Theocracy: A Beginning

Posted by THEOCRAT on Monday, December 06, 2004 at 06:48 PM. Read 5978 times. Tags: ,
{name} pic

Some personal info about me before we begin.  I am a born again Christian that believes the Bible is the inspired word of God.  This entire article is written from such a perspective that the Bible is entirely true.  It’s only been about six months since I’ve given up on human governance.  Before then I was following the relgious right like a good little boy.  I began to be disconcerted with politics when I joined the Protest Warrior bulletin board.  Reading the threads on that board the political discussions were food fights.  No organization and both sides had several points they weren’t addressing and it would always dissolve into name calling.  I saw several good leftist arguments that I had never heard before and no one was addressing.  All through high school I read World Net Daily almost religiously.  I debated anyone who took up the issue and always won because in high school even the leftists aren’t very well informed.

College came and I was still vehemently against the left.  I met people I never dreamed could exist.  Leftist Christians.  Who knew?  One day while defending the merits of George Bush I began to notice that my friend’s voice and my voice were getting louder and louder.  He eventually gave up the argument and started to walk out of the room.  I followed him into the hall continuing to shout praises to Bush.  When I finally calmed down I reflected on my behavior toward my brother in Christ.  Needless to say I felt really guilty.  Brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to build each other up not tear each other down and especially not on something as meaningless as politics.

I eventually got around to asking myself where did Christ stand on the political compass and how should that affect me?  I began to study government structures in the Bible and how Christ and other disciples interacted with their authorities.  I started with observing Jesus interaction with the Pharisees and looking at the one political question he was asked.

Matthew 22:15-21
(15) Then the Pharisees went away and planned to trap Jesus into saying the wrong thing.  (16) They sent their disciples to him along with Herod’s followers. They said to him, “Teacher, we know that you tell the truth and that you teach the truth about the way of God. You don’t favor individuals because of who they are.  (17) So tell us what you think. Is it right to pay taxes to the emperor or not?” (18) Jesus recognized their evil plan, so he asked, “Why do you test me, you hypocrites?  (19) Show me a coin used to pay taxes.” They brought him a coin.  (20) He said to them, “Whose face and name is this?” (21) They replied, “The emperor’s.” Then he said to them, “Very well, give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, and give God what belongs to God.”

Christ is giving an answer that recognizes God as the ultimate authority.  If he said simply to pay taxes the Pharisees would have charged him with not giving to God what is God’s.  If he had said do not pay taxes then the Pharisees would have charged him with disobeying the authority.  The Pharisees were expecting a yes or no answer.  Christ side stepped their intentions by telling them both are important.  The fact that this is the only situation he was confronted with a political question (to our knowledge) also is indicative that his concern was with people more than it was with the authorities.

Another passage I studied in search for Biblical ideals for government would be the Acts churches.

Acts 2:42-47
(42) The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.  (43) A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles.  (44) All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other.  (45) From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.  (46) The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other’s homes and shared their food.  (47) At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group.

Acts 4:23-37
(23) When Peter and John were released, they went to the other apostles and told them everything the chief priests and leaders had said.  (24) When the apostles heard this, they were united and loudly prayed to God, “Master, you made the sky, the land, the sea, and everything in them.  (25) You said through the Holy Spirit, who spoke through your servant David (our ancestor), ‘Why do the nations act arrogantly? Why do their people devise useless plots?  (26) Kings take their stand. Rulers make plans together against the Lord and against his Messiah.’ (27) “In this city Herod and Pontius Pilate made plans together with non-Jewish people and the people of Israel. They made their plans against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.  (28) Through your will and power, they did everything that you had already decided should be done.  (29) “Lord, pay attention to their threats now, and allow us to speak your word boldly.  (30) Show your power by healing, performing miracles, and doing amazing things through the power and the name of your holy servant Jesus.” (31) When the apostles had finished praying, their meeting place shook. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God boldly.  (32) The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.  (33) With great power the apostles continued to testify that the Lord Jesus had come back to life. God’s abundant good will was with all of them.  (34) None of them needed anything. From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money (35) to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it.  (36) Joseph, a descendant of Levi, had been born on the island of Cyprus. The apostles called him Barnabas, which means “a person who encourages.” (37) He had some land. He sold it and turned the money over to the apostles.

Acts 6:1-7
(1) At that time, as the number of disciples grew, Greek-speaking Jews complained about the Hebrew-speaking Jews. The Greek-speaking Jews claimed that the widows among them were neglected every day when food and other assistance was distributed.  (2) The twelve apostles called all the disciples together and told them, “It’s not right for us to give up God’s word in order to distribute food.  (3) So, brothers and sisters, choose seven men whom the people know are spiritually wise. We will put them in charge of this problem.  (4) However, we will devote ourselves to praying and to serving in ways that are related to the word.” (5) The suggestion pleased the whole group. So they chose Stephen, who was a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and they chose Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, who had converted to Judaism in the city of Antioch.  (6) The disciples had these men stand in front of the apostles, who prayed and placed their hands on these seven men.  (7) The word of God continued to spread, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem grew very large. A large number of priests accepted the faith.

These societies were basically theocratic societies.  They devoted their time to sudying and growing in God.  No concern was given to the activities of the king or the government.  They had the good will of the people which likely means they were in no way shape or form coming across as overbearing or forcing their religion or forcing their politics, etc.  It seems to me this happens by being respectful of people’s opinions, talking about religion in casual conversation when it comes up and not trying to bring it up to ‘save’ them, and most importantly practicing what is preached.

Theocracy was the original government of Israel until the people decided a human leader, they could see, would be better than a flawless god.

Exodus 18:13-26
(13) The next day Moses was settling disputes among the people, and he was kept busy from morning till night.  (14) When Jethro saw everything that Moses had to do, he asked, “What is all this that you are doing for the people? Why are you doing this all alone, with people standing here from morning till night to consult you?” (15) Moses answered, “I must do this because the people come to me to learn God’s will.  (16) When two people have a dispute, they come to me, and I decide which one of them is right, and I tell them God’s commands and laws.” (17) Then Jethro said, “You are not doing this right.  (18) You will wear yourself out and these people as well. This is too much for you to do alone.  (19) Now let me give you some good advice, and God will be with you. It is right for you to represent the people before God and bring their disputes to him.  (20) You should teach them God’s commands and explain to them how they should live and what they should do.  (21) But in addition, you should choose some capable men and appoint them as leaders of the people: leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. They must be God-fearing men who can be trusted and who cannot be bribed.  (22) Let them serve as judges for the people on a permanent basis. They can bring all the difficult cases to you, but they themselves can decide all the smaller disputes. That will make it easier for you, as they share your burden.  (23) If you do this, as God commands, you will not wear yourself out, and all these people can go home with their disputes settled.” (24) Moses took Jethro’s advice (25) and chose capable men from among all the Israelites. He appointed them as leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens.  (26) They served as judges for the people on a permanent basis, bringing the difficult cases to Moses but deciding the smaller disputes themselves.

1 Samuel 8
(1) When Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel.  (2) The name of his firstborn son was Joel; the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba.  (3) The sons didn’t follow their father’s example but turned to dishonest ways of making money. They took bribes and denied people justice.  (4) Then all the leaders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah.  (5) They told him, “You’re old, and your sons aren’t following your example. Now appoint a king to judge us so that we will be like all the other nations.” (6) But Samuel considered it wrong for them to request a king to judge them. So Samuel prayed to the LORD.  (7) The LORD told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me.  (8) They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt-leaving me and serving other gods.  (9) Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.” (10) Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the LORD had said.  (11) Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king: He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.  (12) He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.  (13) He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.  (14) He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.  (15) He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.  (16) He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle, and your donkeys for his own use.  (17) He will take a tenth of your flocks. In addition, you will be his servants.  (18) “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The LORD will not answer you when that day comes.” (19) But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king!  (20) Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out to war, and fight our battles.” (21) When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the LORD.  (22) The LORD told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.” Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go back to your own cities.”

God’s original intention was to provide the needs of His creation.  But as the creation rejects Him they replace His leadership as well.  God intended to provide for Adam and Eve so they wuldn’t ever have to work, but they disobeyed His one command so God made it so he would have to work for a living from the Earth to get by.  Noticing the progression of structure in the Bible from God directly ruling, to having judges, to having kings, I recognize that the more human involvement there is in government structure the farther we get from being able to discern God’s will.  I propose democracy is the least of all ideologies because putting the power to judge and legislate in the hands of the corrupt masses only furthers corruption.

Finally the last scripture that gives me a desire to understand a theocracy is because according to the account John provides in Revelation there will be one when Christ comes back to reign for a millenium.

Revelation 20:4-6
(4) Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.  (5) (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead.  (6) Happy and greatly blessed are those who are included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:3-7
(3) I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God’s home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God.  (4) He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.” (5) Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” (6) And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.  (7) Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.

Theocracy was the original governing ideology of the Earth.  It is the governing ideology of Heaven.  It will be the governing ideology of Earth again.  I hope to live long enough to see it reinstated some day.

So now I have provided quite the Biblical background for what it was, is and will be, but practically it’s hard to understand what it may look like to the common citizen of such a government.  I am not greatly educated on the differences between socialism and communism or I could state that it looks like one or the other.  It will be a utopian society with minimal government structure, just enough to make sure those in need get appropriate care.  A government headed by Christ can not be selfish or greedy or unfair.  The only one that should have absolute power to rule is the one that currently holds it.  The one who should be allowed to judge should be the only one with an omniscient standing.  Christ is flawless and can not be the cause of corrupt government.  Communism and socialsim don’t work because the guy in charge doesn’t want to work his butt off for a wage the lowest worker gets paid for with much less effort.  However under theocracy, people become concerned with the well being of others before themselves and the higher up the government chain of command the more so that becomes true.  Utopian society has one flaw that keeps it from working and that is the selfish nature of humans.  Theocracy takes care of this problem.

Adam Smith’s theories changed the face of economic practice.  Laissez-faire economics, as time has proven IMO, has done little more than encourage social caste systems and poverty.  Eventually someone figures out how to take advantage of the system and we get monopolies because no one tried to stop the selfish desires of an ambitious few.  I remember the points of relevance made in the movie “A Beautiful Mind” about John Nash’s theory.  While I haven’t read the theory myself what I got from the movie is that the best thing for the economy is not free competition but cooperation.  Do what is best for the group and you will get off better than you would most likely than by competing.  I believe charity is the means to the end of poverty, not welfare or legislation.  People giving the abundance they have of their own free will to be distributed to the needy is the best solution.  In theocracy it would seem you would worry about people still being selfish in nature, but as the leadership provides an example to live by and they have a god they desire to please, they will desire to give what they can out of their own free will.  No one will force them or persecute them if they don’t, but they will eventually choose to because it encourages the growth of society better than anything else.

So how would I say such seemingly impractical beliefs influence my every day life?  It actually affects my life in many ways.  Most obviously I don’t support human governance.  I don’t vote or endorse any politician because I don’t want to associate my moral values with the actions of anyone else.

Psalms 118:8-9
(8) It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on people.  (9) It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on human leaders.

I try not to even talk about theocracy unless asked because I never want to come across as pushing my views on people.  Pushing my views on people would contradict the basis of the intentions of such a belief.  I don’t discuss current politics with people, as far as making judgements about whether the dems or GOP is right.  It doesn’t matter to me who is right if I don’t support them and don’t follow their beliefs anyways.  My concern is that the Church is trying to become too much of a political power and its desire for political power is severely damaging the cause it is charged with overseeing in the Bible.  The Church is supposed to be concerned with people’s souls not their political leanings.  Politics is a distraction to the purpose of the Church.  I believe it is much more effective anyways to make a moral impact by being legitimately concerned with people, caring for them, and practicing what you preach.  You can’t force people to be moral.  Legislation for moral values I think if anything only makes things worse becuase not only do you take away a person’s right to exercise free will, but you also may invoke in them a natural desire to rebel against authority.  Morality is promoted one on one by investing time in people’s lives.

I very rarely read the news anymore.  I believe freedom of the press has done little more than encourage more lies to be published than truth.  Freedom of the press has turned truth into a gray issue.  Under a monarchy or dictatorship there seems to be much less gray and more black and white.  Under theocracy God is not going lie so we don’t even have to worry about anything.

Some may say if you don’t stand up for others then who will stand up for you when you are left all alone.  I say it doesn’t matter.  No government no matter the ideology or structure can destroy my free will to do what I please anyways.  If the government wants to take away my rights let them do so.  Until they take away rights that make me unable to follow the commandments of God, I have no reason to rebel.  If they even go so far as to make Christianity illegal, it wouldn’t matter and would more likely be a mistake on their part.  People that face high amounts of religious persecution thrive better in such states anyways.  The church in China is the fastest growing on Earth thanks to the Communist party.  If the Communists really wanted to get rid of the Church they would make Christianity the official religion and provide benefits to the Christians.  Complacency kills the Church faster than anything else.  The Church in America has been weakened by our current government system because there really isn’t enough separation between church and state.  When you can make people feel they don’t need God, what they believe doesn’t matter, because their faith really does begin to lie with their own abilities.

(Note: This is definitely not super organized.  It is still very much under development.  I am hoping one day to be able to do enough background research on philosophy and history and in current events to develop the idea into a book.  What is seen here are the random arguments for theocracy that run around my own mind.  If you have suggestions of philosophers I should read I will definitely consider all of them.  I’m beginning a small collection all ready of major philosophies on my bookcase.)

Comments:

Page 10 of 11 pages « First  <  8 9 10 11 >

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/19/2004 at 12:13 PM

GeekMom pic

Just like when you curse saying the word “shit,” you don’t actually literally mean that you want to shit.  It’s semantically null.  Just as the word “god” is.  We learn the words we hear around us, but they don’t really mean anything.

Otherwise quite a few of us would be attempting to do something anatomically impossible whenever someone else requested it of us.  (Hello, Mr. Vice President!)

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/19/2004 at 01:33 PM

Consigliere pic

Nunya:

Unfortunately, I doubt I’ll have the time to fully respond to this before the holidays.  I moved up my travel plans and am leaving town Monday.  If I’m lucky, maybe I’ll be ablet to put up a slightly more comprehensive response this evening.  If I don’t get the chance to though, I wanted to take a moment to wish a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. smile

A couple of quick observations and thoughts:

1) I asked about the number of years, because if you review your postings in this thread there are several that give prominence to the importance of numbers to “unlocking” the “secret.” Given that as background, I just figured that if the NT was a complete fabrication, as you maintain, with every name and number having some meaning, the length of time for Jesus’s ministry would also have meaning. 

In fact, if it were a myth, it would only make sense from a literary perspective that it be symbolic. Hence, my inquiry.

2) The second link under section 4 in your last post, the author of that article is closer to me than you in his position regarding Jesus.  He believes Jesus and John the Baptist were Essenes.  This makes an infinite amount of sense to me, especially with respect to John.  I’ve believed that John was a hard core Essene for some time now, and that Jesus at the very least would have had substantially exposure the Essene community. 

He does not in any intimate that Jesus never lived.  The “fraud” that he references isn’t that of a Jesus myth.  It is that Jesus was lionized after his death.  The difference there is monumental. Why did you refer me there?

I haven’t had the opportunity to review all your other links, but I’ve made a committment to you to discuss this so I will do so. 

3) I would love to hear your complete version of history regarding Judaism and Christianity from Genesis to Acts.  I’m not asking you to compile all your competing theories into one coherent one.  I just think it would be interesting is all I’m saying. 

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/19/2004 at 01:39 PM

Consigliere pic

I wanted to take a moment to wish a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

to you and yours.  That is, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours. 

Regards,

I want to be able to edit my posts!!!

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/19/2004 at 04:43 PM

Nunyabiz pic

Actually in this instance when I was typing that I said just “moth to a flame”.
I then thought about whom I was speaking to and how exasperated I was trying to get the simplest point across so I went back and added “god damn moth to a flame” as an afterthought, the phrase or curse “god damn” means positively nothing to me as obviously no such entity exist except in the minds of the religiously delusional.
Kind of the same as saying “Bloody” or “Rogering” here is rather meaningless, though in the UK they are perceived to be profane.
A cuss word or phrase is nothing except what YOU perceive it to be, hence to people that believe such hogwash I purposely use God damn as I know how its perceived by them.

Also take note, no Christian has yet even attempted to explain the Astrological origins of Christianity.
This is the one thing I have found that Christians run away from like rats off a sinking ship.
There really isn’t anything they can say, be like denying you are standing on a planet we call Earth, they certainly will never admit to it as it clearly proves what Christianity and the Jesus MYTH really are.

I honestly feel sorry for such delusional humans mired in self deception.

The second link under section 4 in your last post, the author of that article is closer to me than you in his position regarding Jesus.  He believes Jesus and John the Baptist were Essenes.  This makes an infinite amount of sense to me, especially with respect to John.  I’ve believed that John was a hard core Essene for some time now, and that Jesus at the very least would have had substantially exposure the Essene community. 

Really? so you think that Jesus was in fact NOT a divine being of any kind, certainly not the son of any god, but actually a Jewish Militant? Good, that’s a start. Iv never denied there could possibly be a real person behind the Myth of Jesus, actually that is highly probable.
There very well could have been a real person whom this Christian MYTH was loosely based on, be it Apollonius of Tyana, Yeshu Ben Pantera, etc. Just like there was a real “St. Nicholas” of which the Santa Clause MYTH sprang from.
But Jesus of Nazareth positively was NOT a historical character, positively NOT any son of himself~ god, positively did NOT rise from the dead, or really do ANYTHING miracle wise.

So if the author of that page closer represents your view than mine then we are done here smile allow me to quote YOUR view from this page.

Christianity made Jesus through its pious literature, rather than Jesus making Christianity. Religious writings and sermons, so eager to make us truthful and good, rarely tell the truth. No authentic literature mentions Jesus until a century after his death. The historic Jesus died in obscurity and returned to a darker obscurity than that he emerged from because it is false.
Jesus asserted that the end of the world was imminent and warned his disciples to be prepared. Then he told them to build a church from which to preach his message! If the end of the world was coming, why should he tell his friends to build a church? Most of his immediate followers returned to Judaism when it did not happen.

Only some years after the crucifixion when a clever opportunist and likely a Roman agent provocateur saw the value of moving among the Jewish communities of the empire, picking up information and stirring up dissent among the Jews did Christianity find a champion. The Jews were fomenting trouble and a spy like Paul could be immensely valuable. Paul hoped to douse the nationalist flame of the Jews by diluting it with gentiles. Several decades later some of them, generally ignorant men and women, still believed Paul’s scam and held suppers in his name in some large Greek and Roman cities.

For many, perhaps including Paul, Jesus was simply a new allegory of the age old myth of the dying and rising god. Though heretical, much of the older tradition with its rituals and doctrines were accepted into the church before anyone had any thoughts about defending any particular belief as orthodox.

The gospel story of Jesus is a disguised portrayal of an historical Essene master. Woven into it is an old Pagan myth in which the SUN GOD was personified as The Christ. The Christ is a popular divine figure of Pagan origin that never lived. Once he was the Ram and afterwards the Fish. He was the image of a dozen different Pagan gods.

The church Father Tertullian (160-220 AD), an ex-Pagan and Bishop of Carthage, admits this identity of Christ by stating in refutation of his critics:  “You say we worship the sun. So do you.”

The Enoch literature abounds in Christian doctrines like the Messianic Kingdom, Hell, the Resurrection, and Demonology, the Seven Heavens, and the Millennium, all of which have been taken bodily from Persian and Babylonian myths.

This Author is Dr.MD Magee of which is the Author of most of what I listed there, he also said:

It is not surprising that Christianity is composed of over thirty thousand sects, all of which can affirm their particular interpretation of Faith with explicit biblical proof texts, precisely because the bible is such a mass of contradictions, any of which can be quoted to establish different points of view.

The Book of Mormon is studied, read and believed by millions of people despite being known as an amateurish fake. Mormons accept it as true despite evidence it is a fake. Mormons plainly lack the capacity of rational thought, but they are only unusual in that they believe a recent fake. Christians believe a fraudulent book completed almost 2000 years ago but known to be a hotch-potch of incompatible ideas. It does not matter. They just take what they want or what they are taught to take from it and ignore the rest, inconsistencies and all. Christians too lack the capacity for rational thought, but most of them are badly educated, simple and superstitious peasants. What does that make their sophisticated preachers and ministers with their university educations or their radio stations?

The summer “brightâ€? sun god is born at the winter solstice, and the increasing hours of lightness in the day show him growing in strength until he reaches his greatest power, the summer solstice—the longest day. The winter “darkâ€? sun god, is born at the summer solstice, and the increasing hours of darkness show him growing in strength until he reaches his greatest power, the winter solstice—the longest night. As one twin grows in power, the other declines in power in an endless battle between light and darkness and good and evil. John the Baptist gives us pause for thought when he says of Jesus:  “He must increase, but I must decrease. “Jn 3:30”

A relic of the original belief in the dual solar nature of the Christian myth, it must have been said at the birth of the summer sun at the winter solstice, for, in this myth, John is the winter sun, as his association with water makes clear. He is Oannes, the Babylonian equivalent (Ea), born at the summer solstice and dying at the spring equinox. 24 June, the end of the summer solstice, was supposedly the birth date of John the Baptist in the Christian calendar, who was born six months before Jesus, according to gospel tradition. In fact, “Jesus� is not a separate god but a title of John—Saviour. The gentile Churches deliberately confused the tradition to distinguish Christians from the followers of John the Baptist. Both were Nazarenes and both had the same sun god, but the Christians had to distinguish their god from the Baptists’. So they made John the Baptist the herald of Jesus.

Like Esau, Jesus has a brother called James who supplanted him—he becomes the leader of the Nazarenes after him. He has the title, “The Just,� justice being a solar function, and perhaps particularly the harsh summer sun’s. Thus, the two solar gods of the original Christian myth are revealed as John the Baptist and James the Just, the winter and summer suns respectively, John being the Saviour—Jesus. The biblical books try their best to disguise the solar meaning underlying them, but leave enough tantalizing clues to make it evident, if not clear. The real life of a patriotic Jewish bandit has been forced into the container of this solar myth to give us Christianity.

Ancient astronomer–priests knew of the annual cycles of the sun and told the punters that they could influence it in its journeys—if they were rewarded for their skills. Priests always were frauds—modern ones are no different in claiming they can help people get eternal life—and pretended they had rituals to revive the sun each winter. Each year on 25 December, when it was born again, people celebrated its birthday. Sons of god are born on December 25th because the sun is. Jesus has no known birthdate but he was given the birthdate of the Unconquerable Sun because he was perceived by the Romans and the Greeks as a sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0310SunGod.html#top

Im glad this Author represents your view so well, Im wondering what it is we are disagreeing about then.

Happy Winter Solstice to you also.

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/19/2004 at 09:15 PM

Consigliere pic

Iv never denied there could possibly be a real person behind the Myth of Jesus, actually that is highly probable.
There very well could have been a real person....

vs.

Simple, Jesus is entirely fictional,…

&

....Jesus simply not existing is virtually irrefutable.

&

Yes my position is that Jesus is entirely fictional…

Nunya, you’re position changes with each direction of the wind.  Disappointing.  long face

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/19/2004 at 10:31 PM

Nunyabiz pic

Let me make myself perfectly clear for the 100th time for what good it will do.

When I say “JESUS” in the context of which you believe which is some messiah, a divine GODMAN, etc.
Then YES that character which IS what we are talking about here is ENTIRELY FICTIONAL.

Just like SANTA CLAUSE is entirely FICTIONAL as a REAL entity, even though St. Nicholas is not.
Therefore a real person could possibly be behind the fictional Jesus character, be it Apollonius of Tyana, Yeshu Ben Pantera or whom ever, which I explained very clearly above, the existence of some Jewish militant or whatever that could be the basis of the Christian MYTH of some SUN GOD which is positively fictional, is positively made up of attributes of much older Kemetic god Heru, the entire biblical story is obviously an Astrological Drama written in the pagan passion play style.

Once again are you really this dense?

Or are you simply evading the real issues which you simply have no answers for?

My Position has not changed in the slightest, you are simply avoiding the Astrological origins of the Bible and the Jesus MYTH in anyway you can.

Disappointing

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/20/2004 at 12:29 AM

Consigliere pic

Once again are you really this dense?

Yep.  When I read “entirely fictional,” that means entirely fictional to me. 

If you believe that Jesus lived, engaged in some type of teaching, was crucified, suffered, died, and was buried, then our discussion is done. 

The rest of the discussion, well I’ll leave that to someone else.

Quick note, I do agree with you that there was no world wide flood, nor is the creation account in Genesis a blow by blow account of how we got here.

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/20/2004 at 10:18 AM

Nunyabiz pic

If you believe that Jesus lived, engaged in some type of teaching, was crucified, suffered, died, and was buried, then our discussion is done.

Wow, I swear I feel like I get understood by my Cat more than I do you.

What part of this do you not understand?

JESUS as a real person is entirely FICTIONAL.

Now there MAY have possibly been a real person that this entirely FICTIONAL character was loosely based on.

This REAL person MAY have been Apollonius of Tyana,(Never crucified, though was an extremely popular & brilliant teacher who’s life was very well documented) Yeshu Ben Pantera,(was hung on a tree I think before the alleged Jesus character was even born & was a magician I believe) are the 2 leading possibilities if in fact there even was a real ONE person they used, could very easily have used a conglomeration of several people found in “oral tradition” as there were many such alleged “Messiahs” strolling around Jerusalem during that time, for instance there are several 100 TODAY thinking they are the Messiah.

The NAME of Jesus of Nazareth is entirely fictional,(the Jesus name translates to “Savior” & “Nazareth” in fact did not even exist at the time) everything attributed to this fictional character such as any miracles of anykind, healing, blah blah, all made up Bullshit.

You have to remember this fiction was made up at least 40+ years after the time it allegedly took place, whomever wrote this fiction, ( I wont mention the “P” word) be it some Roman Aristocrat or who ever probably tried to tie this fictional SUN GOD in with some oral tradition of sorts in order to breathe some resemblance of life into this character.
A Jewish militant would have made the perfect model.

So let me take these points one at a time and explain them sslloowwllyy to you.

“If you believe that Jesus lived”
As a REAL person? JESUS? NO! the name itself is entirely fictional as is virtually everything the SUN GOD supposedly did as written in the Astrological Drama called the NT. There was not ONE single word written about or by this fictional person at anytime during his alleged 30+ years, not a single word until at least 40+ years later and even then nobody except Josephus (94CE, 60+ Years later) in what appears to be one of the many Christian forgeries mentions him, then nobody anywhere mentions any of these Gospels until some 140+ years later.

“engaged in some type of teaching”
Once again as “JESUS” NO!
In oral tradition maybe some ideas coming from someone like Apollonius of Tyana? Sure thing, his life was well known with many volumes of books written both BY HIM and by several others, the fictional life of Jesus actually mirrors the REAL life of Apollonius in many respects.

“was crucified”
As “JESUS”? meaning real person NO! As the Fictional SUN GOD? Absofuckinlutely, that’s the entire M.O of being a SUN GOD to be “Crucified” ever heard of a “Scapegoat”? 
“Some animal was used by different nations to carry off the imaginary load of the people’s sins. For the Jews it was a scapegoat, for the Egyptians scape-ox, for the Hindus a scape-horse, for the Chaldeans a scape-ram, for the Britons a scape-bull, for the Mexicans a scape-lamb and scape- mouse, for the Tamalese their scape-hen, and for the Christians at a later period a scape-God. Jesus Christ is a scape-God for Christians, because he serves the same function as the goat did to the Jews. Like the goat he carried away the sins of the people—now the people of the whole world, as long as they believe. At the time of Christ, offerings of a lamb or a goat were common for the remission of sins. Note that Jesus is called the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29) Two thousand years ago the Mexican indians sacrificed a lamb as an atonement, calling it the Lamb of God. The conception is the same—atonement for sin by taking an innocent life for a guilty life.
Peter (1 Peter 2:24) declares Christ bore our sins upon his own body on a tree, showing that the whole conception is of the same heathen origin. When Christians laugh at the Jewish superstition of a scapegoat, let them consider how more sensible and intelligent they are disposing of their sins on the body of a God.”

There were something like 15-20 such “crucified sun gods”

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0710JesusMyth.html#top

This whole concept is quite literally INSANE, to believe such tripe places you in the very same mindset as ancient Bedouins/Savages.

In this time of human evolution I find it impossible to believe personally that well in excess of a Billion humans on this planet still believe such ignorance. Such is the travesty of this extremely debilitating & dangerous MIND PLAGUE called Religion.

“suffered”

No suffering involved since Jesus was entirely Fictional, although 1000s that were crucified obviously suffered.

“died, and was buried”

Whomever was ever crucified died and got buried, Unfortunately that didn’t happen to our fictitious Sun God did it?

He allegedly rose again, was never “buried” to say so means you obviously do NOT believe your own tripe, hell our ever present Sun God even talks to people TODAY, our so called President has full blown conversations with him where this Sun God tells him who to attack and when, others are told to bash their children’s heads inn with rocks.

The rest of the discussion, well I’ll leave that to someone else.

You mean the part about the Bible being an Astrological Drama with the fictional Jesus as the main role of the Sun God?

Yes of course you will, there is no defense other than stick your fingers in your ears and shout LALALALALALALALALA! which is basically what you are doing.

So best to leave that to someone else smile

Quick note, I do agree with you that there was no world wide flood, nor is the creation account in Genesis a blow by blow account of how we got here.

If you dont believe genesis then you dont believe Christianity, remember Jesus IS God, therefore IS the alleged creator of the World, also is the same genocidal maniac vengeful, hateful piece of shit that supposedly brutally murdered millions in the OT.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/20/2004 at 11:01 AM

Nunyabiz pic

Oh and one more thing about the name “JESUS”
are you even aware at all that the actual name Jesus in fact did not even exist more than 500 years ago as the “Letter J” in fact did not even exist until then.
Even in the original KJV of the Bible it was spelled “Iesous”!

The name is derived from the Hebrew “Yahushua” which translated to Greek was “Iesous” then “transliterated” from Greek to Latin was “Iesus” then for some reason carried over to “Jesus” finally in English just a few hundred years ago.

And as Iv said before the city of Nazareth did NOT exist actually until early in the 2nd century CE.
So the original name used must have been either Yahushua if you were Jewish, and since the Gospels were written originally in either Greek or Roman then maybe “Iesous” was the more common name used for this Sun God.

DWangerin United States Posted on 12/20/2004 at 03:53 PM

DWangerin pic

Two thousand years ago the Mexican indians sacrificed a lamb as an atonement

Actually, there weren’t any lambs in the Americas until the Europeans brought them.  The ancient peoples of central Mexico (Ulmecs, Toltecs, Aztecs, etc) had only turkeys and dogs as “meat” animals.

Beyond that small nitpick, excellent information- keep it coming!

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/20/2004 at 05:18 PM

Nunyabiz pic

actually one other “meat animal” I guess the Aztecs had was all the HUMANS they sacrificed.
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztecs/sacrifice.htm

Im thinking that was supposed to be “llama” not Lamb actually.

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/20/2004 at 08:46 PM

THEOCRAT pic

Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
And as Iv said before the city of Nazareth did NOT exist actually until early in the 2nd century CE.
So the original name used must have been either Yahushua if you were Jewish, and since the Gospels were written originally in either Greek or Roman then maybe “Iesous� was the more common name used for this Sun God.

References please.

I am finished with finals.  I am going to take it easy for a week and then I will try sorting through this mess.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/20/2004 at 11:34 PM

Nunyabiz pic

Nazareth....case closed.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html

The name “Jesus” did not exist until about 500 years ago.
http://www.eliyah.com/nameson.htm

DWangerin United States Posted on 12/21/2004 at 01:03 AM

DWangerin pic

The Aztecs did not practice cannibalism, so humans were not used for food.  Llamas (and I think alpacas) were in South America where the Incans were the dominant power.  Llamas were never sucessfully brought above the isthmus of Panama until after the arrival of Europeans.  For more info on this, read the excellent book “Guns, Germs, and Steel” by Jarrod Diamond.

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/21/2004 at 01:07 AM

Consigliere pic

Nunya:

You truly give me a headache.  You run around grabbing bits and pieces from all over the place and repeating them as if they are part of a coherent theory of yours, which is why I was interested if you have one. 

When I said that Dr. Magee was closer to my position, I meant CLOSER, not that he stated my position.  It is worth noting that the only thing he has in common with your position is a that he sees some elements of a sun god woven into who Jesus was and that as a result of this the historicity of who Jesus was has become mythical in some respects. 

However he does believe that there was Jesus. That Jesus lived, that he taught, that he was crucified, suffered (he doesn’t explicityl state this, but I think crucifixation certainly implies this, and that he died.

From Dr. Magee--Your Source:

The Essene leader, Jesus, who had been crucified as a seditionist by the Romans, was believed by some of his converts to have been the first of the saints to have risen, the promise of this being that the kingdom of God would begin within forty years.

Jesus was no wine bibber because he was Nazir.

Jesus believed there was no time to put his converts through the three years of training needed to become an orthodox Essene because the kingdom of God was nigh! Instead, he was calling Jews to purify themselves spiritually and physically by repenting and being baptised in expectation of the imminent arrival of God’s kingdom.

After Jesus’s ultimate failure and crucifixion, ....

The historic Jesus died in obscurity and returned to a darker obscurity than that he emerged from because it is false.

The clear impetus from Dr. Magee was that: 1) Jesus lived; 2) Jesus was an Essene; 3) As such he was a revolutionary in the sense that Nazoreans were; 4) That as such he was seen as a revolutionary by the authorities; 5) He was crucified for that; 6) He died; 7) He was forgotten; 8) He was “resurrected” by Paul or someone like Paul for political purposes; 9) The “resurrected” version contains element of sun worship and earlier Egyptian Essene traditions ripped off from the Persians found in Enoch.

On points 1-6, Magee and I agree.  There was an actual person named Jesus, he lived, he taught, he was crucified, he suffered, he died and he was buried. That has been my position here. You have denied that.  Magee is, as I stated, closer to my position, although he and I do have a significant divergance on points 7 & 8.

If you dont believe genesis then you dont believe Christianity,

A majority of Christian denominations don’t believe Genesis is a blow by blow account of creation (whether the people in pews do is a different story altogether.) Not believing Genesis sets out blow by blow how creation occurred, only means that the Bible is not a science book, not that there wasn’t a Creator.

Theocrat:

Nazoreans were a very nationalist sect within the Essenes.  They believed in baptism by immersion as practiced by John the Baptist.  Their diet was strict and they encouraged fasting.  The also had an obsession about washing. They were not people from Nazareth. 

Although I think Robert Eisenman in “James, the Brother of Jesus” plays fast and loose with some texts and is often times enamored with his own writing such that the book is unnecessarily long and boring, he does a good job of setting out very credibly how the confusion regarding Nazareth resulted.  I would recommend reading it, if for that reason alone. 

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/21/2004 at 01:24 AM

Nunyabiz pic

No problem either way, FACT is no such person as a Christian Messiah, a Godman here on Earth existed then right?
Then what are you arguing about? Whether or not Santa Clause exist?
There is not a single mention of any “Jesus” ANYWHERE during his alleged lifetime.
You can call Apollonius or yeshu, or whomever jesus all you like, fine, then to you someone named jesus existed without a shred of evidence but was NOT in fact “Jesus of Nazareth” or “Jesus Christ” as a real GOD whom was crucified and rose again to save all mankind.

Good Case closed.

Glad you agree.

I dont have time for the next several days to continue with your circular argument of total lack of comprehension of what you read

Consigliere United States Posted on 01/05/2005 at 04:55 PM

Consigliere pic

Nunya/Les:

I’ve seen you both indicate that Horus was born of a virgin.  From my review of the Horus material, which I will admit is not done from original texts but from on-line comparisons, I find no indication that Isis is a virgin.

To the contrary, I find that Isis is married for some time to Osiris, and presumably that marriage was consummated.  Seth kills Osiris, in part because he wants to take a turn at Isis too.  Horus doesn’t show up in the story until Isis has consummated her marriage and likely been soiled by Seth. 

Does either of you have a specific reference that contains a version of the legends that states that Isis is a virgin prior to giving birth to Horus?

Regards,
Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Consigliere United States Posted on 01/06/2005 at 12:50 AM

Consigliere pic

Nunya/Les:

Further research has revealed that there were multiple Horuses (sp?).  It could be that I’m not looking at the right Horus.  Which Horus are you referencing:

1) Haroeris (Horus the Elder)

2) Ra-Harakhte (Horus of the two horizons)

3) Harmakhet (Horus in the Horizon)

4) Harsiesis (Horus son of Isis)

5) Harpokrates (The infant Horus)

6) Harendotes (Horus the avenger of his father)

7) Har-pa-Neb-Taui (Horus Lord of the Two Lands)

8) Some amalgamation of the 7 above

9) Some other Horus.

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self--well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 01/06/2005 at 12:59 AM

elwedriddsche pic

Just look at the horuscope.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 01/18/2005 at 08:32 AM

Nunyabiz pic

As usual you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

There are hundreds of “Heru’s/ Horus’s” just like there are hundreds of Ra’s Hundreds of Isis’s.
“Isis-Meri” being one. You keep for some unknown reason keep trying to equate these fairytales with factual reality.
Just like your Sun god there is zero evidence of any of it, its just fantasy.

That is the Kemetic “Belief” and after all just like YOUR belief that is what we are talking about here, mere belief, none of what we are talking about here, YOUR SUN GOD included is based on a REAL person of any kind, these are parables, stories, tales, moral homilies.

You can try all you like to deny the Isis-Meri parable is not a Virgin in your eyes, no problem.

Makes ZERO difference in the whole theme here .

I do find it rather odd though that this (as the fairytale goes) all powerful Isis, which was a magician, a goddess of the Earth, Goddess of Corn, Goddess of the underworld, whom was able to take the form of a bird to fly all up and down the Nile guarded by 7 scorpions and accompanied by Anubus which took the form of a Jackal, when she found each piece she “magically formed a likeness of Osiris’s body from it” thus making 13 Osiris’s to be worshipped in each spot a piece was found, then took all the pieces sans one, “magically” made them all whole through casting her spells, then drew out his essence etc…

So for some reason to YOU, all this is possible to believe in this story, YET Isis-Meri being a Virgin because she was supposedly married to her Brother/Husband/fellow god Osiris, is just impossible and something that you are flatly going to deny at all cost? Because YOU dont believe that she could marry her brother and not “consummate it” LOL
Isis can do ANYTHING “except make herself a Virgin” ROTFL.

There is basically nothing this Isis, or Horus, Osiris, Ra etc. could not do, they were “Gods” could do anything anytime anywhere for any reason, so guess what?

Lets just pull out that ever present Fundamentalist Christian trick shall we?

Im just going wave that “magic wand” and make Isis-Meri a VIRGIN, Tada. So there ya go, Isis-Meri is a virgin.

BTW there is ZERO proof of your alleged Mary being a Virgin, or for that matter even existing in the first place.
There is just as much proof that says Mary was a WHORE in the parable as there is to the contrary.

Then what is it exactly you are trying to disprove or prove here?
There are hundreds of similarities between Horus & your Sun god, so whether or not you cant except that Isis is a mythical goddess that can do anything she damn well likes, “including making herself a perpetual virgin” or not is a moot point.
Or are you trying to prove that only one “Virgin Birth” allegedly ever happened?
So you are going to flatly deny ALL the other tales of the 15-20 or so other Sun Gods all of course “Born of a Virgin”?

If not, then the alleged virgin birth of YOUR particular sun god is not unique, as a matter of fact its old hat, the virgin birth story had been told about dozens of deities long before your little invisible sun god stepped onto the scene.
So whether or not you refuse to accept the Isis-Meri begot Horus through a virgin birth or not basically means zilch.

Once again what we are talking about here, which you still flatly refuse to acknowledge is the FACT that all of these stories, tales, parables, are merely Astrological Dramas, the characters in these fairytales are Allegories for Celestial bodies.
I.E. the “Virgin” in ALL of these stories is “Virgo”.
There is more than ample proof for this, yet not a single shred of evidence to suggest that your alleged SUN god ever existed in factual reality.

So once again, what is FACT is that SUN GOD=JESUS to deny this FACT is your option but to try and disprove it is pure folly on your part.

Everette O Lemons United States Posted on 02/09/2005 at 10:57 PM

Everette O Lemons pic

Hi, enjoyed the article, and I must say that if anyone attempts to live their life through the teachings of Christ it would be difficult for them to go wrong. However, I am against Theocracy in general, and specifically its implied fundamentalist nature directed at religious dogma.
There is still yet to be provided any substantial proof for the existence of a divine being, hence any ideology supporting such an existence must not propagate into the political and ruling sphere of any nation.
To be sure, all humans are born with two desires, those being self-preservation and sexual desire. Everything beyond that must be learned, and learned through perceptions, to include emotions, languages or communication skills, religious beliefs, so forth and so on. But everything we perceive and learn is done so in terms of ourselves and ultimately used in the pursuit of contentment, which is the very basis of self-preservation.
With the knowledge that no two people can ever perceive the same thing in the same manner at any time, regardless of how similar such perceptions may be, each individual will define contentment differently. This is due to the fact that everyone perceives things in terms of themselves, to include such things as morals, poliitcal and economic systems, values, and of course religiously guided ideologies.
What occurs in a Theocracy, is people being forced to perceive and consequently think in a particular fashion, but in a fashion that is merely ideologically righteous. In essence, such a concept is attempting to control the perceptual spatial proximities of large masses of people based upon a mere belief acquired through perceptions, or in essence becomes faith-based tyranny. Humans will always have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong obviously, and this again is due to perceptions and is not genetically linked.
Perceptions allow us to learn such things as religiously based ideologies, however the mere knowledge of such does not imply its authenticity. When you attempt to govern through putatively divine means, you are not only creating a state of tyranny based upon perceptions regarding a religious faith, but you are attempting to force your own beliefs based upon your own perceptions on others.  Humans do not have the ability to perceive in terms of Christ as St Paul said that we should. This is impossible, for we can only perceive in terms of ourselves, and specifically in pursuit of contentment, regardless of the strength regarding any one faith.
Contentment must necessarily be achieved for anyone to self-preserve, and this includes any divine being. For if such a being were not sufficiently content, it would not continue to exist. In essence, if a divine being exists, it does so because it desires to, meanining it is content with its existence. The same applies to humans, but we can only achieve contentment, or what makes us content individually in terms of ourselves, and not in terms of anything or anyone else. This may sound selfish, but that is the way humans exist. If we help others, we do so because we care for others, but only because we perceive others in terms of ourselves. Such aid to others also makes us feel good, and thus it aids our contentment.
Humans live for contentment which can only be defined in terms of ourselves, and specifically through our perceptions. Thus, no one ideology, divinely originated or not can possibly appeal to everyone. Thus, to propagate such an ideology into the governing scheme of any nation, whereby each and every individual must abide by its consructs is clearly tyranny.
Capitalism continues to flourish due to its adherence to the ‘natural selection’ aspect of Darwinian Evolution, wherein the strong or those of brutal will will rule the self-restricting. Such an economic scheme is built upon the premise of adapting, overcoming, and progressing. Progressing not in terms of ecology, but in terms of ensuring contentment in an economically driven world.
Socialism and its revolutionary end Communism is difficult to appeal to humans simply because it requires and demands economic equality. People are willing to give to charities but are not willing to pay higher taxes for such things as free healthcare for everyone. If it doesn’t directly aid our contentment, then we don’t participate in it. Socialism can only exist when people sincerely desire to help other people, which can only occur when they perceive it as such. Likewise, any Theocracy can only exist when all people believe in the same manner. Neither of these conditions can exist without perceptual redundancy within each area, and specifically in terms of how either one aids the contentment of those it attempts to appeal to. Many have divine beliefs, but only because it brings them contentment. Either they are trully fulfilled by the belief, or they satisfy their contentment by disposing of fear in regards to not believing. Either way, any such belief is done so for contentment, and in terms of each individual.
We build civilizations to avoid anarchy, and likewise anarchy can indeed create conditions of tyranny. But even in Capitalistic and Socialistic Democracies tyranny is capable of existing. However, the existence of tyranny in the form of forcing members of a population to conduct themselves according to some written law nevertheless exists for the protection of others, which in humanistic terms can only be perceived as righteous. Conversely, a Theocracy merely protects an ideology, which for all intents and purposes is relegated to faith.

Brother Mark Burton United States Posted on 09/29/2005 at 08:49 PM

Brother Mark Burton pic

Greetings! in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ who is God Almighty. Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Some truth with what you said on your website, but I have to disagree with you about you being a born again Christian. It is more likely that you are a servant of the devil out of hell. For even Satan himself says some truth, but he is still the father of lies. Therefore,

Repent of ye sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and recieve ye the Holy Ghost as evidence by speaking in tongues as the Spirit of God gives the utterance and submit yourself unto the way of Holiness that ye may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus and participate in the theocracy of the living God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

If ye do not obey this message from the servant of the Lord Jesus Christ then eternal hell ye will go with your democratic contempraries for eternity.

Brother Mark Burton
Church website: http://www.truthofGod.com
Email:

Les United States Posted on 09/29/2005 at 09:17 PM

Les pic

Blah blah blah blah blah. Not sure who you’re talking to, but it’s pretty fuckin’ funny just the same.

 Signature 

Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. - David Viaene

Brock United States Posted on 09/29/2005 at 09:43 PM

Brock pic

Ye are a fucking loon, Brother Mark Burton. Do ye know that?

Seriously, what is this world coming to when people like this nut-case exist in the 21st century?

 Signature 

“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

flashgordon20x6 United States Posted on 09/29/2005 at 11:20 PM

flashgordon20x6 pic

Hey Burton,

Too bad the Apostle Paul wrote that no one can preach the name of Jesus except by the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

This is a warning. I believe you have treaded dangerously close to blasphemy, maybe even against the Holy Spirit. (Luke 12, Mark 3) It is not for me to judge so, but you are on perilous ground, there. Please be careful what you say about other people who claim Christ as their Savior.

Also, your page says that baptism is part of salvation.

-Ephesians 2:8-9 says “for by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

-Romans 10:9-10 says “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth you confess and are saved.”

Clearly baptism is not mentioned. HmmMM.

And, as far as ‘tongues’ goes, also in Corinthians 12, Paul VERY CLEARLY mentions “speaking in different kinds of tongues” being “given to SOME” as one of many “different kinds of gifts.” He also says “There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.” (v 4-6)

I read your page, and you’d better reckon with those verses before you make claims that tongues must be found in all saved men as evidence of salvation.

I’d better stop. I hope you’ll be careful next time.

Mike

PS. God is not a registered member of any political party.

Page 10 of 11 pages « First  <  8 9 10 11 >

Name:

Email:

Location:

URL:

Smileys


Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Submit the word you see below:


<< Back to main

Stupid Evil Bastard