Theocracy: A Beginning

Posted by THEOCRAT on Monday, December 06, 2004 at 06:48 PM. Read 6248 times. Tags: ,
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Some personal info about me before we begin.  I am a born again Christian that believes the Bible is the inspired word of God.  This entire article is written from such a perspective that the Bible is entirely true.  It’s only been about six months since I’ve given up on human governance.  Before then I was following the relgious right like a good little boy.  I began to be disconcerted with politics when I joined the Protest Warrior bulletin board.  Reading the threads on that board the political discussions were food fights.  No organization and both sides had several points they weren’t addressing and it would always dissolve into name calling.  I saw several good leftist arguments that I had never heard before and no one was addressing.  All through high school I read World Net Daily almost religiously.  I debated anyone who took up the issue and always won because in high school even the leftists aren’t very well informed.

College came and I was still vehemently against the left.  I met people I never dreamed could exist.  Leftist Christians.  Who knew?  One day while defending the merits of George Bush I began to notice that my friend’s voice and my voice were getting louder and louder.  He eventually gave up the argument and started to walk out of the room.  I followed him into the hall continuing to shout praises to Bush.  When I finally calmed down I reflected on my behavior toward my brother in Christ.  Needless to say I felt really guilty.  Brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to build each other up not tear each other down and especially not on something as meaningless as politics.

I eventually got around to asking myself where did Christ stand on the political compass and how should that affect me?  I began to study government structures in the Bible and how Christ and other disciples interacted with their authorities.  I started with observing Jesus interaction with the Pharisees and looking at the one political question he was asked.

Matthew 22:15-21
(15)  Then the Pharisees went away and planned to trap Jesus into saying the wrong thing.  (16)  They sent their disciples to him along with Herod’s followers. They said to him, “Teacher, we know that you tell the truth and that you teach the truth about the way of God. You don’t favor individuals because of who they are.  (17)  So tell us what you think. Is it right to pay taxes to the emperor or not?“  (18)  Jesus recognized their evil plan, so he asked, “Why do you test me, you hypocrites?  (19)  Show me a coin used to pay taxes.“ They brought him a coin.  (20)  He said to them, “Whose face and name is this?“  (21)  They replied, “The emperor’s.“ Then he said to them, “Very well, give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, and give God what belongs to God.“

Christ is giving an answer that recognizes God as the ultimate authority.  If he said simply to pay taxes the Pharisees would have charged him with not giving to God what is God’s.  If he had said do not pay taxes then the Pharisees would have charged him with disobeying the authority.  The Pharisees were expecting a yes or no answer.  Christ side stepped their intentions by telling them both are important.  The fact that this is the only situation he was confronted with a political question (to our knowledge) also is indicative that his concern was with people more than it was with the authorities.

Another passage I studied in search for Biblical ideals for government would be the Acts churches.

Acts 2:42-47
(42)  The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer.  (43)  A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles.  (44)  All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other.  (45)  From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.  (46)  The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other’s homes and shared their food.  (47)  At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group.

Acts 4:23-37
(23)  When Peter and John were released, they went to the other apostles and told them everything the chief priests and leaders had said.  (24)  When the apostles heard this, they were united and loudly prayed to God, “Master, you made the sky, the land, the sea, and everything in them.  (25)  You said through the Holy Spirit, who spoke through your servant David (our ancestor), ‘Why do the nations act arrogantly? Why do their people devise useless plots?  (26)  Kings take their stand. Rulers make plans together against the Lord and against his Messiah.‘  (27)  “In this city Herod and Pontius Pilate made plans together with non-Jewish people and the people of Israel. They made their plans against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.  (28)  Through your will and power, they did everything that you had already decided should be done.  (29)  “Lord, pay attention to their threats now, and allow us to speak your word boldly.  (30)  Show your power by healing, performing miracles, and doing amazing things through the power and the name of your holy servant Jesus.“  (31)  When the apostles had finished praying, their meeting place shook. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God boldly.  (32)  The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.  (33)  With great power the apostles continued to testify that the Lord Jesus had come back to life. God’s abundant good will was with all of them.  (34)  None of them needed anything. From time to time, people sold land or houses and brought the money (35)  to the apostles. Then the money was distributed to anyone who needed it.  (36)  Joseph, a descendant of Levi, had been born on the island of Cyprus. The apostles called him Barnabas, which means “a person who encourages.“  (37)  He had some land. He sold it and turned the money over to the apostles.

Acts 6:1-7
(1)  At that time, as the number of disciples grew, Greek-speaking Jews complained about the Hebrew-speaking Jews. The Greek-speaking Jews claimed that the widows among them were neglected every day when food and other assistance was distributed.  (2)  The twelve apostles called all the disciples together and told them, “It’s not right for us to give up God’s word in order to distribute food.  (3)  So, brothers and sisters, choose seven men whom the people know are spiritually wise. We will put them in charge of this problem.  (4)  However, we will devote ourselves to praying and to serving in ways that are related to the word.“  (5)  The suggestion pleased the whole group. So they chose Stephen, who was a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and they chose Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, who had converted to Judaism in the city of Antioch.  (6)  The disciples had these men stand in front of the apostles, who prayed and placed their hands on these seven men.  (7)  The word of God continued to spread, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem grew very large. A large number of priests accepted the faith.

These societies were basically theocratic societies.  They devoted their time to sudying and growing in God.  No concern was given to the activities of the king or the government.  They had the good will of the people which likely means they were in no way shape or form coming across as overbearing or forcing their religion or forcing their politics, etc.  It seems to me this happens by being respectful of people’s opinions, talking about religion in casual conversation when it comes up and not trying to bring it up to ‘save’ them, and most importantly practicing what is preached.

Theocracy was the original government of Israel until the people decided a human leader, they could see, would be better than a flawless god.

Exodus 18:13-26
(13)  The next day Moses was settling disputes among the people, and he was kept busy from morning till night.  (14)  When Jethro saw everything that Moses had to do, he asked, “What is all this that you are doing for the people? Why are you doing this all alone, with people standing here from morning till night to consult you?“  (15)  Moses answered, “I must do this because the people come to me to learn God’s will.  (16)  When two people have a dispute, they come to me, and I decide which one of them is right, and I tell them God’s commands and laws.“  (17)  Then Jethro said, “You are not doing this right.  (18)  You will wear yourself out and these people as well. This is too much for you to do alone.  (19)  Now let me give you some good advice, and God will be with you. It is right for you to represent the people before God and bring their disputes to him.  (20)  You should teach them God’s commands and explain to them how they should live and what they should do.  (21)  But in addition, you should choose some capable men and appoint them as leaders of the people: leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. They must be God-fearing men who can be trusted and who cannot be bribed.  (22)  Let them serve as judges for the people on a permanent basis. They can bring all the difficult cases to you, but they themselves can decide all the smaller disputes. That will make it easier for you, as they share your burden.  (23)  If you do this, as God commands, you will not wear yourself out, and all these people can go home with their disputes settled.“  (24)  Moses took Jethro’s advice (25)  and chose capable men from among all the Israelites. He appointed them as leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens.  (26)  They served as judges for the people on a permanent basis, bringing the difficult cases to Moses but deciding the smaller disputes themselves.

1 Samuel 8
(1)  When Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel.  (2)  The name of his firstborn son was Joel; the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba.  (3)  The sons didn’t follow their father’s example but turned to dishonest ways of making money. They took bribes and denied people justice.  (4)  Then all the leaders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah.  (5)  They told him, “You’re old, and your sons aren’t following your example. Now appoint a king to judge us so that we will be like all the other nations.“  (6)  But Samuel considered it wrong for them to request a king to judge them. So Samuel prayed to the LORD.  (7)  The LORD told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me.  (8)  They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt-leaving me and serving other gods.  (9)  Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.“  (10)  Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the LORD had said.  (11)  Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king: He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.  (12)  He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.  (13)  He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.  (14)  He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.  (15)  He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.  (16)  He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle, and your donkeys for his own use.  (17)  He will take a tenth of your flocks. In addition, you will be his servants.  (18)  “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The LORD will not answer you when that day comes.“  (19)  But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king!  (20)  Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out to war, and fight our battles.“  (21)  When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the LORD.  (22)  The LORD told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.“ Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go back to your own cities.“

God’s original intention was to provide the needs of His creation.  But as the creation rejects Him they replace His leadership as well.  God intended to provide for Adam and Eve so they wuldn’t ever have to work, but they disobeyed His one command so God made it so he would have to work for a living from the Earth to get by.  Noticing the progression of structure in the Bible from God directly ruling, to having judges, to having kings, I recognize that the more human involvement there is in government structure the farther we get from being able to discern God’s will.  I propose democracy is the least of all ideologies because putting the power to judge and legislate in the hands of the corrupt masses only furthers corruption.

Finally the last scripture that gives me a desire to understand a theocracy is because according to the account John provides in Revelation there will be one when Christ comes back to reign for a millenium.

Revelation 20:4-6
(4)  Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.  (5)  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead.  (6)  Happy and greatly blessed are those who are included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 21:3-7
(3)  I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God’s home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God.  (4)  He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.“  (5)  Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!“ He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.“  (6)  And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.  (7)  Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.

Theocracy was the original governing ideology of the Earth.  It is the governing ideology of Heaven.  It will be the governing ideology of Earth again.  I hope to live long enough to see it reinstated some day.

So now I have provided quite the Biblical background for what it was, is and will be, but practically it’s hard to understand what it may look like to the common citizen of such a government.  I am not greatly educated on the differences between socialism and communism or I could state that it looks like one or the other.  It will be a utopian society with minimal government structure, just enough to make sure those in need get appropriate care.  A government headed by Christ can not be selfish or greedy or unfair.  The only one that should have absolute power to rule is the one that currently holds it.  The one who should be allowed to judge should be the only one with an omniscient standing.  Christ is flawless and can not be the cause of corrupt government.  Communism and socialsim don’t work because the guy in charge doesn’t want to work his butt off for a wage the lowest worker gets paid for with much less effort.  However under theocracy, people become concerned with the well being of others before themselves and the higher up the government chain of command the more so that becomes true.  Utopian society has one flaw that keeps it from working and that is the selfish nature of humans.  Theocracy takes care of this problem.

Adam Smith’s theories changed the face of economic practice.  Laissez-faire economics, as time has proven IMO, has done little more than encourage social caste systems and poverty.  Eventually someone figures out how to take advantage of the system and we get monopolies because no one tried to stop the selfish desires of an ambitious few.  I remember the points of relevance made in the movie “A Beautiful Mind” about John Nash’s theory.  While I haven’t read the theory myself what I got from the movie is that the best thing for the economy is not free competition but cooperation.  Do what is best for the group and you will get off better than you would most likely than by competing.  I believe charity is the means to the end of poverty, not welfare or legislation.  People giving the abundance they have of their own free will to be distributed to the needy is the best solution.  In theocracy it would seem you would worry about people still being selfish in nature, but as the leadership provides an example to live by and they have a god they desire to please, they will desire to give what they can out of their own free will.  No one will force them or persecute them if they don’t, but they will eventually choose to because it encourages the growth of society better than anything else.

So how would I say such seemingly impractical beliefs influence my every day life?  It actually affects my life in many ways.  Most obviously I don’t support human governance.  I don’t vote or endorse any politician because I don’t want to associate my moral values with the actions of anyone else.

Psalms 118:8-9
(8)  It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on people.  (9)  It is better to trust in the LORD than to depend on human leaders.

I try not to even talk about theocracy unless asked because I never want to come across as pushing my views on people.  Pushing my views on people would contradict the basis of the intentions of such a belief.  I don’t discuss current politics with people, as far as making judgements about whether the dems or GOP is right.  It doesn’t matter to me who is right if I don’t support them and don’t follow their beliefs anyways.  My concern is that the Church is trying to become too much of a political power and its desire for political power is severely damaging the cause it is charged with overseeing in the Bible.  The Church is supposed to be concerned with people’s souls not their political leanings.  Politics is a distraction to the purpose of the Church.  I believe it is much more effective anyways to make a moral impact by being legitimately concerned with people, caring for them, and practicing what you preach.  You can’t force people to be moral.  Legislation for moral values I think if anything only makes things worse becuase not only do you take away a person’s right to exercise free will, but you also may invoke in them a natural desire to rebel against authority.  Morality is promoted one on one by investing time in people’s lives.

I very rarely read the news anymore.  I believe freedom of the press has done little more than encourage more lies to be published than truth.  Freedom of the press has turned truth into a gray issue.  Under a monarchy or dictatorship there seems to be much less gray and more black and white.  Under theocracy God is not going lie so we don’t even have to worry about anything.

Some may say if you don’t stand up for others then who will stand up for you when you are left all alone.  I say it doesn’t matter.  No government no matter the ideology or structure can destroy my free will to do what I please anyways.  If the government wants to take away my rights let them do so.  Until they take away rights that make me unable to follow the commandments of God, I have no reason to rebel.  If they even go so far as to make Christianity illegal, it wouldn’t matter and would more likely be a mistake on their part.  People that face high amounts of religious persecution thrive better in such states anyways.  The church in China is the fastest growing on Earth thanks to the Communist party.  If the Communists really wanted to get rid of the Church they would make Christianity the official religion and provide benefits to the Christians.  Complacency kills the Church faster than anything else.  The Church in America has been weakened by our current government system because there really isn’t enough separation between church and state.  When you can make people feel they don’t need God, what they believe doesn’t matter, because their faith really does begin to lie with their own abilities.

(Note: This is definitely not super organized.  It is still very much under development.  I am hoping one day to be able to do enough background research on philosophy and history and in current events to develop the idea into a book.  What is seen here are the random arguments for theocracy that run around my own mind.  If you have suggestions of philosophers I should read I will definitely consider all of them.  I’m beginning a small collection all ready of major philosophies on my bookcase.)

Comments:

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THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/11/2004 at 11:58 PM

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Originally posted by Nunyabiz:
And yet I could present 1000X the evidence all irrefutable & verifiable and you & all other born again Christians would completely deny it all correct?

I can’t speak for all of them, but I’m not going to deny your evidence without proof if I am to get into a battle of intellect.  Can I please ask that you slow down a bit, preferably to a stop.  I can’t respond to your evidence if I can’t have time to look it over and do other research before you heap on more arguments.  As much as I’d like to make it my job to find evidence to refute yours, I’m a student about to head into finals week so I really don’t even have the time to write this or most of my other posts.

Frumpa Australia Posted on 12/12/2004 at 12:09 AM

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Thats a laughable statement THEOCRAT.Everybody stop what thier doing ‘cause I need study time.Are you for real dude? - Seriously,who the hell do you think you are?

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THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 12:42 AM

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Well you could keep posting evidence, but if you want a serious debate you will need more than one side.

leguru United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 12:53 AM

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The problem, nunyabiz, and others, is that we are dealing in apples vs oranges. Reality is boring. Fantasy (imagination, faith?) is the strongest human motivation. What occurred in the O.J. trial? How much money does Disneyland make in a day? How many people voted for George W.? They voted for a fantasy of what they wanted to believe George W. was or would become, or were scared by a fantasy of what they believed John F. would become. The “True Believer” is beyond reason and logic. They seem incapable of seeing the contradictions in their own systems of belief. Too bad. But, if everybody saw things the way we do, what a boring place this would be! cheese

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“What is a good man but a bad man’s teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man’s job?
If you don’t understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret.“ LAO-TZU

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/12/2004 at 01:46 AM

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Thats a laughable statement THEOCRAT.Everybody stop what thier doing ‘cause I need study time.Are you for real dude? - Seriously,who the hell do you think you are?

I’m on Theo’s side on this one, remembering how bad exam weeks were and seeing how much my students are struggling I would agree with his assessment that if you want serious debate there’s no way you’re going to get it out of someone who’s trying to study for finals.

I guess what I’m saying is give the guy a break, he seems to have demonstrated at least some desire to hold honest debate (despite the fact that he won’t acknowledge that omniscience and freewill are indeed incompatible) so if he says that he’s too busy at the moment to adequately meet your objections, it’s probably true.

zilch Austria Posted on 12/12/2004 at 01:52 AM

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theo said: If someone does a video game thread and says these are some things they should have done to improve the video game, I can pretend I care about video gaming long enough to disagree with them and say no these changes would have been better for certain reasons.

Yes, but we both agree that video games exist.  For an atheist to “pretend to care” about theocracy is the same as debating how many Grilled Cheese Virgin Mary’s can dance on George Bush’s head- amusing and perhaps relevant politically, given the horrors visited upon us by self-declared theocracies, but ultimately just a fantasy.

quasar said: I’m probably picking nits here, but the term ‘immaculate conception’ refers to Mary’s conception, not Jesus’s.  My catholic grandparents were particularly bothered by this misconception typically repeated by the ‘evil’ protestants.

You’ve picked an interesting nit here.  Those madcap Catholics!  Here in Austria Dec. 8 is still celebrated as Marienempfängnis, or Immaculate Conception.  This conception is nowhere to be found in the Bible. For the Protestants, Mary’s virginity made her worthy enough to bear the Christ.  But for some Catholics, especially the Jesuits, this was not pure enough, and on Dec. 8, 1854, Pius IX declared Mary’s own conception to be immaculate.

But what about Mary’s parents’ conceptions?  Lots of room for more immaculateness…

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
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Frumpa Australia Posted on 12/12/2004 at 02:38 AM

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Fair enough S.S,but my point is there are plenty of people commenting on this HUGE thread and no doubt quite enjoying the discussion,so it seems a little much for Theo to expect us to fold up cause its beddy-time.Its the World Wide Web remember…And I seem to recall he’s not totally alone on his side of the fence anyhoo

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“The Sun - a weird punishment disc in the sky” - Patton Oswalt.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 07:19 AM

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I thought this might be a cue to post a link to:

Over Three Hundred Disproofs of God’s Existence

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

zilch Austria Posted on 12/12/2004 at 07:40 AM

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elwed- I’m not settling for less than three million.  Any fewer than that, and She exists.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
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Les United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 10:10 AM

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Elwed, we’ve technically linked to that before, only it was the original Over 300 Proofs Of The Existence of God by the Atheists of Silicon Valley, which, I think, is much better.

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Agnostics are just atheists without balls. - Stephen Colbert

serge Canada Posted on 12/12/2004 at 10:12 AM

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Reality might be boring as Leguru said but I am not sure I want to be entertained by all the suffering and violence.

And I think SURVIVAL is the greatest motivation.
Throughout ages authorities have made us believe that by being in their clan you were insuring your survival. They actually made sure that if you were not part of them, life would be very hard.

Ex: The christian inquisition of europe a couple of hundred years ago.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 11:14 AM

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Les, how about How to irritate an atheist?

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 02:21 PM

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According to that list I believe that would make the atheists the most irritable people in the world.  You certainly can’t convince people you care about their knowledge of truth f you are going to come across as irritable. wink

Originally posted by Socialist Swine:
(despite the fact that he won’t acknowledge that omniscience and freewill are indeed incompatible)

I acknowledge this now then.  By the logical arguments made in that thread, free will and omniscience are not compatible.  I believe though that I might need to write an article about why I can not be an athiest.  Eventually.  Hopefully.

zilch Austria Posted on 12/12/2004 at 02:26 PM

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theo- if you’ve got the time, check out:
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
You might recognize some of the arguments there…

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 02:41 PM

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I recognize many of them.  My preference would be that the last argument on all of them say, “Therefore, God might exist.“  I think if you can get enough mights into your thought process that’s where that leap of faith choice comes in.  Making each argument definitively yes or no is something I don’t think can be done.  It’s all about how you perceive the mights.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/12/2004 at 03:08 PM

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(theocrat) I acknowledge this now then.

Wow. You’re the first theist to visit this site in living memory that actually conceded a position. Wow again. By the way, here are two random links pulled from Google that treat the topic in a lot more depth - biased as they are.

Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom, by Linda Zagzebski

ROBERT KANE: REFLECTIONS ON FREE WILL,
DETERMINISM AND INDETERMINISM

I believe though that I might need to write an article about why I can not be an athiest.  Eventually.  Hopefully.

It would be an interesting read, but please note that a simple “it would make me unhappy” or equivalent is already more than you have to volunteer.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

bibledumper United States Posted on 12/13/2004 at 04:17 AM

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I didn’t realize that there were Christians who believe that Mary’s herself was the product of immaculate conception. So Jesus’s father was also his grandfather, and his mother was also his half sister? Why would anyone want to put these people in charge?

zilch Austria Posted on 12/13/2004 at 04:21 AM

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No no no bibledumper!  God didn’t provide the seed for Mary, He just spruced it up a bit, by removing that pesky Original Sin from it.  Dirty mind!

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

bibledumper United States Posted on 12/13/2004 at 04:39 AM

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Thanks for clearing that up zilch. If we’re gonna have a theocracy, I don’t want it looking like the British “royal” family.

Nunyabiz United States Posted on 12/13/2004 at 12:01 PM

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Here is a couple thoughts on the sheer lunacy of Theocracy.

The world theocracy that some religious leaders aspire to impose on the third rock from the sun would mean the end of anything resembling a sanely operating society.
Christianity is a complete negation of common sense and sound reason. It would be fine if Christianity were only that. We can live with nonsense. The world is full of it. But Christianity is different, especially when its adherents consider its operating procedures absolutely imperative for running the universe.

http://slovakia.humanists.net/theocracy.htm

Theocracies are a completely impossible form of Government for a myriad of irreconcilable reasons.

First & foremost the governing body is trying to impose laws upon millions that are based entirely on supernatural dogma that goes against all reason, all rational thought.
This would be basically like electing Charlie Manson as president then giving Him carte blanche to do as He pleases.
http://www.cqpress.com/context/articles/epr_theo.html

Since its inception, religion has been used over and over to justify the most horrific atrocities possible. As the alleged Jesus Christ said, “by their fruits shall ye know them,“ and since the beginning, religion’s fruits have been evil, violence, hatred and bloodshed. The Bible’s Old Testament contains instances of divinely sanctioned genocide, mass child rape, slavery and human sacrifice, and commands execution by stoning or burning as the punishment for the most trifling crimes.Likewise, religion has also been regularly used to promote bigotry, racism, intolerance, ignorance, injustice and violations of basic human rights. Practically throughout recorded history, it has been used as a tool in the oppression of women, minorities and the poor.
There is no evidence whatsoever for the claims of any religion. No scientific study has ever offered objective evidence of the efficacy of prayer, the existence of a soul or an afterlife, or the occurrence of miracles; no logician or philosopher has ever been able to produce a proof of God. The historical evidence for the existence of prophets such as Jesus is extremely weak and flimsy at best and non-existent at worst. The holy books of virtually every religion are riddled with self-contradictions, logical and factual errors, and failed prophecies.

Religion is psychologically harmful. It teaches that life is constant, never-ending suffering; that all human beings, merely by virtue of being born, are evil sinners who deserve death and damnation; that omniscient deities are constantly looking over your shoulder, marking down every evil deed you perform, every evil thought you have; that demons and malignant spirits are constantly assaulting us, attempting to tempt humans into sin; that suffering and persecution are desirable and bring us closer to God; that there are certain absolute rules and authorities which may not be investigated or questioned; that believers must close their minds to contrary evidence and arguments and think about their religion only in the affirmative.

Religion promotes superstition and ignorance. By preaching the existence of the supernatural, the miraculous and other unfalsifiable, unscientific doctrines, religions damage their followers’ critical thinking and logic skills and encourage gullibility and uncritical acceptance of many other types of harmful pseudoscience.

Religion is mind control. Instead of presenting their case in a logical manner to those mature enough to evaluate it, religions seek to win converts while they are still young, indoctrinating children who have not yet learned to distinguish fantasy from reality or to critically evaluate the claims of authority figures.

Religion is dangerous. Any crime, any injustice, any evil act can be justified by claiming “God is on my side” - and such justifications have been offered for many such acts, as noted above. Absolutist theocracies around the world show how readily religion can be used as a tool of oppression and control, an excuse for the few to impose their will on the many. Religion has a long and well-known history of persecuting and silencing nonbelievers and stifling alternative thought. Such can still be seen today in, for example, the Scientology church’s relentless legal attacks on its critics, or the Iranian government’s crackdown on moderates and reformers. Churches frequently plead for equality and tolerance when they are in the minority, but almost invariably attempt to dominate society, gain civil power and outlaw other faiths given the slightest chance.

In short, religion is spiritually, factually and historically bankrupt. And when the false theistic doctrines fall away, atheism is the only option left. Atheism has never been used as justification for bigotry, crimes and injustices. Atheism makes no positive claims that require supporting evidence, especially not any claims about unfalsifiable supernatural agents. Atheism is perfectly logical and self-consistent, contains no internal contradictions, and promotes valuable qualities such as skepticism, free thinking and open-mindedness. It is a diverse movement with no centralized authorities to demand conformity or impose rules. And it just plain makes sense. This is why I am an atheist, this is why I reject the theistic madness that has dominated human thought for most of recorded history, and this is why I firmly believe that we as a race can and should discard religion once and for all.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/necessityofatheism.html

As for being governed by some non existent Bogeyman himself that isn’t ever going to happen obviously.

Spocko United States Posted on 12/13/2004 at 06:58 PM

Spocko pic

I was going to quote something from
http://theocracywatch.org
but I think I’ll just go hurl instead!

Quasar United States Posted on 12/13/2004 at 09:50 PM

Quasar pic

I didn’t realize that there were Christians who believe that Mary’s herself was the product of immaculate conception. So Jesus’s father was also his grandfather, and his mother was also his half sister? Why would anyone want to put these people in charge?

LOL!!  The Immaculate Conception doesn’t refer to God “pinch hitting” for Josef, but it refers to the story that Mary was the first person to be born without original sin (Adam and Eve weren’t really born, they were ‘Intelligently Designed’).  After all, God isn’t going to knock up anyone filled with sin and spend the next nine months living in the sinful woman he just knocked up, is he?

Hey, since Mary was married to Josef when God impregnated her, isn’t that considered adultery?  Since the Old Testament rules were still in effect until Jesus was born, doesn’t that mean that Mary and God should have been killed according to God’s Law?

Leviticus 20:10
  “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.“

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/14/2004 at 12:07 AM

THEOCRAT pic

I don’t agree with much of anything on that theocracywatch site.  I have a feeling this topic is going nowhere fast.  The God of the Bible you read has only a few character traits all of which seem to be evil.  The God of the Bible I read is much more well rounded then that, but it looks like I don’t have a whole lot of a chance convincing anyone of that.

Frumpa Australia Posted on 12/14/2004 at 12:15 AM

Frumpa pic

Just like Nostradamus’s big joke book,you can read it with any interpretation you like really - Both are waffle.Did you read some fluffy,Hallmark bible the rest of us missed THEOCRAT,with all the nasty bits removed,or do you suffer from religious blindness where you only take in the bits that fit your arguement? I remember you posting that you believe the bible cover to cover,the whole shebang.

 Signature 

“The Sun - a weird punishment disc in the sky” - Patton Oswalt.

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 12/14/2004 at 01:26 AM

THEOCRAT pic

Granted I haven’t read the entire Bible, but I’ve been seriously studying it for more than five years now.  I don’t deny the negative traits exist.  The death toll post doesn’t surprise me in the least.  However I acknowledge the scriptures that connotate a negative impression as well as the ones with postive impressions.  I see you can spout off the negative ones, but do any of you really have any idea how far the other side of the argument extends?  I honestly wouldn’t want to live in a theocracy under the God you describe either.

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