Virgin Mary image appears on a fence post. Religious-types freak out.

Posted by Les on Friday, January 31, 2003 at 03:36 PM. Read 10496 times. Tags: , , , ,
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Seems the folks down in Australia are getting a little of the old holy-image-appears-on-random-object-Christians-start-acting-like-total-whack-jobs fun of their own as of late. So says The Sydney Morning Herald:

Hundreds of believers flocked to the Coogee Beach headland yesterday to witness what they say is an apparition of the Virgin Mary.

Scores more hiked up the cliff path to touch, kiss and pray to the post which over the past few days has been transformed into something of a shrine, with pictures of the virgin, rosary beads and flowers piled around the white-washed fence.

Some wept, others sang, most prayed. As the sunlight reflected off a crook in the fence throughout the afternoon, hundreds claimed they could discern the shape of a veiled figure, and most agreed it was “Our Lady”.

They kissed a fence post?! Do they not realize that dogs tend to urinate on fence posts? I suppose that’s a little better than rubbing their naked asses against it.

This is one of those things about Christians that I just don’t understand. First off, why would Jesus and his Mother spend so much time drawing pictures of themselves into various random objects such as trees, fence posts, office building windows, or whatever other random inanimate object happens to be around at the time when they could do a much better job of letting people know they really exist by, say, materializing in the middle of the Today show set and performing an undeniable miracle such as making Al Roker actually interesting, or at least entertaining, to watch? Huh? Is that too much of a miracle for the King of Kings to pull off? I realize I’m asking a lot here.

No, instead we get nothing but pathetic doodles that have less artistic merit than something produced by a blind epileptic quadriplegic. Artistically speaking, Jesus should stick to turning water into wine and leave the art stuff to the professionals.

Secondly (yeah, I did have more questions), why the hell when one of these shoddy self-portraits appear do all the Christians in the immediate vicinity feel they have to:

A) rush immediately to the site in question
B) touch, rub, kiss, fondle, molest, pray, cry, or faint
C) generally make a nuisance of themselves?

They do that by clogging streets, leaving various “gifts” (someone eventually has to pick that shit up), trampling people’s lawns and just generally not doing anything productive or important despite all the problems they cause by being there. What the fuck is wrong with these people?

When was the last time you heard of a bunch of Jews freaking out because a vague image of some holy figure of their’s showed up on someone’s kreplach? How the last time you heard about a load of Muslims spazzing because one of them saw the face of Mahomet appear in the pattern of the wood grain of some random door someplace? You never hear about that sort of thing.

Occasionally the Hindus will make a big deal out of a statue of one of their various Gods they have supposedly drinking milk, but that’s about the only other religious group I can think of that has anything close to what the Christians are constantly reporting and it’s about a dumb as the idea of Jesus drawing bad pictures of himself everywhere.

Whatever. There are days when I’m feeling particularly evil that I just know there’s a great set of pranks to be pulled using this affinity of Christians to practically wet themselves over this sort of thing. One of these days I may have to see if I can pull it off.

Comments:

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Brandi United States Posted on 10/07/2003 at 07:12 PM

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And yes, I probably cannot fathom what Les is going through right now…but how would you know? Do you think that I’ve grown up all sheltered and trouble free? Do you know what I’ve felt? The issues I’ve dealt with? The emotions that have overcome me? The thinks I think? Actions I do? NO….so don’t think that my life is sweet and dandy, and free from blemish…because it’s not, no one’s is!

I never stated or implied any of this. Never even thought it. I don’t know where you’re getting this from.

Brandi United States Posted on 10/07/2003 at 07:17 PM

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..and I brought up the topic of children as an analogy. Although possibly not quite apples-to-apples, it seemed demonstrative of the concept. The actual topic has no bearing here.

Brock United States Posted on 10/07/2003 at 08:49 PM

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Chris, I responded to what you said only, and if you want to understand better my take on all the “sweetness and light” Christianity engenders read my post today under “Kent Hovind shows us why Creationists…“. I can’t make myself clearer than that.

Getting off subject..the reason I didn’t offer Les kind words regarding his Mom, even though I do wish her a complete and painless recovery, was because I have this fear of being perceived as insincere. It’s a personal hang-up. So I tend to save the personal support for those who will believe I truly mean it. That’s another reason why I automatically suspect your best intentions. I’ve met many who push concerned conversation just so they can instruct others and gain points with their God and feel better about themselves by evangelizing. I assume atheists provide more points than simple backsliders.

Do I believe you are sincere? - No. But I believe you think you are.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?“
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chris Canada Posted on 10/08/2003 at 06:00 PM

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Hey,

K…Brock…I never said that ‘everyone’ offers words of sentiment…I just said that because of the atmosphere I was in as a child, things people said, did, and what not….that is what I started to do….to the point that it became a natural habit/instinct.
And I DO mean it sincerely…I really wish Les’s mom the best of luck…if you really knew me….you would know….like I said before…this WebPage is typed and not orally spoken….therefore my tone of voice or facial expression cannot be implied….please…don’t think of me as some cheap little punk who wants her way and does so by brown-nosing…no…it’s not me….
...My motto is that actions speak louder than words…I’d rather show than talk…and I would love to….

But, Brock, Brandi, Les….if you have any questions about me or want to know anything..just ask….I’m not trying to make any enemies…and please do not imply any of these text messages to be spoken in a harsh, vulgar tone…

Alright…thanks…and if you want to start up a topic or discussion or anything….I’m all ears smile

Have a great week,

IGWT,

Chris

DB Canada Posted on 10/09/2003 at 12:17 AM

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Hey Chris,
Ya alot of people here can’t seem to fathom anyone being kind or caring without there being some secret reason behind it. They seem to really love hating. It’s sort of a depressing and insecure mentality if you ask me, but they seem to like it well enough, so what can you do.
Nice to see another Christian around here though!
Maybe you can join me in battle hahaha
just kidding guys.

Les United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 06:57 AM

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The more I read DB’s posts the more I’m beginning to think he’s just a troll seeing how long he can drag things out. Some of his comments are ridiculous even for a Creationist and he has a habit of not responding to points raised against his arguments. I’m beginning to wonder if there’s any point engaging him in conversation at all.

As for Chris, there’s probably not much you could relate to me that I haven’t heard before. The points you raised in your first response are the same points I’ve beaten to death in other threads with other believers. I was once a Christian and I abandoned that belief system a long time ago when I made the mistake of looking into it too deeply. You’ve said nothing so far to convince me that standpoint is incorrect. I appreciate you stopping by to participate, but as for questions I might have to ask, well, I don’t have any.

Why you believe is unimportant to me. I’ve heard thousands of different reasons people have to believe. Each one as valid as the next in most cases. I’ve heard countless tales of people who have personally experience God in their lives be that the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Islamic God or what have you and I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the people involved. I believe that they believe they experienced something, but that doesn’t mean I believe it actually happened anywhere outside of their minds. Just as I’ve met several dozen UFO Abductees and Big Foot Close Encounter types who also seem very sincere and seem to believe that what they claimed happened actually happened. Most of them even tend to have more proof than the average God believer, but I don’t think those things have actually happened either. Sincerity is nice, but it’s not evidence.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

DB Canada Posted on 10/09/2003 at 09:34 AM

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Ok Les, what is it that you want to know that I avoid answering?

Because you “dreamed” you were a christian at one point, never made you one. Just because you thought you were one and then realized “THE TRUTH”
doesn’t make you the all powerfull “experiencer of all things” thus giving you the deciding power of whether it’s true or not.
I would argue that you never did experience it, even when you thought you were.
All I’m saying is don’t bash christians just because you think you know how “fake” it is from your own experience, if you did experience it, you wouldn’t be an atheist today.

Brandi United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 10:00 AM

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Well, now there’s a point that is impossible to argue with!

[/snark]

He argues he never experienced it, and neither did/does anyone else. But that they are sincere in believing they did. I gather from his posts that he did everything prescribed necessary to experience full christian/religious submersion, including “truly wanting it with all his heart”. Are you saying God likes you better than Les? Or me? Maybe your God saw some glimmer of reason in our minds and decided we weren’t good candidates for assimilation.

I don’t suppose you want to tell us YOUR turning-point religious “experience”?

However, if it involves drugs and some stupor on the bathroom floor, I don’t want to hear it. That one is played out.

Les United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 10:17 AM

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And thus we come to the height of arrogance in your responses to date. Perhaps you are incapable of imagining how someone could go from a true believer to an atheist, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t possible or that it hasn’t happened. It’s a common and easy cop-out to claim that if I had been a “true” Christian I never would have become an atheist. If you have a real interest in others who have made that transition then I suggest picking up a copy of Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist by Dan Barker, formerly an Evangelist for 19 years who ended up an atheist.

I’ve never claimed to be an all-powerful anything nor that I have a lock on the one and only possible truth. I leave those claims to the like of yourself as you sit there in judgment of how “true” of a Christian I must have been in the past. Neither do I claim to have experienced all-things or that it gives me the “deciding power” which all others must abide by. I have declared that

based on my experiences, studies and the available evidence I have seen to date

that I have no good reason to believe in the existence of Gods or other Superior Supernatural Entities. Do I think I’m correct in my viewpoint? Of course I do. Am I perfect and incapable of being wrong? Absolutely not. It’s entirely possible that I could be wrong about the existence of Gods and I’ve admitted as much on more than one occasion, which is more than you’ve done to date. In your fevered reality the idea that there couldn’t be Gods is beyond consideration. You’ve made it clear that you cannot imagine how life could have any purpose or meaning without some outside entity giving it validation and direction. I have no problems considering the possibility that there could be Gods whereas it’s clear you can’t fathom how their non-existence is even possible let alone how probable it may be.

You are hypocritically condemning me for sins you are committing yourself as it’s clear from many of your responses that you feel you are the final arbiter on who is and isn’t a “true” Christian and on whether or not there is a God. You have consistently “bashed” non-believers, or anyone who disagrees with you for that matter, regardless of the merits of their arguments with snarky replies and simplistic counter-arguments. Anything you haven’t wanted to address you’ve ignored yet you never let an opportunity for an insulting quip to slip by. Pot. Kettle. You know the rest.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Eric Paulsen United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 11:33 AM

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...if you did experience it, you wouldn’t be an atheist today.

Okay, following DB’s logic:

1) I fell very much in love with a woman and we had a four year relationship that ended.
2) If it was actually love then we would still be together.
3) Because the relationship ended I was never actually in love.

Fairly simple logic and to an outside observer like DB and probably pretty clear cut, but since I was the one INVOLVED maybe I would be privy to information not readily available to him. For example I know how I felt, DB hasn’t got the slightest clue. He can make wild guesses or baseless accusations but what he can not do is actually KNOW. That would require that he had lived my life and as far as I am aware DB is not one of my multiple personalities.

Heads up DB, you are only making guesses based on your own world views and know precious little about the people you seem to think that you can read like a book. A more productive use of your time might be in getting to know yourself a little better.

Brandi United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 11:40 AM

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Because the relationship ended I was never actually in love.

I suspect he would argue just that! How old is he? He’s likely romaticized alot of things and drawn firm absolutes.

It’s easier that way. Don’t want to get all “thinky”.

Shaye United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 04:29 PM

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No one knows the thinks I think…

Shaye United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 04:29 PM

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No one knows the thinks I think…
Don’t go all Dr. Suess on me here!

Shaye United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 04:30 PM

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Damn….that post made it on?

chris Canada Posted on 10/09/2003 at 08:27 PM

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Hey everyone!!! How are you all?

Wow…I am behind in this conversation aren’t I…sorry….

Thanks for the kind words DB! It’s great that you’re a Christian :D ...keep on going!

Hey Les!...Question…How much have you studied into the Devil and his temptations….because I’m learning…and….well some interesting things….
        Places the Devil would/will be:
  - Tempting them, (placing wrong thoughts in their minds)
  - Tempting all kinds of people
  - Trying to tempt people (i.e. Christians) while they are in Church…YES in church…that is one of the most impotent places for a Christian to be tempted…he tries to alter the person by thoughts, so that they can think of things other than church and what’s going on there….
      Places the Devil won’t be
  - In clubs, raves, and such
  - Cult practices
  - And more
.............Why won’t he be there? Because the temptation/sin has already been started off, and is happening fittingly to him, so his purpose has already been done in clubs and raves and what not….Humans are already acting as idiots…so he doesn’t need to be there….he goes where he thinks it is needed, where he wants destruction to happen….
.............You know what I’ve noticed? The time when the devil strikes hardest is probably the turning point of a non-believer into a believer. (i.e. Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan is a good read)
......(sorry, tangent is I)....What I mean is that you may not have noticed, but at the time when you started caring to further your faith and decided to look more into the Bible…you were vulnerable…your mind was open…and the devil saw this, and he became ready to be rip it apart….
......It may have been more than that opinion that I have stated….I mean…You were not a ‘fake’ Christian, because, you had an interest to further your faith (which is awesome)...you just might have not anticipated the strength of your opponent…and because of that….possibly…is why you are now where you are…..
.........But this is just one of many opinions (or my opinion wink)...Because I do not know you, nor do I know how you think…I can only hypothesize…I’m just saying from past experiences, lessons, and such…this is what I’ve learned…..
.......And thanks for allowing me to participate…these webpages really allow you to get out your thoughts….and it helps….I should start one up to…...eventually smile
(P.S. tell me what you thought about the above opinion)


Hey Brandi! How are you? ....umm…concerning one of you points made to DB on October 9, 2003 12:00 PM ....I would like to say that we are all equal in God’s eyes…no one is favoured….He loves each and every one of us, unconditionally….(I know your going to have something to say so….feel free wink


Hey Les…that book….I will try to find it ...and read….reading is good…
Question….so you don’t think that there is a top being?...So do you think we came by chance? ...I know atheists believes that there is no God….ummm….could you explain why they/you/any other atheist thinks that? I never really found out…thanks..
...umm…so about there not being a top being… How about in a…. store…let’s say a Shopper’s Drug Mart, for example…there are the customers, trainees, employees, employers, assitant manager, head manager, vice-president, and president….isn’t there always a top? A point of no continual? Could we not place that example into there being an altimate? A God? Just a thought…. 

Well…..I’ve got to go now…..Thanks for hearing me out you guys…and I look forward to reply (hopefully sooner wink )

Have a great week!!!!

IGWT,

Chris

 

 

Brandi United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 08:53 PM

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So, Chris you were “strong” enough to overcome the Devil and his trickery, but Les was not. I was not. Or maybe you were just one of the lucky ones who was able to have their religious turning point scheduled at a time that the Devil was at another engagement.

Maybe he should publish his schedule in Outlook so we might better plan our religious conversions.

And the universe doesn’t run operate like a CVS Drug Store, thanks. If there is a First Cause, there’s no one with any authority in this world between myself and it.

Les United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 08:58 PM

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Hey Les!…Question…How much have you studied into the Devil and his temptations….because I’m learning…and….well some interesting things…

I haven’t studied him much since I became an atheist. Your question presumes the Devil exists and as I don’t believe God exists it’s probably safe to assume I don’t believe the Devil exists either. It’s a bit of a silly question, really.

………….Why won’t he be there? Because the temptation/sin has already been started off, and is happening fittingly to him, so his purpose has already been done in clubs and raves and what not….Humans are already acting as idiots…so he doesn’t need to be there….he goes where he thinks it is needed, where he wants destruction to happen…

OK, if you say so. Not being one to go to clubs, raves “and such” or cult practices (and more) I haven’t bumped into the Devil, but if I do I’ll tell him you said “hello.“

………….You know what I’ve noticed? The time when the devil strikes hardest is probably the turning point of a non-believer into a believer. (i.e. Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan is a good read)

Hmmm. He must’ve been busy back when I first became a Christian then. I don’t recall being bothered by him at the time.

……(sorry, tangent is I)….What I mean is that you may not have noticed, but at the time when you started caring to further your faith and decided to look more into the Bible…you were vulnerable…your mind was open…and the devil saw this, and he became ready to be rip it apart….
……It may have been more than that opinion that I have stated….I mean…You were not a ‘fake’ Christian, because, you had an interest to further your faith (which is awesome)…you just might have not anticipated the strength of your opponent…and because of that….possibly…is why you are now where you are…..
………But this is just one of many opinions (or my opinion )…Because I do not know you, nor do I know how you think…I can only hypothesize…I’m just saying from past experiences, lessons, and such…this is what I’ve learned…

Assuming for the moment that the Devil does exist then what your propose sound plausible enough. The problem arises from the fact that after I finished my first read-through of the Bible and started to have my doubts I didn’t sit idly by and let those doubts fester. I attempted to counsel with my Pastor and my church to see where I had erred. I also prayed to God to give me the insight to see through the clouds of doubt I had started to develop. I wasn’t happy about losing my faith, I thought there was something wrong with me. I also didn’t go from this initial doubt to atheism. I decided that perhaps the issue was with the Baptist denomination and decided to try some of the other sects of Christianity. That didn’t work out so I started looking at other religions to see if perhaps I had been on the wrong track to begin with. Eventually I ended up at a point where it all looked the same to me and I realized I hadn’t any reason to buy into any of it anymore.

There were lots of opportunities along the way, though, for God to shine his grace on me and help me to overcome any influence Satan may have had. I was left with the conclusion that either he was unconcerned with my gradual move toward atheism or he doesn’t exist to be concerned.

…….And thanks for allowing me to participate…these webpages really allow you to get out your thoughts….and it helps….I should start one up to……eventually
(P.S. tell me what you thought about the above opinion)

You’re certainly welcome to participate. The more the merrier. If you have the gumption to write on a regular basis then I whole heartedly recommend you start a webpage of your own.

Hey Les…that book….I will try to find it …and read….reading is good…
Question….so you don’t think that there is a top being?…So do you think we came by chance? …I know atheists believes that there is no God….ummm….could you explain why they/you/any other atheist thinks that? I never really found out…thanks..

I can’t speak for every atheist as, just like most Christians, we all have different stories on why we arrived at the philosophical stance we hold. I explained a little of my reason above. Former believer, read the Bible, started to lose faith, digged in deeper trying to gain understanding and ended up disillusioned with what I learned, prayed to God for help, got no discernible reply. As time passed and I considered how much evidence there was of God being a presence in my life along with my growing knowledge of the history of the Christian and other religions I found I had no good reason to continue to believe in the idea of a God or other supernatural explanation for reality other than wishful thinking.

Do I believe we arrived here by chance? Well I certainly don’t think our existence was pre-ordained so the answer would be yes. What are the chances life could happen by accident? Well, they’re 100 percent because here we are.

…umm…so about there not being a top being… How about in a…. store…let’s say a Shopper’s Drug Mart, for example…there are the customers, trainees, employees, employers, assitant manager, head manager, vice-president, and president….isn’t there always a top? A point of no continual? Could we not place that example into there being an altimate? A God? Just a thought…

On the surface that sounds like it makes sense, but just because humans have organized their societies in a top-down style doesn’t mean the Universe must also work in that way.

Our numbering system is called a “Base Ten System” because that’s how we count. The number Ten is represented by a 1 in the Tens Column and a 0 in the Ones Column. In essence that means there are only 10 numbers those being 0-9. Anthropologists think we have a Base Ten System for counting because we have ten digits on our hands. Does that mean the Base Ten System is the only way to count? Of course not. The computer you use in front of you uses a Base Two System of counting and uses only two numbers (0 and 1) to count. Who’s to say that if we had been born with 13 fingers that we wouldn’t use a Base Thirteen System of counting.

The point being that while we may have found it useful to do things a certain way that doesn’t imply that it’s the only way things can be done or that the Universe has similar requirements as human societies do. There are societies on this planet where there the top-down system is not used.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

DB Canada Posted on 10/09/2003 at 11:16 PM

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les, I know I have alot of responding to do but this jumped out at me.
“What are the chances life could happen by accident? Well, they’re 100 percent because here we are.“
Did you of all people say that???
You usually make somewhat logical sense from where you stand, but I’ve never heard anything like that from you before.
I don’t even know where to begin, first I could start shallow and say that’s as stupid as saying that because I draw a seven af hearts from a random deck of cards that the chances of me getting that card were 100%. “Oh look, here it is!“
But as far as the universe goes there was no “deck of cards” to begin with! Your giving power to the word “chance”, it has no power! It cannot create anything from nothing, it’s simply a word used to describe mathematical probability. If you start with absolutly nothing, then there is no amount of “chance” that will change that.
Even assuming there is no god, it’s still completly illogical. There is absolutly no mathematical probability or “chance” that SOMETHING can be a product of NOTHING, none.
In order for there to be something now, there would have had to be something always. That’s where God comes in.

Eric Paulsen United States Posted on 10/09/2003 at 11:40 PM

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I don’t know if anyone will be interested but somehow I found this link which takes you to a page with two quizzes. One is called What Do You Really Know About The Bible? and the other is What Do You Know About The Separation of State and Church?. I took the latter and scored 18/21 for a rank of Consitutional scholar, I plan on taking the bible one later but it has 50 questions and I am not up for that at 1:39 in the am.

Les United States Posted on 10/10/2003 at 05:41 AM

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DB I’m going to explain to you, once again, that I have never claimed that the universe started out from nothing. That is a claim you like to make repeatedly, but it is not what I have said.

I’ve explained this before elsewhere on this site, but I will repeat again for your benefit. We know that energy cannot be destroyed, it can only change form. Matter can be converted to energy and energy can be converted back into matter. Given this it’s logical to argue that the universe has always existed in one form or another. The Big Bang does not say the universe came from nothing. Trace it backward in time and it collapses into a singularity, an infinitely compressed point of energy. Energy is about as close to eternal as anything gets, but doesn’t require a God.

Now, if you’re finished cheer leading perhaps you could address some of the points raised recently.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

DB Canada Posted on 10/10/2003 at 01:53 PM

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Well less you’ve managed to completly evade addressing the comment you made earlier.
“What are the chances life could happen by accident? Well, they’re 100 percent because here we are.“

Probably the most illogical thing I’ve ever heard you say, do you have an explanation or something?
Come on, fill me in on how this is a wise statement.

Your favorite cheerleader, DB

Brandi United States Posted on 10/10/2003 at 02:01 PM

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DB, do you mean the chances of complex life as we know it being here by a series of “accidents”? Althought I think that word is loaded. It’s called “natural selection”

OR do you mean the chances of life occuring spontaneously from non-life?

Les United States Posted on 10/10/2003 at 02:18 PM

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Well less you’ve managed to completly evade addressing the comment you made earlier.

Pot. Kettle. Black. It seems to work for you so why shouldn’t I use the same tactic?

“What are the chances life could happen by accident? Well, they’re 100 percent because here we are.”

Probably the most illogical thing I’ve ever heard you say, do you have an explanation or something?
Come on, fill me in on how this is a wise statement.

Please explain to me why you think this is an illogical thing to say. If I flip a coin and you and I both watch it land heads up and you then ask me what I think the chances are that it woud’ve ended heads up I’d say the same damn thing.

Now, if you ask me what are the chances of it happening again I’d have a different answer.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

Brandi United States Posted on 10/10/2003 at 02:29 PM

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Alright, I’m going to jump on that grenade.

Les, can you explain the coin thing? I feel like I’m missing something obvious and ought to be ashamed. But I must know.

Were the chances 100% BEFORE you flipped the coin? I assume it was 50/50 at that point. Does actually flipping it and seeing the outcome CHANGE the initial probability?

Or is this symantics? A hole in the original question? “what I think the chances ARE that it WOULD HAVE ended heads up…“ (because it DID, it’s 100%)

Help me out. I don’t get it.

Les United States Posted on 10/10/2003 at 03:11 PM

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You got it. The last statement.

The fact that it has happened doesn’t change the initial odds, but then the initial odds probably aren’t as astronomical as we’re often led to believe anyway when you consider the size of the Universe.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

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