Okay, I lost my first post and am losing my patience.  Please excuse any terseness.

zilch:

I don’t believe, either, that Jesus was made up by the Romans

Glad to see I’m not alone.

I don’t really know if there was an historical Jesus,...but I personally don’t give a fig one way or another.

I must say that surprises me.  Messianic figures always interest me, whether it be Jesus or David Koresh. 

Nunya:

That is entirely possible as it is hard for me sometimes to follow completely illogical statements.

Just because you have people with popcorn doesn’t mean that you have to entertain them, although I’m sure they enjoy it.  I’ll stick with the self-depracation, but reserve the right to call you a moron any time I think you’ve gotten the better of me.  I pause to point out that it is not my logic that you take issue with on this subject, but the information that I present.

I say that because as to this:

As for being manufactured by the Romans, that is just a hypothesis, although really its about the only hypothesis that I can think of that makes any sense

we agree!!!!  No Roman conspiracy=Jesus lived. That’ my only point. I leave the implications of what that means to you. I’m not here to recruit you. I’ve already filled my quota for the year.

First off the Gnostic gospels have all been dated to no earlier than 170-400CE, some 100-200 years after the alleged canonized Gospels could have been written, so the Gnostic Gospels got the idea of some Jesus character from the canonized version.

I don’t know how to tactfully say this other than to just say it.  You are wrong. Your own source materials will tell you this.  From the PBS link that you posted:

Quispel and his collaborators, who first published the Gospel of Thomas, suggested the date of c. A.D. 140 for the original. Some reasoned that since these gospels were heretical, they must have been written later than the gospels of the New Testament, which are dated c. 60-ll0. But recently Professor Helmut Koester of Harvard University has suggested that the collection of sayings in the Gospel of Thomas, although compiled c. 140, may include some traditions even older than the gospels of the New Testament, “possibly as early as the second half of the first century” (50-100)—as early as, or earlier, than Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.

This runs directly counter to that quote.  Read your quote, then read the source material YOU linked to.

My position mirrors and is based in part on Koester’s.  This discussion would be much more fruitfull if you can address any issues you have with how Koester arrives at that dating, rather than keep repeating the same thing.  Repititon is boring.

On a minor point, the “canonized version” could only exist after they were canonized.  Canonization didn’t occur until long after the Gospel of Thomas was written.  I read that to be “the versions that were eventually canonized.“

With regards to the Gospel of Thomas, you’re right with respect to the fact that it does say freaky stuff.  The Gnostics were a bit freaky.  I’m not here to defend them. The dating of that Gospel is the only relevant issue here, because it kills the Roman conspiracy theory. I care not what it says.

Quick note—I was aware of the who, when where regarding the discovery of the text, but wasn’t familiar with the portion about the Muslim, who discovered the text, eating his enemy’s heart out. 

IF you are correct, and these Gnostic Gospels such as ‘The Secret Gospel according to Thomas� predates any known Christian gospel, then would that not make them more accurate?

Predate means that it would predate.  No more, no less.

As regards your rant about Jesus as God, my only comment is that you remind me of my dear fundamentalist friends who will go on irrelevant and unending tirades when beliefs that they hold near and dear are questioned.  Let me assuage you, massage you or whatever needs to be done so that I don’t have to read through another rant. I don’t care what you believe about the deity of Jesus Christ.  My beef, in this thread, is with this conspiracy theory that Jesus was made up. (Well, maybe later we’ll examine the Sun God stuff) Let’s stick to that.

Now lets even take Josephus “at face value� pretend you are correct,...

If we take Josephus at face value, then a man named Jesus lived.  Spin it left, spin it right, spin wildly in a circle, but that is where one arrives if Josephus is taken at face value. 

Yes always best to deny all possible facts when they do not agree with your fantasy,...

LOL!!  Although struggling to find the relevancy here, I imagine if I extrapolate this, it explains my belief that Jessica Simpson and her secret twin will one day show up at my house in Catholic school girl outfits.

Regards,

we agree!!!!  No Roman conspiracy=Jesus lived. That’ my only point. I leave the implications of what that means to you. I’m not here to recruit you. I’ve already filled my quota for the year.

Ummm no.
No Roman conspiracy simply means someone else made it up, at least with the Piso angle there is something to go on.
With what you I think believe then you honestly have no idea who wrote any of the Gospels.

This runs directly counter to that quote.  Read your quote, then read the source material YOU linked to

No it doesn’t, the ridiculous figure of as early as 50-100 goes way past even a guess, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
Even dating it as early as 140CE is a stretch, and is going ONLY by a single statement made in 180CE. In other words he “wants” it to be that early, so he is dreaming up anything he can.
May as well say it was written 10,000BCE.

If we take Josephus at face value, then a man named Jesus lived.  Spin it left, spin it right, spin wildly in a circle, but that is where one arrives if Josephus is taken at face value.

Exactly how is that may I ask?
Whether Josephus mentioned some alleged Jesus character 60+ years after the alleged timeframe of his life makes zero difference and gives zero proof of his existence, the quote is meaningless in that respect. You can believe some fictitious character named Jesus lived all you like. Im 100% certain he in fact did not, difference is I have mountains of proof to show he did not, you on the other hand have zero proof to show he did.

Please explain how Jesus is a virtual carbon copy of Heru/Horus.

Horus ( Egyptain God 3,000 b.c.). What do Horus and Jesus have in common?
~ Horus was baptized with water by Anup = Jesus baptized with water by John
~ Anup the Baptizer = John the Baptist
~ Aan the divine scribe = John the divine scribe
~ Horus born in Annu, the place of the bread = Jesus born in Bethlehem,
the house of bread
~ Horus the Good Shepherd = Jesus the Good Shepherd
~ The Seven on board the boat with Horus = The seven fishers on board the boat with Jesus
~ Horus the Lamb = Jesus the Lamb
~ Horus the Krst = Jesus the Christ
~ the trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, and Ra the Holy Spirit = the trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
~ Horus the sower and Set the destroyer in the harvestfield = Jesus the sower of the good seed and Satan the sower of tares
~ The Star, as the announcer of the child Horus = The Star indicating the birth of Jesus
~They are both are identified with the cross; both men of thirty years when baptized; both manifesting the Son of God; both children of Virgins and returned as the Son of the Father; both bringers of peace and eternal life; and both having twelve disciples or followers.
If you research Jesus’ prototypes, what you’ll find is that they were not to be taken literally as individuals. They were all symbolic stories about the sun’s cycyles and its affect on creation. It’s no coinicidence that the birth of Jesus picked to be on December 25th; and his resurrection on March 25th. All of the above mentioned were said to be born December 25th and resurrected March 25th. What’s the significance of December 25th and March 25th? Well during the fall season the night out last day light. On December 25th the sun is said to be born, because that’s when daylight begins to lenghten. Prior to December 25th daylight continues to shorten. March 25th is said to be the second birth because that’s when day(light) over take night(darkness). Then everything that died during the fall, is resurrected. Jesus being called a lamb is zodiac symbolism. March 25th, which was the original day that the resurrection was celebrated on, is associated with the zodiac symbol of Aries. What’s the symbol of aries? A ram. What’s a ram? A full grown lamb. Although the date of easter is no longer fixed to the first day of Aries, the symbolism remains. Are you beginning to see the picture? Christianity is simply a disguised pagan religion, that practices sun worship, like the other so-called monotheistic religions. When do they worship? SUNday. In my research for the truth, I’ve found no credible evidence, outside of religious text, whatsoever for the existence of Jesus. No archeological evidence, no written evidence, nothing. As a matter of fact, Nazareth didn’t exist during the time that Jesus was supposedly walking the earth. The name doesn’t appear in any of the detailed Roman records, nor in any books, writings or documents of any kind relating to the period covered by the gospels.

Jesus begins his one year ministry by visiting John who baptizes with water. The Sun begins its yearly journey by visiting Aquarius, the water bearer. Jesus leaves John, who is put in prison, and visits Simon and Andrew, two fishermen. The Sun leaves Aquarius, who goes below the horizon, and visits Pisces, the two fish. The remarkable parallels continue.
It’s customary for Christians to get up early on Easter morning to watch the Sun rise, then go to church and announce, “He has risen, He has risen indeed!â€?
After the Sun crosses the Milky Way it moves into the constellation Gemini—the twins Castor and Pollux. The two bright stars in Gemini are named Castor and Pollux. In the Jesus story, after crossing the lake (the Milky Way), Jesus heals two demon possessed men (I bet their names were Castor and Pollux) (Matthew 8:28-34) Castor and Pollux are also explicitly mentioned in Acts 28:11 — “After three months we put out to sea in a ship that had wintered in the island. It was an Alexandrian ship with the figurehead of the twin gods Castor and Pollux.“

Around this point in the Jesus story an interesting thing happens — John the Baptist reappears and is beheaded. According to the Bible, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead,� (Mark 6:14), or “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead!� (Matthew 14:2). Recall at the beginning of the allegory how Aquarius moved below the western horizon at sunset as the year went from January to February and the Sun traveled from Aquarius to Pisces. Each Zodiac constellation in turn goes below the horizon at sunset as each month passes. After six months the constellation of Aquarius begins to rise on the eastern horizon at sunset, and it appears that the head of Aquarius is cut off by the horizon. This is John the Baptist rising from the dead, the dead being those who are below the earth. This is the beheading of John the Baptist by King Herod, a personification of darkness, which reigns supreme at night (See Matthew Chapter 2—The Birth of Jesus for more on King Herod).

After the harvest the Sun moves from Virgo into Libra, the Scales. (September). These are the “Scales of Justice.“ The harvest has been gathered, it is now time to sell the harvest. Scales are used in buying and selling the harvest. At the end of harvest time, when there is nothing left to sell, the money changers pack up and leave. The Bible says, “Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers.â€? (Mark 11:12-19; Matthew 21:12) Jesus, the Sun, representing the passage of time, moves out of Libra, the Scales of Justice, and the money changers pack up and leave, because the season has passed and they are finished selling the harvest.

As we enter the season of Autumn the leaves fall from the trees and the trees appear to wither. It is at this point in the story that Jesus is said to curse the fig tree and make it wither, a story which makes no sense if Jesus were a real person, but it makes perfect sense when understood as an allegory. It is simply Autumn, and Jesus, the Sun, who makes the seasons pass, causes the leaves to fall from the trees (Mark 11:20-25; Matthew 21:18-22)

 

In Autumn the Sun travels through Libra, Scorpio, and Sagittarius. 

The Jesus story goes tragically downhill from there, just like in the season of Autumn the year tragically winds down and comes to an end as the days become short and cold. In October the Sun enters Scorpio, the Scorpion, which figuratively stings the Sun to make it slowly die. The days begin to get shorter and colder as the Sun rises lower and lower each day.

In the Jesus story Jesus is betrayed by Judas, one of the twelve zodiac months of the year. Judas represents Scorpio, the month of October. Judas betrays Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, representing the 30 days of the month. The month being one cycle of the phases of the moon. The moon, a piece of silver in the sky.

Jesus is handed over to Herod — a personification of Night. Herod, or the darkness of Night, is taking over Jesus, the Sun, as the days get shorter and shorter in Autumn and darkness begins to reign. (See Matthew Chapter 2—The Birth of Jesus for more on King Herod).

Jesus is handed over to Pontius Pilate. [Click here to see the verse in Greek]. “Pontius”, ποντιος {pon’-tee-os} (Strong’s Greek #4194), is literally “of the sea”, a reference to the sea of stars above. (It’s also of Latin origin, betraying it’s late addition to the text.) “Pilate”, πειλατος {pil-at’-os} (Strong’s Greek #4091), is literally “armed with a spear”, a reference to Sagittarius, the archer, the man armed with a spear. Pontius Pilate is a personification of Sagittarius, the last constellation the Sun passes through during the last month of the year, Nov. 22 - Dec. 21. Pilate is the last person Jesus sees in the story — Sagittarius is the last zodiac month of the year. Sagittarius is a man on a horse with a bow and arrow. He is the man armed with a spear. It is a good time of the year to go hunting. The animals are full grown. But the days get shorter and shorter and colder and colder as the year comes to a close. Things look dark and gloomy. What will happen to our savior, the Sun, who makes the harvest grow? Will he disappear forever?

Jesus is crucified and placed in a cave. It is the end of the story. A sad ending. But have faith. Jesus, the Sun, will arise again — a new year will begin. Three days after Jesus is placed in the cave he will arise again. This is the prophecy.

On Christmas day, December 25, we celebrate the birth of Jesus. December 22 was the Winter Solstice, the shortest day of the year, when the Sun was at its lowest. Three days later, on December 25, the sun rises 1/10 of it’s width farther north — just barely detectable by carefully observing the shadows cast at sunrise. Our savior, the Sun, has been reborn, to begin the cycle of the year and the cycle of life again.

Jesus, who never existed, whose story existed prior to his alleged time, is a personification of the Sun, which dies in Winter and is resurrected in Spring, saving us from the evil of cold and darkness. The story is an allegory misinterpreted as history.

Explain how the Bible follows the Zodiac perfectly, actually to read the Bible in this fashion is the only way the Bible makes a lick of sense.

Honestly since you have some burr up your ass about the possibility of some Roman aristocrat making the story up then forget about it, makes ZERO difference, fact is somebody made it up, i really dont care who as it makes no difference as to the possibility of Jesus being real, the evidence is overwhelming that he is NOT, so is the “lack” of evidence that he is.

Jesus, who never existed, whose story existed prior to his alleged time, is a personification of the Sun, which dies in Winter and is resurrected in Spring, saving us from the evil of cold and darkness. The story is an allegory misinterpreted as history.

I take it in light of your endorsement of this quote that you are abandoning the conspiracy theory and you are now advocating a more benevolent version of how Jesus was made up since once has him created in 70 A.D. and the other “existed prior to his time?“

Regards,

(Remember in the old days light bulbs didn’t exist — the only light was the Sun)
John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world.“ (The “light of the world” is the Sun.)
John 9:5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world. (The “light of the world” is the Sun.)
Matthew 4:16 The people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.“ (The light is the Sun)
Matthew 17:2 His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
John 1:3-8 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (Without the Sun nothing would grow and we’d all be dead.) In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (The light is the Sun.) The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it (the Sun removes the darkness). There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He [John] came as a witness to testify concerning that light (the Sun), so that through him all men might believe. He [John] himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light (the Sun) that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
John 3:19-20 This is the verdict: Light (the Sun) has come into the world, but men loved darkness (night time) instead of light (the Sun) because their deeds were evil (criminals do their crimes at night). Everyone who does evil hates the light (the Sun), and will not come into the light (the Sun) for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 12:35-36 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light (the light is the Sun) just a little while longer (the Sun will set soon). Walk while you have the light (the light is the Sun), before darkness (night time) overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark (at night) does not know where he is going. Put your trust in the light (the light is the Sun)while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.“ When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them (i.e. the sun set, because Jesus is the Sun).
John 12:46 I have come into the world as a light (the Sun), so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
Ephesians 5:14 Christ (the Sun) will shine on you.
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven (the celestial sphere above); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ (the Sun). (i.e. we should look upwards to the celestial sphere above to find our story.)
Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. (i.e. the story is about the passage of the year.)

(By the way the Old Testament also talks about God as being the Sun)
Psalms 84:11 “the Lord God is a sun…“
Deuteronomy 4:24 “For the LORD your God is a consuming fire,“ (the Sun is a consuming fire.)
Malachi 4:2 “the Sun of Righteousness…“

Was that a yes?

take it in light of your endorsement of this quote that you are abandoning the conspiracy theory and you are now advocating a more benevolent version of how Jesus was made up since once has him created in 70 A.D. and the other “existed prior to his time?�

The stories referred to are these. and they all existed 100s to 1000s of year prior to the existence of the Christian Sun god.
Here a summary of the events that occured in the “Jesus” story. He was born to a virgin through the intervention of a holy spirit. This fulfilled an ancient prophecy. When he was born the ruling tyrant wanted to kill him. His parents had to flee to safety. All male children under the age of two were slain by the ruler as he sought to kill the child. Angels and shepards were at his birth and he was given gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. He was worshipped as the saviour of men and led a moral and humble life. He performed miracles which included healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, casting out devils and raising the dead. He was put to death on the cross between two thieves. He descended to hell and rose from the dead to ascend back to heaven.

Guess what? That is how the eastern saviour God known as Virishna was described 1,200 years before “Jesus” is claimed to have been born. If you want a saviour God who died so our sins could be forgiven, take your pick from the ancient world because there are a stream of them.

Here are just some of the “Son/Sun of God” heroes who play the lead role in stories which mirror those attributed to “Jesus” and almost all were worshipped long before “Jesus” was even heard of:

Krishna of Hindostan;  Buddha Sakia of India; Salivahana of Bermuda;  Ausar(Osiris) and Heru(Horus) son of the virgin Isis of Kemet(Egypt); Odin of Scandinavia;  Crite of Chaldea;  Zoroaster of Persia;  Baal and Taut of Phoenicia; Indra of Tibet;  Bali of Afghanistan;  Jao of Nepal;  Wittoba of Bilingonese;  Tammuz of Syria and Babylon;  Attis of Phyrgia;  Xamolxis of Thrace;  Zoar of the Bonzes;  Adad of Assyria; Beddru of Japan;  Bremrillahm of the Druid; Cadmus of Greece;  Gentaut and Quezalcoatl of Mexico;  Fohi and Tien of China;  Adonis, son of virgin lo, of Greece.

Every one of these Sun Gods were born on Dec 25th and reborn on or died and rose again on March 25th.

That is the “prior story” that existed prior to his alleged time.

Im not abandoning the only hypothesis that makes any sense about whom wrote the gospels, NO.

Im merely telling you to forget about it as I could basically present a video tape of it if such a thing existed back then and you would deny it, so it is pointless for you to keep harping on it, especially since it really makes no difference as to wether Jesus actually existed.

Meanwhile you continually ignore the Astrological evidence of the Bible and that Jesus is clearly an allegory for the Sun.
This trumps everything, who wrote the gospels really dont mean squat, there is certainly no real way to prove who did.
The Piso or Flavian or at least some Roman Aristocrat having a hand in it makes perfect sense, fits what little is known quite well, so to me that is the best hypothesis.

I would gladly accept any other evidence if any in fact existed.

One thing we do know for certain, there is no Mark, Matthew, Luke, or John, whomever wrote them was either Roman or Greek, other than that nothing else is certain.

I’m more than willing to discuss your implication that Jesus’s story is a carbon copy of “other Sun Gods.“  Although I’ve addressed this in other discussions, I will need to go back and dig all that stuff up.  So please give me until Sunday to respond. I believe that your first post regarding the Sun God issue in this thread, which is up a ways, is the one I’ll address and move down from there should there be any additional material.

Until then…......

Here comes the sun, here comes the sun,
And I say it’s all right
Little darling, it’s been a long cold lonely winter
Little darling, it feels like years since it’s been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
And I say it’s all right

Little darling, the smiles returning to the faces
Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been here
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun
And I say it’s all right

Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…
Sun, sun, sun, here it comes…

Little darling, I feel that ice is slowly melting
Little darling, it seems like years since it’s been clear
Here comes the sun, here comes the sun,
And I say it’s all right
It’s all right

Nothing like the Beatles to make me smile.

Im merely telling you to forget about it as I could basically present a video tape of it if such a thing existed back then and you would deny it, so it is pointless for you to keep harping on it, especially since it really makes no difference as to wether Jesus actually existed.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!  Makes no differnece????  Hmmmm….I must have been mistaken then, again not surprising.  See, it just makes sense to me that if I’m going to claim Jesus is made up, that I would be able to support that with a plausible theory as to who made him up and why.  Yet, as we’ve seen the Roman conspiracy theory is dead if the Gospel of Thomas predates 70 A.D.  In fact, the theory is dead if any of Gospel predates 70 A.D.  And as you’ve admitted yourself—-THERE IS NO OTHER PLAUSIBLE THEORY THAT MAKES ANY SENSE.

I’ve presented the position that not only myself but a number of scholars, scholars whose articles are not hosted on sites side by side with incest articles and bomb making instructions, find that the Gospel of Thomas, because of the traditions it discusses can be dated to around 50-60 A.D.  You have no response as far as I can tell other than to jump and down saying—-That ain’t right, cuz I don’t like it.  I can understand if you respectfully disagree, I would just like to know what the problem with Koester’s position is?

However, as you wish, we shall move onto the Sun God.

Regards,

Take your time, be interesting to see how this evidence can possibly be refuted as it is pretty substantial and I personally see no way to refute it.

There are volumes of evidence to show quite clearly that the entire Biblical story both OT/NT are straight from much older pagan religions, largely Kemetic.

Have a good weekend and rest up.

Bring your wheelbarrow though if you think you can refute it to haul in all that poop.

after the Fact of Jesus being an allegory for the Sun and the Bible being just an Astrological story that mirrors much older Kemetic beliefs, everything else is moot.
God IE Jesus IE Yahweh does not exist unless you believe in Ra & Heru.

To prove Jesus doesn’t exist which this does, completely negates anything else.
after that all you are doing is trying to prove who made up the fable.

and there are positively no gospels of anykind that predate 70CE by any stretch.
Actually 70CE is really being very VERY kind and lenient, most scholars date the Gospels no earlier than 170CE and none were ever mentioned by any source prior to 180CE.

As for no other theory that makes any sense that certainly includes the Christian hogwash which is sheer lunacy and makes the least sense of any of them, Id sooner believe Aliens wrote it.

As for no other theory that makes any sense that certainly includes the Christian hogwash which is sheer lunacy and makes the least sense of any of them, Id sooner believe Aliens wrote it.

I nearly asked you if aliens wrote it!!!    I thought it would be too irreverant, but I guess not.

Regards,

I’m pretty much massively indifferent to this particular debate, and I don’t want to intrude, but I did accidentally run across a related debate that’s taking place, as we type, at the internet infidels forums.

Linkie here, if you guys are interested.  If not, please ignore.

Josephus and the TF.

Mmmmmmmm, popcorn.

you said it, elwed…

consi: No Roman conspiracy=Jesus lived. That’s my only point.

uh, consi, need I point out the elementary error in logic here?  Are you saying that if the Romans didn’t invent Jesus, that proves that Jesus lived?  I’ve heard all kinds of strange proofs, but this takes the cake…

zilch:

Would agree, that the elimination of A does not make B true, if there are multiple options.  However here, nunya said

As for being manufactured by the Romans,...its about the only hypothesis that I can think of that makes any sense.

and I agreed that there weren’t any other options.  The only other option on the table is my belief that Jesus lived. So, with that as our table setting for this discussion we have a universe of two. Jesus lived or the Romans made him up, unless you have some alternative that make sense that you would like to contribute?

God Bless,

Anything would make more sense than Jesus living ,you petty argumentative fuck! - Give it a rest already!Are you relly that stubborn? I’m sure Nunyabiz is sick of repeating what he’s said and let me tell ya;He makes sense,You dont.Have a read of the sites he recommended,then come back and waffle you wanker! - Jebus!,come back THEOCRAT,at least you had interesting rubbish to say…

consi said:  and I agreed that there weren’t any other options.

Do I have to agree that there are no other options?  Seems like there might be a few- for instance, that the Invisible Pink Unicorn created Jesus to test our faith.  Makes just as much sense as the Bible.

(Consi)
God Bless,

No need to get rude

zilch:

A petty point—whether the Bible makes sense and whether Jesus lived are separate issues.  I don’t maintain that the Bible is inerrant.  I do maintain that Jesus lived.  In my opinion, the former is indefensible, the latter is true.

Regards,

consi:

Perhaps a petty point for you, but not for the majority of Christians we get here. But I agree- Bible inerrancy and Jesus’ historicity are separate issues.

In my opinion, the former is ludicrous, and the latter unlikely to be satisfactorily demonstrable one way or the other, given the tendentiousness of the sources and their late date.

Frumpa, calm down a bit, eh? Consi may be very argumentive, but so far has managed to stay pretty civil about the discussion.

I agreed that there weren’t any other options.  The only other option on the table is my belief that Jesus lived.

Not sure how you come up with that idea, other than brainwashing.

As I said which is the only thing I meant by it is the Roman Piso or Flavian hypothesis makes the most sense as it fits what little evidence there is quite well.
Its the only one that makes sense means the rest of the options make no sense whatsoever and Jesus actually being a real character is almost a virtual impossibility given the evidence & in some cases the lack of evidence.
Therefore to me at least using reason & logic and available evidence Jesus certainly did not exist, and the most likely writers of the NT were most likely Roman Aristocracy, the Piso & Flavian connection fits perfectly because of their known history plus the timeframe of their lives fit the timeframes that we know these text were written.
They are the most likely suspects by far.

I think of it this way.

To ME I have more than enough proof that shows me that no such real entity as Jesus of Nazareth ever existed.
If I can prove to MY satisfaction that Jesus did not exist (which I have) and I can also prove to MY satisfaction (which I have) that the entire OT comes directly from other much older pagan religions such as Kemetic, for instance Genesis without a doubt comes directly from the Sumerian Tablets.

So without Genesis & without Jesus, Christianity is what?  Complete and utter bullshit.

Thus like iv said, it really dont matter to me who wrote the Gospels as the only thing that will explain is just who it was that created the Fairytale of the NT.
That would be very interesting to know, but it isn’t going to make any difference in the outcome.

Genesis came from the Sumerian Tablets & Jesus is without question an allegory for the SUN as the main character in an Astrological Pagan Drama I.E The bible.
To me that case is closed, im merely trying to find out or give possibilities & reasonable hypotheses as to whom could have pulled this hoax off is all.
The Piso’s fit that mold. You disagree, that is fine, but as you disagree you ignore the evidence showing the truth behind the Bible & the Jesus character, then offer up in return what amounts basically to “the Bible says” line of reasoning.

One other point of interest in this Roman culture was the fine art of “Rhetoric” & Show Oratory.

This was immensely popular at that time, these Orators were like today’s Music idols, pop stars they had fans that followed them and were highly regarded.
They were called “sophists” which is where we get the word Sophisticated.
Many of the Roman Aristocracy were taught this “skill” in school at an early age.
They developed their skills of Rhetoric by reading extensively, the most requested oratories would usually be historical speeches which of course usually meant by some General or Caesar etc. about some War, the reasons for many if not most wars have always been religious conflict, thus various religions were also heavily studied.

Arius Piso inherited title to all of the books in the Ptolemic Library in Alexandria, the total of books in the Ptolemic Library was over half a million. Alexandria was the religious capitol of the entire known world at that time largely because of this library and the meetings held there.  Arius also had all of the books in Judea and he started gathering up books in Rome so that he could re-write history. Once he had obtained all the books he could, either by buying them or confiscating them, he burned all but certain books. This of course proves nothing, but simply adds slightly to the ways & means and the Psyche that was prevalent then.
Just another very small piece of a giant puzzle.