Theocracy: A Beginning

Posted by THEOCRAT on Monday, December 06, 2004 at 06:48 PM. Read 6249 times. Tags: ,
{name} pic

Some personal info about me before we begin.  I am a born again Christian that believes the Bible is the inspired word of God.  This entire article is written from such a perspective that the Bible is entirely true.  It’s only been about six months since I’ve given up on human governance.  Before then I was following the relgious right like a good little boy.  I began to be disconcerted with politics when I joined the Protest Warrior bulletin board.  Reading the threads on that board the political discussions were food fights.  No organization and both sides had several points they weren’t addressing and it would always dissolve into name calling.  I saw several good leftist arguments that I had never heard before and no one was addressing.  All through high school I read World Net Daily almost religiously.  I debated anyone who took up the issue and always won because in high school even the leftists aren’t very well informed.

College came and I was still vehemently against the left.  I met people I never dreamed could exist.  Leftist Christians.  Who knew?  One day while defending the merits of George Bush I began to notice that my friend’s voice and my voice were getting louder and louder.  He eventually gave up the argument and started to walk out of the room.  I followed him into the hall continuing to shout praises to Bush.  When I finally calmed down I reflected on my behavior toward my brother in Christ.  Needless to say I felt really guilty.  Brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to build each other up not tear each other down and especially not on something as meaningless as politics.

I eventually got around to asking myself where did Christ stand on the political compass and how should that affect me?  I began to study government structures in the Bible and how Christ and other disciples interacted with their authorities.  I started with observing Jesus interaction with the Pharisees and looking at the one political question he was asked.

Matthew 22:15-21
(15)  Then the Pharisees went away and planned to trap Jesus into saying the wrong thing.  (16)  They sent their disciples to him along with Herod’s followers. They said to him, “Teacher, we know that you tell the truth and that you teach the truth about the way of God. You don’t favor individuals because of who they are.  (17)  So tell us what you think. Is it right to pay taxes to the emperor or not?“  (18)  Jesus recognized their evil plan, so he asked, “Why do you test me, you hypocrites?  (19)  Show me a coin used to pay taxes.“ They brought him a coin.  (20)  He said to them, “Whose face and name is this?“  (21)  They replied, “The emperor’s.“ Then he said to them, “Very well, give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, and give God what belongs to God.“

Christ is giving an answer that recognizes God as the ultimate authority.  If he said simply to pay taxes the Pharisees would have charged him with not giving to God what is God’s.  If he had said do not pay taxes then the Pharisees would have charged him with disobeying the authority.  The Pharisees were expecting a yes or no answer.  Christ side stepped their intentions by telling them both are important.  The fact that this is the only situation he was confronted with a political question (to our knowledge) also is indicative that his concern was with people more than it was with the authorities.

Another passage I studied in search for Biblical ideals for government would be the Acts churches.

Acts 2:42-47
(42)  The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.  (43)  A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles.  (44)  All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other.  (45)  From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.  (46)  The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other’s homes and shared their food.  (47)  At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group.

Acts 4:23-37
(23)  When Peter and John were released, they went to the other apostles and told them everything the chief priests and leaders had said.  (24)  When the apostles heard this, they were united and loudly prayed to God, “Master, you made the sky, the land, the sea, and everything in them.  (25)  You said through the Holy Spirit, who spoke through your servant David (our ancestor), ‘Why do the nations act arrogantly? Why do their people devise useless plots?  (26)  Kings take their stand. Rulers make plans together against the Lord and against his Messiah.‘  (27)  “In this city Herod and Pontius Pilate made plans together with non-Jewish people and the people of Israel. They made their plans against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.  (28)  Through your will and power, they did everything that you had already decided should be done.  (29)  “Lord, pay attention to their threats now, and allow us to speak your word boldly.  (30)  Show your power by healing, performing miracles, and doing amazing things through the power and the name of your holy servant Jesus.“  (31)  When the apostles had finished praying, their meeting place shook. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God boldly.  (32)  The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.  (33)  With great power the apostles continued to testify that the Lord Jesus had come back to life. God’s abundant good will was with all of them.  (34)  None of them needed anything. From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money (35)  to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it.  (36)  Joseph, a descendant of Levi, had been born on the island of Cyprus. The apostles called him Barnabas, which means “a person who encourages.“  (37)  He had some land. He sold it and turned the money over to the apostles.

Acts 6:1-7
(1)  At that time, as the number of disciples grew, Greek-speaking Jews complained about the Hebrew-speaking Jews. The Greek-speaking Jews claimed that the widows among them were neglected every day when food and other assistance was distributed.  (2)  The twelve apostles called all the disciples together and told them, “It’s not right for us to give up God’s word in order to distribute food.  (3)  So, brothers and sisters, choose seven men whom the people know are spiritually wise. We will put them in charge of this problem.  (4)  However, we will devote ourselves to praying and to serving in ways that are related to the word.“  (5)  The suggestion pleased the whole group. So they chose Stephen, who was a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and they chose Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, who had converted to Judaism in the city of Antioch.  (6)  The disciples had these men stand in front of the apostles, who prayed and placed their hands on these seven men.  (7)  The word of God continued to spread, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem grew very large. A large number of priests accepted the faith.

These societies were basically theocratic societies.  They devoted their time to sudying and growing in God.  No concern was given to the activities of the king or the government.  They had the good will of the people which likely means they were in no way shape or form coming across as overbearing or forcing their religion or forcing their politics, etc.  It seems to me this happens by being respectful of people’s opinions, talking about religion in casual conversation when it comes up and not trying to bring it up to ‘save’ them, and most importantly practicing what is preached.

Theocracy was the original government of Israel until the people decided a human leader, they could see, would be better than a flawless god.

Exodus 18:13-26
(13)  The next day Moses was settling disputes among the people, and he was kept busy from morning till night.  (14)  When Jethro saw everything that Moses had to do, he asked, “What is all this that you are doing for the people? Why are you doing this all alone, with people standing here from morning till night to consult you?“  (15)  Moses answered, “I must do this because the people come to me to learn God’s will.  (16)  When two people have a dispute, they come to me, and I decide which one of them is right, and I tell them God’s commands and laws.“  (17)  Then Jethro said, “You are not doing this right.  (18)  You will wear yourself out and these people as well. This is too much for you to do alone.  (19)  Now let me give you some good advice, and God will be with you. It is right for you to represent the people before God and bring their disputes to him.  (20)  You should teach them God’s commands and explain to them how they should live and what they should do.  (21)  But in addition, you should choose some capable men and appoint them as leaders of the people: leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. They must be God-fearing men who can be trusted and who cannot be bribed.  (22)  Let them serve as judges for the people on a permanent basis. They can bring all the difficult cases to you, but they themselves can decide all the smaller disputes. That will make it easier for you, as they share your burden.  (23)  If you do this, as God commands, you will not wear yourself out, and all these people can go home with their disputes settled.“  (24)  Moses took Jethro’s advice (25)  and chose capable men from among all the Israelites. He appointed them as leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens.  (26)  They served as judges for the people on a permanent basis, bringing the difficult cases to Moses but deciding the smaller disputes themselves.

1 Samuel 8
(1)  When Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel.  (2)  The name of his firstborn son was Joel; the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba.  (3)  The sons didn’t follow their father’s example but turned to dishonest ways of making money. They took bribes and denied people justice.  (4)  Then all the leaders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah.  (5)  They told him, “You’re old, and your sons aren’t following your example. Now appoint a king to judge us so that we will be like all the other nations.“  (6)  But Samuel considered it wrong for them to request a king to judge them. So Samuel prayed to the LORD.  (7)  The LORD told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me.  (8)  They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt-leaving me and serving other gods.  (9)  Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.“  (10)  Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the LORD had said.  (11)  Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king: He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.  (12)  He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.  (13)  He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.  (14)  He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.  (15)  He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.  (16)  He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle, and your donkeys for his own use.  (17)  He will take a tenth of your flocks. In addition, you will be his servants.  (18)  “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The LORD will not answer you when that day comes.“  (19)  But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king!  (20)  Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out to war, and fight our battles.“  (21)  When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the LORD.  (22)  The LORD told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.“ Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go back to your own cities.“

God’s original intention was to provide the needs of His creation.  But as the creation rejects Him they replace His leadership as well.  God intended to provide for Adam and Eve so they wuldn’t ever have to work, but they disobeyed His one command so God made it so he would have to work for a living from the Earth to get by.  Noticing the progression of structure in the Bible from God directly ruling, to having judges, to having kings, I recognize that the more human involvement there is in government structure the farther we get from being able to discern God’s will.  I propose democracy is the least of all ideologies because putting the power to judge and legislate in the hands of the corrupt masses only furthers corruption.

Finally the last scripture that gives me a desire to understand a theocracy is because according to the account John provides in Revelation there will be one when Christ comes back to reign for a millenium.

Revelation 20:4-6
(4)  Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.  (5)  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead.  (6)  Happy and greatly blessed are those who are included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:3-7
(3)  I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God’s home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God.  (4)  He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.“  (5)  Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!“ He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.“  (6)  And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.  (7)  Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.

Theocracy was the original governing ideology of the Earth.  It is the governing ideology of Heaven.  It will be the governing ideology of Earth again.  I hope to live long enough to see it reinstated some day.

So now I have provided quite the Biblical background for what it was, is and will be, but practically it’s hard to understand what it may look like to the common citizen of such a government.  I am not greatly educated on the differences between socialism and communism or I could state that it looks like one or the other.  It will be a utopian society with minimal government structure, just enough to make sure those in need get appropriate care.  A government headed by Christ can not be selfish or greedy or unfair.  The only one that should have absolute power to rule is the one that currently holds it.  The one who should be allowed to judge should be the only one with an omniscient standing.  Christ is flawless and can not be the cause of corrupt government.  Communism and socialsim don’t work because the guy in charge doesn’t want to work his butt off for a wage the lowest worker gets paid for with much less effort.  However under theocracy, people become concerned with the well being of others before themselves and the higher up the government chain of command the more so that becomes true.  Utopian society has one flaw that keeps it from working and that is the selfish nature of humans.  Theocracy takes care of this problem.

Adam Smith’s theories changed the face of economic practice.  Laissez-faire economics, as time has proven IMO, has done little more than encourage social caste systems and poverty.  Eventually someone figures out how to take advantage of the system and we get monopolies because no one tried to stop the selfish desires of an ambitious few.  I remember the points of relevance made in the movie “A Beautiful Mind” about John Nash’s theory.  While I haven’t read the theory myself what I got from the movie is that the best thing for the economy is not free competition but cooperation.  Do what is best for the group and you will get off better than you would most likely than by competing.  I believe charity is the means to the end of poverty, not welfare or legislation.  People giving the abundance they have of their own free will to be distributed to the needy is the best solution.  In theocracy it would seem you would worry about people still being selfish in nature, but as the leadership provides an example to live by and they have a god they desire to please, they will desire to give what they can out of their own free will.  No one will force them or persecute them if they don’t, but they will eventually choose to because it encourages the growth of society better than anything else.

So how would I say such seemingly impractical beliefs influence my every day life?  It actually affects my life in many ways.  Most obviously I don’t support human governance.  I don’t vote or endorse any politician because I don’t want to associate my moral values with the actions of anyone else.

Psalms 118:8-9
(8)  It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on people.  (9)  It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on human leaders.

I try not to even talk about theocracy unless asked because I never want to come across as pushing my views on people.  Pushing my views on people would contradict the basis of the intentions of such a belief.  I don’t discuss current politics with people, as far as making judgements about whether the dems or GOP is right.  It doesn’t matter to me who is right if I don’t support them and don’t follow their beliefs anyways.  My concern is that the Church is trying to become too much of a political power and its desire for political power is severely damaging the cause it is charged with overseeing in the Bible.  The Church is supposed to be concerned with people’s souls not their political leanings.  Politics is a distraction to the purpose of the Church.  I believe it is much more effective anyways to make a moral impact by being legitimately concerned with people, caring for them, and practicing what you preach.  You can’t force people to be moral.  Legislation for moral values I think if anything only makes things worse becuase not only do you take away a person’s right to exercise free will, but you also may invoke in them a natural desire to rebel against authority.  Morality is promoted one on one by investing time in people’s lives.

I very rarely read the news anymore.  I believe freedom of the press has done little more than encourage more lies to be published than truth.  Freedom of the press has turned truth into a gray issue.  Under a monarchy or dictatorship there seems to be much less gray and more black and white.  Under theocracy God is not going lie so we don’t even have to worry about anything.

Some may say if you don’t stand up for others then who will stand up for you when you are left all alone.  I say it doesn’t matter.  No government no matter the ideology or structure can destroy my free will to do what I please anyways.  If the government wants to take away my rights let them do so.  Until they take away rights that make me unable to follow the commandments of God, I have no reason to rebel.  If they even go so far as to make Christianity illegal, it wouldn’t matter and would more likely be a mistake on their part.  People that face high amounts of religious persecution thrive better in such states anyways.  The church in China is the fastest growing on Earth thanks to the Communist party.  If the Communists really wanted to get rid of the Church they would make Christianity the official religion and provide benefits to the Christians.  Complacency kills the Church faster than anything else.  The Church in America has been weakened by our current government system because there really isn’t enough separation between church and state.  When you can make people feel they don’t need God, what they believe doesn’t matter, because their faith really does begin to lie with their own abilities.

(Note: This is definitely not super organized.  It is still very much under development.  I am hoping one day to be able to do enough background research on philosophy and history and in current events to develop the idea into a book.  What is seen here are the random arguments for theocracy that run around my own mind.  If you have suggestions of philosophers I should read I will definitely consider all of them.  I’m beginning a small collection all ready of major philosophies on my bookcase.)

Comments:

Page 9 of 11 pages « First  <  7 8 9 10 11 >

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 09:06 AM

Consigliere pic

You disagree, that is fine, but as you disagree you….then offer up in return what amounts basically to “the Bible saysâ€? line of reasoning.

Quote anywere fom any of my posts where I have used “the Bible says.“  Quote it to me in your next post or retract it please.

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self—well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 09:39 AM

Nunyabiz pic

Quote anywere fom any of my posts where I have used “the Bible says.� Quote it to me in your next post or retract it please.

Typical Christian logic.

Just like the Constitution does not specifically say “the Separation between Church & State” or “Religious Liberty” or “Right to Privacy” “Right to a fair trial” does not mean the Principle Idea is not there.
When I say it amounts to basically just a “the Bible Says” line of reasoning it does not mean necessarily that you actually said those “exact” words.
The principle meaning of your line of reasoning says it clear enough.
Unless of course I am mistakenly thinking that you in fact dont believe the bible as to its origin? If that is the case then I retract the statement, but would like to know if I may just where do you get your information then?
As there are no other sources that do not come either directly or indirectly from the Bible that agree with your position.

lachaim United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 10:10 AM

lachaim pic

To prove Jesus doesn’t exist which this does, completely negates anything else.
after that all you are doing is trying to prove who made up the fable.

Of course he exist…he talked to me.  He did not tell me he was just a continuation of Ra.  The Ra idea makes no sense.  Have you sat down and compared them?  I know from earlier posts that you have compared them by situational symbolism.  I mean compared them by their words and deeds.  Two different people completely.  Different goals.  Different agendas.  Jesus also said “I am the way, the truth and the life.“  “I am the bread…“, “I am the vine…“, “I am living water…“, “I am the door…“.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 10:22 AM

Nunyabiz pic

Jesus also said “I am the way, the truth and the life.â€? “I am the bread…â€?, “I am the vine…â€?, “I am living water…â€?, “I am the door…â€?.

So did the Kemetic Sun god Heru/Horus some 3000 years BEFORE the idea of Jesus ever existed.

Of course he exist…he talked to me.

Hmmm Might I suggest a double dose of Thorozine.

You can probably get this for free by simply going to your local Sanitarium, just walk up to front desk with your head tilted back, eyes closed, arms in the air waving back N forth is classic Christian trance fashion while quoting any verse of your choosing from the Bible.
Very shortly you will feel a net over your head, this is normal so do not resist or be afraid, you will feel a slight sting from the needle and should be fine.

lachaim United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 10:37 AM

lachaim pic

You can probably get this for free by simply going to your local Sanitarium, just walk up to front desk with your head tilted back, eyes closed, arms in the air waving back N forth is classic Christian trance fashion while quoting any verse of your choosing from the Bible.
Very shortly you will feel a net over your head, this is normal so do not resist or be afraid, you will feel a slight sting from the needle and should be fine.

Funny.  I’ll stick with caffeine.  It keeps me a little more lucid.  Thorozine is such a downer.  It’s easy to discredit and riducle someone’s experience if you have not had similar.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 10:59 AM

Nunyabiz pic

Ahhh, so then you are off your Meds then?

and on copious amounts of Caffeine?

I would think the Thorozine would have opened up the door to allow you to “experience” reality.

If I want to experience talking to Jesus I would take some Mushrooms, thing is though you see I need to induce hallucinations in order to experience what you do naturally.
You on the other hand need to “Induce Reality” through medication.
See the dilemma here?

lachaim United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 11:10 AM

lachaim pic

I have a grip on reality…I’m looking at my electric bill, gas bill, phone bill…and my bank account.  Yep, have plenty of reality. 

After my initial conversation with Jesus.  Thinking I was delussional based on things I had read in the past, I compared my experience to others and found that it was in fact quite common throughout history…Luther, John Wesley, Aquinas, A’Kempis, Apostle Paul, Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Brother Lawrence, C.S. Lewis, Madame Guyon, John Bunyon, Jonathan Edwards etc.  Although quirky folk I don’t think they warranted thorozine perhaps a good antidepressant.

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 01:45 PM

Consigliere pic

When I say it amounts to basically just a “the Bible Says� line of reasoning it does not mean necessarily that you actually said those “exact� words.
The principle meaning of your line of reasoning says it clear enough.
Unless of course I am mistakenly thinking that you in fact dont believe the bible as to its origin? If that is the case then I retract the statement…/]

I figure that is about the closest thing to a retraction that I will get from you.  So thank you.

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self—well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 04:27 PM

THEOCRAT pic

I’ve had one thing brought to my attention in this debate that I think might be worth sharing.
Nunyabiz’s reference to http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/institutional_analysis/histchr1.html does not contain any references to source material that helps support this conspiracy and the author himself shows no credentials that he should know what he is talking about.  Just thought I would throw that out there.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/17/2004 at 07:49 PM

Nunyabiz pic

I’ve had one thing brought to my attention in this debate that I think might be worth sharing.
Theo’s only reference http://www.bible.com/  does not contain any references to source material that helps support his theory and the authors which are Unknown show no credentials that they know what they are talking about.  Just thought I would throw that out there.

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 04:52 AM

Consigliere pic

Nunya:

I must admit that I had never heard of the Roman conspiracy theory until I read through this thread.  After giving some thought to that, I figured it would be a good idea to check and see if there was any serious research about this by folks who spend their days doing dull and boring things.

I couldn’t find anything written by anyone with any type of credentials in anything.  Well, I did find two quacks, Revilo P. Oliver, a Nazi Christ Myther, and Lt. Col. Gordon Jack Mohr, who appears to be a white supremacist.  Both responded to this theory, primarily because of who authored it.

It appears, that in its current incarnation, the Roman conspiracy theory originated in the late 70’s, culminating in a pamphlet that was published by the Abelard Reuchlin Foundation under the pseudonym Abelard Reuchlin entitled “True Authoriship of the New Testament.“

I have been able to locate absolutely nothing about this Foundation, other than to surmise from reading a letter to Col. Mohr from the Foundation, that it is, or was, some type of Jewish organization.  If you know anything about this organization, or if anybody else does, I’d be interested in hearing it.

It appears that John Doran, the author of the material that you are using was associated with the Foundation and was the actual author for the pamphlet.  He also appears to have multiple titles and copyrights to what are in essence the same article. I know of no books that the man has authored, nor am I aware of any scholarly articles written by him.  Again, any information that you or anyone else can provide would be appreciated.

It does appear, though I can’t confirm it, that Mr. Doran was inspired by James Ballantyne Hannay’s book The Decline and Fall of the Roman Religion, which I believe makes similar accusations-The Romans invented Christianity.  Hannay took it one step further though and said that the Romans also invented the Hebrew language and manufactured Judaism. 

Mr. Hannay appears to have been quite a character.  His claim to fame is that he produced the first synthetic diamond.  He was a devout atheist and published several other books.  He died in a mental institution in 1931.  Given the publication date for The Decline and Fall 1925, my initial thought was maybe he went wacko at the end.  Yet, the articles I’ve read about him indicate that he was obsessed with a Roman conspiracy theory most of his life.  (Amusingly, Marcus Eli Ravage published a tongue in cheek response to The Decline and Fall in 1928 in which he maintains that the Jews created Christianity to destroy the Roman Empire)

My review of the websites that want to push this theory reveal an eclectic bunch.  And I have to tell you this—there is least one that does say that the Aliens did it via the Romans!!!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!! 

Can you point me to any legitimate institution, author, website, anybody legit other than this John Doran who has stood up to be counted as an adherent to this theory?  If not, I believe that it is fair to say that what you believe makes the most sense is a fringe theory that has no scholarly support.
Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self—well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 07:58 AM

elwedriddsche pic

Heckles from the peanut gallery!

As far as I’m concerned, if JC is an actual historical figure or patterned after one, said person’s history has received extensive after-market upgrades. Or to put it another way, the unadulterated history was so unremarkable as to not warrant extensive - if any - mention in contemporary chronicles.

Having said that, may the contestants please resume their match?

wink

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 10:29 AM

Nunyabiz pic

Lets put it this way.

One thing I know from simply reading the Bible itself is that no such person as Jesus ever existed, the Bible is the most contradictory book ever written, It was obviously written as an Astrological story, with Jesus playing the main role of the Sun, of that there is no question.

The Jesus allegory is without question a virtual carbon copy of the Kemetic Sun god Heru.

The OT was without question contrived from much older paganism, The entire genesis story comes from The Sumerian Tablets.
The Hebrew language itself even came from Kemet, Kemetic is the parent language of Hebrew.
The Jewish Cabal was learned from the Astrologers of Babylon the Magi, this was the very basis of Judaism.
There isn’t anything in Judaism/Christianity that is not plagiarized from either Sumeria, Babylon, Kemet, right down to the very language itself.

This to me is irrefutable, thus without Genesis, without Jesus, Christianity is merely plagiarized sun god paganism.

So once again, I really dont care who wrote the gospels when it comes to proving Christianity or Jesus, I dont care who came up with the Piso or Flavian theory, dont care at all what their credentials are or not, makes positively ZERO difference.
The FACT is Christianity is without question pagan sun god worship plagiarized from much older sources.
Now to me, the Piso theory makes sense, actually without the Piso theory what you are left with is nothing as far as who actually did write those Gospels? We know for certain that no such person as Mark, Matthew, Luke, John wrote them, we know for certain they were Roman & or Greek in origin, we know approx. when they were written all 4 between 70-200 CE, we know the first 3 were virtually Identical to each other, that Mark was first and Mat/Luke copied Mark while simply adding miracles as time passed the legend grew, each was written approx. 10-20+ years apart, John being last and completely different, way more anti-Semitic, way more mystical, more miracles, etc.

That is all that is possibly known.

The Piso’s had the motive, the education, the ways & means to accomplish such a hoax, the timeframe fits, other than that is there a “smoking text” so to speak? Who knows, certainly none uncovered yet.
Although a large Library in Herculaneum owned by the Piso’s is being excavated right now, has been for years, never know what they may find in there.

So at least with the Piso hypothesis there is something to go on, there are theoretical authors, motives, of real life human beings.
Some Roman Aristocracy almost had to have some hand in it, that part of the hypothesis just fits too well.
The writing of it certainly fits the Jewish & Slave rebellion Vs the Roman slave owners.

So once again while you continue to spend time desperately trying to refute something that really makes zero difference, like I said from the get go its only a hypothesis that seems to fit.  I find it funny that neither of you ever say a word about the Astrological origins of the Bible.

Maybe I can say this yet again, come close, listen carefully..
I DONT GIVE A FUCK WHETHER OR NOT THE PISO’S WROTE IT OR WHO DID, MAKES ZERO DIFFERENCE!!!

There did that sink in? I know this is just the Christian way of argument, take little things that mean nothing and try to refute them while completely ignoring the solid facts that disprove Christianity completely.
but the Facts of the origin of Christianity/Judaism & the Jesus Myth are widely known, extremely well documented and irrefutable.

So who created the NT fable part of this is merely an after thought, a point of interest, something to ponder as it would be interesting to figure out just who did just out of curiosity.

So even though the Piso connection is shaky indeed, it is still a stronger hypothesis than what Christian mythology dictates.
So what is your proof of whom wrote those 4 gospels? The Bible? LOL

There is so much Archeological evidence that ties the Christian sun god myth with much older paganism from Sumeria, Babylon & Kemet that it is completely undeniable, which is why you aren’t.

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 11:23 AM

Consigliere pic

I know this is just the Christian way of argument, take little things that mean nothing and try to refute them while completely ignoring the solid facts that disprove Christianity completely.
but the Facts of the origin of Christianity/Judaism & the Jesus Myth are widely known, extremely well documented and irrefutable.

LOL!!!  You are truly a piece of work. smile So well documented that you have nothing to offer me about the author or that institute that is behind the current incarnation?  So well documented that I had to go look up the origins of this flight of fancy to determine that you, the weirdos that believe aliens are secretely orchestrating world wide dominion vis a vis mind control, and white supremacists are the ones chatting it up?? 

I know that you maintain that it is not important, but it important Nunya.  It’s important for this reason.  When I first read this thread I thought you were well read and had done your own homework on the issues.  Whether I agreed with you or disagreed with you, you looked like somebody who knew what they were talking about.  You argue effectively, albeit mainly with belittlement and by never conceding anything even when on the ropes, and as much I would like to write you off altogether as a quack, there is some truth contained in some of your postings. 

However, those precious kernels of truth are interspersed with fiction. That makes you dangerous for the ignorant reader. (I’m not using ignorant in the perjorative sense). My concern is that should they look to you, they would get misinformation. As this discussion with you illustrates, and as am sure many on the site have experienced the same with fundamentalists, it’s much easier to combat misinformation before the individual develops an emotional stake in it. 

For that reason, I entered this thread.  I readily admit that I picked what I believed would be the weakest link in your laundry list of comments.  I have no qualms saying that.  If I can expose facts about whacko ideas, and your the guy advocating it, for most, it reflects on you.

With that, I can now let it rest.

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self—well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 12:04 PM

THEOCRAT pic

Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
I in fact have researched religions of all kinds extensively for about 30 years, my conclusions are based on verifiable evidence & Archeological facts and in general is this: ALL Religion is man made for selfish reasons usually from Fear, lack of knowledge, & power to control the masses.
God did NOT make man…..Man made God/s.

I personally think it is unrealistic to expect us to have a counterargument for thirty years worth of research in a week.  But that’s just my opinion.

Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
I’ve had one thing brought to my attention in this debate that I think might be worth sharing.
Theo’s only reference http://www.bible.com/ does not contain any references to source material that helps support his theory and the authors which are Unknown show no credentials that they know what they are talking about.  Just thought I would throw that out there.

1) I don’t use internet bible sources.
2) My references to the Bible were appropriately used to provide answers to allegations made against it.  Would you prefer I use an irrelevant document to back up the claims of the Bible?
3) The Sumerian, Egyptian, Kemetic texts have just as verifiable source documentation as the Bible and the authors of all these religious documents show just as many credentials.  There goes all the evidence for both sides.  I guess this debate is over since there is no evidence for any argument.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 12:16 PM

elwedriddsche pic

Okay, I am a bit upset. For once there is a worthy adversary and he or she has to pick a topic I’m neither particularly interested in nor well read on. Such is life… wink

To toss in my opinion and I’ll know what it is once I make up my mind… I view theology as evolving memes, for the want of a better word. The earliest theologies were almost certainly developed by people who had day-to-day survival very much on their minds and were therefore very keen observers of nature - arguably unsurpassed to this very day. If so, it is unsurprising that the early theologies independently evolved as very similar memes and that the surviving theologies share certain atavisms. Perhaps atavism isn’t the proper word, either - what is left of theologies when references to nature are excised and how does the remainder compare to secular ideologies?

As far as Christianity is concerned, there is no doubt in my mind that this religion co-opted many elements of rival theologies it encountered in order to enhance the sales pitch. With that in mind, is it debatable how much substance there really is to Christianity.

Regarding Jesus, I am indifferent if he was a historical figure, based on another historical figure, or an outright fabrication. I strongly believe, however, that if Christianity is based on an actual historical figure, that person was unremarkable enough to largely or totally avoid comment by his contemporaries. Or perhaps that person did not avoid comment, but isn’t properly attributed.

Either way, I myself am utterly indifferent to the question of whether or not Jesus is a historical figure or not. It would be mildly interesting to research if Christianity is a genetic descendant of which older religions or if there is simply a convergence of features. Then again, I’m sure that somebody else has already done the leg work.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 12:29 PM

Nunyabiz pic

You are truly a piece of work.  So well documented that you have nothing to offer me about the author or that institute that is behind the current incarnation?  So well documented that I had to go look up the origins of this flight of fancy to determine that you, the weirdos that believe aliens are secretely orchestrating world wide dominion vis a vis mind control, and white supremacists are the ones chatting it up??

Umm so are you on drugs? should you be on drugs maybe?
What the fuck do you not understand about this very simple statement.

I DO NOT FUCKING CARE ABOUT THE PISO THEORY.

What is documented very well has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE PISO THEORY, do you understand?
How many times do I have to constantly repeat the same exact thing over and over, damn you are fucking dense.
The information that is irrefutable is the ASTROLOGICAL connection to the Bible, THE ASTROLOGICAL connection to the Bible, THE ASTROFUCKINGLOGICAL connection to the Bible.

In other words forget the Piso theory which Iv begged you to do and concentrate on something that makes a difference, yet you go right back to it like a god damn moth to a flame.

and still you refuse to acknowledge the Astrological connection because you know you cant. I have forgotten more about the Bible than you will ever know.

There are allot of archeological text, artifacts, that prove the Bible to be nothing but much older Sun God paganism.

Once again I dont care at all about the Piso theory or who came up with it, its just an entertaining hypothesis with a small amount evidence to support it,  completely moot point, makes no difference at all on the FACT that the Bible is an Astrological Pagan Drama with Jesus playing the lead role as the SUN.
Makes no difference at all of the fact that virtually all of the OT & NT can be found in much older pagan text.
Christianity is plagiarized Sun God worship, that is well documented.

Oh did I mention, I DONT FUCKING CARE ABOUT THE PISO THEORY.

damn.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 12:46 PM

decrepitoldfool pic

As far as Christianity is concerned, there is no doubt in my mind that this religion co-opted many elements of rival theologies it encountered in order to enhance the sales pitch. With that in mind, is it debatable how much substance there really is to Christianity.

I doubt that early Christians cut-and-pasted features of other religions to make Christianity more palatable.  More likely new converts brought their memes with them and blended them in, resulting in an evolved product.  Prior to meme theory this was called syncretism. 

The process continued for centuries (note the unique flavor of South American Catholicism) and continues today as diverse people convert to and from various religions (an example being the character of Western Buddhism.)

It seems likely to me that Jesus was an actual person - one of many reforming preachers of his day who met a similar fate. Early Christian grafitti and meeting places attest to a well-developed emerging faith that probably did get its start with one specific leader.
He was probably a complex, contradictory man;  brilliant, compassionate, yet egotistical, and charismatic.  Over time the resulting meme acquired new features that ensured its survival and propogation.

And yeah, he was probably doing Mary Magdalene. You’re a hot-property religious leader, chicks everywhere totally dig you… Hmmm, what to do?

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 12:51 PM

Nunyabiz pic

I guess this debate is over since there is no evidence for any argument.

ROTFL, No none at all.

http://www.usbible.com/usbible/

http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm#solarmyth

http://anu-world.com/id9.html

http://www.africawithin.com/studies/egyptian_great_year.htm

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

http://www.jesusmyth.homestead.com/index.html


this is how this dangerous mind plague is spread
http://www.christianitymeme.org/

The Bible both OT/NT is nothing but a fairytale, a tale plagairized from other much older Pagan religions, that is just a simple and irrefutable fact.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 12:52 PM

decrepitoldfool pic

Sorry, I didn’t attribute that quote to Elwed, and Nunya posted while I was writing.  But I believe Nunya’s point fits in with what I said - no surprise that astrological themes and even specific stories shaped the Jesus meme.  It would be a much bigger surprise if that had not happened.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 02:10 PM

elwedriddsche pic

DOF,

I doubt that early Christians cut-and-pasted features of other religions to make Christianity more palatable.  More likely new converts brought their memes with them and blended them in, resulting in an evolved product.

I suppose this is a matter of degree and conscious intent; it’s not like the early Christians existed in a total theological vaccuum - as you said, there were plenty of preachers around. In any case, I could well be all wet as far as my opinions go. To make my bias explicit, I’m not so much interested in exactly what Christians believe in, as opposed to the purpose they put these beliefs to…

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

zilch Austria Posted on 12/18/2004 at 02:45 PM

zilch pic

Okay, I am a bit upset. For once there is a worthy adversary and he or she has to pick a topic I’m neither particularly interested in nor well read on. Such is life…

elwed, I’m with you.  Not only was the topic one unlikely to be resolved, given the nature of the evidence, but now it has devolved to mere mudslinging, and even popcorn doesn’t help.

 Signature 

You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Consigliere United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 03:07 PM

Consigliere pic

In other words forget the Piso theory which Iv begged you to do and concentrate on something that makes a difference, yet you go right back to it like a god damn moth to a flame.

I got what I needed from it so I won’t return, but I did want to comment just briefly to point out that your choice for a curse is an interesting one for a self-proclaimed atheist.  tongue wink

That aside, few questions before we venture forward:

1) Jesus’s ministry lasted three years according to the Gospels that are mythology loaded with symbolism.  How does this correlate with your Heru proposition as I find no mention of it in your presentation thus far.  Using your zodiac perspective it would make much more sense if His ministry was 1 year. Did someone goof or is this me being “dense?“

2) Who authored the OT?  I’m not sure if you are indicating that this was another conspiracy or piecemeal plagiarism.
 
3) If we have another conspiracy, which I must say that I sure hope we do, what were the motives for such an act?

4) Where might we find, if we can, the unadulterated version of history for the Israeli people? 

Elwed:

Sorry to disappoint.

Regards,

 Signature 

To die one’s self is a thing that must be easy, & light of consequence; but to lose a part of one’s self—well, we know how deep that pang goes, we who have suffered that disaster, received that wound which cannot heal.
Mark Twain- Letter to Will Bowen, 11/4/1888

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/18/2004 at 08:14 PM

Nunyabiz pic

1) Jesus’s ministry lasted three years according to the Gospels that are mythology loaded with symbolism.  How does this correlate with your Heru proposition as I find no mention of it in your presentation thus far.  Using your zodiac perspective it would make much more sense if His ministry was 1 year. Did someone goof or is this me being “dense?â€?

You being dense, first off you are talking about a MYTH, an allegory in a Book so full of contradictions that in order to believe any of it you must have Multiple Personality Disorder, you can literally make the Bible say anything you want.
Though by most accounts the alleged ministry of your fictitious Sun god was indeed 1 year.
http://www.bibletime.com/bt/jesus/ministry/

Once again though, makes zero difference as to the Heru proposition, the MYTHICAL Jesus was modeled after Heru, took on many of Heru’s attributes, 1 year 10 years or 100 years is completely moot.
Also since this MYTH is circular, it renews itself, is reborn, rises again, each year then the time is totally meaningless.

2) Who authored the OT?  I’m not sure if you are indicating that this was another conspiracy or piecemeal plagiarism.

You mean “originally”? or whom plagiarized it into the OT? there is no one answer to any of that.
We know the Sumerians authored the original genesis, Babylonians authored the Original Noah’s Flood, Kemets authored Psalms, Proverbs, most of the Sun Worshipping Gods, the idea of the “Trinity God” etc.
As far as whom plagiarized it dunno dont care.
Educated guess “Maccabees”
The Jews got their language along with the vast majority of their belief in form of their Cabal from the Magi in Babylon in approx. 600BCE.

3) If we have another conspiracy, which I must say that I sure hope we do, what were the motives for such an act?

Since you apparently are virtually incapable of understanding much of anything Im sure it will escape you completely.
What is the motive to start ANY Religion?
Power over the ignorance of the masses.

4) Where might we find, if we can, the unadulterated version of history for the Israeli people?

Do you know what the word “Israel” translates to from the kemetic?
“Is”=Isis/ also known as Aset which means “Throne”
“Ra”=chief god of Kemet/Egypt, Sun God,
“El”=Chief god of the region.
The region that was known as the Throne of Ra and El, Israel

http://www.giwersworld.org/history.phtml

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0640ChristianFraud.html#top

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0345LostTemple.html#First temple of Israel

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0375Genesis.html

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0237SunGod.html

Frumpa Australia Posted on 12/18/2004 at 08:49 PM

Frumpa pic

Consigliere,you find it interesting that a self proclaimed athiest would say god-damn? Well ive considered this topic before and the answer is really all around us.Your president,the media,books,magazines,movies and T.V,everywhere we look,your insidious religion has tainted everything - no wonder athiests arent even free from its evil sway. downer

 Signature 

“The Sun - a weird punishment disc in the sky” - Patton Oswalt.

Page 9 of 11 pages « First  <  7 8 9 10 11 >

Name:

Email:

Location:

URL:

Smileys


Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Submit the word you see below:


<< Back to main