elwed,

That wasn’t exactly the reward I thought you would get....

Les, you say you want discussion, answer those last few questions.
I freely give you information it has took me my entire life to come up with, my entire life. I want nothing more than to help anyone else who it can, because I believe it will be helpful to them in the afterlife.
When I say you was frightened when you took down one of my posts, why do you not put it back up?
It is realy different than the others?
I say it was to near to the truth and you couldn’t handle it, it was on the topic of the death of an atheist, you didn’t like that topic? Did it scare you? I bet it did, sorry.

Where is your side to this “discussion”?
Do you feel insulted? Can you not take some of what you give?

I really don’t want to offend anybody, it does me no good to do that. I am not the type that enjoys hurting others my dignity does not allow me to gain any pleasure from that.
Again, I am sorry if I really do hurt anyone with these comments I make.

P.S. Yes I too lay awake at night wondering what it all means..... Good morning

Brandi

I’m thinking Gijn has GOT to be pulling our leg. Knowledge is dangerous?! Don’t question authority?!
I taste bait. Or, I hope I do. Then I could at least get the joke. But those being real sentiments scares me to death.

Brandi said it scared her to death, very nice it’s supposed to scare you. Sometimes when you’re thinking about all the good knowledge has brought into our lives, think about how when it is used improperly it hurts us very bad. For examples try looking up Hiroshima, good going Einstein. You are never closer to the truth than when you admit you are wrong.

When I said ‘you don’t question authority’, if you took that as me describing your actions as they are or as a command for you to follow, to me mirrors your entire outlook on life. You think I am telling you not to question authority? That is out of character for someone like me. I went to prison at a young age, when the judge said, how do you plead guilty or not guilty, I said, I don’t know your the judge you tell me. I had my school convinced I had terets syndrome so I could yell out cuss words in the classroom. What are you laughing at, you never did anything wrong? You’re going to commit sins, it’s natural, better if you don’t though, but you’re going to. It’s coming to understand them and seeing how dangerous they are that we must do, as taught to us by Jesus in His Gospel. Coming to repentance is difficult and the more sins you commit the harder it is on you to repent, so do them sparingly, don’t throw yourself away, but enjoy life a little, Jesus loves you.

God came to us and walked among us, got to know us. What other god in history did that? If so then why did they not understand us, why did there ways not change? Look at how things changed after He did that. He is the only God in history that really understands the way we think and act. He does not want us to act out in rituals or do anything strange for Him. He just wants us to behave properly, with good manners and be prosperous, why is that so bad? He wants us to contemplate life and come to repentance for our sins and then He offers us everlasting life in Heaven. Repentance is to admit to Him that you are a sinner and to desire not to sin, no one is so strong they will no longer sin, I think, but that is why He forgives us, He understands us and loves us, because we are His children.

OB

He claims to be a Christian n00b… in my experience they get all inspired and overcome with the need to spread the Gospel like Gij does. Sort of like those fucking annoying ex-smokers who’ve “seen the light�? and make it their mission in life to “save�? those of us who figure we have every right to kill ourselves if we damn well please.

Lighten up a little, good point though ob, I did quit smoking now, as I repented it. Quit a lot of things I would have thought impossible.
It seems that when you repent doing something you get this power over it, nice.

Gij, you don’t seem to be listening to Les or anyone else here.  No one here is afraid of demons or hell because we don’t believe they exist.  You have not given us a single reason to believe they exist.  Are you afraid of Barney the Dinosaur?  Or of Shaitan, the devil of Islam?  If you continue believing in Jesus and not Mohammed, you’re passing up your chance for 72 virgin houris in the afterlife- doesn’t that sound better than a cloud and a harp?

And you needn’t worry about offending anyone here.  Your telling us we are bound for hell is about as offensive as Chicken Little telling us the sky is falling.  Do you believe in her too?

He just wants us to behave properly, with good manners and be prosperous, why is that so bad?

If your God has improved your life, Gij, more power to you.  If you are happy believing as you do, by all means continue believing.  But don’t expect us to believe what you do.

I just want to share something that I believe, know, is very good.

You believe it and know it.  We believe and know something else.  You think the Bible is the Word of God.  We think it is the words of people, just like all other religions.  Do you believe that all the Jews and Hindus and Muslims, who believe in their gods just as fervently as you do, are all simply mistaken and will burn in the Christian hell?  I see no reason to think that just one of the myriad religions on this planet happens to be correct, and all the others false.

It’s so weird to read an entire 50+ post thread about the yay or nays of religion thats a week or so old - especially if its a devisive one and i’m firmly in one camp or the other.....I’m sorry,but i’m scared folks - don’t leave your kids with religious people.Next thing you’ll know they’ll be pouring boiling water on them for purification…

Frumpa, this is nothing.  Check out the archives here for in-depth discussions.

Of course, religion is devisive, because it admits of no proof, so people are reduced to shouting and rattling sabers.  Bertrand Russell said it well (in “An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish"):

If, like most of mankind, you have passionate convictions on many such matters, there are ways in which you can make yourself aware of your own bias. If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way. Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic, because in arithmetic there is knowledge, but in theology there is only opinion. So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants.

All of you have no idea of what is beyond death,

My point, Gij, (which it beggars all imagination that you somehow missed,) is that YOU don’t have any idea what lies beyond death because you rely on legends and myth.  At least a naturalist has good reason to think that - nothing - lies beyond death.

Our personal existence, such as it is, lies in the brain.  When the brain is gone, so is the person.  Gone.  Kaput.  Erased. 

Contrary to your expectation I do understand the desire to think oneself an eternal being, but there’s no evidence for it.  Make the best of the reality we have, Gij.

Im not gonna Gij bash and I know this has been said before… ...some things to consider for Gij:

1) opinions are like assholes, everyones got em and they all stink.

2) you are entitled to your opinion as others are thiers.

3) understand that there will always be those who disagree with you, you cannot change this

4) intelligent delivery of topic material is a must.
root it in fact and youll get alot farther.

5) When speaking of ones personal faith without fact you can get a bit farther without offending others by stating “I believe... Because of “

6) keep it simple only carry on after minor points are established.

7) dont preach this only rials folks up and they tend to listen less.

8) your conviction is a good thing, just put it to constructive use and youll go far.

You were a fun stirr and easy to goad. Im sure you make a fine sheep in a flock somewhere Gij. This isnt your flock. Im certain you will be much happier elsewhere. Dont waste your time “trying to save” just yet. I think a bit of seminary[sp?] schooling is in order first.  Read More & talk less. Stay employed. Say no to drugs. Dont jack off if its bad for you.  Your concept of heaven and hell means not a shit to me. Save it.

Schweinchen,

That wasn’t exactly the reward I thought you would get....

No? Its reply met expectations.

I haven’t had time recently to train my counter-troll bot, but I saved the thread as a source of input data.

Zilch - my passionate convictions relate to feeling for others pain...balanced out by an unhealthy apathy and lazyness.

G said to me:

How you doing? You seem more agnostic than athiest to me.

In fact I AM an atheist. The correct term, I believe is fallible atheist (though many of us here might say that of themselves, I think). I do not fully rule out that I might change my mind one day, I just think its pretty unlikely.

Les in fact pointed out this distinction (to that of being an agnostic) to me some time ago.

My philosophical outlook is naturalistic humanism, BTW.

If what you really mean is ‘Ingolfson, you do not react as harshly as the others’ - you may be right. Then again, I rarely meet this In-Your-Face evangelism/these open attempts at religious influence/coercion that many in the US seem to get from religious fundys. So I don’t have as much invested in this struggle. Europe has a pretty good separation of church and state and by all accounts, that isn’t threatened much either.

In fact, if said barrier ever breaks down in the US, it will only strengthen it here. Such is the advantage of living in a place which these days is not all that ‘idealistic’ (i.e. hell-bent on pushing through SOME kind of agenda).

Lol, he said I preached in it, I never stop preaching, bro. You should’ve seen me in prison standing on the tables shaking my fists in the air. I was lost back then, all because I could not understand why God would allow souls into Heaven

Okay, this is becoming ever more ridiculous. Whatever he is, troll, fundy - he is telling a tall tale. Remember how he told us he found Jesus on the net two months ago? Now he is telling us he preached in prison, too.

Why are you even arguing with Gijn?  It seems pretty clear that he doesn’t place much stock on rational discourse.  Just make fun of him, it’s far more rewarding.

We argue with him because we like to hear ourselves ‘talk’, SS

G about Oayn

You have no such emotions as compassion and desire it not, if you do not want to feel God’s love then you never will.

Back to the snap judgments, G? Maybe God has a seat on the bench for you. Must be busy work, all these mock trials, complete with all the ‘Depart ye into everlasting fire!’-saying.

BTW, G, if I find out that you’ve been right, that God/Jesus really is the kind of God you describe him as - well, I hope I have the strength and courage to spit in his shining face as I get dragged into said fire.

you say that, then talk about life science and that’s very strange to me.
You say it bugs you that the believer knows more about the afterlife than you do. Yet you do not reflect on anythings spiritual.

Then again, he does not ‘reflect’ on life sciences either. He reads what woulld be the kind of ‘expert’ testimony I talked about above, and he knows that given some time and stury, he could repeat their research (as other have done so) and come to the same conclusions. Try that with spiritual matters. There’s almost as many faiths as there are believers.

You do not see this in the animals, each animal in it’s species is like the other, outside of their being a pack and pack leader, but their is no real diversity amongst the animals.

You obviously have never studied animals, or kept them. Animals have their characters, emotions too.

BTW - (partly new) research has shown that chimps have a moral sense, share food even with weaker members, have a good sense of fairness (i.e. of fair give-and-take within the group). Chimps have no god. They seem to do just fine, moral-wise, though.

I asked Less now I ask all of you according to your belief, how can you profess safety in the afterlife from greater spiritual beings (demons etc..)

The same way I feel safe from airplane accidents. I know that they are friggin’ unlikely.

No, wait! Bad analogy! I KNOW airplane accidents happen. I have seen photoraphs of them. I could visit accident sites if I wanted, smoking ones too, if I really needed to see them.

I have NO evidence of Hell at all, but numerous hints (in physics, logic) that give circumstantial evidence that Hell is a false theory. Don’t know about you, but that is enough for me to sleep well at night.

As you know masturbation is a sin

Transiting to http://www.thehun.com right after this, G!

Sin makes no SENSE to us, G. One of the better ‘guides’ to witnessing to atheists that I’ve read told its readers NOT to mention sin when talking to atheists, because thats nothing they can relate to. Good advice, if you ask me.

Masturbation is absolutely acceptable, healthy in body and mind, even. It only becomes a problem when you overdo it in a way as to prefer it to real sex and relationships with other human beings.

He said it is better to cut off your hand than masturbate with it, and maybe you have read His treatise on marriage and premarital sex?

Jesus wrote treatises now? Where do I get them?

That’s what I get for giving an asshole the benefit of the doubt.

You’ll do it again, Les. We all do, for otherwise we would be obnoxious little bastards

Here we have Gijn asking why Atheist are afraid of Death which should seem rather obvious to any living organism, you are going to FUCKING DIE!.
What is not to be afraid of? its completely unknown, its final, its over, the end.
Of course that’s scary, oddly enough we have such good Ol “God Fearin” Christians like Gijn here which are also afraid of Death just like everyone else, if any of these lunatics “really” believed any of the garbage they have been brainwashed into believing because of their Geographic locale on the planet then they would be “seeking death” at any opportunity and welcome it gladly, if they have a medical emergency instead of being rushed to the hospital they would simply pray and hope the bogeyman takes them to “heaven”.
I dont see too many Christians lined up to enter the Carousel, when they do such as the Jonestown thing or Heavens Gate etc., they are considered what?  Yes total nutcases.
So Yes Christians are just as afraid of Death as any other living organism on the planet, BUT unfortunately they have also brainwashed themselves into fearing LIFE, into hating themselves, belittling, demeaning themselves, they are all “sinners” from birth, are spiritual masochists, they place caveats on life that force them to deny verifiable facts in favor of completely unsubstantiated belief, this insanity causes Cognitive Dissonance & in many cases like in Gijn here to full blown Delusional Psychosis.

How horrible it must be to fear life, to live this life which is the only one you are going to get in constant fear of some bogeyman (God ,Allah take your pick) that you have brainwashed yourself into believing and what makes it worse is that those of us that have not destroyed our thinking reasoning and rational mind (Atheist/Agnostics) can not help you, Society unfortunately has decided to allow Delusional Psychosis & belief in invisible supernatural deities that have 100% control over the natural world, not only allow it but actually made this dementia the societal norm?  What this does is propagate this sheer madness further as it adds authority to the notion.

Those of us NOT Deluded are ostracized, those of us that have NOT lost our thinking & reasoning, have remained rational, are the outcast?
Now to me that is just truly scary, we have a society where the “Gijn’s” are the norm and the “Les’s” are abnormal.
Where lunacy & insanity & belief in the patently absurd are desirable traits, where rational thought based entirely on verifiable evidence and disbelief in what can be proven beyond reasonable doubt to be pure Bullshit, is to be scorned?
Then we wonder why the world in general is so fucked up?  How could it not be? we are being led by Delusional Psychotics that refuse to accept factual reality, psychotics that fully believe the supernatural has total control of the natural world and we are all just here for the ride.

Myself, im what is considered or classified as a “Strong Atheist” meaning I have no doubts whatsoever in my mind that no such Gods of anykind from any Geographic locale exist, no demons, no angels, no devils, nothing nada nil zip.
I have come to this conclusion because of over 30 years of researching this fatuity of religion and have not found one single shred of verifiable evidence to support ANY religious belief, not a single hint of credence anywhere to be found.

Meanwhile I have mountains of verifiable, tangible, Falsifiable, incontrovertible evidence to the contrary that shows very clearly the true origins of Christianity which to any sane individual debunks it entirely as anything more than exactly what it is, which is just ancient Paganism rebadged, just age old superstitions of bronze age Bedouins with the mind set of savages.

If the human animal fails to pull itself out of the societal dark ages that the specter of religion has firmly planted on it then this Mind Plague of religion could very well be the leading cause of the extinction of the human species.

As you know masturbation is a sin ...

Great quote from Penn & Teller’s “Bullshit!” episode on circumcision last night:

Expert: ... it was believed [in Victorian England] that masturbating took away your love for Jesus, your love for God ...

Penn:  It worked for me!

That’s what I get for giving an asshole the benefit of the doubt.

You’ll do it again, Les. We all do, for otherwise we would be obnoxious little bastards :wink:

I give assholes the benefit of the doubt all the time, and I’m still an Obnoxious Bitch - and proud of it.  Since this MINORITY group of fundies has managed to rise to power by being loud and obnoxious, I say it’s time those of us who cannot bear to see all rational thought banished to a dark corner get even LOUDER and MORE obnoxious.

Gij, be a Jesus freak all you like if it keeps you out of prison, off the crack pipe or helps you refrain from beating the crap out of your wife.  But your Jesus and demons are as real to me as the Tooth Fairy and I won’t apologize for laughing in the face of any adult who puts credence in such childish fantasies, and in fact if they go to great lengths to try to convince ME to engage in such self-delusion, I claim the right to call them a fucking nutjob while fervently hoping they’ll seek professional help for their condition.

Do you understand that your “arguments” (i.e. preaching) make as much sense, and carry as little value to us as they would to you if we parroted them back to you substituting “Jesus, demons and God” with “Tooth Fairy, elves and Santa Claus.”

The language and symbolism of your God as a Father or shepherd requires that followers be children or sheep.  While you have every right to consider and believe yourself as such, most people here are grownups and human beings who don’t NEED to be told how to live our lives because we can glean that from our ability to function in a civil society.  We’re simply not afraid to be personally responsible and live in the here and now, rather than giving credit to, or blaming, magical invisible beings and looking toward some afterlife as the place of punishment or reward.

“Why be born again when you can just grow up?”

Brandi said it scared her to death, very nice it’s supposed to scare you. Sometimes when you’re thinking about all the good knowledge has brought into our lives, think about how when it is used improperly it hurts us very bad. For examples try looking up Hiroshima, good going Einstein. You are never closer to the truth than when you admit you are wrong.

G, the fact that you could be for real and therefor so flaming ignorant is what scares me to death. Not your bedtime stories.

I’d rather be buried with Einstein’s “Life as I See It” than any bible.

double dipping

Sometimes when you’re thinking about all the good knowledge has brought into our lives, think about how when it is used improperly it hurts us very bad. For examples try looking up Hiroshima, good going Einstein. You are never closer to the truth than when you admit you are wrong.

One effect doesn’t make the knowledge in itself bad. Some might say it won the war. That very same knowledge that destroyed Hiroshima may just someday save our sorry asses from a comet on a path to destroying us. And it’s already proving tremendously useful in other areas. I’d say we’ve done pretty well with a technology less than 100 years old. I certainly wouldn’t wish that (or any other) genie back in the bottle.

Knowledge is power and peace...and you can NEVER have too much of it. I want to live in a world that moves forward, not cowers in the dark clutching their security blankets superstitions with their fingers in their ears.

You’re free to be as willfully ignorant as you like. Just don’t expect the same from me.

Here’s the crux of the problem:

Les, you say you want discussion, answer those last few questions.

I answered your questions. Both in this thread and in various other entries in the archives you have yet to bother to read. As I said before you’re not here for a discussion. That much is obvious by the fact that you keep ignoring the answers when they come and refuse to answer any questions yourself.

I freely give you information it has took me my entire life to come up with, my entire life. I want nothing more than to help anyone else who it can, because I believe it will be helpful to them in the afterlife.

Bullshit. You’re just here to be an asshole. You’ve made that perfectly clear.

When I say you was frightened when you took down one of my posts, why do you not put it back up?
It is realy different than the others?

Because I can’t. It’s gone. Deleted. Erased. A concept you seem to be incapable of understanding.  Is it different? Yes, you’re not trying to have a discussion, you’re trolling for your own ego.

I say it was to near to the truth and you couldn’t handle it, it was on the topic of the death of an atheist, you didn’t like that topic? Did it scare you? I bet it did, sorry.

You lose that bet. It doesn’t scare me in the least. It pissed me off that you continued to preach after claiming to want a discussion. Nothing you’ve said scares me because I don’t believe any of it. All you’ve managed to do is make me angry, but I’ve been on edge anyway due to my current employment situation. My patience is already worn thin by my circumstances and I allowed you to get my goat. My actions were done out of anger, not fear. But you won’t accept that answer either and continue to insist that you know what I think and feel, which is what pisses me off the most about you.

Where is your side to this “discussion�??

It’s in over 2000 entries and countless comments throughout this website, including this one.

Do you feel insulted? Can you not take some of what you give?

You haven’t even come close to providing what I dish out. That made me laugh.

I really don’t want to offend anybody, it does me no good to do that. I am not the type that enjoys hurting others my dignity does not allow me to gain any pleasure from that.

Bullshit. The tone of several of your past responses puts the lie to that claim.

Again, I am sorry if I really do hurt anyone with these comments I make.

Bullshit. You’re loving every minute of this.

P.S. Yes I too lay awake at night wondering what it all means..... Good morning

I’m laying awake at night worrying about finding a new job, not because I’m wondering what it all means. That hasn’t kept me awake in decades.

I think this thread has deteriorated enough for now. I’m closing it down.