might and main, lest Satan conquer their God when enough people catch a glimpse of tit.

Yes, you can see how the preachers fight Satan, to help their God. Look at the wonderful way they helped God by telling the F.C.C. that Janet Jackson exposed about 3 square inches of mammary tissue, leading to Satan harvesting all the souls of everyone gazing on that horrible and shocking sight, from which they still haven’t recovered.

Poor fundamentalist victims were blind-sided by a tit, (even shielded by a metal medallion,) wounding all their moral sensitivity to the point of agony and placing their immortal souls in deadly peril of imminent destruction by fire.  If this nation recovers from such a deep lapse of moral degradation, it will be a genuine MIRACLE. So poor John Ashcroft, George Bush, and all the True Believers in the White House will now have to get on their knees and beg their god to forgive this tremendous lapse of morality.  In return, they must promise to use some of the Iraq Oil money to build a shrine to Jesus right in the Oval Office, and hang stone copies of the Ten Commandments in every public restroom and courthouse. 

Then they can forget all the lies, deceit, deceptions, exaggerations, killing, maiming, destruction, impositions, bullying and other lapses committed in their enthusiasm to “help God.â€? And all will again be right in the world that is just as safe as being in Jesus’ arms. 

You see what trouble, what distress, what panic, Janet’s nipple caused.  Imagine if BOTH nipples had been exposed!

OH, MY GOD! The Apocalypse is upon us. Sell all your property now, and give the money to the evangelists.  That’s the only way we can all be saved!

OK I can’t read anymore of this articles until I say something. Stop putting Christians and Catholics in the same catagory. Christians DO NOT worship Mary, she is merely the mother of Jesus. The reason Catholics worship “The Virgin Mary” is because when they went around conquering nations. All the tribes for the most part believed in a mother goddess, so when the went about “converting” them they replaced their “mother earth” statues with “mother mary” statues and said “now your catholic” No where in the bible does it say to worship, pray or bow to mary, and real Christians know that.