Theocracy: A Beginning

Posted by THEOCRAT on Monday, December 06, 2004 at 06:48 PM. Read 5503 times. Tags: ,
{name} pic

Some personal info about me before we begin.  I am a born again Christian that believes the Bible is the inspired word of God.  This entire article is written from such a perspective that the Bible is entirely true.  It’s only been about six months since I’ve given up on human governance.  Before then I was following the relgious right like a good little boy.  I began to be disconcerted with politics when I joined the Protest Warrior bulletin board.  Reading the threads on that board the political discussions were food fights.  No organization and both sides had several points they weren’t addressing and it would always dissolve into name calling.  I saw several good leftist arguments that I had never heard before and no one was addressing.  All through high school I read World Net Daily almost religiously.  I debated anyone who took up the issue and always won because in high school even the leftists aren’t very well informed.

College came and I was still vehemently against the left.  I met people I never dreamed could exist.  Leftist Christians.  Who knew?  One day while defending the merits of George Bush I began to notice that my friend’s voice and my voice were getting louder and louder.  He eventually gave up the argument and started to walk out of the room.  I followed him into the hall continuing to shout praises to Bush.  When I finally calmed down I reflected on my behavior toward my brother in Christ.  Needless to say I felt really guilty.  Brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to build each other up not tear each other down and especially not on something as meaningless as politics.

I eventually got around to asking myself where did Christ stand on the political compass and how should that affect me?  I began to study government structures in the Bible and how Christ and other disciples interacted with their authorities.  I started with observing Jesus interaction with the Pharisees and looking at the one political question he was asked.

Matthew 22:15-21
(15) Then the Pharisees went away and planned to trap Jesus into saying the wrong thing.  (16) They sent their disciples to him along with Herod’s followers. They said to him, “Teacher, we know that you tell the truth and that you teach the truth about the way of God. You don’t favor individuals because of who they are.  (17) So tell us what you think. Is it right to pay taxes to the emperor or not?” (18) Jesus recognized their evil plan, so he asked, “Why do you test me, you hypocrites?  (19) Show me a coin used to pay taxes.” They brought him a coin.  (20) He said to them, “Whose face and name is this?” (21) They replied, “The emperor’s.” Then he said to them, “Very well, give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, and give God what belongs to God.”

Christ is giving an answer that recognizes God as the ultimate authority.  If he said simply to pay taxes the Pharisees would have charged him with not giving to God what is God’s.  If he had said do not pay taxes then the Pharisees would have charged him with disobeying the authority.  The Pharisees were expecting a yes or no answer.  Christ side stepped their intentions by telling them both are important.  The fact that this is the only situation he was confronted with a political question (to our knowledge) also is indicative that his concern was with people more than it was with the authorities.

Another passage I studied in search for Biblical ideals for government would be the Acts churches.

Acts 2:42-47
(42) The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.  (43) A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles.  (44) All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other.  (45) From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.  (46) The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other’s homes and shared their food.  (47) At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group.

Acts 4:23-37
(23) When Peter and John were released, they went to the other apostles and told them everything the chief priests and leaders had said.  (24) When the apostles heard this, they were united and loudly prayed to God, “Master, you made the sky, the land, the sea, and everything in them.  (25) You said through the Holy Spirit, who spoke through your servant David (our ancestor), ‘Why do the nations act arrogantly? Why do their people devise useless plots?  (26) Kings take their stand. Rulers make plans together against the Lord and against his Messiah.’ (27) “In this city Herod and Pontius Pilate made plans together with non-Jewish people and the people of Israel. They made their plans against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.  (28) Through your will and power, they did everything that you had already decided should be done.  (29) “Lord, pay attention to their threats now, and allow us to speak your word boldly.  (30) Show your power by healing, performing miracles, and doing amazing things through the power and the name of your holy servant Jesus.” (31) When the apostles had finished praying, their meeting place shook. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God boldly.  (32) The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.  (33) With great power the apostles continued to testify that the Lord Jesus had come back to life. God’s abundant good will was with all of them.  (34) None of them needed anything. From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money (35) to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it.  (36) Joseph, a descendant of Levi, had been born on the island of Cyprus. The apostles called him Barnabas, which means “a person who encourages.” (37) He had some land. He sold it and turned the money over to the apostles.

Acts 6:1-7
(1) At that time, as the number of disciples grew, Greek-speaking Jews complained about the Hebrew-speaking Jews. The Greek-speaking Jews claimed that the widows among them were neglected every day when food and other assistance was distributed.  (2) The twelve apostles called all the disciples together and told them, “It’s not right for us to give up God’s word in order to distribute food.  (3) So, brothers and sisters, choose seven men whom the people know are spiritually wise. We will put them in charge of this problem.  (4) However, we will devote ourselves to praying and to serving in ways that are related to the word.” (5) The suggestion pleased the whole group. So they chose Stephen, who was a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and they chose Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, who had converted to Judaism in the city of Antioch.  (6) The disciples had these men stand in front of the apostles, who prayed and placed their hands on these seven men.  (7) The word of God continued to spread, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem grew very large. A large number of priests accepted the faith.

These societies were basically theocratic societies.  They devoted their time to sudying and growing in God.  No concern was given to the activities of the king or the government.  They had the good will of the people which likely means they were in no way shape or form coming across as overbearing or forcing their religion or forcing their politics, etc.  It seems to me this happens by being respectful of people’s opinions, talking about religion in casual conversation when it comes up and not trying to bring it up to ‘save’ them, and most importantly practicing what is preached.

Theocracy was the original government of Israel until the people decided a human leader, they could see, would be better than a flawless god.

Exodus 18:13-26
(13) The next day Moses was settling disputes among the people, and he was kept busy from morning till night.  (14) When Jethro saw everything that Moses had to do, he asked, “What is all this that you are doing for the people? Why are you doing this all alone, with people standing here from morning till night to consult you?” (15) Moses answered, “I must do this because the people come to me to learn God’s will.  (16) When two people have a dispute, they come to me, and I decide which one of them is right, and I tell them God’s commands and laws.” (17) Then Jethro said, “You are not doing this right.  (18) You will wear yourself out and these people as well. This is too much for you to do alone.  (19) Now let me give you some good advice, and God will be with you. It is right for you to represent the people before God and bring their disputes to him.  (20) You should teach them God’s commands and explain to them how they should live and what they should do.  (21) But in addition, you should choose some capable men and appoint them as leaders of the people: leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. They must be God-fearing men who can be trusted and who cannot be bribed.  (22) Let them serve as judges for the people on a permanent basis. They can bring all the difficult cases to you, but they themselves can decide all the smaller disputes. That will make it easier for you, as they share your burden.  (23) If you do this, as God commands, you will not wear yourself out, and all these people can go home with their disputes settled.” (24) Moses took Jethro’s advice (25) and chose capable men from among all the Israelites. He appointed them as leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens.  (26) They served as judges for the people on a permanent basis, bringing the difficult cases to Moses but deciding the smaller disputes themselves.

1 Samuel 8
(1) When Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel.  (2) The name of his firstborn son was Joel; the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba.  (3) The sons didn’t follow their father’s example but turned to dishonest ways of making money. They took bribes and denied people justice.  (4) Then all the leaders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah.  (5) They told him, “You’re old, and your sons aren’t following your example. Now appoint a king to judge us so that we will be like all the other nations.” (6) But Samuel considered it wrong for them to request a king to judge them. So Samuel prayed to the LORD.  (7) The LORD told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me.  (8) They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt-leaving me and serving other gods.  (9) Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.” (10) Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the LORD had said.  (11) Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king: He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.  (12) He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.  (13) He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.  (14) He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.  (15) He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.  (16) He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle, and your donkeys for his own use.  (17) He will take a tenth of your flocks. In addition, you will be his servants.  (18) “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The LORD will not answer you when that day comes.” (19) But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king!  (20) Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out to war, and fight our battles.” (21) When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the LORD.  (22) The LORD told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.” Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go back to your own cities.”

God’s original intention was to provide the needs of His creation.  But as the creation rejects Him they replace His leadership as well.  God intended to provide for Adam and Eve so they wuldn’t ever have to work, but they disobeyed His one command so God made it so he would have to work for a living from the Earth to get by.  Noticing the progression of structure in the Bible from God directly ruling, to having judges, to having kings, I recognize that the more human involvement there is in government structure the farther we get from being able to discern God’s will.  I propose democracy is the least of all ideologies because putting the power to judge and legislate in the hands of the corrupt masses only furthers corruption.

Finally the last scripture that gives me a desire to understand a theocracy is because according to the account John provides in Revelation there will be one when Christ comes back to reign for a millenium.

Revelation 20:4-6
(4) Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.  (5) (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead.  (6) Happy and greatly blessed are those who are included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:3-7
(3) I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God’s home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God.  (4) He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.” (5) Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” (6) And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.  (7) Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.

Theocracy was the original governing ideology of the Earth.  It is the governing ideology of Heaven.  It will be the governing ideology of Earth again.  I hope to live long enough to see it reinstated some day.

So now I have provided quite the Biblical background for what it was, is and will be, but practically it’s hard to understand what it may look like to the common citizen of such a government.  I am not greatly educated on the differences between socialism and communism or I could state that it looks like one or the other.  It will be a utopian society with minimal government structure, just enough to make sure those in need get appropriate care.  A government headed by Christ can not be selfish or greedy or unfair.  The only one that should have absolute power to rule is the one that currently holds it.  The one who should be allowed to judge should be the only one with an omniscient standing.  Christ is flawless and can not be the cause of corrupt government.  Communism and socialsim don’t work because the guy in charge doesn’t want to work his butt off for a wage the lowest worker gets paid for with much less effort.  However under theocracy, people become concerned with the well being of others before themselves and the higher up the government chain of command the more so that becomes true.  Utopian society has one flaw that keeps it from working and that is the selfish nature of humans.  Theocracy takes care of this problem.

Adam Smith’s theories changed the face of economic practice.  Laissez-faire economics, as time has proven IMO, has done little more than encourage social caste systems and poverty.  Eventually someone figures out how to take advantage of the system and we get monopolies because no one tried to stop the selfish desires of an ambitious few.  I remember the points of relevance made in the movie “A Beautiful Mind” about John Nash’s theory.  While I haven’t read the theory myself what I got from the movie is that the best thing for the economy is not free competition but cooperation.  Do what is best for the group and you will get off better than you would most likely than by competing.  I believe charity is the means to the end of poverty, not welfare or legislation.  People giving the abundance they have of their own free will to be distributed to the needy is the best solution.  In theocracy it would seem you would worry about people still being selfish in nature, but as the leadership provides an example to live by and they have a god they desire to please, they will desire to give what they can out of their own free will.  No one will force them or persecute them if they don’t, but they will eventually choose to because it encourages the growth of society better than anything else.

So how would I say such seemingly impractical beliefs influence my every day life?  It actually affects my life in many ways.  Most obviously I don’t support human governance.  I don’t vote or endorse any politician because I don’t want to associate my moral values with the actions of anyone else.

Psalms 118:8-9
(8) It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on people.  (9) It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on human leaders.

I try not to even talk about theocracy unless asked because I never want to come across as pushing my views on people.  Pushing my views on people would contradict the basis of the intentions of such a belief.  I don’t discuss current politics with people, as far as making judgements about whether the dems or GOP is right.  It doesn’t matter to me who is right if I don’t support them and don’t follow their beliefs anyways.  My concern is that the Church is trying to become too much of a political power and its desire for political power is severely damaging the cause it is charged with overseeing in the Bible.  The Church is supposed to be concerned with people’s souls not their political leanings.  Politics is a distraction to the purpose of the Church.  I believe it is much more effective anyways to make a moral impact by being legitimately concerned with people, caring for them, and practicing what you preach.  You can’t force people to be moral.  Legislation for moral values I think if anything only makes things worse becuase not only do you take away a person’s right to exercise free will, but you also may invoke in them a natural desire to rebel against authority.  Morality is promoted one on one by investing time in people’s lives.

I very rarely read the news anymore.  I believe freedom of the press has done little more than encourage more lies to be published than truth.  Freedom of the press has turned truth into a gray issue.  Under a monarchy or dictatorship there seems to be much less gray and more black and white.  Under theocracy God is not going lie so we don’t even have to worry about anything.

Some may say if you don’t stand up for others then who will stand up for you when you are left all alone.  I say it doesn’t matter.  No government no matter the ideology or structure can destroy my free will to do what I please anyways.  If the government wants to take away my rights let them do so.  Until they take away rights that make me unable to follow the commandments of God, I have no reason to rebel.  If they even go so far as to make Christianity illegal, it wouldn’t matter and would more likely be a mistake on their part.  People that face high amounts of religious persecution thrive better in such states anyways.  The church in China is the fastest growing on Earth thanks to the Communist party.  If the Communists really wanted to get rid of the Church they would make Christianity the official religion and provide benefits to the Christians.  Complacency kills the Church faster than anything else.  The Church in America has been weakened by our current government system because there really isn’t enough separation between church and state.  When you can make people feel they don’t need God, what they believe doesn’t matter, because their faith really does begin to lie with their own abilities.

(Note: This is definitely not super organized.  It is still very much under development.  I am hoping one day to be able to do enough background research on philosophy and history and in current events to develop the idea into a book.  What is seen here are the random arguments for theocracy that run around my own mind.  If you have suggestions of philosophers I should read I will definitely consider all of them.  I’m beginning a small collection all ready of major philosophies on my bookcase.)

Comments:

Page 3 of 11 pages « First  <  1 2 3 4 5 >  Last »

ellie United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 08:36 PM

ellie pic

the evidence for the christian god is pretty much the same as the evidence for the egyptian gods, the babylonian gods, the druids, the shintoists, the buddhists

Has NO ONE here heard of Lee Strobel & the Case for Christ?

ellie United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 08:49 PM

ellie pic

Oh, & before anyone has a chance to jump to conclusions about a possible insenuation I made, bitch from hell is just a phrase: no reference to pain, punishment, burning, etc.  If anything, as I’ve mentioned before, so me, Hell is simply the absence of God, which is what GM seems to prefer anyway.

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 09:02 PM

THEOCRAT pic

Originally posted by Wormtail:
I’d like to ask… to your own belief system, what makes you think that the garden of eden wouldn’t be repeated?

When Christ comes back to reign for a millenium Satan will be chained and thrown into an abyss.  Currently, according to the Bible, Satan holds dominion over the Earth.  When he is removed from power there will be no temptation to sin.

Originally posted by Wormtail:
Here’s a question for you… if in that story, there was no evil force tempting eve… would she or adam have ever picked the forbidden fruit on their own?

No because there never would have been the temptation to do so.

Originally posted by Skippy:
Therefore, if faith is required, and runs counter to proof, then god must have ensured that his existence cannot be proved.  Assuming, of course, that you (as you say) believe the bible to be inerrant.

No it cannot be conclusively proven, faith is required, and God’s existence, as I’m sure you are aware, cannot be disproven.  Therefore it becomes and remains a question of faith.

Originally posted by prickly pear:
But my original point was what if there is a generic message from a supernatural power which asked for world peace and harmony. Would you, Theo, insist that the declaration came from Jesus? Is this simple message enough to establish a theocracy or would it lead to world war? I would think the message would lead to war, the exact opposite affect of the message’s intent. Why? Because most people with any religious affiliation would insist that it was obviously a message from their choosen invisible friend.

When Christ comes back everyone will know it was Jesus Christ and not Allah, Buddha, etc.  No wars because Satan won’t be around to tempt anyone to start one.

Originally posted by fcsuper:
Feel free to explore the origin of the individual texts that make up the bible.  When researched with a critical and open mind, including religious and secular sources, it is possible that the bible will take a whole new shape right before your eyes.

I have done this a little bit.  What secular sources would you recommend?

Spocko I will not be addressing your posts as they do not pertain to the discussion of theocracy.  I hope to write an article maybe after finals where you could repost your views and we could disucss this in a more appropriate place.

Originally posted by kelly:
Is the point of your post that you are looking forward to the time when a heavenly-ordained theocracy is once again established on earth, or are you advocating that man try to establish and follow such a plan as a model government?

Heavenly-ordained theocracy.

Originally posted by Lobo:
So what evidence did you find?

Not now.  This is not an appropriate place to discuss such things.  An appropriate place would be the article I write after finals, if this one has died by then.

Originally posted by Pop Tarts:
After some thought, I realised that this entire essay is kind of “useless.? Not using the word “useless? as an insult but merely because the essay is premised on something which renders the entire argument irrelevant. Thus even if I accept everything you stated in the argument, this argument ends up not providing any insight at all.

Agreed.  I wrote this article because a few members wished to read my political views.  I thought I made it fairly clear there is no realistic value for my views whatsoever.

Originally posted by Shelley:
How would you see the nations of the world governed in the meantime?

It makes no difference to me how they are governed in the meantime.  I wouldn’t endorse it anyways.

Originally posted by ellie:
Theo- check out II Thessolonians, & in our current gov’t, I think my vote & endorcement is a “rendering unto Ceasar,? because I’m not looking to them for salvation.

I read 2 Thessalonians and I’m not sure what you were wanting me to get out of it.  What passage specifically?  You must “render unto Caesar” because Caesar requires it.  The US government does not require my vote, so in an attempt to be Christlike I interpret the provided passages as staying out of government so people don’t have another reason to hate me.  Thanks for the suggestions.

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 09:12 PM

THEOCRAT pic

Originally posted by ellie:
In Revelation, John writes that even after 1000 year utopia of “theocracy,? a menacing enough minority will take up arms against God, presumably feeling they’ve lost their freedom to be miserable.

They will take arms against God because Satan has tempted them to.  He is released after the millineum reign.

Revelation 20:7-10
(7) After the thousand years are over, Satan will be set loose from his prison, (8) and he will go out to deceive the nations scattered over the whole world, that is, Gog and Magog. Satan will bring them all together for battle, as many as the grains of sand on the seashore.  (9) They spread out over the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city that he loves. But fire came down from heaven and destroyed them.  (10) Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

deadscot United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 09:13 PM

deadscot pic

Has NO ONE here heard of Lee Strobel & the Case for Christ?

Heard of it, read it and agree with the statement that:

the evidence for the christian god is pretty much the same as the evidence for the egyptian gods, the babylonian gods, the druids, the shintoists, the buddhists

Actually I would add that there is more compelling, albeit ancillary, evidence to support the eastern religions.

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 09:48 PM

GeekMom pic

Hell is simply the absence of God, which is what GM seems to prefer anyway.

Let me check:  great spouse, lovely daughters, good friends, good health, nice house ... yep, “Hell” has been pretty good to me over the years.  And think of all the time I’ve been saving by not going through obsessive rituals and conjuring up an imaginary being to placate several times a day!

filteredvision United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 10:09 PM

filteredvision pic

I have read the “Case for Christ,” and its severely flawed.  Naturally he skips over all the parts that go against his position.  He doesn’t even pretend the book is balanced…

There’s also illogical stuff all throughout.  For example, he brings up the idea that because the Bible contradicts itself, this actually supports the idea it is accurate.  The reasoning is this: because of the contradictions its obvious it wasn’t faked with people working together to deceive.  So basically, it is all true because parts of it directly conflict with other parts…

Then he talks about how Christianity is much more accepting than other faiths.  He brings up how other religion force there followers to do certain things.  Having to earn their way into heaven?! Crazy!

Finally, what really annoyed me is how in order to justify why Jesus never takes a stand against slavery, he says something to the effect of: His goal was to spread beliefs, not change the economic system.  Sorry, but I see the enslavement of a group of people as something that is a bit more than economy…

serge Canada Posted on 12/08/2004 at 10:20 PM

serge pic

You people are going mad....relax and take a deep breath.....

I am getting sea sick just reading all these posts.
It’s interesting but…

The superstitious will never convince the atheist and vice versa. Yeah I said the “superstitious”
because many kinds of different religions only think about expansion and growth of their own wealth.  Free will ...remember?

All of this with the help of a book...an outdated book manipulated by many men many times over.....not women....men....the boys club!!

THe atheist.... the believer of facts...the one who follows the path of nature....the unknown.

The one that can show the believer how deep the abyss can get and how dark it is down there.

Oh but the atheist is to blame too.
The atheist seems to forget that in nature there are groups of people that NEED to believe...right or wrong. The religion most you rely on is SCIENCE and science is often wrong and corrected.

This discussion has occured many times here on this blog.

Let’s find the ones that say they believe but don’t...the ones that create conflict...and suffering...the ones that manipulate populations through complicated schemes...the ones that polute beyond the need to....

lets have a witch hunt but it is not the witch we should hunt. It’s the good ol’ witch hunter.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:06 AM

Socialist Swine pic

I agree with serge (though I’m not entirely sure what he’s saying in the last little bit), it’s gotten a little crazy in this thread.  People are just saying random stuff now and not making all that much sense.  Maybe everyone should take a moment and catch their breath instead of writing when they’re angry.  It’s all getting a little ranty.

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:13 AM

ellie pic

The US government does not require my vote, so in an attempt to be Christlike I interpret the provided passages as staying out of government so people don’t have another reason to hate me.

I would argue it does.  Christ himself was so hated he was murdered. But all-in-all, I know you could balance this with Titus 1:9-10 if you view your relationship w/ our gov’t as that of a slave. When I referred to both of the Thess., I mostly thought of II Thess. 3:6-15, even though it teaches specifically about food & work, I relate it to looking so forward that you are of no present good.  Neither are vital areas anyway.

The superstitious will never convince the atheist and vice versa.

Exactly my point.  If you disagree, bring up points, but if you enjoy

great spouse, lovely daughters, good friends, good health, nice house

then continue to do so by posting elsewhere without riduculing others you’re not going to convince anyway.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:20 AM

Socialist Swine pic

ellie,

But you’ve been harranguing GM and Spocko pretty vehemently yourself.  Perhaps you might consider your own advice as well, and maybe we can all get back to calm discussion versus just yelling at each other.

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:40 AM

ellie pic

I didn’t see anyone else curbing the verbal violence, so I figured it was all in fun & should be balanced.  Back to the point that I can be called a hypocrite, they can spew cruelty & go about their merry way.

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:41 AM

ellie pic

For example, I don’t stray into posts of video games that don’t interest me & mock those who are interested just to be cruel & display my disagreement with the violence...then say stop pushing your interest in video games on me!

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:56 AM

Socialist Swine pic

ellie,

I agree Spocko might have been a little out of line with his post (though I actually don’t think that GM was).  I did in fact make my comment general and applicable to everyone (in my post previous to yours at least, I did refer to you specifically in my second post, but that was just as a reply to your comment). 

That said it seems that Spocko did leave his comments open as well refering to “Christians” generally.  It could be inferred that he was actually talking about you and theo, but he didn’t mention you explicitly.  Both you and Theo did personally and explicitly aim your disparaging comments to GM and Spocko. 

This is understandable to some degree.  You are passionate about what you see as the truth, and that to some degree is admirable.  As such I can understand your anger at someone who is belittling something that is very important to you.  I mean I would get equally bent out of shape if someone told me that pacifism is silly and that I’m stupid for thinking that peace is almost always preferable to violence. 

Such being the case, I would actually appreciate someone telling me to calm down and think about what I said so that I could try to make a clearer case for my perspective.  That’s all I’m trying to do, get everyone to calm down for a second

zilch Austria Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:49 AM

zilch pic

GM said: Let me check:  great spouse, lovely daughters, good friends, good health, nice house ... yep, “Hell? has been pretty good to me over the years.

This is because the material plane is ruled by Satan, and of course he wants to lull us into complacency…

ellie to GM: ...continue to do so by posting elsewhere without riduculing others you’re not going to convince anyway.

Once again, our “you have given in to the terrorists” Ellie has shown that she can dish it out, but not take it.  Ellie- take some time, go back and read what you and GM have posted here at SEB, and tell me who is even-tempered and who is vitriolic.  As Pig said, you might consider taking your own advice.  Otherwise, you’re fair game for Mose Allison’s appraisal: your mind is on vacation and your mouth is working overtime.

 Signature 

You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Shelley Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 05:39 AM

Shelley pic

Theo, I’m surprised that you’ve no interest in how the present world is governed. Any Christian obligation to care for the disadvantaged of this world would seem to demand that you care about the kind of government elected: the effect of government on the poor is profound.

By your own standards: I Corinth. 13—faith and hope may be important (and much vaunted), but charity (love/agape) is the most important of all, is it not? Is it possible to claim compassion and love for others and be disinterested in how they fare at the hands of government?? To make your case, you’d have to show me where your new testament teachings would call you to disinterest until the ‘second coming.’

 Signature 

“I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I’ll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.” ~ Asimov

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 07:02 AM

elwedriddsche pic

Zilch & Ferkel,

(ellie) I am a born again raging Bitch from hell, & believe mockery & cruelty is the only way to communicate true anti-logic that swerves everyone away from the point of discussions I’m not required to be a part of anyway.

In her own words, no less.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 08:21 AM

GeekMom pic

ellie:  I’m not trying to convince you of anything.  That would be silly.  On the other hand, if it bothers you so much to see someone who is happy and living well despite not believing in your god, maybe you should stop trying to engage me and just ignore me.  Or take it up with your buddy Jesus; maybe he has an explanation.  Personally, I suspect the whole “reward-in-the-afterlife” story was made up to console those people who couldn’t figure out why the nonbelievers were doing just fine too.

Of course, I have to wonder why you seem to be so irked by me and Spocko in particular, when this site is chock full o’ atheists and is run by one.  What are YOU doing here, if you can’t take disbelief and mockery?  What did you THINK you were going to get by posting here?  New converts kissing your feet in gratitude?

OB United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 11:50 AM

OB pic

Originally posted by Wormtail:
I’d like to ask… to your own belief system, what makes you think that the garden of eden wouldn’t be repeated?

Theo: When Christ comes back to reign for a millenium Satan will be chained and thrown into an abyss.  Currently, according to the Bible, Satan holds dominion over the Earth.  When he is removed from power there will be no temptation to sin.

So if God hadn’t created Satan in the first place, all the people of the world would still be in Paradise, living peacefully together in the absence of sin giving God all the worship He desires, right?

To my mind, it appears that the most important biblical character of all is Satan, since without him there’s no need for everything after Genesis.  Seems to me that God’s creation of Satan and the Fall of mankind are absolutely necessary, otherwise there’s no sin… and therefore no need for salvation, no need for Jesus.  At which point the entire foundation of Christianity crumbles.

I’d guess that’s the reason why so many Christians seem to talk just as much about Satan as they do about Jesus - and in some cases, even more so.  Interesting.

 Signature 

Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.

Les United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 12:32 PM

Les pic

So if God hadn’t created Satan in the first place, all the people of the world would still be in Paradise, living peacefully together in the absence of sin giving God all the worship He desires, right?

This is where I interject a concept from a previous thread and point out that God, being omniscient and thusly aware of everything that would ever happen prior to undertaking Creation, is directly and solely responsible for everything that has happened—good or evil—due to his position as First Cause.

Being that he knew ahead of time and went ahead with his plan anyway then how can anyone, including Satan, be held accountable for doing exactly what God knew they would do? You would think that a reality such as this would never come to pass under any truly benevolent omnimax God such as the one the Bible describes. The fact that it has come to pass implies that either God isn’t as all-knowing or all-powerful as he’s claimed to be or things are exactly the way God intended them to be. Ironically, the first possibility is actually a better argument in favor of Christianity than the second one is.

 Signature 

All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
All I know is my steak tastes better when I take my steak tastes better pill
-- I Feel Fantastic, Jonathan Coulton

John Hoke United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 12:56 PM

John Hoke pic

See Les…
Now you get into the “Gnostic Heresy"…

The world is evil. Yahweh/God/Demiurge (YHVH) created the World , therefore, he must be evil too… bad creator - no cookie

Yes, I am oversimplifying this ALOT, but I actually dig the history and some of the philosophy of the Gnostics and Valentinians, and I wish I could go on and on here, but I’m at work :(

The problem is that the Monad is unknowable, but the Demiurge, the petulant child-god of the old testiment is what we know as ‘god’ is just that… a petulant child who creates the world without Sophia (wisdom) ...

They also saw the serpent in Genesis as a Prometheus, bringing denied wisdom (fire) to mankind ... and like Prometheus, the serpent gets screwed for helping us out.

Obviously this pissed off the power structure in the crutch Church…

Sorry for the aside here.. your post reminded me of a few areas I am investigating and I spewed forth smile

ellievil United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:28 PM

ellievil pic

I be uh born ag’in raging Bitch from hell, & believe mockery & cruelty iz da only way ta communicate true anti-logic dat swerves brothas away from da point o’ discussions I’m not required ta be uh part o’ anyway. slap mah fro! 

No, just rant & rave & page dem names when dey present dem within yo’ hearing/reading while another person asked, & assume ya iz right. & when dey say uh queshun iz unanswerable, continue ta spew yo’ answers. I since God doesn’t gots ya, ya can’t be kind. Not dat GM or Spocko gots ever called Christians hypocrites, but dey sure iz lucky ta avoid dat accusation themselves by simply holding ta nahh foundational beliefs & criticizing others who try. what ‘chew trippin foo’

Oh, & ‘bfoe anyone has uh chance ta jump ta conclusions about uh possible insenuation I made, beeotch from hell iz just uh phrase: nahh reference ta pain, punishment, burning, etc. If anythin’, as I’ve mentioned ‘bfoe, so me, Hell iz simply da absence o’ God, which iz what GM seems ta prefer anyway. Don’t make me come ovah there bitch…

Christ himself wuz so hated he wuz murdered. But all-in-all, I know ya could balance dis here wiff Titus 1:9-10 if ya view yo’ relationship w/ our gov’t as dat o’ uh slave. you know das right!

Signed: “born ag’in raging Bitch from hell”

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:46 PM

GeekMom pic

I ... I ... can’t decide whether to condemn this or laugh my foo’ ass off, or both.

Lemme get back to you, whoever this was.

PS - Nice jive filter.

Brock United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:19 PM

Brock pic

OMG, ellie is so out there sometimes. Actually kudos, ellie, you managed to surprise me. No one knows evil as intimately as those who name it.

But what does being evil have to do with being black (well at least a caricatured black)? Do you have a black friend to look down on as well?

 Signature 

“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

zilch Austria Posted on 12/09/2004 at 02:24 PM

zilch pic

I ... I ... can’t decide whether to condemn this or laugh my foo’ ass off, or both.

GeekMom, do both.  But maybe not at the same time.  No one will take your condemnation seriously if it’s half-assed (sorry...) LOL

 Signature 

You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Page 3 of 11 pages « First  <  1 2 3 4 5 >  Last »

Name:

Email:

Location:

URL:

Smileys


Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Submit the word you see below:


<< Back to main