That’s just fucking sad! Although it is the only way a believer can win that argument. Well, if you call going to prison for a long long time winning.

Agreed--It is too sad but I must side with Les on this.  It could be anything to cause the unstable person to go over the edge.

i couldn’t agree with you more.  religion isn’t the issue here, it’s the fact that that guy is mentally unstable.  religion was just an excuse.  sad deal.

What a tragic story.  I would have to admit that if faced with the barrel of a shotgun I would profess belief in just about anything.

While this person was obviously mentally unstable, his Christian beliefs served only to fuel the insanity.  Sure there have been other things that have caused people to flip out but none to the degree and the frequency of religion.

I’m with you on this, too, Les.  There are, sadly, too many cases of nutcases out there to blame just on the Christians (or even the theists).

I can certainly admire someone who felt strongly enough for his beliefs to not recant—whether or not he felt in personal danger.

It isn’t religion that sends these folks over the edge, it is the insanity of True Belief. No matter if that belief is in God or Captain Kirk, True Belief is a psychosis of the most noxious sort. It’s worse than being in love (or hate)- although in some ways, it shares paramaters with it.

The bottom line is that people in such a psychotic state cannot be reasoned with, and cannot see the consequences of their actions. They only see an ‘infidel’ of one sort or another, an ‘other’ which must be either converted or killed.

Sunfell

Hi Les, Momma, and all,

I certainly respect your unease with my characterization of Christianity, but I would like to disagree. Sunfell’s take on it is closer to my own thoughts on the matter.

I understand that as non-religious and atheist folks we would want to be very careful with generalizing about a group of people because we have that very thing done to us on a much-too-regular basis. However, I do believe that unlike a person who is fixated on Grand Theft Auto or Butterfly collecting or what have you, religion - especially fundamentalist sects within religions like Christianity and Islam - actual encourage and excuse the martyr and the “pious lunatic”. Again unlike a video game or some other unhealthy fixation or obsession, religion claims to have truth about reality. GTA cannot make any similar claim, and they do not canonize a butterfly collector who takes out a rival etymologist for the greater good of his fellow butterfly collectors.

My point is that in many ways Christianity (and any other comparable fundamentalist religion that encourages the demonization of the unbeliever) is in fact the cause of religious insanity and psychosis, and not simply the enabler of an existing instability. I firmly believe that it creates instability, then excuses it’s excesses as “holy” and pious.

How many “holy men” were simply insane?

Well, that’s my take on it, in any case. I’d be willing to bet that cases of psychosis and serious disconnectedness with reality occur more often in people who are very religious, and not nearly as much in secular folks, but I could be wrong. I haven’t actually looked up any studies on it, and maybe my own biases are clouding my opinion. If so, then I’ll retract my opinion and publish another one that’s consistent with the facts.

But I don’t think that I’ll have to, to be honest. It has always seemed very evident to me.

It isn’t religion that sends these folks over the edge, it is the insanity of True Belief.

...and True Belief is the whole point of religion for many people.  Of course there are a few crazy people who think religion is about mercy, kindness, compassion, and so forth but they keep getting locked up.

Of course there are lots of ways to rationalize that True Belief and compassion are the same thing.  Like “Love the sinner and hate the sin,” a phrase which does not appear in the bible.

I think that True Belief and compassion are actually polar opposites. Think about it: one has to break free of the psychosis of TB to see that ‘other’ or ‘infidel’ as a human being and feel compassion and kindness for them. Christ himself even advocated it. He pointed to the moon of lovingkindness- in fact, said ‘love thy neighbor as yourself’, but people didn’t catch that part. Like the finger pointing at the moon, they ignored the moon, and worshipped the finger pointing at it. They did not take Christ’s teachings to heart- instead they worshipped Christ.

In my way of seeing things, there are no absolutes. Absolutes are physically impossible. But the attempt to create and maintain them within the human mind creates the seeds of insanity which engenders the psychosis of True Belief. When one attempts to cling to the impossible absolute, it destroys one’s sanity. Christ wanted people to let go of this absolutism. He advocated this numerous times. He even made bad examples of or condemned those True Believers who plagued him in his time. He called them hypocrites. He tried to warn us of this, but it was clear that his warnings went unheeded.

Sunfell

I wonder if all the trumpet players in the world would suddenly start beating up all the saxophone players… for not playing a true classical instrument.
I kicked my next door neighbor’s ass the other day cos he told me he ate macaroni pasta, you don’t eat macaroni, you should eat spaghetti.
I hate people who eat macaroni...They say it tastes different. I say that’s B.S.
Notice that most people who think that they KNOW the truth often the word “should” as a tool to emphasize their image of people Who know the right way of all things.
-You should get married.
-You should get a car.
-You should get your kid baptised !!!!
-You should believe in what I believe or else…

The ten commendments also uses that formula.

Dude, that is sad…
I am a teen aged Catholic, by the way. I think the story you told was another example of how some people don’t take life seriously. I don’t know anyone in their right mind who would harm another person for not believing in God these days.....

Just remember, you can’t take this situation and use it against other Christians. The man who shot the victim was not a good example for others (the guy was freaking mad!!). The Church does not support murder, nor does it support violence. The murderer was not acting Christian at ALL!.

I see Christian beliefs held as an indicator of degrading mental capacity. I think once you firmly believe in a character you’ve only read about but never met in the flesh (and no one else has either), you’re stretching the definition of sane.

I think once you accept that this missing entity commanded you to try to convince others to believe in him, you’re straddling the line between sanity and insanity.

I think once you believe this unviewable being told you to perceive someone else as an enemy of the faith or that this person deserves to be conquered or killed, you’re approaching megalomaniac status.

Remember Bush’s infamous remark?

“God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.”

I haven’t thought of this man as mentally healthy since I became aware he said this.

I mean, yes, there are levels of delusion, but most mental illnesses have the same types of events as warning signs, yet they aren’t usually seen as indicators of a god being involved. Once you call it god-inspired, it suddenly should be beyond suspicion, not warranting clinical diagnosis… Or should it?

I realize it’s hard to see those you love as unbalanced but sooner or later you have to accept that religion motivates people to do crazy things, then it provides amnesty.

This is just sad.

The strongest human motivation is fantasy.

“...It isn’t religion that sends these folks over the edge, it is the insanity of True Belief...”

Do you truly believe that?

“...No matter if that belief is in God or Captain Kirk, True Belief is a psychosis of the most noxious sort...”

Is that a true belief?

“...The bottom line is that people in such a psychotic state cannot be reasoned with, and cannot see the consequences of their actions. They only see an ‘infidel’ of one sort or another, an ‘other’ which must be either converted or killed...”

Another true belief?

My point is, we all believe some things to be true. You seem to be ok with people who hold true beliefs that match yours. But those who hold true beliefs that cobtradict yours are psychotics.

Quit being so self righteous. Have you never encountered an evangelical Atheist? Believe me, they are weird. Or perhaps you can’t recognise one when you one.

Anyone notice anything odd about that story?
Neither the name of the perp nor the name of the victim are given.
It’s not linked to any original source.
Searches of regional newspapers in Michigan turn up no related story.
Web searchs turn up no related story.
And the final line of the report:

“...At the police station, the suspect commented that he believed there is a God.
Then, looking at the floor, he seemed to have second thoughts: “Maybe there’s not,” he said....”

Sounds more like the ending of a fictional short story than a police press statement.
Hmmm...are we going to bite?

Brock -
You wrote:

“...Remember Bush’s infamous remark?

“God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.�?...”

When and where did Bush say that. Or did you...er...read it on the internet....?

Sunfell:
You say:
“...Think about it: one has to break free of the psychosis of T(rue) B(elief) to see that ‘other’ or ‘infidel’ as a human being and feel compassion and kindness for them....”

Oh, really?
So you’ve decided that it’s not possible for one to truly believe in something, and at the same time believe that those who oppose you are worthy of respect and tolerance?
Think again. True belief and compassion sit very together. In fact, believeing in compassion IS a true belief.
NOT having any beliefs is more likely to kill compassion.

You say:
“...They did not take Christ’s teachings to heart- instead they worshipped Christ...”
Christ claimed to be God (object of worship) in the flesh, that’s why he was executed (blasphemy). Guess you didn’t catch that part.

You say:
“...In my way of seeing things, there are no absolutes...”

You’ve just claimed an absolute.

“...Absolutes are physically impossible...”

You’re claiming another absolute. Ever heard of self-contradiction?

For future reference, quit trying to deny absolutes, because the denial of an absolute is the claiming of another absolute. The best you can do is say you don’t know, or remain silent.  Even saying you don’t know is claiming a truth (an absolute).

You say:
“...But the attempt to create and maintain them (absolutes) within the human mind creates the seeds of insanity which engenders the psychosis of True Belief...”

That’s a wild claim, since everything you have written here is the claiming of absolutes, including the statement above. Do you believe your above claim to to be true? If so, you’re claiming an abslolute. And a true belief. Do you not know whether it’s true? Then why are you presenting it as a truth?

“...When one attempts to cling to the impossible absolute, it destroys one’s sanity...”
Are you clinging to that absolute?

You say:

“...Christ wanted people to let go of this absolutism. He advocated this numerous times...”

Where? In which book? According to who? Chapter, verse? Or did he tell you this in a dream?

“...He even made bad examples of or condemned those True Believers who plagued him in his time..He called them hypocrites...”

No, he called the Pharisees and Sadducees hypocrites, which was appropriate in that context. It had nothing to do with them having “True Beliefs”.

“.. He tried to warn us of this, but it was clear that his warnings went unheeded...”

He warned us to let go of absolutism?
If he was saying that absolutism was wrong, he would have been stating an absolute. And heeding someone who tries to deny absolutes while stating absolutes would be dumb.

Jon - The quote comes from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

According to Abbas, immediately thereafter Bush said: “God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.”

I saw a thread on Snopes explaining the infamous Bush remark.  He said it, all right, but to an Arabic-speaking reporter who wrote it down and it was then translated for publication in the Moscow Times.  A different version of it (slightly less incindiary) appeared in a Jerusalem newspaper.

One version: “God told me...”
Another version: “God gave me the inspiration to...”

Here’s a reference on Washington Post.

Jon’s been busy this evening, but is clearly confused on the meaning of a “true belief.”

As for the news item not being real because he couldn’t find it in a Michigan newspaper, dude, I fucking linked to the Detroit Free Press article about it. But hey, if you insist, here’s another link to the local NBC affiliate’s news blurb on it.

“...Jon’s been busy this evening, but is clearly confused on the meaning of a “true belief.�?

I have been busy, but it was morning where I am.

I stand corrected about the article, I didn’t see your “fucking” link, as you call it. Where I am we just call it a link.

Anyway, can you enlighten me what a true belief is?
I though a true belief was a belief which one holds which happens to be true, i.e. it corresponds to an external, objective reality.

Does “true belief” mean something other than a belief which is true?

Correction, I did see your “fucking” link, that was the one I quoted in my response, in case you didn’t notice. The one where I said the style at the end was like fiction.
Thanks for the NBC link anyway.

About the Bush quote - it’s one thing to be gullible but I just don’t buy it. This is classic internet hearsay.

It was *apparently* reported by Abu Mazen (neutral source?) while he was meeting with Pelestinian militants (?), written down by an Abu Mazen assistant (n Arabic), somehow “acquired” by an Israeli newspaper, and then re-translated into English.

Bush is very aware of the usual “religious nut” accusations, and he plays that card pretty carefully - as would have been noted in last night’s press conference.

In the run-up to an election, there is simply no way that Bush would utter something as politically suicidal as “God told me to strike...” We would have never heard the end of it from the Kerry camp.

By the way, both “Washington Post” (a blogger, not the Washington Post newspaper!) and Snopes effectively disclaim the quote by stating the following:
“...Even then, there’s uncertainty. After all, this is Abu Mazen’s account in Arabic of what Bush said in English, written down by a note-taker in Arabic, then back into English.”

About the NBC affiliate link to the murder in Taylor, it gives no hint of any motive, let alone a religious one.

So all we have is a single source, a rather imaginative report written by a certain Joel Thurtell. I’ve contacted him to ask for the nature of his source (whether it’s third-party press release or direct police statement), we’ll see if he replies. Maybe it’s for real, maybe not.

Am I too cynical about web-stories? i hope so. Where possible, it’s better to believe true things than false things.