All the preperation in the world doesn’t mean jack if those responsible don’t follow through. Something that Mayor Nagin failed to do thus resulting in the uneeded death of thousands.

Again, the responsibility for evacuating NO was with the local authorities not with the Feds.

Something else in the vein of responsibility (who for what): Most of the people in the US do NOT have mayor Nagin OR governor Blanco as their representatives, because the live neither in NO nor in Louisiana. So the one they CAN hold accountable for his share in the disaster IS… you guess it. I think it fits. Bush didn’t cause the coming storm. But he certainly ignored it.

Sorry for triple-dipping.

One of the biggest problems with American culture is this penchant for witch hunts.  Put down the pitchfork—and pick up a friggin shovel and get to work.

You err. That is human nature, not at all US-specific. The good part is that in democracies, all the attacked political party has to fear (whether guilty of the accusations or not) is getting booted from office.

Bush didn’t cause the coming storm. But he certainly ignored it.

How do you figure? He declared a national emergency before the storm’s arrival. He had thousands of FEMA personel in place ready and waiting to go in on a recovery and rebuilding operation. When it became apparent that the local authorities did not do their job, Bush stepped up and instigated the refitting from recovery and rebuilding to a search and rescue. That is a huge undertaking.

Face it, there are plenty of valid reasons to rail against Bush throughout his term but this isn’t one of them. Like all Pesidents he is the executive officer of a system. The system is a ponderous, overly compartmentalized one. That’s government for you.

I do wonder what you have to do to get fired in the Bush administration, though.

Nah, he’ll hand out medals for this.

The whole erosion thing has been going on for so long, it’s like growing up under a dormant volcano.  The concept of it happening exists intellectualy, but people stop believing it’ll happen in THEIR lifetime.  Efforts to control erosion have been going on for decades, so I think that there’s also the idea that somebody will come up with something to control it.  I grew up in southwest Louisiana, and I’ve heard it all my life.  You get desensitized to it, especially when you have just the smaller hurricanes coming in.  Andrew was the only hurricane I ever evac’d for in 20 years.

Even if the ACoE were able to build the levees they wanted, it doesn’t mean shit when they break. 

One thing they SHOULD do when rebuilding: make sure at least one major road going into the city to the Superdome and convention center is built high enough to not get flooded, and strong enough to stay up.  Not to mention stocking those places with enough food and water in preparation for the storm. 

They talk about the delay in getting response teams ready and how it’s not good to have loaded trucks sitting on the roads lest they get caught in the storm.  Why they didn’t have La Nat’l Guard mounted up and waiting, out of the storms way, in Lake Charles, ready to roll across I-10 to New Orleans?

sigh.

Someone who has sided mostly with the left says “gee, maybe you guys have been right about Bush all along� and the first response, instead of reaching out basically calls him an idiot for not noticing sooner.

Thanks.

Not from me, mate.  I’m a godless liberal commie-hippie pinko for whom hanging is too good (or something, I forget what the currently fashionable term for us is) and, frankly, the degree to which the federal government has screwed this up has suprised even me.

It’s utterly crazy.  I don’t know, literally have no idea, how you can get this kind of thing so wrong.  It’s the United States of America, and people were turning away the Red Cross, people didn’t get out for five days.  There are professional organisations all around the world who are prepped and ready to come in and respond with expertise in flooding and disaster recovery, hell, all “Brownie” needed to do was hammer on State to let them all in and get some guy who wasn’t a horse lawyer to co-ordinate them.  As it is, the response was not to work out what to do, but to circle the wagons and put all the effort into working out how to prevent the damage being done to the Feds’ reputation through spin and PR.

I thought Bush 53 would do better than this.  Even if those at the top, I figured, were self-serving rich-kids, the necessities of democracy are such that the civil servants below you normally get the job done.  If you restructure the government and put disaster recovery where it belongs, in with stopping terrorism, you’ve got the framework for a top-to-bottom efficient system.  In hurricane season, this kind of thing should be expected and prepared for.  That’s the point of delegation.  You put someone in charge of something, and then you can go on vacation and buy shoes, because that’s their job, and if you’ve picked right then they do that job.  With 36 hours notice you can get a lot of things on standby just in case.

People are keen to blame Nagin for not evacuating, and believe me when I say that anything this guy got wrong, he needs to be held accountable for just as much.  But what would have happened if terrorists had, say, blown out the levees?  Does it look like anyone would have had a handle on the situation?

Important issue, that, I think.  If you’re a terrorist watching this on the news, are you thinking “man, there’s no point bombing those Americans, they get their shit together straight away”?  Or does this whole thing give the impression that the USA can’t find its own ass with both hands, at every level of government, and that its disaster management policies are hopeless?  That’s important.

So, you know, I’m as shocked as you.  I’m no Bush fan, but the administration has even amazed me this last week, so I don’t blame anyone for being pushed over the edge by this display and not being pushed sooner.  Hell, I lived in the south for a while (I never made it to NO, though… bastard too late now, ain’t it?) and I’ve got a lot of respect for American Conservatism.  Hell, two of my good drinking buddies (who I don’t get to drink with enough because one lives in Texas and one in Idaho) are Bush voters.  I understand the intellectual tradition and, although I can disagree with some details, think it’s a justified position to hold. And, man, Bush is an embarrassment to that tradition, and with every new fuck up he shows me a little more that he needs to be jettisoned so that the real conservatives who know how to take some responsibility can become the voice of the party again.

So, no, there’s no judgement coming here.  It’s hard to make the jump, and I hope, for the sake of your party, that you can work with some people to clear out the rot at the top.  Good luck to ya, man.

Why they didn’t have La Nat’l Guard mounted up and waiting, out of the storms way, in Lake Charles, ready to roll across I-10 to New Orleans?

Good question. Again, yet another failure of local officials. When I say local I’m talking state and city.

Wow!  When I first looked at this thread it was empty; now lots o’ stuff.  Wish we had a “subscribe to this threadâ€? feature.  Is that possible, Les? (***Dave has it)

Technically, yes, but you have to comment to use it. It’s that little check box under the comment box. Currently there’s no way to subscribe without commenting. I’ve put in a feature request for it, though.

1.  Just a study on the feasibility of a system capable of withstanding a Cat 5 would take years…building it would take years (maybe decades more).  As I recall, it was scientifically proven that Nawlins was under sea-level “a couple of yearsâ€? before the current administration took over.  Anyone who “willfullyâ€? remains in the path of a Cat 5 is demented.

2.  By the way…

Category Five Hurricane**—Devastating

Wind Speed
Greater than 155 mph (135kt) Greater than F3.0

Catastrophic Damage: Shrubs and trees are blown down; all signs are down. Considerable damage to roofs of buildings. Very severe and extensive window and door damage occurs. Complete failure of roof structures occurs on many residences and industrial buildings, and extensive shattering of glass in windows and doors occurs. Some complete buildings fail. Small buildings are overturned or blown away. Complete destruction of mobile homes occurs. 

Storm Surge
Greater than 18 ft (5.5m) Less than 920mb<27.17IN)

Major damage occurs to lower floors of all structures located less than 15 ft (4.6 m) above sea level and within 500 yards (457 m) of the shoreline. Low-lying escape routes inland are cut by rising water 3-5 hours BEFORE the hurricane center arrives. Major erosion of beaches occurs. Massive evacuation of residential areas on low ground within 5 to 10 MILES (8-16 km) of the shoreline may be required! 

From the NOAA website

3. By my estimation, the only way to survive a Cat 5 is to get the hell out!!!  Maybe the meaning of mandatory evacuation isn’t clearly understood, but what is implied (in Florida anyway) is, “Leave because we may not be able to rescue you for days!â€?

4.  The Corps Commander of the Corps of Engineers, Lt Gen Strock, says the current system was put into place with the assumption that an event like Katrina would happen every 200-300 years.  They felt they had an adequate level of protection.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1476752/posts

And of course here is one of my USAF “war stories� to illustrate a point:

Once upon a time, when the mean old Russians were threatening to take over the German beer and cuckoo clock industries, I deployed with my squadron from England to Germany.  The base had several hardened aircraft shelters (HAS); enough for about ¾ of our jets.  These shelters are gigantic steel-reinforced concrete structures that could protect 2 fighter planes.  The remaining jets operated out of revetments; 3-sided walled structures with no roof.  I had to work in the revetments, while most of my colleagues were safe from the elements (and 250 kilogram Soviet fragmentation bombs) in the HASs.  The HASs could take direct hits from 250 kg bombs.  A bomb detonating 100 feet away from a revetment would have left a big smokin’ hole where an airplane used to be and reduce me to a pile of hair teeth and eyeballs.

So what’s the moral of this story?  Is it:

The Air Force doesn’t care about ¼ of its equipment or people…

Or is it:

It was an acceptable risk.  One has to balance risk with available resources…

Me and Pat Robertson…voices of reason in troubled times!

Thank you, McDuff. Really, thank you very much. I was beginning to feel even more alone than normal.

It’s funny, I ended up at this site a couple of years ago because I felt so idealogically alone. I’m not a Republican, I’m a Libertarian, but I am a conservative in most respects. I am also an atheist and that is, apparently, a very odd combination.

I voted for GW in 2000 for a multitude of reasons. The first was that I thought I was getting a fiscal conservative. So much for that one, huh? But I liked his tax plan, I liked what he said about the education system and I intensely disliked Al Gore. So I voted for GW and was reasonably happy with him. I liked the tax rebates and the tax cuts. Then we had Sept 11.

Without going into too much detail, I like most of what he’s done is response to that situation. The only qualm I had was about the reasons given to go into Iraq. I would have preferred that he simply stated that Iraq was a sponser of terrorism (funding the families of suicide bombers in Israel) and left it at that. The whole bit about the WMD’s off felt off to me.

I wasn’t happy with his domestic agenda, though. He spent way too much and frankly, he spoke way too often about God. Still, he seemed content to focus on the war and not push domestic policy too hard. So I was fine with him as President.

But, I never felt comfortable with most of his other supporters. They all seemed to think the man was perfect and if you liked one part of his agenda you had to like all of it. Likewise, his opponents dismissed anything I thought or said instantly as invalid because I supported Bush. Another case of all or nothing.

Then I found SEB. A place I finally felt comfortable. Sure, I often disagreed with those around me on various things, but I always felt that the regulars here at least respected my opinions and were willing to exchange ideas.

Then I submitted this post and, well, you can see the result.

Anyway, thank you again for your response.

If it makes any difference, I posted your submission because I do respect your opinions.

For the record I should say that as much as I’d love to see him impeached I really don’t think it’s likely or would solve a whole helluva lot. If impeached we’d just end up with Cheny as President for the remaining term and I don’t honestly think that would be much of an improvement.

I think you provide an important balance here, KPG, and I hope you’ll continue to contribute.

Thank you, Les, it does make a difference.

I intend to stick around, don’t worry on that score, and I’ll continue to contribute. I’m just a little bit astonished at some of the responses this post has drawn.

I’m not sure he should be impeached, either. That’s why there’s a “?” in the title of the original post. But something needs to happen.

Impeachment?  Nah… waste of our time, and as Les said, will only get us Dick’d for our trouble.

My vote for GW’s punishment would be a ball-gag, a rather harsh mistress with a very large strap-on, and a pay-per-view live webcast, with all proceeds going directly to help the victims of Katrina. At $4.95 per, I’ll bet we could raise a few million bucks in no time!

There I go, thinking like a pornographer again, heh.

KPatrickGlover,

When you say that you’re a little bit astonished at some of the responses I’m not sure exactly what you mean. I haven’t seen anything overly confrontational or harsh.

Nothing wrong with a different take on the same situation.

Not from you, Daniel. You simply disagree with me and we’ve been arguing it out, nothing suprising there at all. I was referring to a couple of posts from people who basically agree with me.

I said:

Bush didn’t cause the coming storm. But he certainly ignored it.

Daniel said:

How do you figure? He declared a national emergency before the storm’s arrival. He had thousands of FEMA personel in place ready and waiting to go in on a recovery and rebuilding operation.

Fist of, I was talking about ‘the coming storm’ in the sense of ‘Hurricanes are kinda common over there, so people - including the president, where involved as befits his position - SHOULDA acted before. If they did not, they certainly shouldn’t act all aggrieved if someone calls them on it.

“Lets not get political over it!”

Damn it - if the deaths of thousands and the destruction of a major city are NOT fit a fit matter for politics, WHAT IS? The proceedings of your neighborhood bridge club?

Also, while I am not informed well enough about the exact when-how-many-where of the rescue efforts, it appears to me to be the general consensus that National Guard etc… were present maybe by day 5. Later in some days. Emergency services that take that long to appear should not be called thus. No matter the sacrifice of their individual components (soldiers, rescue workers), their effort is already too late for many.

Later in some days.

Should be ‘later in some places’. And maybe its day 4. Its really not important. Anything beyond 2-3 days is way too long, especially since the storm didn’t just appear out of thin air…

Busy little beavers aren’t we?  Maybe Bush should have deployed thousands of beavers before the storm to increase the strength of the levees.  That sure didn’t happen along with countless other things.

My point is while the ACE says a lack of funding was not a contributing factor in this disaster, they also state that the evacuation plan as drafted was correctly followed.  I know for a fact that government transportation and school busses were used to evacuate because they’re all over my city.

When a disaster of this magnitude is en-route there’s only so much local governments can do and in a state as small and as poor as LA there’s only so much the state government can go.

That’s where federal authorities and we as nation come into play.  Sadly, the last hope for survival these people had was tied up in some political bureaucracy.

After 9/11 the HSA agency absorbed all national emergency response planning.  I hate to think how their response would have been if it would have been an unanticipated terrorist attack instead of a hurricane with half a week’s warning.

All of blame cannot be placed squarely on Bush’s shoulders but I sure would like to see a good chunk of it stuffed down his throat.

Anyone who voted for Bush is a fucking moron, and you can hold yourselves partially responsible for every fuckup and every murder perpetrated by his administration.

You make me sick.

Anyone who voted for Bush is a fucking moron, and you can hold yourselves partially responsible for every fuckup and every murder perpetrated by his administration.

You make me sick.

MoveOn.troll

What Ragman said.  I started to write a detailed response to hemebond’s little bit of trollery last night but gave up - why bother? 

I remember being really worked up over the Reagan/Carter election but for the life of me, I can’t remember which way I voted. (!) Time and hindsight have erased the certainty of what I did - a reflection in the neurology of political memory. 

I know plenty of intelligent people who voted for Bush - some in my office.  I don’t understand what they saw in him but that’s a very different thing from assessing them so negatively.

The sets of Bush voters and Gore voters surely both contain their share of fucking morons.

Yeah, let’s start Troll name calling.
Case in point, American Witch Hunters abound.

I still do not understand where the legal, ethical, and moral conscious of a country is when it is ok to cause death, hardship, and manipulate the economy for personal gains, yet it is horrible to consider an attempt to keep a sexual indiscretion private?

What is going on?  People are being injured for no good reason.  The price of oil is being artificially manipulated (Katrina is just another example of this).

A forensic audit of publicly available earnings should be able to clearly identify who is benefiting financially from some of the “poorâ€? decision making.  Oh right, the accounting can not be trusted either because that is all suspect after Worldcom and Enron.

I don’t have a better solution, but your should be consistant.

The price of oil is being artificially manipulated (Katrina is just another example of this).

Sorry, I think you’re dead wrong on this.  The price of oil is just going where it’s going because of simple market forces.  If anything, the US government has been keeping it artificially low for the last fifty years.

If you’re concerned about it, I recommend looking more at Gov Brian Schweitzer’s plan to convert coal into clean oil, and writing your congressman to try and get behind it.

Sorry, the price of gas is going the way it is because there is not yet a viable alternative.  Decisions have definately been made to secure the supply and to control it.  When OPEC was in control it was those bad guys, but now that some big american business is in control it’s ok?

I agree alternatives are on the horizon, There are many alternatives, but with the ability to use an electrical delivery system you could forgo the centralized processing and just have a machine that made fuel in your garage overnight.

Your article does not mention that it requires some fossil fuel to make this “clean” fossil fuel.  Sounds just like more manipulation to me. 

Alternatively, NASA has tested a clean burning fuel who’s consumables are electricity, carbon and water.  There are better alternatives that do not require fossil fuels, but the political will and big money is just not behind it.