Theocracy: A Beginning

Posted by THEOCRAT on Monday, December 06, 2004 at 06:48 PM. Read 5804 times. Tags: ,
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Some personal info about me before we begin.  I am a born again Christian that believes the Bible is the inspired word of God.  This entire article is written from such a perspective that the Bible is entirely true.  It’s only been about six months since I’ve given up on human governance.  Before then I was following the relgious right like a good little boy.  I began to be disconcerted with politics when I joined the Protest Warrior bulletin board.  Reading the threads on that board the political discussions were food fights.  No organization and both sides had several points they weren’t addressing and it would always dissolve into name calling.  I saw several good leftist arguments that I had never heard before and no one was addressing.  All through high school I read World Net Daily almost religiously.  I debated anyone who took up the issue and always won because in high school even the leftists aren’t very well informed.

College came and I was still vehemently against the left.  I met people I never dreamed could exist.  Leftist Christians.  Who knew?  One day while defending the merits of George Bush I began to notice that my friend’s voice and my voice were getting louder and louder.  He eventually gave up the argument and started to walk out of the room.  I followed him into the hall continuing to shout praises to Bush.  When I finally calmed down I reflected on my behavior toward my brother in Christ.  Needless to say I felt really guilty.  Brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to build each other up not tear each other down and especially not on something as meaningless as politics.

I eventually got around to asking myself where did Christ stand on the political compass and how should that affect me?  I began to study government structures in the Bible and how Christ and other disciples interacted with their authorities.  I started with observing Jesus interaction with the Pharisees and looking at the one political question he was asked.

Matthew 22:15-21
(15) Then the Pharisees went away and planned to trap Jesus into saying the wrong thing.  (16) They sent their disciples to him along with Herod’s followers. They said to him, “Teacher, we know that you tell the truth and that you teach the truth about the way of God. You don’t favor individuals because of who they are.  (17) So tell us what you think. Is it right to pay taxes to the emperor or not?” (18) Jesus recognized their evil plan, so he asked, “Why do you test me, you hypocrites?  (19) Show me a coin used to pay taxes.” They brought him a coin.  (20) He said to them, “Whose face and name is this?” (21) They replied, “The emperor’s.” Then he said to them, “Very well, give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, and give God what belongs to God.”

Christ is giving an answer that recognizes God as the ultimate authority.  If he said simply to pay taxes the Pharisees would have charged him with not giving to God what is God’s.  If he had said do not pay taxes then the Pharisees would have charged him with disobeying the authority.  The Pharisees were expecting a yes or no answer.  Christ side stepped their intentions by telling them both are important.  The fact that this is the only situation he was confronted with a political question (to our knowledge) also is indicative that his concern was with people more than it was with the authorities.

Another passage I studied in search for Biblical ideals for government would be the Acts churches.

Acts 2:42-47
(42) The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.  (43) A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles.  (44) All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other.  (45) From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.  (46) The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other’s homes and shared their food.  (47) At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group.

Acts 4:23-37
(23) When Peter and John were released, they went to the other apostles and told them everything the chief priests and leaders had said.  (24) When the apostles heard this, they were united and loudly prayed to God, “Master, you made the sky, the land, the sea, and everything in them.  (25) You said through the Holy Spirit, who spoke through your servant David (our ancestor), ‘Why do the nations act arrogantly? Why do their people devise useless plots?  (26) Kings take their stand. Rulers make plans together against the Lord and against his Messiah.’ (27) “In this city Herod and Pontius Pilate made plans together with non-Jewish people and the people of Israel. They made their plans against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.  (28) Through your will and power, they did everything that you had already decided should be done.  (29) “Lord, pay attention to their threats now, and allow us to speak your word boldly.  (30) Show your power by healing, performing miracles, and doing amazing things through the power and the name of your holy servant Jesus.” (31) When the apostles had finished praying, their meeting place shook. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God boldly.  (32) The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.  (33) With great power the apostles continued to testify that the Lord Jesus had come back to life. God’s abundant good will was with all of them.  (34) None of them needed anything. From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money (35) to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it.  (36) Joseph, a descendant of Levi, had been born on the island of Cyprus. The apostles called him Barnabas, which means “a person who encourages.” (37) He had some land. He sold it and turned the money over to the apostles.

Acts 6:1-7
(1) At that time, as the number of disciples grew, Greek-speaking Jews complained about the Hebrew-speaking Jews. The Greek-speaking Jews claimed that the widows among them were neglected every day when food and other assistance was distributed.  (2) The twelve apostles called all the disciples together and told them, “It’s not right for us to give up God’s word in order to distribute food.  (3) So, brothers and sisters, choose seven men whom the people know are spiritually wise. We will put them in charge of this problem.  (4) However, we will devote ourselves to praying and to serving in ways that are related to the word.” (5) The suggestion pleased the whole group. So they chose Stephen, who was a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and they chose Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, who had converted to Judaism in the city of Antioch.  (6) The disciples had these men stand in front of the apostles, who prayed and placed their hands on these seven men.  (7) The word of God continued to spread, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem grew very large. A large number of priests accepted the faith.

These societies were basically theocratic societies.  They devoted their time to sudying and growing in God.  No concern was given to the activities of the king or the government.  They had the good will of the people which likely means they were in no way shape or form coming across as overbearing or forcing their religion or forcing their politics, etc.  It seems to me this happens by being respectful of people’s opinions, talking about religion in casual conversation when it comes up and not trying to bring it up to ‘save’ them, and most importantly practicing what is preached.

Theocracy was the original government of Israel until the people decided a human leader, they could see, would be better than a flawless god.

Exodus 18:13-26
(13) The next day Moses was settling disputes among the people, and he was kept busy from morning till night.  (14) When Jethro saw everything that Moses had to do, he asked, “What is all this that you are doing for the people? Why are you doing this all alone, with people standing here from morning till night to consult you?” (15) Moses answered, “I must do this because the people come to me to learn God’s will.  (16) When two people have a dispute, they come to me, and I decide which one of them is right, and I tell them God’s commands and laws.” (17) Then Jethro said, “You are not doing this right.  (18) You will wear yourself out and these people as well. This is too much for you to do alone.  (19) Now let me give you some good advice, and God will be with you. It is right for you to represent the people before God and bring their disputes to him.  (20) You should teach them God’s commands and explain to them how they should live and what they should do.  (21) But in addition, you should choose some capable men and appoint them as leaders of the people: leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. They must be God-fearing men who can be trusted and who cannot be bribed.  (22) Let them serve as judges for the people on a permanent basis. They can bring all the difficult cases to you, but they themselves can decide all the smaller disputes. That will make it easier for you, as they share your burden.  (23) If you do this, as God commands, you will not wear yourself out, and all these people can go home with their disputes settled.” (24) Moses took Jethro’s advice (25) and chose capable men from among all the Israelites. He appointed them as leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens.  (26) They served as judges for the people on a permanent basis, bringing the difficult cases to Moses but deciding the smaller disputes themselves.

1 Samuel 8
(1) When Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel.  (2) The name of his firstborn son was Joel; the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba.  (3) The sons didn’t follow their father’s example but turned to dishonest ways of making money. They took bribes and denied people justice.  (4) Then all the leaders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah.  (5) They told him, “You’re old, and your sons aren’t following your example. Now appoint a king to judge us so that we will be like all the other nations.” (6) But Samuel considered it wrong for them to request a king to judge them. So Samuel prayed to the LORD.  (7) The LORD told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me.  (8) They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt-leaving me and serving other gods.  (9) Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.” (10) Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the LORD had said.  (11) Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king: He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.  (12) He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.  (13) He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.  (14) He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.  (15) He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.  (16) He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle, and your donkeys for his own use.  (17) He will take a tenth of your flocks. In addition, you will be his servants.  (18) “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The LORD will not answer you when that day comes.” (19) But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king!  (20) Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out to war, and fight our battles.” (21) When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the LORD.  (22) The LORD told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.” Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go back to your own cities.”

God’s original intention was to provide the needs of His creation.  But as the creation rejects Him they replace His leadership as well.  God intended to provide for Adam and Eve so they wuldn’t ever have to work, but they disobeyed His one command so God made it so he would have to work for a living from the Earth to get by.  Noticing the progression of structure in the Bible from God directly ruling, to having judges, to having kings, I recognize that the more human involvement there is in government structure the farther we get from being able to discern God’s will.  I propose democracy is the least of all ideologies because putting the power to judge and legislate in the hands of the corrupt masses only furthers corruption.

Finally the last scripture that gives me a desire to understand a theocracy is because according to the account John provides in Revelation there will be one when Christ comes back to reign for a millenium.

Revelation 20:4-6
(4) Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.  (5) (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead.  (6) Happy and greatly blessed are those who are included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:3-7
(3) I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God’s home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God.  (4) He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.” (5) Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” (6) And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.  (7) Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.

Theocracy was the original governing ideology of the Earth.  It is the governing ideology of Heaven.  It will be the governing ideology of Earth again.  I hope to live long enough to see it reinstated some day.

So now I have provided quite the Biblical background for what it was, is and will be, but practically it’s hard to understand what it may look like to the common citizen of such a government.  I am not greatly educated on the differences between socialism and communism or I could state that it looks like one or the other.  It will be a utopian society with minimal government structure, just enough to make sure those in need get appropriate care.  A government headed by Christ can not be selfish or greedy or unfair.  The only one that should have absolute power to rule is the one that currently holds it.  The one who should be allowed to judge should be the only one with an omniscient standing.  Christ is flawless and can not be the cause of corrupt government.  Communism and socialsim don’t work because the guy in charge doesn’t want to work his butt off for a wage the lowest worker gets paid for with much less effort.  However under theocracy, people become concerned with the well being of others before themselves and the higher up the government chain of command the more so that becomes true.  Utopian society has one flaw that keeps it from working and that is the selfish nature of humans.  Theocracy takes care of this problem.

Adam Smith’s theories changed the face of economic practice.  Laissez-faire economics, as time has proven IMO, has done little more than encourage social caste systems and poverty.  Eventually someone figures out how to take advantage of the system and we get monopolies because no one tried to stop the selfish desires of an ambitious few.  I remember the points of relevance made in the movie “A Beautiful Mind” about John Nash’s theory.  While I haven’t read the theory myself what I got from the movie is that the best thing for the economy is not free competition but cooperation.  Do what is best for the group and you will get off better than you would most likely than by competing.  I believe charity is the means to the end of poverty, not welfare or legislation.  People giving the abundance they have of their own free will to be distributed to the needy is the best solution.  In theocracy it would seem you would worry about people still being selfish in nature, but as the leadership provides an example to live by and they have a god they desire to please, they will desire to give what they can out of their own free will.  No one will force them or persecute them if they don’t, but they will eventually choose to because it encourages the growth of society better than anything else.

So how would I say such seemingly impractical beliefs influence my every day life?  It actually affects my life in many ways.  Most obviously I don’t support human governance.  I don’t vote or endorse any politician because I don’t want to associate my moral values with the actions of anyone else.

Psalms 118:8-9
(8) It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on people.  (9) It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on human leaders.

I try not to even talk about theocracy unless asked because I never want to come across as pushing my views on people.  Pushing my views on people would contradict the basis of the intentions of such a belief.  I don’t discuss current politics with people, as far as making judgements about whether the dems or GOP is right.  It doesn’t matter to me who is right if I don’t support them and don’t follow their beliefs anyways.  My concern is that the Church is trying to become too much of a political power and its desire for political power is severely damaging the cause it is charged with overseeing in the Bible.  The Church is supposed to be concerned with people’s souls not their political leanings.  Politics is a distraction to the purpose of the Church.  I believe it is much more effective anyways to make a moral impact by being legitimately concerned with people, caring for them, and practicing what you preach.  You can’t force people to be moral.  Legislation for moral values I think if anything only makes things worse becuase not only do you take away a person’s right to exercise free will, but you also may invoke in them a natural desire to rebel against authority.  Morality is promoted one on one by investing time in people’s lives.

I very rarely read the news anymore.  I believe freedom of the press has done little more than encourage more lies to be published than truth.  Freedom of the press has turned truth into a gray issue.  Under a monarchy or dictatorship there seems to be much less gray and more black and white.  Under theocracy God is not going lie so we don’t even have to worry about anything.

Some may say if you don’t stand up for others then who will stand up for you when you are left all alone.  I say it doesn’t matter.  No government no matter the ideology or structure can destroy my free will to do what I please anyways.  If the government wants to take away my rights let them do so.  Until they take away rights that make me unable to follow the commandments of God, I have no reason to rebel.  If they even go so far as to make Christianity illegal, it wouldn’t matter and would more likely be a mistake on their part.  People that face high amounts of religious persecution thrive better in such states anyways.  The church in China is the fastest growing on Earth thanks to the Communist party.  If the Communists really wanted to get rid of the Church they would make Christianity the official religion and provide benefits to the Christians.  Complacency kills the Church faster than anything else.  The Church in America has been weakened by our current government system because there really isn’t enough separation between church and state.  When you can make people feel they don’t need God, what they believe doesn’t matter, because their faith really does begin to lie with their own abilities.

(Note: This is definitely not super organized.  It is still very much under development.  I am hoping one day to be able to do enough background research on philosophy and history and in current events to develop the idea into a book.  What is seen here are the random arguments for theocracy that run around my own mind.  If you have suggestions of philosophers I should read I will definitely consider all of them.  I’m beginning a small collection all ready of major philosophies on my bookcase.)

Comments:

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ellievil United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:27 PM

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Regrets, couldn’t find a decent Satan filter - settled for the ebonics - so sorry.
Anybody know of a decent “evil speak” converter? cool grin

ellievil United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:28 PM

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However, ebonics is kinda evil. Not?

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:32 PM

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Anybody know of a decent “evil speak� converter?

You mean a Falwell Filter?  Sorry, can’t help you there ...

ellievil United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:40 PM

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Ha, my bra jerry’s a funky one. Keeps a bringin in the suckers tho.

Brock United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:56 PM

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Anybody know of a decent “evil speak� converter?

I just know there’s a killer riposte in there somewhere but I got nothin’. With any luck, elwed, zilch, nowiser, Les, GeekMom, deadscot or someone will come up with something clever.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
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Trotsky United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 03:11 PM

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prickly pear wrote: Personally, it would have no affect on me as I live a simple life, free from the clutter and burden of unsubstantiated beliefs. But given a good enough reason, I will jump on your Christian bandwagon. Like maybe if Jesus shows up and tells me to. Just like you will jump over to the other side when Allah shows up.

One minor little nitpick; Muslims don’t even expect Allah (of course, Allah literately translates to The God) to show up. They are, however, expecting a certain son of Mary to show up and rule the world at some point in time.

Les United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 04:06 PM

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Oh man, sorry Brock, but I got nothing because I’m too busy wiping the tears away after laughing my ass off over her modified Gravatar. Oh my sides hurt now!

Agree or disagree, I gotta respect someone willing to poke a little fun at themselves.

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Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. - David Viaene

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 04:43 PM

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Uh, Les ... how do you know ellie did it?

Spocko United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 05:16 PM

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Man, this thread’s a riot!

The thing I found most disturbing about the Ezekiel passage was that the whole thing was for show.  The famine had not yet fallen upon the area but god wanted the Israelites to prepare their bread in this fashion to send a message of the times to come.

deadscot on 12/08/04 at 12:39 AM

Agreed, but even more disturbing is why this god just didn’t make sure there was plenty of food to be had any place any time. Oh yeah, he’s likes testing us doesn’t he. Fucking tease.

Spocko, great post! I absolutely agree with you. I personally want no part of a theocracy of any type—let alone one with the biblical “God� at the helm.

Shelley on 12/08/04 at 07:09 AM

Now I have a warm fuzzy feeling!

Spocko, how dense can you get?  First of all, even if the sucklings haven’t sinned (and we all know how annoying sucklings can be), they are sinners from birth, so they’re fair game.

The main problem with your attitude, however, is that you arrogate to your sinful self the conceit that you know better than God does about what is “goodâ€? and what is “badâ€?.  Our Creator, being omnipotent and omniscient, has His own ideas about what is good and bad, and if He thinks wasting heathen babies is good, it is good, by God.  It’s all part of His plan to make us love Him so we can go to Heaven.  So you’d better feel warm and fuzzy, or else.

zilch on 12/08/04 at 07:28 AM

Ok, ok, I repent, I repent!

I am a born again raging Bitch from hell, & believe mockery & cruelty is the only way to communicate true anti-logic that swerves everyone away from the point of discussions I’m not required to be a part of anyway.

ellie on 12/08/04 at 08:21 PM

I bow down in awe!

No, just rant & rave & call them names when they present them within your hearing/reading while another person asked, & assume you are right.  & when they say a question is unanswerable, continue to spew your answers. 

ellie on 12/08/04 at 08:31 PM spazzin’ about me saying…

“...do not force your beliefs on others, never quit questioning, don’t take shortcuts to knowledge, expect unanswerable questions, people don’t need gods to be good...”

I reserve the right to rant & rave when someone tries to twist my words to support their cause. I believe I was talking to Kelly when she sarcastically thanked me for my “reminder”. Exactly which of these further “reminders” I mentioned do you take issue with? I, of course, think they are good advice.

I since God doesn’t have you, you can’t be kind.  Not that GM or Spocko have ever called Christians hypocrites, but they sure are lucky to avoid that accusation themselves by simply holding to no foundational beliefs & criticizing others who try.

ellie on 12/08/04 at 08:31 PM

I am kind often, not always (nice grammar BTW). I know many hypocritical xtians. In what manner do you find me hypocritical? Example please.

Oh, & before anyone has a chance to jump to conclusions about a possible insenuation I made, bitch from hell is just a phrase: no reference to pain, punishment, burning, etc.  If anything, as I’ve mentioned before, so me, Hell is simply the absence of God, which is what GM seems to prefer anyway.

ellie on 12/08/04 at 08:49 PM

Gee I thought maybe you were burning in hellfire er somethin’. Do you have a verse:phrase that says “Hell is simply the absence of God”? PS. Welcome to Hell!

Spocko I will not be addressing your posts as they do not pertain to the discussion of theocracy.  I hope to write an article maybe after finals where you could repost your views and we could disucss this in a more appropriate place.

THEOCRAT on 12/08/04 at 09:02 PM

Nonsense. You started this thread fully basing this discussion of theocracy on one very specific god. I challenge the integrity of that alleged god and, tho I may be coarse at times, I think I was very much “on topic”. Our government (USA) is very important to this Marine. Jefferson would slap you silly. If you really wanted to concentrate on the subject of theocracy then you should have posited a hypothetical (of course) “perfect god”, not this tyrant of yours.

Oh but the atheist is to blame too.
The atheist seems to forget that in nature there are groups of people that NEED to believe...right or wrong. The religion most you rely on is SCIENCE and science is often wrong and corrected.

serge on 12/08/04 at 10:20 PM

Blame for what? Heated discussion? I don’t doubt that there are people who need to believe but I have no qualms about striking back when such a believer of fantasy tries to tell me something without solid proof.
Science is not religion, it may be practiced “religiously” but it is not religion. The very beauty of science is its ability to self-correct and grow.

I didn’t see anyone else curbing the verbal violence, so I figured it was all in fun & should be balanced.  Back to the point that I can be called a hypocrite, they can spew cruelty & go about their merry way.

ellie on 12/09/04 at 01:40 AM

You didn’t balance anything. You did not counter any point I made in any way.

That said it seems that Spocko did leave his comments open as well refering to “Christiansâ€? generally.  It could be inferred that he was actually talking about you and theo, but he didn’t mention you explicitly.  Both you and Theo did personally and explicitly aim your disparaging comments to GM and Spocko.

Socialist Swine on 12/09/04 at 01:56 AM

My first post was about the god that would head THEO’s theocracy - on topic if you ask me. My second post was very cleary addressed to Kelly, who tried to twist my meaning. Ellie Mae apparently enjoys freaking out and butting in without thinking through what she wants to say, made evident by the sheer quantity and spastic frequency of her posts.

I ... I ... can’t decide whether to condemn this or laugh my foo’ ass off, or both.

GeekMom on 12/09/04 at 01:46 PM

I’m going for the laughing my foo’ ass off!

Les United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 05:29 PM

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Honestly, I can’t say for certain that she did do it, but I’m kinda hoping she did cause it would be indicative of a good sense of humor.

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Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. - David Viaene

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 05:45 PM

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Well, you could probably tell from the IPs ... otherwise someone’s playing a funny but not-very-nice trick on her.  Hence my conundrum.

Brock United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 06:13 PM

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It’s like playing clue. I think Colonel Mustard did it with a candle stick in the library.

Whoever it turns out to be IP wise, I hope we are told. If it wasn’t ellie, why hasn’t she told us so. Collusion with Professor Plum perhaps?

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prickly pear Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 06:26 PM

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Thus spake Trotsky
One minor little nitpick; Muslims don’t even expect Allah (of course, Allah literately translates to The God) to show up. They are, however, expecting a certain son of Mary to show up and rule the world at some point in time.

I guess you are correct, I am not a Muslim.
But do you suppose it could be a possibility that God/Allah could decide to get rid of the bumbling middle managers so that (s)he/it will take more of a “hands-on” style of governing/declaring fatwahs/acting mighty and holy, given that according to theo, a theocracy is imminent?

I better get my suit cleaned. Shit, I better buy a suit.

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 07:03 PM

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Brock - No one knows evil as intimately as those who name it. But what does being evil have to do with being black (well at least a caricatured black)?
Les - I gotta respect someone willing to poke a little fun at themselves.

To clear up the controversy, aforementioned post is a parody of me, (which did elicit quite a laugh & I showed it to many of my friends, though I thought it would have been more realistic in a valley girl accent) Thank you for making such a great point in my defense about the nature of person making such a post in such a racist (regionalist) manner, & following the paraody, repented.

Having a sense of humor about oneself & focusing on the ideas is the kind of thing I try to teach my students each day. I generally have a great sense of humor about myself & my beliefs, which is why it struck me how much Spocko & GM in particular were getting to me.

I can understand your anger at someone who is belittling something that is very important to you.

SS - In a sense, God is game, I suppose Christians are as well.  There are plenty, Les, SS, DoF, even elwedriddsche who never cross the line to cruel & childish in disagreeing.  I get that this is not a Christian friendly site, but I have found it an interesting place to try to understand others rather than stay in a Christian bubble.  I just feel Spocko & GM rely only on cruel personal attacks, while never merely pointing out the points of disagreement with what Christians believe in an open discussion.  If you don’t agree, any examples & proof I offer will merely inflame the situation.  Y’all have the right to choose the atmosphere of your site.

Spocko - you didn’t make any points to counter.  Just maligned god’s character by picking & choosing quotes out of context (as per usual), & I don’t see the point of wasting energy in a mudslinging point-by-point.  I alternate between bored/frustrated when there are long quotes from others followed by a quick below-the-belt shot.

Spocko United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 07:38 PM

Spocko pic

I just feel Spocko & GM rely only on cruel personal attacks, while never merely pointing out the points of disagreement with what Christians believe in an open discussion.

ellie on 12/09/04 at 04:03 PM

Again, it is not I who drew “first blood”. Do you have a problem processing the sequence of events around here? I responded to the topic of this thread, was “attacked” by Kelly and then by you, and then brushed off (unjustly) as irrelevant by THEO. I made no personal attacks on anyone (other than, perhaps, some generic cheeseless crackerheads). I think I was very clear in pointing out my disagreements with a theocracy under this rumored god and supported my opinion with quotes from THEO’s very own book of “inspired words”.

If you don’t agree, any examples & proof I offer will merely inflame the situation.

cop out

Spocko - you didn’t make any points to counter.  Just maligned god’s character by picking & choosing quotes out of context (as per usual), & I don’t see the point of wasting energy in a mudslinging point-by-point. 

My point; your god does not deserve to rule this theocracy, evidenced by your very book of fables - the “bible”. Any discussion of running this country under a theocracy will require a god that is actually benevolent otherwise we’re just talking about another dictatorship.

I take nothing out of context, please explain how these quotes could be considered taken out of context. They demonstrate the cruelty and pettiness of this jewish mythological figure quite vividly.

I alternate between bored/frustrated when there are long quotes from others followed by a quick below-the-belt shot.

Typical of today’s teacher, I hope not; takes too much effort to read and think?
No, more likely I would wager that’s a typical trait of a “believer”.

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 08:13 PM

ellie pic

I think that’s the most I remember you writing of your own thoughts rather than a train of quotes I already know, thank you. 

your god does not deserve to rule this theocracy, evidenced by your very book of fables - the “bible�. Any discussion of running this country under a theocracy will require a god that is actually benevolent otherwise we’re just talking about another dictatorship.

So this is what I’m looking for: I accept this as an opinion & don’t see it as cruel at all, though I disagree, I would not necessarily even respond, but leave it as your clearly expressed differing opinion.  Sure, to an extent, it’s copping out, but I see it as prioritizing.

Which probably gets to the heart of our misunderstanding: What you consider “responding to the topic” is nearly the opposite to me.  GeekMom cruelly parodies Theocrat’s original post, making no point at all. I feel you cross the line to be cruel to people who subscribe to a belief system you disagree with.  I would brush it off & deal if it was against God, the Bible (they can speak for themselves) or myself, to an extent, Christianity in general.  But I get worked up when another person in particular is (in my view) attacked.  I mostly got that from Luther’s view of passifism.

Most Christians are familiar with the stories of the old testament. I should think someone like Theocrat would make his familiarity obvious.  I’ve NEVER heard of a Christian who (as an adult) stumbled on it & said, “wow, God isn’t who I thought S/He is.” So to bore us with a ton of quotes whose context is what God’s people were doing to Him (sacrificing their own children to other gods) & what was being done to them (rape in public squares & smashing toddlers’ heads into rocks).

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 08:35 PM

ellie pic

It just occured to me as I saw Spocko’s post on Atheism as a religion… my frustration & reference to hypocracy on your part stems from your extensive use of quotes in comparison to original opinons.  You seem to think that Christians let others do the thinking for them, yet you do that more than anyone I know.  I get frustrated with it in church too.

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 08:44 PM

GeekMom pic

ellie, it’s not my fault if you didn’t get the points my parody was making.

Point 1:  It could just as well be ANY god we could choose to run a theocracy.  In my eyes they’re all as silly as the idea of Mr. Smee.  In fact, nobody can explain to me why the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god is any more legitimate than Mr. Smee (just comparing the number of believers won’t count).

Point 2:  You can’t run a theocracy simply “by god’s rules” because your god doesn’t come down and explain them.  You’re relying on humans to interpret the Bible, and you can’t agree on what it means.  In fact, if I recall correctly, disagreements over the Bible are what have caused some really nasty sectarian violence over the centuries.

So a theocracy would be the worst kind of governing—on behalf of an imaginary being who is being interpreted by any number of differing “experts” each with their own agenda.  It’s every bit as scary as Bush claiming that his god wants him to be president.  Who’s going to gainsay him?  It’s all in his mind; there’s nothing to argue with.

And ellie, I hang out here because I can really say what I think.  I’m tired of having to bite my tongue around believers on other sites.  If you don’t like my opinion, don’t read it, but I’m certainly not the only one here who is quite blunt about what they think of religious belief.  I suspect you’re having more trouble dealing with me because I’m a woman, and I differ radically from you in areas of female experience.  You seem to have started getting hysterical as soon as I talked about abortion. 

So I suggest that if you want to improve your experiences here, that you stop complaining about me, just ignore me, and stick to more academic areas of discussion.  You’re starting to mention me in every fourth or fifth post of yours, and it’s bordering on obsession.  Let it go.

Spocko United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 09:53 PM

Spocko pic

It just occured to me as I saw Spocko’s post on Atheism as a religion… my frustration & reference to hypocracy on your part stems from your extensive use of quotes in comparison to original opinons. 

ellie mae once again

More accurately - “Atheism as NOT a religion”.
Ellie’s here for a couple of weeks and thinks she knows all about me. I use quotes when I think it supports my opinion. I also enjoy providing entertaining graphics with my posts. You seem to think you can just blather anything and expect your word to carry weight. Typical of a TrueBeliever™; just dream up any ol’ fanastical story, put it in a book with a bunch of other inconsistent contradicting whimsy, throw in some egotistical war stories and family histories, call it a bible, shovel it to the children and control the gullible ones when they grow up no wiser. When I say your god is a cruel murdering bastard I back it up with quotes from the very source you should respect (even though I consider it fantasy). Your kind quote from it constanty, hell, you remember page numbers and stuff don’t ya.

I also included these quotes because that is precisely what THEO did. I was following his example of selectively picking quotes from the bible to support my view that your old jewish god is not a very nice guy to be running a government of any type let alone the notion of a theocracy.

Quoting a reference source is being hypocritical? How do you figure that?

You seem to think that Christians let others do the thinking for them, yet you do that more than anyone I know.

I know quite a few xtians and they do not think at all when it comes to the idea of your god’s existence, they don’t even question the idea. This is the result of the early indoctrination and brainwashing of children; what I would call child abuse. People who still believe after they’ve reached a certain level of maturity are hopeless. To reject the fantasyland of your world, your “Matrix”, takes effort and quite a bit of “thinking”. I let no one think for me and let go of these childhood tales many decades ago lassie when I was but a teenager.

Come on ellie - take the Red Pill!

I get frustrated with it in church too.

Quit wasting your time there. Duh.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 10:16 PM

elwedriddsche pic

Quit wasting your time there. Duh.

Tut-tut. Consider ellie’s MO. Blather until somebody gets riled, failing that dish out a few insults, and then have a thread devolve into an “it’s all about ellie” attention-getting fest. All things considered, I suspect rather than wasting her time she’s getting exactly what she’s after.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Lobo United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 10:55 PM

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Ellie says:

“you didn’t make any points to counter.  Just maligned god’s character by picking & choosing quotes out of context”

To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, “Out of context?” I do not think this means what you think it means.

The only way that those quotes can be taken out of context is if “That would be bad, so I won’t make you do that.” was the next sentence in any of them.

I hope you don’t teach english.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/10/2004 at 01:50 AM

Socialist Swine pic

ellie,

I get that this is not a Christian friendly site

That’s not entirely true, there are numerous long time participants here who are in fact Christian (and most of them don’t get called names too often).  I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally enjoy talking with you and theo.  I disagree with both of you in numerous areas, not least of which is theology, but if everyone agreed with me, then life would be pretty boring.  As for the amount of heated debate around here, that’s just something that’s inherent of the regulars and it’s something that’s not particularly focussed upon Christians.  I’ve seen rather heated debates between atheists here as well.  I guess we just kind of enjoy arguing.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/10/2004 at 01:55 AM

Socialist Swine pic

P.S.  Now that I think about it for a moment, I think it might be conservatism and fundamentalism that most people here have a hard time coping with.  When I think about it the Christians who’ve passed through this site that were generally accepted into the fold (so to speak) were both religious and political liberals....  Maybe it would be more accurate to say that this site isn’t right-wing friendly....

zilch Austria Posted on 12/10/2004 at 03:18 AM

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Okay, everyone, put down your apples with two bites gone, and your Grilled Cheese Virgin Mary’s with one bite gone, and lissen up:  we are already living in a theocracy!  The debate is over!

Call me a wierdo, but this is the answer!  Since God is omniscient and omnipotent, he created us to do exactly as we do, so we are already doing His will, and have been since the Beginning!  Bush and Bin Laden are His Tools!  Oh joy!

BTW- ellie, I disagree with almost everything you say, but I have to admit (as I’ve said before) you’ve got grit.  And a sense of humor.  However, if you want to throw food, whining about the stains is unbecoming.

GM- I also suspect that ellie was especially galled by you because of your common XXness.

Spocko: I blow platonic kisses in your general direction.  I’m looking forward to meeting you- in Hell!  Buahaha!

Spanferkel: Now that I think about it for a moment, I think it might be conservatism and fundamentalism that most people here have a hard time coping with.

I can certain oink with that.  Hell, my POSSLQ is a believer, and I allow her to eat at my table…

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/10/2004 at 09:22 AM

GeekMom pic

Since God is omniscient and omnipotent, he created us to do exactly as we do, so we are already doing His will, and have been since the Beginning

zilch, some day I really want to send someone who believes this ("God made me this way, I can’t help it") to a Landmark Forum seminar.  And watch the fireworks.

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