P.P.S.  Sorry for the triple posting but I just found a good article about what Josephus probably said about Jesus.  Here are more alternate translations.

By James Charlesworth:

About this time there was Jesus, a wise man, a teacher of people who with pleasure received the unusual. He stirred up both many Jews and also many of the Greeks.  And when Pilate condemned him to the cross, since he was accused by the first-rate men among us, those who had been loving (him from) the first did not cease (to cause trouble). And until now the tribe of Christians, so named from him, is not (yet?) extinct.

By F.F. Bruce:

Now there arose about this time a source of further trouble in one Jesus, a wise man who performed surprising works, a teacher of men who gladly welcome strange things. He led away many Jews, and also many of the Gentiles. He was the so-called Christ. When Pilate, acting on information supplied by the chief men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had attached themselves to him at first did not cease to cause trouble, and the tribe of Christians, which has taken this name from him, is not extinct even today.

Also, Josephus refers to Jesus indirectly in another section of The Antiquities saying something like (depending on who’s doing the translating):

so he [Ananus, son of Ananus the high priest] assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before him the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and someothers (or some of his companions) and when he had formed an accusation against them, he delivered them to be stoned.

As such I feel safe in the suggestion that there is likely a historical person that the Christ figure is based on.  As for the properties attributed to him, that I find more doubtful.

Spocko,

As I have said, you impress me with your amount of knowledge, I can respect this. Unfortunatly, knowledge is dangerous. You ask for the Bible to contain things that it is not intended for. The Bible is a Holy Book and is protected by a spirit refered to as the Gospel. Please let me try and explain it to you.

The devils bring sin into this world and we accept it from them, for that we are guilty of sin.
The devils live inside us, they control us with sins, little ones like impatience, lies, pride, laziness, lust, greed and so forth.
They fear and loathe the gospel as it has the power to remove them from you. They are inside your mind and will tell you not to accept the gospel, they are stronger and smarter than any of us, they are devils. The devils fear Jesus and the Gospel.
The Gospel is the spirit of the Bible.
The Gospel is the teachings left for us by Jesus.
To use the Gospel you must accept those teachings because they were given to us by Jesus.
Actively seeking the truth gives us the power over evil. The truth is Jesus Christ the Saviour. gave us the gospel can save you from Hell.
The important part is Jesus Christ can save us from Hell. Looking into the Bible for what you was looking into it for you will not find.
Jesus gives us the Gospel because that is the purpose of the Bible.
Jesus is righteous and good He expects the same from us and gives the gospel to us in the form of lessons.
You say there were a lot of people called Jesus and that the Bible copies other older mythologies.
The devils have been controlling man for a long time and foresaw the coming of Jesus in advance.
Prophecy told of the saviour and that he would raise from the dead after three days.
The devils mock the prophecy to beguile us from the Gospel.
The devils live inside our minds where we think about things, their power over us is strong. Satan is strong, but Jesus is stronger and He gives us the Gospel.
Satan gave us sin and uses that to control our thoughts we can only overcome that by willingly accepting the Gospel. The Gospel are lessons given to us by Jesus. Sin is the force of chaos that all people desire, it is everything wrong that we do, the Gospel is lessons on how to behave properly. Of course you know how to behave properly, but the power of the Gospel is that it is given to us by Jesus. Jesus is stronger than the devil, but you must accept it for it to work. You must accept it because it was given to us by Jesus. Jesus is stronger than the devil, no one else is.
Jesus rose from the dead after three days and fulfilled the prophecy no one else did that, no one else can, Horus did not, Jesus did. Jesus gave us the Gospel. The Gospel can save you from the devil.
For the Gospel to reach you, you must use it for the right reason. It’s reason is to drive the devils from you and save your soul from Hell.
The Bible does not have in it what you were talking about, it has Jesus’ Gospel in it. The Gospel drives the devils from you and saves you from Hell.
The Gospel works because it was given to us by Jesus.
Do not worry about which Jesus it was, unfortunatly you have heard there was more than one Jesus. These are the false Jesuses they did not give us the gospel and did not raise from the dead after three days as the prophecy said the saviour would. They were controlled by the devils and did many foolish things.
Jesus’ Gospel saves you from the devils and from Hell.
Do not expect the Bible to have the those things you were talking about in it, they are not there.
Do not look to the Gospel for those things you were talking about those are not in there, that is not the purpose of the Bible, the Bible contains the Gospel of Jesus and saves you from Hell.

Please lets start over, you said you have questions that you are waiting to be answered on concerning the Bible.  It seems to me you miss completly what the intention of the Bible is. The gospel is the Sipirt of the Bible.
Satan and his devils fear Jesus, so of course they do not want you to use it. They are afraid of it and want to keep controlling you and do not want you to see the truth. The truth is Jesus’ Gospel saves you from the devils and from Hell.

You said you are waiting for someone to answer questions you have repeatedly asked. I looked through your posts on this thread and read your questions. You asked for evidence of the Bible’s truth. I am impressed by you, you must have a very strong willpower. I believe people who actively seek the truth will find it eventualy. So I will now tell you the truth about the Bible. It is a holy book, that is why you have heard of it so many times. It’s power has impressed so many people in the past and present that those who have reached salvation through it are very willing to share it with others who seek the truth.

Actively seeking the truth is the power over evil, I know you seek the truth you have said this before and I know you have read the Bible you said this, too.
What you have not done is read the Bible for the reason it is intended for.

The Bible contains the Gospel of Jesus.
The Gospel is the Bible’s spirit and it rejects the devils from anyone who accepts it. If you believe in it.
Jesus wants us to believe in him, he expects us to be able to do that.  You must be able to put aside everything you know and all the trust you have in yourself and the human race to believe in Him. He does not want us to trust in the system that uses all of our dying worlds resources on trivial things. He does not want us to believe we can save ourselves with time travel and space ships, because we can not. We spend all of our money on fighting and killing over oil that will not last that long anyways, our world is dying and He knows that, even if we do not. The truth is hard to see, the truth is Jesus Christ can save your soul from Hell. The devils keep you blind to the truth with sin, sin is everything that is evil in this world like lies and death. To see the truth you must accept the truth and the truth is Jesus Christ can save your soul from Hell, but the devils don’t want you to see that. To look into His Bible for the things you were talking about is to look into it for the wrong reasons, the Bible has Jesus’ Gospel in it and can save you from the devils and from Hell.

You told me you did not understand what I meant when I said you sound like someone who would ask God for money if you met Him. I will explain, the sin that you commit that keeps you from understanding the real Jesus is that you do not believe the truth.
God is not your neighbor nor are you in anyway His equal and if you act like you are He will not come to you. You have to find Him by accepting His perfect gospel and tell Him you are sorry for doubting Him. You do not realize the danger you are in and that is why you are in danger and do not have Jesus, the real Jesus. That is why when you read the Bible you don’t get anything out of it, it is because you are looking in it for something that is not there. The truth is in the bible, the truth is only the real Jesus can save your soul from Hell.

socialist swine,

After reading the last statement of that last post of yours, I guess the one I just left up there is fits in pretty well for you, too.
I am sorry to say that though.

Knowledge puts the soul at risk, be careful with that.

Gijnabar said: Knowledge puts the soul at risk, be careful with that.

Back in the late ‘70’s I went to college in East Tennessee, and used to listen to local preachers on the car radio.  They had a style known as “Preach-Praying” that was pretty entertaining, which coupled with terrible breath control, made them sound like they were enduring a 20-minute religious heart attack.

One of them in particular was fond of bragging that he was thankful Gawd had made him “iggerent as a hawg.” He’d go on at length about how knowledge was the devilll’s instrument and how keeping himself free of knowledge kept him pure for Gawd.

Just thought I’d share that little tidbit.  Take out the E. Tennessee accent (or maybe not, I don’t know) and the charming rural aphorisms, and you have a similar concept.

Huh.  Wonder why the almighty creator endowed us with cerebral cortexes and a burning desire to know stuff about our universe?

Gijnabar, I’m not sure whether you’re trying to convert us, or seeking advice yourself, or some of both.  If you are trying to convert us, I’m afraid you are not going to get very far.  Most of us here have had a fair-to-great amount of exposure to fundamentalist belief, and have found it wanting. You said it yourself- knowledge is dangerous.  Too much knowledge of science, of psychology, of comparative religion, and the chances are slim that you will believe the way you do.

That said, if you want to seek a path within your chosen religion (and there is much good that may be done in the name of religion), DoF had the best advice:  Find a good church that doesn’t just talk the talk, but also walks the walk: feeds the poor, helps the needy, fights oppression and injustice.  Some of the people I most admire are inspired by their religion to do great things.

DoF- our posts crossed in cyberspace.  Maybe our cerebral cortices are the work of the Devil, too, like lust and laziness.

Gijnabar, what you say amounts to ‘You don’t believe, so you don’t get it’. Right on. We don’t believe (as in credoulously accept something), we want to be convinced of something with enough facts that we can believe (as in consider likely enough to accept).

You say that to find Jesus/God/whatchamacallit we have to search hard - but the first thing you demand of us in that search is to turn off our brains and simply accept your favored piece of paper as truth. I don’t call that a SEARCH.

Socialist Swine, I’ve covered the supposed statements by Josephus about Jesus in other threads before so I’ll summarize here. Most Biblical scholars admit that there’s clear evidence that Josephus’ words were tampered with later by others trying to establish proof of Jesus’ existence. At best it appears that Josephus was merely relating what he’d been told by others and not giving a first-hand account. See this faq for more on that.

Now a small comment on Gijnabar’s last missive in which he said:

Knowledge puts the soul at risk, be careful with that.

This is why I’ve not even bothered trying to reply to the last few comments from this moron. He freely admits that you have to be an idiot to believe this crap because knowing too much is dangerous. This is the worst kind of Christian; the kind who thinks ignorance is wisdom. You can’t reason with them or discuss anything rationally because they’ll reject anything that makes any kind of sense but goes against what they believe to be true.

Gijnabar said: Knowledge puts the soul at risk, be careful with that.

Gijnabar, EXCUSE ME?! You did not really type that, did you? Unbelievable.

Think about this..."The truth never harms a cause that is just.”

If knowledge (or truth) is bad for your particular cause, it’s not a worthy cause to begin with. A worthy cause, or doctrine, should be able to withstand loads and loads of truth/knowledge without flinching. Which neither the Bible or Christianity can do. For that matter, none of the revealed religions can.

Les,

Thanks for the link.  The funny thing is that the article has both the translations by Charlesworth and Bruce as examples of alternate translations in which were more likely to be accurate to what Josephus actually said, which was as you suggest something very different than Christian scholars have interpreted him as saying. 

That said, in my earlier posts I was just trying to note that there is some evidence that there was a historical figure that the Christ character in Christian thought is based upon.  I wasn’t trying to suggest that we should accept that the historical Jesus is Christ.  I would think that he was probably a very charismatic leader of a small Jewish cult that took off after his execution. 

All that aside, I wanted to join in on the WTFing regarding the following line:

Knowledge puts the soul at risk, be careful with that

and raise it a little by adding some “you have to be joking” regarding:

The reason for this, by my experience is that you don’t question authority

Gijn, that’s the kind of thinking that allowed the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis during the first half of the last century.  Are you actually serious when you say that authority shouldn’t be questioned?

I’m thinking Gijn has GOT to be pulling our leg. Knowledge is dangerous?! Don’t question authority?!

I taste bait. Or, I hope I do. Then I could at least get the joke. But those being real sentiments scares me to death.

Josephus wasn’t even born before this alleged “Jesus Christ” Godman was supposedly killed, so certainly no chance of direct contact of any kind.

The Jewish Antiquities was published in 94CE.

However another book he wrote I believe was named “Jewish Wars” or something to that effect was published about 30 years earlier and mentioned the exact same story where Christian forgers slid in those Jesus lines.
BUT in that same story NO MENTION of any Jesus, and this was 30 years earlier.

Hmmmm, yeah forged, the Testimonium Flavianum is not listed in the Table of Contents or index either, slight oversight by the Christian forger.
http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/eisler.htm

There is nothing whatsoever to support any historical “Jesus Christ” character as told by early Christians.

There is a possibility of a Yesuah Ben Pentera which was a Jewish Essene militant rabbi and part time roving magician that “may” be the model used for the Sun God Jesus.

Gijnabar, are you just trying to stir up incredulous comments for the sheer entertainment of it?  If so, that’s rather unwelcome behavior.

Or maybe you do believe this stuff.  Either way, hardly worth our time to discuss it with you.  Enjoy your eternity in heaven while we all roast in hell - heh.

I know this has been posted here before, but it’s one of my favorites:

“A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.”
- Arthur C. Clarke

Nunya,

I never said that Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus’.  I just said that he was a Jewish historian.  I was just noting that there were extra biblical references to a person that could be a historical basis for the Christ myth.  I just don’t think we should be so ready to dismiss the possibility that there might have been some sort of historical figure whom provided the basis for the Christian mythos.  As for whether Josephus is reliable as a historian in that he was born in 37 CE after Jesus is said to have died.  Howard Zinn was born in 1922 but he writes primarily on 18th and 19th century US labor relations.  So should I immediate dismiss what he has to say?

P.S.

There is a possibility of a Yesuah Ben Pentera which was a Jewish Essene militant rabbi and part time roving magician that “may� be the model used for the Sun God Jesus.

I’m not trying to say anything more.

Actually I was agreeing with you & Les both and just adding info.

Les: At best it appears that Josephus was merely relating what he’d been told by others and not giving a first-hand account

Which is why I stated he wasn’t born yet just to add to the fact that it could not have possibly been a “first hand account”

Howard Zinn was born in 1922 but he writes primarily on 18th and 19th century US labor relations.  So should I immediate dismiss what he has to say?

If you can show that most likely what he wrote was changed/forged/exaggerated by Fundy labor zealots in order to further their lunatic labor beliefs YES, dismiss it.
That is the case with Josephus.

Please lets start over, you said you have questions that you are waiting to be answered on concerning the Bible.  It seems to me you miss completly what the intention of the Bible is. The gospel is the Sipirt of the Bible.

It is you that misses the point entirely, also IF as you say you just recently got this fucked up in only 3 months (highly doubtful) then I would suggest to RUN from this mind plague immediately, get OUT of any church, burn that fucking Bible and get what mind you have left back to factual reality, if you got this fucked up in just 3 months then you are one of those “special” people that will very soon go way off the deep end, you will be hearing voices telling you to kill heathens to save their souls and bash babies heads in with rocks. PUT THE BIBLE DOWN NOW AND STEP AWAY.

So I will now tell you the truth about the Bible. It is a holy book, that is why you have heard of it so many times. It’s power has impressed so many people in the past and present that those who have reached salvation through it are very willing to share it with others who seek the truth.

Yes “Holy Bible” comes from “Helio Biblia” which means “Sun Book” as relating to “Sol Invictus” the reason you have heard it so many times is that millions of delusional psychotics for over 2000 years have been infected with this trash, have destroyed civilizations, burned all dissenting books (even the originals of itself to cover up the hoax) have brutally murdered 100s of Millions of innocent human beings, committed horrendous atrocities all totally justified in their diseased minds by this very same book.
There is no “Truth” held within it AT ALL.

The entire Bible is nothing but an Astrological drama, most of its characters, its parables, its homilies, etc were all copied from much older rituals & religions, all Pagan from Sumeria, Babylon, Kemet. You are doing nothing but deluding yourself.

You must be able to put aside everything you know and all the trust you have in yourself and the human race to believe in Him.

Now drink the koolaid.

The “truth” about the Bible is that it is all complete bullshit, a fairytale copied from much older pagan religions.
I have WAY more than adequately proven this to “my” satisfaction as once you lay the template of Astrology/Numerology over the Bible is the ONLY way the pieces fit, and the ONLY way it makes a lick of sense, you can easily trace the stories, parables, homilies, characters back to ancient pagan religions & rituals, just like the “Lazarus/El-Azur-us” connection I posted above, just like the obvious fact that the Jewish hero/godman Jesus is positively just a resurrected copy of the Kemetic Horus & Mithras, there are WAY to many exact similarities to discount this, and Horus predates “Judaism” by at least 2500 years & Mithras predates Christianity by at least 600-800 years so there is no doubt who copied whom here.

Personally IF you are for real (which I doubt) then I would sincerely suggest you seek Psychiatric care, do NOT, repeat do NOT further fuck yourself up by jumping out of the frying pan (internet) into the fire (church).
IF you are one of those people that feel you simply must be part of a Cult then best suggestion there, is to try something like “Secular Humanism” which takes all of the good parts of religion, the camaraderie, the basic humanistic values WE ALL possess and leaves all the bullshit, the supernatural mumbo jumbo, the blatant lies in the realm of fables & fairytales where they belong.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/

The Unitarian Universalists aren’t bad either.

The Bible is a Holy Book and is protected by a spirit refered to as the Gospel.

And you must say the words correctly before opening it ("Klaatu Barada Niktu") or you’ll unleash the deadites upon us.

Does that make it the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, and the Gospel Ghost?  The Holy Quartet?

Holy quartet? Are you a polytheist?
There is only one God, Jesus Christ is the name I know Him as.
The Gospel is the spirit of His story and the lessons He gave us, such as the spirit of truth.

Many people on sites such as this one find their truths from books, each other and from a form of Satanism called self empowerment, but there is no knowledge that equals the gospel of Christ. He explains to us we fall short of the glory of God.
It is an act of faith to admit to Him that we are wrong, that is repentance.

Man, your comments just keep getting funnier and funnier. You’re either one of the better trolls to come by SEB in a long time or a bigger idiot than I first imagined you to be. Your hypocrisy knows no limits. You have the gall to say:

The Gospel is the spirit of His story and the lessons He gave us, such as the spirit of truth.

And then turn around and say…

Many people on sites such as this one find their truths from books, each other and from a form of Satanism called self empowerment, but there is no knowledge that equals the gospel of Christ.

Without a hint of the irony involved in doing so. Here’s a clue: The Gospels are a book, written by men, same as any other.

Personally, I think you’re a fraud and a liar. For someone who’s supposedly so new to your faith you sure seem to be able to regurgitate a lot of the nonsense without much effort.

Your belief

The Gospels are a book, written by men, same as any other.

My Belief
The Gospel is the Spirit of the Bible that has the power to drive evil spirits from the minds of man. It was given to us by Jesus Christ who can save us from Hell because He is God and can forgive us of all our sins.

You can only accept this forgiveness by admitting to Him that you are a sinner. As we see, to do this is very difficult for people. Especialy those who think time machines and teaching monkeys how to talk can save our dying world. Maybe, you think nothing is wrong at all, as you seem to rather enjoy saying bad things to people, or perhaps you have just listened to that type of person so much that it has adversly affected you, that’s giving you the benefit of the doubt, of course.
What pleases you the most, the wanton waste of our planets resources or the suffering of innocent people?

Gijn,

I think you’re the polytheist with your “The Gospel is the Spirit of the Bible” view.  As for your time machines and talking monkeys, where did you get that from?  I’m starting to think that you’re engaging in some sort of parody or satire of fundamentalist Christians.  No one can really think the things that you’re saying.  I’m starting to suspect that you’re Peter Fredson in disguise....

Man, your comments just keep getting funnier and funnier. You’re either one of the better trolls to come by SEB in a long time or a bigger idiot than I first imagined you to be.

I’m starting to think it’s that second one, Les.

Man, your comments just keep getting funnier and funnier. You’re either one of the better trolls to come by SEB in a long time or a bigger idiot than I first imagined you to be.

The sad thing is that both options kinda take a part of the fun out of arguing with him.

Then again - time machines? Cool. Hey Ganja (I’ll call you Ganja from now on, okay?) - what about the aliens? You ain’t said nothing about the aliens yet!

Guys,

I’m getting more confident that Ginj is one of us in disguise being funny.  When you consider that this thread is about “The Worst Argument of All”, what Ginj is actually saying, and the irony of it all, it is, in my opinion, impossible to deny the comic genius that’s behind it all.