Is there any way to paste paste some thing here ?
Jesus will forgive murderers for there sins,
but he wont forgive me for not “believing”.
seems like kinda a contradiction.

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Basil - I write most of my comments in a text editor like Notepad.  (My favorite is win32pad.)

Then you select the text, press down the ctrl key and tap the C key (ctrl+c) to copy the text.

Now click inside the comment box, press down the ctrl key, and tap the V key (ctrl+v) to paste.

There are lots of other ways to do it.  Of course that assumes you’re running a computer with Windows.  If you use a Mac or Linux; same idea, different keys.

I suggest you press the F1 key and start perusing the ‘Help” files on your computer.  Before you know it people will think you’re some kind of wizard.

Thank you mister Decripitolfool, I’ll try that.
I arrived at this site by researching Mr. Kent Bovine Mooooooo..... A.K.A. the evolved spieces Hovind Erectus. All you main players are are superb analitical debaters,and I’ve enjoyed reading many threads. Sometimes I wonder if there is a god. If a child sticks a finger into an ant hill
and an ant climbs onboard for a second,then goes back and tells the other ants he’s seen god… its a finger. The atheist ants all say no way man, your fulla shit dude. If there is a god and the universe is just an ant hill,I’m not climbing onto a finger.To reach god certainly is not by all the injustices done, by people in organized religion.
Has anyone read Horton Hears a Who ??. There might a god, and he may manifest him or herself in an intangible form; but I’m still not going to like religion.

Gijnabar:

Don’t bother checking out the bunk about Lazarus.  That is adopted from conspiracy theorists that also state that aliens are living amongst us.  Google Archarya S.

I would like now to face Les’ last comnment about me being a poser, totally not cool of Les.

From the above point on you’ve raised my suspicions that you’re actually just a comment troll. For someone who claims to be 34 and working as a PR person for a video game developer you seem to be regurgitating a pretty stereotypical account of your conversion and your supposed lack of familiarity with common concepts such as what a “circular file� is gives good reason to be suspicious of your claims. Then there’s the linking to the Chic Tracts which is a favored flame bait from folks just looking to stir up trouble.

I think a troll means a liar, please don’t think I am a liar, Les. The only reason I gave that information about myself is because I thought that in another post it was suggested for. I may be wrong at times, I admit to not being perfect, but I will not consciencly make such an error in character. Gijnabar is my alter ego name on the few role playing games I still mess with and will not flame on any website. I do have a healthy amount of respect for this site as I can see that it is very busy.

Yes, I was a PR for a video game studio, as in Public Relations, I am actualy a very good talker and all around sales person, I got big white teeth. I was helping a ‘friend’ of mine start up his own company here in the states, he was from an another country not me and a very good 3d engineer. I can say that I sucessfuly helped him to find the venture capital he was looking for but as it turned out he was only planning on using me, surprise. I did not really mind at all as I had met a few talented artist types in the Greenpoint-Bedford to Wiliamsburg area and had a list of interested VCs in my database. In after running out of money and hitting the skids in good ole’ NYC I turned for home and began working on my own project after gaining 18 months experience in what is right now the number one money making industry in the world. No, I am not a programmer I am a gamer with good salesman tactics, I clicked with what I considered to be the right bunch of people for me. What DOF refered to as a circular is not in my vocabulary, sorry for that. The game I was working on was about cultists and their masters and was going to be a MMORPG. As I said in one of my earlier posts in mid april I found something much better and am a changed man.

Les, you said linking to chick tracts in a way that makes me think that people have done that before and you have had trouble with it, sorry about that one. I did not know or I would not have done it.

Consigliere, Thank you for your helpful words, I do not believe what he said concerning Lazarus as he mentions it as he claims it is an ealrier Egyptian myth and as we both know that the Egyptians, the Alexandrains in particular are to blame for much of the mistranslations of the biblical texts. What that means is that they are the enemmies of the Bible. I also notice that the maker of that comment believes everything he reads and disbelieves the Bible instead of thinking that the other books might be lying.
As in forgeries, and gave up on finding the true teacher of spiritual growth, Jesus.

Spocko,

I think you got “Jesus” and “Christ” mixed up.  “Jesus” is a latinized form of “Yeshua”, it was a name back then.  “Christ” is a bastardized version of “Kristos” a Greek word meaning savior.  Minor point, but one that might matter.  As for the historic Jesus, there some evidence that he did exist.  There are Roman records of his execution around Passover for inciting a riot or something like that.  That said, there is no contemporary record of the other things he is said to have done.  I guess that’s where the faith comes in.

I think it may be more appropriate to say ‘A’ Jesus existed at that time, rather than ‘THE’ Jesus. Especially as much proof for him in records of the time have been shown to be fakes added in when copies have been made of the original documents.

You would imagine monks making the copies may have noticed a distinct lack of information about Jesus, especially when the records of the time were often so detailed as to have several pages dedicated to ordinary people. The fact there were only simple paragraphs dedicated to Jesus do seem to stick out when you would imagine him to have entire chapters dedicated to him!

And on it goes, I don’t know why I find this nonsense so entertaining…

Don’t bother checking out the bunk about Lazarus.  That is adopted from conspiracy theorists that also state that aliens are living amongst us.  Google Archarya S.
-- Consig

Wrong again Consig, the myth of El-Azarus predates your mythos by millenia and I know nothing of this alien conspiracy crap you mention.

I do not believe what he said concerning Lazarus as he mentions it as he claims it is an ealrier Egyptian myth and as we both know that the Egyptians, the Alexandrains in particular are to blame for much of the mistranslations of the biblical texts.
-- G

Again, Egyptian mythology predates Jewish mythology by millenia. What translations are you talking about?

I also notice that the maker of that comment believes everything he reads and disbelieves the Bible instead of thinking that the other books might be lying.
-- G

I believe no mythology! What the hell do you think the word atheist means anyway?
My statement that your mythology is a rip-off of more ancient mythology does not mean I believe the older mythology. Go back to logic class!

I think you got “Jesusâ€? and “Christâ€? mixed up.  “Jesusâ€? is a latinized form of “Yeshuaâ€?, it was a name back then.  “Christâ€? is a bastardized version of “Kristosâ€? a Greek word meaning savior.
-- SS

Hi SS, sorry you’re the one who has it backwards. Christ means “Anointed One” which comes from the Greek word for “Messiah”.

The name Jesus comes from more Jewish folklore (read Fairy Tales). The archetypal Jewish hero was Joshua (the successor of Moses) otherwise known as Yeshua ben Nun (‘Jesus of the fish’). Since the name Jesus (Yeshua or Yeshu in Hebrew, Ioshu in Greek, source of the English spelling) originally was a title (meaning ‘saviour’, derived from ‘Yahweh Saves’) probably every band in the Jewish resistance had its own hero figure sporting this moniker, among others.

I think it may be more appropriate to say ‘A’ Jesus existed at that time, rather than ‘THE’ Jesus. Especially as much proof for him in records of the time have been shown to be fakes added in when copies have been made of the original documents
-- Metalhead

Correct Metalhead, Josephus mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty-eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4). The surfeit of early Jesuses includes…

Jesus ben Sirach This Jesus was reputedly the author of the Book of Sirach (aka ‘Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach’), part of Old Testament Apocrypha. Ben Sirach, writing in Greek about 180 BC, brought together Jewish ‘wisdom’ and Homeric-style heroes.

Jesus ben Pandira A wonder-worker during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus (106-79 BC), one of the most ruthless of the Maccabean kings. Imprudently, this Jesus launched into a career of end-time prophesy and agitation which upset the king. He met his own premature end-time by being hung on a tree – and on the eve of a Passover. Scholars have speculated this Jesus founded the Essene sect.

Jesus ben Ananias Beginning in 62AD, this Jesus had caused disquiet in Jerusalem with a non-stop doom-laden mantra of ‘Woe to the city’. He prophesied rather vaguely:

“A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against the whole people.”
(Josephus, Wars 6:3)

Arrested and flogged by the Romans, he was released as nothing more dangerous than a mad man. He died during the siege of Jerusalem from a rock hurled by a Roman catapult.

Jesus ben Saphat In the insurrection of 68AD that wrought havoc in Galilee, this Jesus had led the rebels in Tiberias. When the city was about to fall to Vespasian’s legionaries he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee.

Jesus ben Gamala During 68/69 AD this Jesus was a leader of the ‘peace party’ in the civil war wrecking Judaea. From the walls of Jerusalem he had remonstrated with the besieging Idumeans (led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’). It did him no good. When the Idumeans breached the walls he was put to death and his body thrown to the dogs and carrion birds.

Jesus ben Thebuth A priest who, in the final capitulation of the upper city in 69AD, saved his own skin by surrendering the treasures of the Temple, which included two holy candlesticks, goblets of pure gold, sacred curtains and robes of the high priests. The booty figured prominently in the Triumph held for Vespasian and his son Titus.

Was there a crucified Jesus?

Certainly. Jesus ben Stada was a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century. He met his end in the town of Lydda (twenty five miles from Jerusalem) at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew. And given the scale that Roman retribution could reach – at the height of the siege of Jerusalem the Romans were crucifying upwards of five hundred captives a day before the city walls – dead heroes called Jesus would (quite literally) have been thick on the ground. Not one merits a full-stop in the great universal history.

And just as you religoids pick and choose the nonsense you wish to believe, you have not responded to any of the points I’ve made. Where is the evidence for this invisible god of yours? Why is there nothing in the Bible that demonstrates a higher intelligence? If you can’t answer, I’ll do it for you. This nonsense was invented/copied by tiny minds just like yours.

Spocko:

I don’t know why I find it so entertaining either. That said, your logic that because this myth of “El-azarus” predates Christianity that the latter is a copycat is hardly compelling.  The problem is that it only establishes that which everybody knew, and which nobody has taken issue with, namely that there was an Egyptian mythology.

The bigger problem, the one that was incredibly obvious in discussing this with the backers of a Horus=Jesus connection, is the amazing lack of source documentation for such claims.  Most read websites and books that provide no documentation and spew what they read as fact. 

Since I’m sure you are unlike those that I have previously discussed this with, I have no doubt that you will again post to back up your claims with convincing evidence.  I’m sure that you will cite me the original document that you rely upon to make the claim that there exists 1) A story of Horus raisng “El-azarus” and 2) A point by point comparison of the stories such that we can conclude from a preponderance of the evidence that it is more likely than not that one is a copy of the other. 

No website links.  If you claim it as truth then it’s important enough for us to have your presentation and not have to read through someone else’s boring work.  I believe you can cut through the crap for us.  Besides, I am but a simple ol’ theist, and needs me a guide through the intellectual bramble so I don’t get lost.

I also wanted to address another point.  Your last quote did not have a citation.  Please provide that.  In addition, I’m not able to discern from the post the date of crucifixion of this individual.  Nor am I one hundred percent (100%) sure that you believe this individual is the Jesus upon which the Gospels and Christianity are based.  If you could clear these matters up, I would be most appreciative.

siggy boy…

...your logic that because this myth of “El-azarus� predates Christianity that the latter is a copycat is hardly compelling.

A feeble attempt at a straw man argument there bucko. Read me again. I was very specifically talking about the similarities of that one story. I’m comparing Lazarus to El-Azarus (and only because G-boy brought it up). Do not misrepresent my words. I did not make the comparison you claim I did.

Tales of Messiahs healing and reviving the dead are far more ancient than this mythos you cling to. I really don’t care if you don’t see the connections between the resurrection of Osiris and the zombification of Lazarus. Didn’t Nunyabiz spank you enough on that subject?

The bigger problem, the one that was incredibly obvious in discussing this with the backers of a Horus=Jesus connection, is the amazing lack of source documentation for such claims.

There ya go blabberin’ about “source documentation” again. When you finally work your way back to the “original source” what are you gonna ask him, huh? Where’s your SOURCE DOCUMENTATION!? How about your sourcedoc eh? What do you have? The Bible? Gibberish written by anons and mythical men! Use your own mind son.

I also wanted to address another point. Your last quote did not have a citation. Please provide that.

No. Who cares who said it. Let’s just pretend I said it. Get off of the authority bullshit man - evaluate content - the quote sounds logical to me. Don’t think in such black and white terms. I’d give it a 90% chance of being truth.

In addition, I’m not able to discern from the post the date of crucifixion of this individual.  Nor am I one hundred percent (100%) sure that you believe this individual is the Jesus upon which the Gospels and Christianity are based.  If you could clear these matters up, I would be most appreciative.

My study of the past leads ME to conclude that the Jesus mythos is based on a vast number of prior mythologies. I’m completely open to evaluate any evidence to the contrary. Do you have something new?

And BTW…
Once again MY questions are ignored and I’m expected to teach simple ol’ sig all of history.

Spocko:

There ya go blabberin’ about “source documentation� again.

I know, I know.  Shame on me for always wanting to look at the original text.  The problem I consistently have is that nobody can refer me to that text.  That problem remains.  I get the impression that there is a pattern of evasion when it comes to substantiating such claims with anything other than: “I’ve read X amount on the subject, am smarter than you, my daddy can beat up your daddy and oh yeah, what about the Bible?”

Frankly, I don’t care how much anybody has read, how smart they are, or who their daddy is.  As to the Bible, I don’t believe I’ve ever proffered the Bible to you, or anybody here for that matter, as a history book.  I’m not now.  So the Bible is really irrelevant as far as accuracy. It is only relevant to the extent that it must be referred to for comparison purposes.

. Get off of the authority bullshit man - evaluate content - the quote sounds logical to me.

I’ve heard similar statements from creationsts.  That aside, I would have thought that it would be self-evident why I want to know the site from which you are cutting and pasting. 

If it is not, here is why.  First, if you have reproduced copyrighted material without proper citation you may have violated copyright law, which would somewhat discredit you as the poster.  Second, I would like to read the full article to see if there are any errors in it that I can ferret out.  Third, I would like to research the other works the author has wrote to find out if the guy is talking out of his ass or not. Fourth, I wanted to research the author’s credentials.  As with any discussion, when someone comes to the table as an expert on the subject they possess more credibility on the subject than the average lay person, at least initially.  With that in mind, I wanted to go after his credentials. 

The statement may seem logical to you, but it does not to me based on some other facts.  That is why I asked the follow up questions that I did.  I want to make sure that you are committed to a position before I knock it down. 

My study of the past leads ME to conclude that the Jesus mythos is based on a vast number of prior mythologies. I’m completely open to evaluate any evidence to the contrary.

That is fine.  I have no quibble with your general conclusion.  Nor do I wish to make the case for Christianity.  However, when you proffer specific examples that compare Horus to Jesus, I simply insist that they not be confabulations of the mind.

spaz:

The sources we are talking about are Egyptian and Jewish mythology. If you are incapable of researching the original subject on your own don’t ask me for help. What? You’ve never heard of Josephus? Must everything be spoon fed to you by some “authority”. Head to the library man!

I often cut and paste quotes that I agree with. I’ll give credit when I feel like it. What do you think this is? The Scientific American? You think I’m getting paid for this shit? Any teenage vidiot could easily do a search to find where I snag my quotes if they were so inclined.

Again I suggest If you want to research the authors of Egyptian mythology or Josephus then visit your local library now!

The statement may seem logical to you, but it does not to me based on some other facts.

If you’re here to talk, buddyboy, then let’s hear about those little old facts of yours.

I want to make sure that you are committed to a position before I knock it down.

What an arrogant twit you are. My position is always pliable based on current information. I’m still waiting for you to say anything substantial.

Nor do I wish to make the case for Christianity. 

Chickenshit.

However, when you proffer specific examples that compare Horus to Jesus, I simply insist that they not be confabulations of the mind.

Mythology/religion is fabrication not confabulation. Anyone who takes the time to read both stories will see the similarities for themselves. Get off it man. I’ve never seen a mind so closed!

Spocko, much as I hate to say it, Consi’s the one looking good in this argument.  You’re refusing to answer any of his detailed questions (like “exactly where did you get this claim?") with weaselly retorts like “the sources are Egyptian and Jewish mythology.” If a Creationist said “the young earth is proven in scientific journals,” wouldn’t you spank his butt from here to Kenya if he refused to cite jounal, article, author, and line?

In addition, you’ve taken to making personal jabs instead of answering, which Consi has refrained from doing.  And did you really use the rhetorical equivalent of “I know you are but what am I?” ???

Come on, I know you can do better than this! You’re letting down the team, bro. 

Sorry GM but there’s not much more to say.
The story of Osiris is part of Egyptian mythology, I make no claims. It is easy for anyone to research the original translations of the heiroglyphics and see for themselves. I don’t know what more anyone wants.

These religoids brought up this nonsense about the fictional character Jesus raising the dead. My point is that it’s is not an original story. Nothing in the Bible is original, it is plagiarism.

I’m sick of Consig because he doesn’t bother to answer any questions that I present. He just blathers on whenever anyone mentions the similarities between his mythology and older mythology. Nunya has gone through this subject with him in detail and I’m not going to rehash it.

If Consig expects me to respect anything he says then he’s going to have to learn how give as well as take. When someone insults me I strike back.

To me, this is a lot of rambling about a minor point, anyone who studies ancient mythology can plainly see where the Bible copies from older religions. And, certainly, the Egyptian fable is not the only source of the Bible’s transgression. I could list hundreds of “gods” that are the roots to the evolution of the xtian mythos.

Where are the responses to my questions?

Spocko, I admire the vindiction in your beliefs. I am one of those Christians who feel the line between rebelion and curiosity is wider than some others might say it is. You have apprently done a lot of research on many historical and theological subjects. You appear to be a well educated and diverse individual, thank on all you for sharing your knowledge on these subjects. Infact, I would like to thank everyone on this site for the hard work they put into informing us on such a large variety of philosophies and theologies.

I will try to do the same now and keep it as close as I can to the way Les has been instructing me on his site’s protocol.
A lot of the following is from outside of the Bible, but until I am corrected by a worthy source I believe all of it to be true.

By my understanding on sacred texts there is a lot of societies that are opposed to the Holy Scripture.
One of these evil societies are often called Alexandrians, or something like that. They are a chief opponent to The Word as they serve the evil purpose of keeping us doomed to Hell. Alexandria is a city located in Egypt that has close ties to Rome,

Egypt is opposed to the Torah and the Gospel Scriptures. Long ago Egypt had enslaved a tribe of people called the Hebrew, who by my understanding have a direct lineage with the original family of all humanity. During their escape from the Egyptians, The God of the Hebrews sent plagues to Egypt and caused the destruction of their once wealthy nation. The God of the Hebrews as it turns out is the Almighty God of Heaven and the Creater of everything. He is also The Father of the Angels, but His oldest angel, Satan, long before this had rebeled against Him and took with him, to the earth, many other angels. On the earth these fallen angels, also called devils, enjoyed their great power and ruled over us, calling themselves gods and forced us to worship them. I have read outside of the Bible that The God of the Hebrews turned the Egyptian gods against their own country of worshippers and these were the much heard of plagues. I will now continue with refering to the God of the Hebrews as God.
God and His Angels and the Fallen Angels are very hard for us to understand and even when they do things that should be obvious we still have a hard time comprehending them. Us being of the materialistic world and them being of the spiritual ultra-cosmic and far beyond us. We are further removed from the Presence of them by an evil source of destruction called Sin. Sin was first introduced to us by Satan in one of his many evil tricks, Satan is a master of Sin and uses it to destroy us, because he hates us very much. Sin is very attractive to us and this angers God, many times has He come close to destroying us entirely, but as he loves all of His creations He continues to allow us to persevere.
The world will never be free of Satans evil curse of Sin and so God will finally destroy it once and for all, only to recreate it again safe from Satan. Before He does that He has decided to give us all a chance to be free. Our life force, concience and personel Identity is also a spiritual being, refered to as our soul. Our Soul is given to us by God and is ours alone. Our body is a vessel for our soul and is supposed to be immortal as our soul is, but Sin kills the body and as we are under the influence of Satan’s evil curse we are as guilty of Sin as he is. Satan is doomed to a terrible place refered to as Hell and he is using His nasty Sin to take as many of us there as he can.
Because of Sin we are held back from Heaven which is the perfect home of the one perfect being, because Sin corrupts even our soul and God will not allow the corrupted soul of a sinner in His divine presence. My belief on this, is that Heaven is above the earth and Hell is below it. When we die our soul is released from our body and will fall, descend, as we are not strong enough on our own to lift it upwards, ascend. Ascension takes the help of a divine being and as Heaven is the personel property of God, it takes His allowance for that to happen. As said before He will not let a dirty soul in His presence or His Heaven. The only way for us to achieve ascension is to be forgiven by Him. At one time the only people, as far as I know, who he forgave were certain Hebrew who obeyed the Torah. The ways to be forgiven were told by Him to His chosen high priest in the way of prophecy, who would inform the other Hebrews of this. He also told His high priest that he would send a messiah to the earth to offer forgiveness to everyone on the earth. Prophecy is an action that takes place on earth under divine giudance, The Messiah of God would be recognized by many prophecies.

From the lineage of the Hebrews came The Messiah of God, Jesus Christ. He fulfilleds all said prophecies and He is the mannifestion of the God in Heaven on earth. While here He taught us how to recognize evil in it’s true form and how to overcome it. His teachings, called the Gospel are His Words preserved for all these centuries as they are protected by Him and indesctructable, though Satan tries all he can to keep us from them. Jesus had many followers and amongst them where His disciples. I know of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John these are refered to as His disciples and were charged with the duty of scribing the Gospel while Jesus preached it, with certain additions such as letters to the Romans and John’s sermons these became the New Testament. They also brought to Jesus manuscripts of the Torah (and other books too, maybe?) as told by the prophecy.  Jesus looked through and told them what was right, those became the Old Testament of the Bible. These books altogether make up the Holy Bible and Jesus blessed them with the Gospel and they are forever protected by Him.

Trying to distort the Word of God are the followers of the fallen angels, people still worship them even today. Thier tricks include changing the texts of ancient religions such as the Egyptian’s to discredit the Gospel, and making up false additions to it, such as the Apocrypha. These are introduced to the Bible it seems when it is translated into other languages. Ever heard of The Satanic Church Alexandrian tradition?
If Satan suceeded at keeping the Gospel from reaching an individual it is that individual’s choice. Always the Name of Jesus and the belief in His good manners will save a soul from Hell. The power of the Gospel is in the belief of the Gospel, Satan can not stop a person from believing, he merely using Sin and all of his dirty tricks to distract us from it.
To be alive is to be cursed by Sin, a power much stronger than ourselves. Satan brought Sin into this world and it is because of Sin that we are here right now, doomed to Hell on a dying planet. To ascend into Heaven we must be willing to overcome it and use His Gospel to do that.

I do not know where or when prayer was first learned to us in history. Prayer is very dangerous for us to do and we should never pray to anything or anybody, but God. Prayer is when we open the deepest parts of our mind to a being and give our lives and devotion, all that we have to offer to that being. Jesus allows us to pray to and have contact with God, Jesus is God’s intermediary for us. Never pray to anybody but Jesus or it could mean serious trouble.
As has been told in Spocko’s earlier posts, there are are many who call themselves Jesus, for their own vile purposes, do not pray to them. To find the right Jesus reach Him through His Gospel, it does not actually require a Bible to do that, as the Gospel itself is The Spirit of the Bible. You might not contact Jesus the first time you try praying to Him, but He will know when you try, He is God Almighty and Satan fears Him. The strengthening of an immortal soul takes things like virtue and patience, and understanding and tolerance.

Spocko:

I had hoped that it should be readily apparent that there is fairly wide gap in theology between myself and others that visit the site, including Gijnabar. 

You said:

I make no claims.

yet you then say

My point is that it’s is not an original story. Nothing in the Bible is original, it is plagiarism.

That is a claim.  You are making claims. That is why I requested some sort of documentation to support your specific claim.

What an arrogant twit you are.

I’ll admit that you are likely right about the arrogant portion of the statement.  I’ve made it a point when posting here to be extremely careful.  My credibility when I post here is important.  For that reason, I don’t go out on limbs, and I try not to make statements that I will have to retract.  It is for those reasons that you don’t see me challenging your general premise that the Jesus is based on “a vast number of prior mythologies.” I do not believe that, but as a general premise, I can’t knock that down convincingly. I can with Horus, so, I do what I can.

I’m sorry that you felt insulted Spocko.  I generally respect your posting, and love your cutting humor.  It’s hysterical stuff.  Having said that, I respectfully submit to you that this discussion is ending the same way the one I had with Nunya ended, without any documentation to support the claims being made.

on and on and on and on it drones.. I tell ya. Im with Spocko on Neil 3:1 here.. but I think modification is in order. “Let not theists waste on religion what can be used to populate the stars.” In conjunction with: Qoayn 1:1 “Abort Polititians before they happen.” We could have been halfway across the galaxy by now after that post. I admire Gij’s flare. If it was a bit more concise,to the point and educated on the topic/methods of conversion. I would have converted, accepted all that is devine and been saved. Now instead I’m still
stuck on this rock as an immoral heathen with absoloutly no salvation. I think I’m even more retarded than I was willing to admit before. It’s not a complete loss though, It’s always good to know that I am never gonna get off this rock. So please dont do anything rash like kill yourself and go talk to god about it Gij.

Hi Gijnabar,

Thanks for putting some effort into your last post, you no longer appear to be just a troll. We are annoyed by them every once in a while.

As for my “beliefs”, they are simple; religion is superstition, xtianity is derived from older mythology, truth has evidence to support it, faith is the surrender of reason and the end of the honest search for truth.

I have no belief in any god I’ve ever heard of but I allow the possibility of some type of god to exist (an extremely slim possibility by my experience). That makes me both atheist and agnostic - no belief, no absolute knowledge. I have no illusions that this makes me superior in any way although I find it the only logical position to assume. I am human and can get pissed off very easily. I rarely hold back that anger when I come up against a brick wall or a snotty attitude. Not to say that I’m not an asshole myself - just ask Mrs Spocko!

Know this: I was previously a, baptized, born again, xtian who went to church several times a week. I’ve read the Bible in detail, I know its many failings well. My parents were Baptists so I was indoctrinated into that particular cult. I can see, now, how the droning of the pastor and the rhythm of his speech created a type of mass hypnosis that prompts the young and naive to stand, head down that isle to the baptismal pool, and “accept the lord jesus christ as my personal lord and saviour”. Stay out of church dude! Lucky for me that I have the genetic make-up to shed this delusion once I reached maturity.

After a lifetime of lies, I trust no “experts” anymore. It is far better to become your own expert. I read the original text (at least as close as I can get to it) rather than rely on some middleman. Of course since I can not read ancient Egyptian or Hebrew I do depend on expert translators (hopefully multiple translators/translations) and I never ignore the “experts” opinions, you must read everything, absorb their ideas (even if you don’t agree) and then evaluate against the known facts or “original sources”. The best source of info for the Egyptian mythos comes from the Book of the Dead, the Pyrimad Texts, etc. The best source for Christian mythology is probably the Dead Sea scrolls. But you can not stop there or you will be deluded. You must also study Mithras, Kristna, Dionysus, Apollonius, Helios, and on and on! While you’re at it, study Logic and the evolution of story-telling and mythology itself. How did the things you believe come to be? Do not cop out and ignore what the 10s of thousands of years of story-telling may have been like before your alleged “Beginning”.

I’m starting to ramble so let me address your text…

By my understanding on sacred texts there is a lot of societies that are opposed to the Holy Scripture.

By “Holy Scriptures” I’ll assume you’re talking about the xtian mythos. Yes, since there are thousands of different religious cults around the world, I would agree there are probably many folks opposed to your collection of fables.

One of these evil societies are often called Alexandrians, or something like that. They are a chief opponent to The Word as they serve the evil purpose of keeping us doomed to Hell. Alexandria is a city located in Egypt that has close ties to Rome,

Sorry but I refuse to group together the people of a city and call them all evil. That sounds like some shit that evil ol’ bastard Yahweh would pull!
Tell ya what; go read about Hypatia then we’ll talk more about Alexandria.

Long ago Egypt had enslaved a tribe of people called the Hebrew

The archeological record opposes this statement. There is also no evidence of this in the written history of Egypt. Seems strange to me. Is it easy for you to believe something without proof?

who by my understanding have a direct lineage with the original family of all humanity.

Not likely - our DNA shows evidence that our roots come from much further south.

During their escape from the Egyptians ... I will now continue with refering to the God of the Hebrews as God.

Sorry but I see no substantiation for any of this story at all. How can I differentiate this tale from that of, let’s say, Odin? Why is it any more believable?

Satan ... Messiah of God would be recognized by many prophecies.

I suppose you could elaborate on these “prophecies”?

From the lineage of the Hebrews came The Messiah of God, Jesus Christ. He fulfilleds all said prophecies and He is the mannifestion of the God in Heaven on earth. While here He taught us how to recognize evil in it’s true form and how to overcome it. His teachings, called the Gospel are His Words preserved for all these centuries as they are protected by Him and indesctructable, though Satan tries all he can to keep us from them. Jesus had many followers and amongst them where His disciples.

If only you knew how many “suns of god” shoveled that same story!

I know of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ...

Don’t you wonder why “their” books in the Bible weren’t written by them?

and were charged with the duty of scribing the Gospel while Jesus preached it, with certain additions such as letters to the Romans and John’s sermons these became the New Testament. They also brought to Jesus manuscripts of the Torah (and other books too, maybe?) as told by the prophecy.  Jesus looked through and told them what was right, those became the Old Testament of the Bible. These books altogether make up the Holy Bible and Jesus blessed them with the Gospel and they are forever protected by Him.

Whoa there bucko! This is not how the Bible was put together at all. Go do some reading about Constantine and his little Conclave of Holy Book Publishers®. While you’re learning about that, wonder what was left out and why.

Trying to distort the Word of God are the followers of the fallen angels, people still worship them even today. Thier tricks include changing the texts of ancient religions such as the Egyptian’s to discredit the Gospel, and making up false additions to it, such as the Apocrypha. These are introduced to the Bible it seems when it is translated into other languages.

Folks worship all kinds of stuff don’t they? One need not bother looking at trick or add-ons, the Bible leaves plenty to be desired in its own right.

Ever heard of The Satanic Church Alexandrian tradition?

Man, I’ve seen many religions but I’ve seen not one god, devil, angel, ghost, etc. I’ve read many so-called Holy texts but have seen not one example of higher intelligence or knowledge of science yet to be discovered. Not one scrap of any these texts appears to be the inspired word of any god (or demon if you prefer).

...sin sin sin…

Sheesh! Get a grip! I have no gods and commit no “sins”, it’s not very hard to do and comes natural to most folks. Something tells me that you are an ex-Satanist who is on a major guilt trip. That’s freaky dude! Forgive yourself and move on, you were probably just young and stupid right? I know I’ve believed in silly things before.

...prayer…

Sorry just more superstition. I’m sure glad the US government spends millions of our tax dollars to study this prayer stuff!

sig…

That is a claim.  You are making claims. That is why I requested some sort of documentation to support your specific claim.

Oh, that claim! That’s a fact, not my claim. Documentation on all prior gods is easily obtained from your local library. What more do you want? I’m sure you can easily search for a list of books on Josephus or Egyptian mythology or the history of Apollonius or any of the other “saviour gods”. I’m not going to do your homework for you. Once you have read the documentation and do not see the evolution of the xtian mythos then I’m done with you and will consider you blind or purposely closed-minded. And I would suggest you start from “Jesus’” time and work backwards instead of starting with the Egyptians.

It is for those reasons that you don’t see me challenging your general premise that the Jesus is based on “a vast number of prior mythologies.� I do not believe that, but as a general premise, I can’t knock that down convincingly.

I’ve read those mythologies and see the evolution, if you have not read then you can’t very well speak on the subject can you?

I can with Horus, so, I do what I can.

I have not seen you do this. The stories of most of the gods I’ve heard of are very similar. I would attribute this to the fact that all of the originators of these fables lived on this same planet, experienced the same weather patterns, saw the same “wanderers” in the sky, saw the same “death and rebirth” cycle of the sun each year, learned to think, speak, write, and create stories that have evolved over the millenia.

I’m sorry that you felt insulted Spocko.  I generally respect your posting, and love your cutting humor.  It’s hysterical stuff.  Having said that, I respectfully submit to you that this discussion is ending the same way the one I had with Nunya ended, without any documentation to support the claims being made.

Actually I’m not really insulted, but I have yet to see anyone attempt to answer my questions. You cling to the Horus/Jesus argument but that’s like looking at fossils of microbacteria and comparing them to those of the T-Rex, or comparing the Wright Flyer to the Space Shuttle and insisting there’s no connection between the two. You must look at the “transition fossils” and work your way back.

Damn, gotta head back to work…

Shame on me for always wanting to look at the original text.  The problem I consistently have is that nobody can refer me to that text.

So going by the context of this statement then since there is not one single fucking word, not a single Yea Verily, not even a period that is “original text” about the “Bible” then Im glad we have debunked the pile of shit for you.  Great so we can just omit the obligatory “The Bible says” from this date forward.

As for the El-Azar-us myth which you refuse to acknowledge there is every bit as much text stating this as there is of your alleged “Jesus raises Lazarus” fable, which BTW is precisely what BOTH are, a Fable, a fairytale, neither are factual accounts of anything. The bronze age Bedouins of which you so cavalierly regard as spewing nothing but pure divine text, so divine that it can actually travel as Oral Tradition from tribe to tribe, from land to land, from language to language, translated from Greek to transliterated to Latin to English after 1000+ years and yet not misquote or misinterpret a single fable of which they stole from the original PAGAN, Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian myths. These brilliant scholars from which you base your entire life around grouped mystic, magic, supernatural, and miracle together; therefore, to understand what they meant, modern researchers must also construct some interpretive framework which likewise accounts for, as a group, mystic, magic, supernatural, and miracle, as they are all exactly the same.

Now the “Jesus Myth” of Lazarus Vs the Egyptian Myth of El-Azur-us.  Lets compare shall we?

In these 2 stories, Osiris has two sisters - so does Lazarus, references to death as a state of sleep and resurrection as a waking up from that sleep, Osiris, like Lazarus, was dead for four days, references to the wailing sisters, references to the stench (or absence of) the corpse, the tombs were opened before the resurrection, references to the freeing of the bondage of the corpse.

The Egyptian myth about the death of the god Osiris and his resurrection of by Horus. Osiris has two sisters, Isis and Nephthys.(Note: Horus is the son of Isis-Meri by virgin birth which you also refuse to acknowledge) In the legend Osiris lies dead at Heliopolis. Heliopolis was the Greek name for the Egyptian burial ground. This necropolis is known by various names in Egyptian, one of them is “House of Anu�. The Semitic/Hebrew form of this would be “Beth-anu� which sounds very close to Bethany for those of not suffering from the delusion of Christianity.
These similarities are simply to numerous for the two myths to be unrelated to one another. The Egyptian myth precedes John’s gospel by about 2,500 years. How could a myth that old influence John’s gospel? The answer is simple, the myth may be old but it was still very much alive in the socio-religious environment of first century Egypt. Just as Christian myths, already two thousand years old, are still alive today in the fundamentalist socio-religious culture; the Egyptian myth of Osiris remain basically unchanged even unto the first century CE. Upon conversion into Christianity, the Egyptians took their mythological beliefs-only slightly altered along with them.
These “Converted Egyptians” were known as the “Copts” btw the very first Christian church was IN Egypt, and if not for the “Alexandrians” which persuaded Constantine and the Council of Nicea that Arianism was a dangerous heresy, and led the Council to affirm what has become the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (which BTW is an Egyptian concept), then today the fairytale, the Mythology of Christianity would be entirely different.  So to try to distance Christianity from Egyptian mythology merely shows your ignorance on the subject. Egypt, namely Alexandria was the very center of Christian theology (mythology).

John :11 Jesus went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.�
Utterance 670 O Osiris the King, you have gone, but you will return; you have slept but you will awake; you have died but you will live.

John :17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus has already been in the tomb for four days.
Utterance 670 Osiris speaks to Horus, for he has removed the evil which was on the king on his fourth day.

John :33 When Jesus saw her (Mary) weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping he was deeply moved…
Utterance 670 they come to Osiris the King at the sound of the weeping of Isis-Meri, at the cry of Nephthys, at the wailing of these two spirits.

38 Jesus...came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance.
John :39 “Take away the stone,� he said. “But, Lord,� said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.�
Utterance 665A The tomb is opened for you, the doors of the tomb chamber are thrown open for you.
Utterance 412 O flesh of the king, do not decay, do not rot, do not smell unpleasant.

John :43… Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.â€?
John :44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face (otherwise known as “Mummified"). Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.â€?
Utterance 620 I am Horus, O Osiris the King, I will not let you suffer. Go forth, wake up.
Utterance 703 O King, live, for you are not dead. Horus will come to you that he may cut your cords and throw off your bonds; Horus has removed your hindrance.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/pyt/

Oh hell no these myths are nothing alike are they?  DOH!
This 2 myths are identical because the Christian myth without any question came directly from the much older Egyptian mythology and they became kind of an amalgam during the first century CE in Alexandria (between 60-68CE) when Egyptians become “Christianized” these “Coptic Christians” merely slightly altered their myths, one being Luke 16:19-31 tells of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus who both died; the rich man went to hell and Lazarus appeared at “Abraham’s side”. The rich man pleaded with Abraham to raise Lazarus from the dead so that he can warn his living brothers about the existence of hell and to make them change their ways. Abraham refused the request saying something like “even if Lazarus is raised from the dead they will not believe.” This, in fact, forms the moral of the story. In John’s miracle the moral had become “even after Lazarus was raised from the dead, the Jews did not believeâ€?.

This parable itself is not even original as it is also a retelling of an older Egyptian tale involving torment for the rich and comfort for the poor, called the “Setna Story” the hero of the tale looks into the realm of the dead and there see (or learns) how, in accordance with a divine judgment, the pompous furnishings of a rich but unjust man’s tomb are assigned to a poor but just man, who is buried in simple fashion; the latter achieves happiness next to Osiris, while the rich man suffers the torments of hell.”
this all was blended with the Egyptian myth of “El-Osiris” Semitic (El-Azur) the Romans added the “Us” to signify being male, (El-Azur-us), the name Lazarus came from the Semitic translation of El-Osiris and the parable in Luke was written after the Coptic Christians retelling of their ancient myth of Horus raising El-Osiris into Jesus raising Lazarus.

Now to further tie in Egyptian mythology to Christian mythology.
The central figure of the ancient Egyptian Religion was Osiris, and the chief fundamentals of his cult were the belief in his divinity, death, resurrection, and absolute control of the destinies of the bodies and souls of men. The central point of each Osirian’s Religion was his hope of resurrection in a transformed body and of immortality, which could only be realized by him through the death and resurrection of Osiris, this sounding familiar at all?
Early in Egyptian history it was a religious custom to bury the dead kings in the image of Osiris. Later the upper classes and eventually the common masses were given an Osirian burial. The custom reflects the Egyptians quest to follow in his resurrection.

Osirianised coffins also display a shepherd’s staff in the left hand, a distinctly Christian symbol. (Jesus described himself as the “Good Shepherd” of the human flock. Portraits of Christ show him holding the shepherd’s staff.) The shepherd’s staff was depicted in the hands of Osiris in Egyptian artwork. In literature his epithets sa and Asar-sa mean “shepherd” and “Osiris the shepherd.”
Christians can deny all this as much as they like but they are fooling no one but themselves.
Jesus is without any question at all just a Jewish version of a Sun God, the Bible itself can not get any clearer in its Sun symbolism & Astrological overtones as the story follows the Zodiac perfectly.

One has to be a blind fool to not see this.

I am so staying out of this…

Nunya:

Glad to see that you’ve come to the table with something to chew on. Unfortunately for me, I will have to wait to address this until the weekend or possible early next week depending on when I get some free time.

I would like to comment on some of the posts that slam the book of my much beloved saviour, starting with the first one,

“An atheist has no reason to oppose murderâ€? is one of the religious bigot’s favorite canards. Dostoevsky’s dictum that “without God, anything is permittedâ€? is popular among superstitious know-nothings who know nothing about atheism except that they hate it and its adherents. Without an all-powerful, celestial lawgiver to dispense reward and punishments, they argue, there’s no reason to be good. Why not just kill that old lady for her money, or for no reason at all, and simply hide the body?

As a Christian, I cannot agree that being an athiest makes one not oppose murder, there are such sayings to back this up such as ‘prison is not a good place’ and ‘do not bite the hand that feeds’. I might be missing a few out there though, can someone help me?

By the term ‘religious bigot’ I believe Les means bigots that are religious as opposed to meaning that all people who are religious are bigots, or is this an example of that irony Les speeks of in a later post? Anyways nobodies perfect, are you unable to forgive your fellow man for their shortcomings?

“without God, anything is permittedâ€?  Ivan’s quote from Dostoevsky’s novel The Brothers Karamazov, I wish I could write with the such zeal as that man did, 124 years after his death and he’s still raising hairs.

Superstition is not allowed by the gospel and is not a trait of christianity, am I wrong?

Knowing nothing about atheism? I admit knowing nothing about it, as I have never to the best of my knowledge been an athiest, inform away.

I don’t hate anybody, forgiveness is a must in the Christian faith, though I do err at times please forgive.

As for the last two sentences, come on nobodies perfect tell the truth. Who’s moral, who’s immoral? Everybody is what they percieve to be right at the time, or am I wrong? Certainly we know that you, being a civilized person living a comfortable, meaningful life with a future, are not going to go out and kill anyone and throw all that away, for no good reason. Will you admit that there are some though who do? Do you believe that the fear of Hell has stopped many a crime? Do you realize that a person living by the word of the gospel is not capable of murder, theft or even premarital sex, I mean living by the word of the gospel in it’s truest content?

Thinking about the last sentence in the quote above realy got me upset and caused me to write the following statements.
It is apparent that Satan the master of lies is going to always be able to trick at least some christians into commiting a sin, and that is bad enough, but those kinds of sins? You can take them lightly? Do you have any idea how terrifying it is to a Christian to to take such a comment serious?
One of Jesus’ philosophies was that you can not have your reward both on Earth and in Heaven. This means that those who live wastefully and knowingly commit sins do not go to Heaven, without repentance. A christian believes he will face Jesus on judgement day, Jesus who died on the cross for that particular person’s sins. To accept salvation is to repent for your sins.
I am a Christian now, and sin for me is unthinkable, a Christian believes in an afterlife and that to not be in eternal punishment one needs to repent for all sins. Upon doing that a Christian never wants to sin again. Believe me repentance is not fun in the least, but better to be punished on Earth than in Hell is a Christian’s belief.
To truly commit yourself to Christianity and to believe in Jesus, I mean to really believe in Jesus, believeth in Jesus and still knowingly commit such a sin is calling Jesus a liar. Who is to say how many sins or what kind of sin a Christian can commit and still be forgiven, only Jesus. There are some sins that are unforgiveable as according to the gospel, to accept the gospel in prayer with Him is to change your life, all true God fearing Christians believe this. What do you think, such a sinner is going to tell the jury he is not afraid of the electric chair because he is going to have everlasting life in Heaven?
Does anyone realy believe a gospel abiding Christian is capable of a cold blooded murder? I mean a real one, not someone who says he loves Jesus just to get people to trust him, but one that really truly believes that if he does it he will lose his eternal soul to the devil. Such a Christian is more scared of commiting murder than being murdered.

Basil,
I know you posted this some time back, but seeing as how no one answered the latter part of it, I thought I would give it a try.

Is there any way to paste paste some thing here ?
Jesus will forgive murderers for there sins,
but he wont forgive me for not “believing�.
seems like kinda a contradiction.

The reason for this, by my experience is that you don’t question authority. To strengthen your soul you must find the truth; that we are already sinners, sin keeps you from ascending into Heaven once released from the body and that only by being forgiven by God can a soul be clean of sin. He can clean any soul but first that sinner must come to repentance. If you are wondering about why a worse sinner can be forgiven just as a lesser sinner can, well that’s a sin. God in Heaven is so great and pure that even the slighest sin cannot be in his presence. Jesus’ gospel tells us how to not sin and as you said it is by Him that we are forgiven.
I do know the worse a sin you commit the harder it is to repent. So if you desire salvation do not commit murder, to think that you can commit sins because you know Jesus will forgive you is to call Him a liar, a terrible, unholy sin in itself. You call Him a liar when you do that because He said “Thou shall not kill.”.

Learning the divine teachings of Jesus’ can save you from Hell, but it is only the first step. To be saved one must repent, that is admit to Jesus you are a sinner.

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us in-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” II Peter 3:9

Spocko,

Hi SS, sorry you’re the one who has it backwards. Christ means “Anointed One� which comes from the Greek word for “Messiah�.

The name Jesus comes from more Jewish folklore (read Fairy Tales). The archetypal Jewish hero was Joshua (the successor of Moses) otherwise known as Yeshua ben Nun (‘Jesus of the fish’). Since the name Jesus (Yeshua or Yeshu in Hebrew, Ioshu in Greek, source of the English spelling) originally was a title (meaning ‘saviour’, derived from ‘Yahweh Saves’) probably every band in the Jewish resistance had its own hero figure sporting this moniker, among others.

I said:

“Jesusâ€? is a latinized form of “Yeshuaâ€?, it was a name back then.  “Christâ€? is a bastardized version of “Kristosâ€? a Greek word meaning savior.

I’m not disagreeing with you at all regarding the meaning of the terms.  I did make a mistake when I said “Jesus” was latinized (words ending in -us generally are and I just made a poor assumption as a means to cope with a poor memory).  Yeshua, though it means “YHWH saves” was a common name of the period, just like my name in the real world means merciful toilet.  As for “Kristos” meaning savior, what is the messiah but the savior of the Jews?  Though, I do grant that priests and prophets of the time were annointed and as such “messiah” applies to them as well.  I just noted that the surname “Christ” is clearly a post-hoc attribution, Yeshua was likely the birth name of many people, including one that, according to Justinius, was crucified during passover in about 30 CE for inciting a riot or rebellion or something.  I’ll have to look up the specifics if you want them.

P.S.  I made an error, I didn’t mean to say “Justinius”.  I meant to say “Flavius Josephus”.  I don’t know how “Josephus” turned into “Justinius” in my head but I didn’t mean Justinius.  His reports were likely to be forgeries.  Moreover, I grant that Josephus’ reports have been mistranslated to support the resurrection but a more recent translation of his paragraph on Jesus is perhaps more accurate to the original intent of the author:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.