LH- To quote my imaginary girlfriend who’s name has not yet been decided, partly because it’d just be forgotten anyway:

That’s a hard one

havn’t been to London for years and never had much reason to leave town (live near Hastings) - didn’t know what london pride was until googled it (though I’ve been told Brighton pride has more of a gay emphasis), interestingly came to something crossing both topics (albeit beer - close enoough):

To quote her further: In your dreams

Indeed…, I look forward to tonight

Anyway lager is way too bitter for my tastes and, though art+cultural things can be enjoyed, they have less benefit than more pressing issues, so I think they’re not the best use of resorces

So here goes:
3:1 If ye lager drinker offend thine eyes, pluck theirs out
3:2 Thou shalt sew many Saxifraga x urbium in the former sockets of their eye’s embrace
3:3 Thine leafy repentance shalt be ensured through use of gaffa tape to affix an unbreakable bond between stem and sinner, and floating orchard-boats shalt be constructed with 2 of every species of drinker, to maintain thine yield come 40 days of flood
3:4 On the autumntime thou shalt harvest the fruits of thine labour from the lager drinkers thoust keep, they will then be preserved by a cacoon of clingfilm for reciept of the giant spider that ate a NASA shuttle

As Lord High Arch Pope of the Universe I declare, decree and define, ex cathedra, that Bahamat is the Son Of Les by a Miraculous Conception outside the understanding of mortals.

Do you know what? I didn’t understand a word of Bahamat’s last post.  That’s proper religeon that is.

LH: As Lord High Arch Pope of the Universe I declare, decree and define, ex cathedra, that Bahamat is the Son Of Les by a Miraculous Conception outside the understanding of mortals.

Indeed.

And there was much rejoicing. 

But do you know why the pre-amble?

Last_Hussar- What makes the Bible true is- read it, and you will find out.  No word of it has been changed for a couple of thousand of years and the scriptures are written like it was written yesterday.  Because everything is coming true, I was not there to witness the lightning but I know that the lighting can not appear without Gods will.  I can not speak, can not breath, the sun can not shine without Gods will. 

Bahamat- I can not stop time, I can not turn of gravity, I can not live without the One that can.  But do you believe gravity or believe in radio waves?  You can not see them then how can you believe in them?  You can hear and feel them.  Well you can not see our God but we can feel Him when we stand on our knees and prey to Him.  We see can see His blessings to us, we see His creations.  We can hear Him threw his book the Holy Bible.
Jesus came here so everyone could be forgiven.  But you have to repent in your sins.  If you repented in stealing and then go steal then that was not repentance.  Drug addicts, alcoholics liars, stealers… they could not live a minute without sin, but when repented lost addiction in all of them, because they did it out of their heart and they wanted to loose those addictions. If you repent and then think I will repent but I will drink but not steal then that is not repentance. 
Yes the earth is not our place.  If you follow the Bible in this life then God will bless you.  You will have a good job, you will have a good family, you will be good.  You do not have to live hell on earth to deserve heaven.

Julian-  Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.  (St. Mathew ch11, 28-30)  I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.(St John ch10, 9-11)  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.(Psalm Ch 23, 4)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.(St Mark Ch16, 16-18) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.  Revelation Ch 21, 6-7, 4, part of 8)

Patness- Why would Christians look twice?  Because if the car would hit them then, the driver would go to jail, and we do not want that to happen.  We what people to go to Heaven not jail.  And                               Because we got families to support, and good deeds to do. 

Zilch- No I haven’t seen it.  But when was it in the 50’s?  Back then people could prey in public school, they thought Bible in schools, back then there was no evolution (I think).  Now you can not say Merry Christmas in public schools.  You have to say happy holidays.  Well everybody, Bahamat, zilch, Last_Hussar, Julian, cubiclegrrl, decrepitoldfool, MisterMook, Michael Peacock, Bog Brother, Webs, Les, elwedriddsche, Bastich, Patness, Sadie Jane, Ragmen… I know that it is too early but Merry Christmas, and a happy new year!  The savior was born!  You can be forgiven!

Cubiclegrrl- No there is a lot of healthy Churches all around.  The good church is the one that follows the Bible the way it is says.  Muhammad is dead.  Jesus is alive.  Bible is the book. 
(St Luke Ch10) He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.  17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
I do not tell you what you did or didn’t believe.  If I did, then I am sorry.  I do not decide who is Christian or who is not, the Bible does that.  If the church glorifies God, but does not say anything about drinking then that church is not right.
Kent Hovind is correct.

What makes it true is “read it”? What have you been smoking? Seriously, I think I can safely speak for most of us in saying that we’ve read the Bible. It didn’t make the rest of us insane though. Did you read the Bible after you took massive doses of hallucinogens?

Yeah, Konstantin, what MM said.  You think you’re the only person who ever read the bible?

konstantin: But do you believe gravity or believe in radio waves? You can not see them then how can you believe in them? You can hear and feel them. Well you can not see our God but we can feel Him when we stand on our knees and prey to Him.

We can devise machines that measure gravity and radio waves numerically - this data follows rules that are so consistently followed that we can predict the amount of gravity something would have or the frequency of radio-wave light, or the time taken for something to happen with near complete confidence (at least in classical mechanics)

That warm, fuzzy feeling of god on the other hand - you cannot put a numerical value to, so we cannot make mathematical rules, and therefore we’re limited in our study. It’s also not consistent - some people will feel a lot more warm+fuzzy than others in a similar position for no easily obvious reason - if it were consistent there wouldn’t be doubt. Most importantly, there is no indication that god caused it if we cannot see what’s on the other end of the line - whereas with gravity and time you can observe every object involved - it’s a lot clearer what caused what when everything’s in the physical world, our machines can only measure what’s in the physical realms, for reasons I’ll only go into if asked.

We see can see His blessings to us, we see His creations. We can hear Him threw his book the Holy Bible

We are only seeing the recieving end of this transmission - if we can’t see the sender how do we know who/what/why? Particularly when we havn’t yet disproven the alternative theories as to how it got there.

Jesus came here so everyone could be forgiven

Why was it not possible for repented sins to be forgiven without Jesus’s sacrifice?
It is difficult to measure repentance externally - at least without knowing what was going through someone’s mind - I wouldn’t rely on measuring someone by their actions, because they might be doing the same sin for a different reason (i.e. their circumstances might’ve changed and they now find they have no choice but to steal to survive) - this is why I look at intentions so much - their intention would be changed/ more informed after the repentance.

Also, as I said before, I’d hesitate to brandish all of a certain type of action as bad, you have to look at the intention behind it.

If you follow the Bible in this life then God will bless you. You will have a good job, you will have a good family, you will be good. You do not have to live hell on earth to deserve heaven

But you’d be trying to do good things for selfish motives - you’d be doing it to have a good life and to get heaven, for yourself. Supposing your god changed his mind to evil, because we all fall under dark spells from time to time, he might then start rewarding harmful behaviour with a good life - what then? Would you turn against him and continue to do what you thing would help people regardless of what he wanted, even if it meant hell? I care so much about what I’m trying to do that it’s more important than my own fate - I would continue my current path whatever god thinks of what I’m doing, even if I go to hell, it’d be worth it for the changes I can make in life. In time I would hope he would see that.

Remember though, that injustice still exists, suppose your idea of the devil holds enough power to affect what someone gets in both life and death - you could suffer more for helping the one he is opposed to. Remember that injustice, and opposition does still exist in this world, that is an indication that your god is not all-powerful, I wouldn’t expect he’d seriously allow people to fall victim to the devil/ the devil to stay evil if it was completely within his power. A benevelent person/god would do all that they can within their influence, but perhaps there is only so much they can do; a power struggle, perhaps?

I agree that suffering should not need to be necessary, but I think those who do suffer ought to get some kind of- at least an acknowledgement, for what they’ve faced, it doesn’t have to be a reward, it’d just be nice to respect for them facing what they did, though I don’t thing recognition should be expected of course, it has to be done willingly to be genuine and not feel opressive/forced.

You quoted a lot of stuff to Julian, but quotes themselves aren’t an explanation and tend to get skipped as babble - they’re just dictating to you what to think. Also if you explained what you’re trying to say, as you did elsewhere, there’s a higher chance of your point getting recognised.

Because if the car would hit them then, the driver would go to jail, and we do not want that to happen. We what people to go to Heaven not jail.

This isn’t challenging you but I’d like to look at something in law with you here:

In law people’s punishment is determined, at least in part by the consequence - If someone gets killed by a driver going a little above the speed limit (nothing unusual), the driver would probably go to jail, even if the driver didn’t anticipate the person stepping out and couldn’t brake in time, but if they somehow missed or did brake in time, or if the pedestrain simply wasn’t there, they would ever get off scot free or face a lesser offence like dangerous driving or speeding - their intention was no different but the punishment was - this doesn’t make sense to me because the idea behind punishment and repentance is to try to change intentions, and the person is no more or less dangerous to society merely by the luck of the draw. For this reason I think attempted murder is just as bad as actual murder - but they’re treated differently.

know that it is too early but Merry Christmas, and a happy new year!

Hope you enjoy it too, might as well, I won’t stop fun. However christmas doesn’t affect the my objectives, it’s no more or less important to have the spirit of giving + goodwill just because of the date. I have the 25th off from work, which’ll be a good oppertunity to catch some zzzzz’s.

13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other

It’s certainly difficult - I get stuck in the middle at work because my managers give me contradicting orders, and I tend to get the blame and cannot challenge them, so I try to say “But Justin told me to…“, which is true. The whole idea of authority is silly though - we are beings of free will, shackled, economic slaves, that’s why it’s painful and opressive. I’m saving up all I can to be free of my financial shackles.

Anyway, as I’ve said before, you have to give reasons outside of the bible to explain why you think the bible is true - It isn’t made true just ‘because it says it is’, or just because it seems a possibility to you - that’s the most it could be this side of life- a possibile explanation. We simply don’t know for certain what we have no memory of - so we can’t draw conclusions that it’s definately the christian way, or definately atheism, etc - we simply won’t know until we die.

And even if the bulk of the bible makes sense to you, that doesn’t necessarily make everything it says automatically true - deal with individual points, do cherry pick and think on individual issues, don’t just take it blindly as a package.

konstantin:  Thanks for the apology.  I do appreciate that, honestly.

I do not decide who is Christian or who is not, the Bible does that.  If the church glorifies God, but does not say anything about drinking then that church is not right.

The Bible is a *book* (or more aptly, a collection of books)—paper, ink and glue.  Like anything written, it cannot defend itself when someone misquotes or misinterprets it.  Most importantly, it does not decide for itself who is a true Christian and who is not. The Bible did not “decide” that drinking (you mean alcohol, I think) is wrong.  You and people who share your attitudes did that.  The Bible would not decide that”  Wine was good enough for Christ, and apparently better than the water he started with.  So by your logic Christ was “not right”.  I don’t think that kind of thinking’s gonna go down well with him or his dad…

This is yet another example of how you have set yourself up as arbiter of what is “real” Christianity and what isn’t.  If you would just admit that these are your opinions and that you CHOOSE to believe them (rather than claiming them as the truth), we could actually have a productive discussion.  But you fall back on the same circular logic that your religion must be true because you believe all others false.  (Meaning that you won’t even bother to learn about any other religion.  Don’t you think it a little disturbing that an agnostic like myself isn’t afraid to read religious books, but you apparently are?)

Let’s get back to Kent Hovind for a second.  If he claims to be in any way scientific, he would produce proof of his claim that DNA was somehow “purer” in the days when Adam and Eve’s kids were marrying each other faster than the Ptolomeic dynasty.  Where are these “pure” DNA samples, pray tell?  Simple answer:  He doesn’t have any.  He will never have any.  That would take actual (gasp!) research.  Oh, but wait!  The museum/book/video profit margins are much, *much* higher when you can pull complete fabrications out of your ear and not dirty your hands with fossil-hunting or lab-work or actual, well, science.  So either he’s ignorant of what he’s doing (which I doubt) or a con.  For your sake, I hope that you haven’t given him too much of your money.

Folks, I dunno why, but it just seems like a good time for this quote:

“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes time and annoys the pig.”
– Mark Twain

I like the variation, “Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. You can’t win, and after a while you realize the PIG LIKES IT!“ By the way, I’m an inspector. 

konstantin- I started grade school in 1956.  Not that it makes any difference, but in my school at least, there was no prayer, no Bible, and evolution was taught.  You could say “Merry Christmas”, however.  It doesn’t bother me if people say “Merry Christmas”, as they’re just recognizing a pagan holiday, Saturnalia, as co-opted by Christians- if Jesus existed, it is most unlikely that he was born then, since shephards do not “watch their flocks by night” in the winter in that part of the world.

In any case, a greeting is a greeting, and if it’s well meant, who cares whether it’s “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Hannukah”?  But if you’re a Jew on the subway in New York, be careful whom you greet, unless you’ve got a Muslim to protect you.

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (etc)

Don’t argue with me about the bible, I know it much better than you could ever hope to. You only read the parts your brain-washers tell you to. Plus you have on a fundie-filter; anything that clashes with your prejudices never makes it to your brain. So don’t contradict people who understand the bible infinitely better than a christian ever could.

Gospel of Mark Chapter 17:
25: For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:

26:The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

27: But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

28: And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.

If I say something about the bible, it is so. You can take that to the bank.

MisterMook- That is how I read some of the homework books.  I read the whole page and was thinking about something else and then I was like, what?  I could not remember a word I was reading, it was my eyes reading not me.  I do not take hallucinogens if I did then you guys would be going with me.  “Yea good point” stuff like that.  I do not tell what you want to hear, I tell what everyone needs to hear.  Or were you guys reading it just to find errors and contradictions.  Since you found none, then that is not a reason to dislike it.  People who read the Bible or the New Testament without knowing what was in it or without any background about it, just first time readers.  They came to Christ and they are better than I am, I need to learn from them.  They did not become something else they came where how they understood it and they came to the right church and they will be saved.  Just follow the Bible.

Bahamat- If I was living based on statistics or proved evidence then first of all I would not go with evolution and secondly I would be a one sad person. 
When people repent they get their consciousness back if they lost it and they live by it.  Why do we have conciseness?  Is it something we as ones species evolved if we did, then why?  Listen to your conciseness if you still have it, it will always put you in the right direction.  If you lost it then ask for it and you will get it back, and will live a happy life with no regrets.
I do not know what you are thinking about, but God is the right judge.  He does not judge by appearance He looks at the heart, He is always right.  Christians are helping and they are told to help in the Bible it says to love others like you love yourself.  You need to care for them if they have problems or lack in money we have to help and be caring.  We do not live for ourselves just to have a nice life.  We wish everyone else what we wish ourselves.  Good jobs, good families…
God is not a person He is always right.  Just live how the Bible tells you and that religion or belief would be right.  But you have to accept the Bible as a whole.

Cubiclegrrl- The Bible is a collection of Books starting from Moses like 4,000 years ago.  And every word in it is right.  When Jesus turned water into wine He did not get drunk on that night or I do not think that He drank any.  You can drink or you supped to drink wine when you’re remembering his death, “in remembrance of him”.  We are not supposed or what to or what to get drunk. 
What I believe could be something different from what you believe, if it follows the Bible then it is right and both f us will be saved.  Like I said, readers for the first time got it and are leaving their live right.  Because they will not be trying to read the Bible and look at it as the law or the constitution, but their conciseness and God will be telling how to live right.  But if you kneel before buddha, lie or steal… then it is not right.
It is none of your business how much cash I gave him, I could give him as much as he asks me for, after all, he is my hero.  (Just kidding)  I do not think that he wants my money; he wants people to come to Christ.  Or that is what every Christian should what.  Money will never make a person happy, maybe for a second.  I guess I would be happy if I had a 1973 Pontiac Trans AM SD455 but that would end after I would total it.  Or would see a better car, but I do not think I will, so I would be riding on it and enjoying it for a week, or maybe a month.  It gets old.  Kid loves his Christmas, or any other toy for a week, if it even lasts that long.  Money gives you temporary happiness, God gives you everlasting happiness. 
I just watched Kent Hovind and came to the conclusion that he is right.  Maybe he does not have all the facts or data but what he is saying is right.  Watch it again, maybe you missed something.

Zilch- I do not know what school you went to but, it is not like it was.

Julian- I am happy for you that you know the Bible better then I know it.  It is not about knowing or reciting it, it’s about getting it and putting it in our hearts.  Mark 7:29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.  Which shows no matter who you are if you ask for forgiveness you will be healed, or forgiven.  It’s never too late to ask Him for it.  Ask for it now, if you have to.

Konstantin summarized:  “The bible is true, God loves you, Jesus will save you, and other unfounded claims without a shred of evidence…“

And there’s this little gem:

It is not about knowing or reciting it, it’s about getting it and putting it in our hearts.

“Getting it?“  The bible could be a mechanic’s reference manual from a ‘73 Trans Am for all the difference it makes, once you’ve decided it is the holy book.  You have abandoned your brain and it is dying of loneliness.  No argument can change your mind while it is drying out on the shelf.

Are you aware that there are intelligent Christians who accept the findings of science, yet manage to function as believers all the same?  You are giving them a bad name and driving people away from your faith.

konst: I do not tell what you want to hear, I tell what everyone needs to hear

Indeed I agree that needs have priority over wants. Depends on the perception of what is a need though… which it isn’t time to contest

first of all I would not go with evolution and secondly I would be a one sad person.

Of these points i’m more botherered about why you’d see it as sad - and by sad do you mean in sorrow, or boring? - as there is more than one way it’s used.

It may be uncomfortable to have to deal with what appears to be evidence that contradicts your beliefs (particularly if it’s something you don’t want to hear), but there must be some kind of explanation for it… So whatever theory is true, it has nothing to fear of anything science can throw at it - it would completely fit in with and explain all of science

When people repent they get their consciousness back if they lost it and they live by it.

I think you meant concience, it makes more sense anyway

But it’s concience that makes you repent, not the other way round - people without concience don’t have any driving force to repent, and no substance to repent on (so even if they forcibly tried it wouldn’t be genuine and wouldn’t affect their concience)

Why do we have conciseness? Is it something we as ones species evolved if we did, then why?

For both concience and conciousness this is a very good question:
- It was a large jump from unconcious (i.e. plants) to concious (i.e. animals) - from no brain to some brain - the formation of an entirely new organ is always drastic
- An individual stands more chance at reproducing if it can steal the food and partners of it’s competiters, so you’d expect it’d be better without concience - but humans are pack animals, and pack animals survive as a collective group, perhaps the concience allowed this group to survive better

Some feelings have no obvious explanation with or without god - like boredom (what good does that do for either) or depression (which reduces survival chance but also makes no sense in terms of wanting a happy heavenly existence). For sure, the body associates certain feelings to certain things to encourage/discourage behaviour so as to survive better, but there is no obvious reason why we like, say comfort over pain - you could just as well prefer pain and have the associations swapped round so that sitting in a comfy sofa is painful, which the peraon likes, whereas breaking an arm is comfortable, so as to discourage them from doing it.

Evolution is slow and perhaps it hasn’t had enough time or pressure to iron out all the creases yet.

If you lost it then ask for it and you will get it back, and will live a happy life with no regrets.

If concience was the only thing stopping you doing things that you’d otherwise regret, then having it might prevent future regret+harm (that is it’s function), but you cannot regret if you don’t have a concience - you need to have something better to compare the mistake to before it is possible to regret.

And with concience, you’d be regretting the past mistakes you cannot change

but God is the right judge. He does not judge by appearance He looks at the heart, He is always right

Looking at the heart - means looking at someone’s past and their intentions.
Only someone who knows the entirity of your situation can be a good judge, and then he must also be understanding (which would quickly develop with watching lives). This is what’s required of any judge, irrespective of who it is.

Do not blindly accept everything someone says without challenge - it is the explanation that makes it right and that should be what earns your respect. I say this because what if you came across someone able to impersonate god?- a con-artist preying on new, vulnerable souls- You’d have to be able to identify what makes someone good + worth listening to, so as not to be tricked.

But you have to accept the Bible as a whole

But you don’t accept all the old testament - so you don’t accept all the bible as a whole.
It’s not even possible to accept it as a whole anyway so long as their are contradictions, because you’d have to be accepting both sides of the contradiction - but in doing so you’d also be violating both sides (i.e. the bits telling you to kill vs the bits telling you not to kill - it’s not possible to obey both in such a black and white choice)

And to understand what it’s really trying to say, you have to question it to some degree

We are not supposed or what to or what to get drunk.

You realise that was put into the bible to decrease the number of domestic disputes, early deaths, hangover sick days, etc - it’s well intentioned, but it need not apply to everybody, only those who’s body reacts badly to it

But if you kneel before buddha, lie or steal… then it is not right.

I think Buddha deserves some respect at least, for getting people to think, and for expanding philosophy

Money will never make a person happy, maybe for a second

Depends what they really want at the time - material goods or love? I wouldn’t mind a little luxury and financial relief, but it’s not everything. With money you know for a fact you cannot take it beyond the grave, ours is just temporary earth-only coupons for what the market thinks someone ‘deserves’, and of course that melts away to insignificant when it can’t affect you anymore- when you’re dead.

It’s never too late to ask Him for it

I could just wait until Hell gets a little too uncomfortable for my liking - you’d have to be asking forgiveness constantly if you did it in life, and that’s no way to live

Ask for it now, if you have to.

Since I’m not a Jew, I would need to call myself a dog before I asked for it. Fortunately I do not need to.

decrepitoldfool- I accept science.  All or most of the physics laws, or basically any other kind of laws.  Just theories don’t cut it.  For example the atom theory.  How do we know it is true?  Just because of the gold foil experiment.  There was like 10 theories before that, I am sure our theory about the atom is not correct, or it will be changed.  But then there are different sublevels and shapes and atom configurations but if they do not even know how the atom looks like how can they come up with its shapes?  I am sure that there is something smaller then the atom.  Do you know how far the closest star is?  No you don’t.  Not with a 5,000% error or +/- a couple of light years, or do you know how big it is.  Or what is it?  You got theories of some people who thought about the stars and then came to a conclusion.  I came to a conclusion.  God is powerful.  And he can name every star because He created every star.  How do we know what is in the center of the earth?  It’s solid Fe and it’s 4300° Celsius.  Do they know for sure?  Does anyone? I know Who knows, God. He created it.  Do you know how we got here, I know who knows guess?  Science is good for observations like, this year we counted 500 fish in the pond the next year we counted 50.  We came to the conclusion that adding pike was not such a good idea because survival of the fittest.  Evolution is good for naming all the birds, insects and stuff like that and saying this is a wolf he’s got sharp teeth, this is a dog he is not as aggressive.  We came to the conclusion, wolfs are bad pets.  Stuff like that.  You say science this, science that, science is nothing.  I guess that it would not hurt to know how far the stars are, how big the space is, or how an atom looks like.  But why learn something when it is not right, or learn someone’s theories.  I can come up with some theories by my own.  You can not see light; it’s my theory.  You only see the object brighter.  If you would point the light to space and look perpendicular to the light you would not see the light you would see dark.  If there is nothing to hit or nothing in the way of light then there would be no light.  How do you like that.  I think I actually made some experiments about that and this now considered to be a theory, just not patented or published yet.  Now you make a theory.  I got another theory about Lucy.  I should just Quote from my essay I’ve written, for sociology class once “After looking at Lucy I concluded that or I counted that Lucy had only about fifty bones and maybe three bones were actually from her.  It looks like a mess, I could have done a better job with all of those bones which were found all over the Sahara desert.  Lucy shows us how creative people can get with bones sometimes.  They could of built a tank out of those bones (a cool toy to play with), but they did not have enough time so they assembled something called Lucy, that somewhat looks like a demented skeleton.  “It was us!”  She is my mother and my father, my grandma and my grandpa, my cousin and my aunt…thank you Lucy without you I wouldn’t of been here!  Or without the scientists that assembled you.  Thank you scientists.  I know where I came form!  I do really.”  By the way I got an A.
Reference manual does not teach you how to life, there is only one book you can put in your heart and it is the Holy Bible.

Julian- I’m not a Jew as well, and I did not turn into a dog to come to Christ.  You just have to accept Him in your heart. 

Bahamat- By sad I mean sorrow, bored, always learning the new thing which is always changing, not exiting…  Name me one thing which contradicts my beliefs.  Evolution Lucy… heard of them there just beliefs or theories.  Actually I would love to hear something that contradicts either the Bible or anything else.  There is none, no matter how hard you try.
Boredom is if you were rich or do not know what to do in life.  Depression is what he evil tells you.  If you are with God you will never be bored or depressed.  I got your philosophy scientists- time.  If you give time then anything can happen.  A rock can turn into the human and earth and stars.  My God is the God of time.  Where did the rock came from?  There has to be something from the start to start.  I think that you guys will never come to a conclusion of were we and the earth and everything came from, mainly because we were created.  If you see a pen you can trace it back to China, and even maybe to some Chau who assembled it.  Where or how far can you trace the earth or people.  I think that even to a person who does not believe in God, saying which sounds more logical, that the rock exploding and creating the stars and everything else.  Or God creating it.  God creating it even sounds better. 
Looking at someone’s heart is not looking at the past it not the begging that saves us it’s the end.
Antichrist will impersonate God but he will be a person.  Antichrist will do miracles and tell a bunch of bull to people and people will listen to him.  We Christians do not follow anyone else, just Jesus.  Antichrist will be when all the countered would be united.  If you do not believe in the Bible then at least when you would see all the countries unite say I think the Bible is right, and what is everything in it right also.
It is never to late to ask for forgiveness when you live here on earth.  If someone dies then that is it, you are done, what you did is what you did.
“but it need not apply to everybody, only those who’s body reacts badly to it”(Bahamat).
Let me tell you one story of how to catch a wolf.  True story that is how some people catch wolfs without firing a bullet.  It is not that hard.

WARNING-this story might be a little graphic so if you do not like graphic stuff then do not read it I will explain it in the other way, but I think you guys should have no problem reading it.
How to catch a wolf.
First, you need a two way radio if you get lost,a gps system that can track you from space, a gun and a bazooka and when you go into the woods you just point and shoot when you see the wolf. (Just kidding)
You take the knife which is sharp at both ends and you put it in the boning water so all of the scent would be gone from it, you do it like three times if you want to be real careful, because wolfs are really picky.  Later you take that knife and you pour blood over it like from some animal or something and then put it in the ice so it would freeze.  Repeat pouring blood over the knife and freezing it like three times.  It is a more detailed description of basically a knife with no human scent which has blood frozen over the blades or the whole knife.  And you just go and throw the knife into the woods or the spot where you might think you’ll get one and come tomorrow with the wolf dead next to your knife.  How does this happen is a little graphic but keep on reding if you want to.  The wolf comes to the knife covered in blood and starts to lick it, thinking that it has found it’s pleasure, found a free meal no chasing around was necessary.  It licks it and all of it’s mind is focused on it he is enjoying and relaxing, no harm is done yet.  Just walk away wolf.  No.  So the ice melts down and the wolf starts to bite and lick the sharp blades.  The wolf can not feel the paint it is still enjoying that deadly meal.  When blood starts to go out of his gums and his tongue the wolf still licks, and bites but this time he is enjoy his own blood.  He still licking and biting but he can not see or feel the pain.  Only if he could have looked at himself from the side, he might have quit.  But the wolf does not notice anything wrong he is still enjoying.  To make the long story short the wolf looses all of its blood and dies.  He did not know that it was bad, he did not know that there was death, after all that pleasure.  I personally if I would need to kill the wolf I would just pop his brains out with like an elephant riffle or something.  A quick death.  But maybe the wolf dies peacefully maybe he does not feel the pain, when he licks and bites the knife.  The hunter just prepared that meal just the right way and threw it into the right spot to catch the wolf.  Guys and everyone do not go for the sin because the evil is casting his tricks and for everyone it’s a different flavor. It might look or seem good from your point of view or seem that there is nothing wrong with that but you do not know what is behind all that.  Thank you for reading if you did.  You might not think sin does not affect you but look at yourself from the side, from the top.  Remember God sees everything.
“That warm, fuzzy feeling of god on the other hand - you cannot put a numerical value to, so we cannot make mathematical rules, and therefore we’re limited in our study.”(Bahamat)  If there was a way to measure our God then that would not be God, because our God is unlimited.  You can not give him length, size, shape, volume to our God.  You can not get an equation and get 5.4 on a richer scale, get 9.8 m/s^2, you can not get 6.02 x 10^23 or 56 inches tall. “[1] Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?  [2] For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word”(Isaiah Ch 66, 1-2).  Our God created everything and we might not give Him a number but we can give Him our hearts, and then we will be the happiest people of all. “That warm, fuzzy feeling of god”(Bahamat).  More like a feeling that you can not explain or get out of any hallucinogens or drugs. That feeling when the profit stands up and tells the future.  That feeling when “[22]…how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.  [23] And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me”(St Luke Ch7, 22-23).  That feeling of repentance.  Is that the feeling you are talking about?
Why is the Bible correct here is one example which tells what people will turn away from the truth and would be “cherry picking”.  “[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;  [2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.  [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;  [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.  [5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.  [6] For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.  [7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:  [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.  [9] Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:”(2 Timothy Ch4 1-9).  And that is what is happening right now a lot of churches are going for new, for more modern.  The Word of God stays the same it does not change, unfortunately people do. 

I think that maybe I have some good news for you guys.  I would be gone for a month.  Merry Christmas!  I still want to tell you guys the truth but I got to go.  Maybe if all goes well I would write to you in the new year, a month from now.  I respected all of your comments and if I offended anybody or something I’m sorry.  We all make mistakes.  I forgive you all if you have something.  God bless so that we will still be alive and happy. Thank you.

I’m not a Jew as well, and I did not turn into a dog to come to Christ.  You just have to accept Him in your heart.

That’s not what the bible says. According to the bible you have to say you’re a dog first. It’s there in black and white. Guess you don’t believe in the bible then.

Us:  “Nein, Konstantin; Vibrato, Vibrato!!!“

Konstantin: “Oink, oink oink oink.“

I made Lightning. Does that make me God?

Let me explain. I get a shock from Static Electricity.  I have just done what clouds do- rub together to create a build up of electrons.  When my hand comes near to something conductive and grounded the electrons jump the gap, and flow to Earth.  This is all that lightning is- static electricity grounding (and trying to prempt another unreadable block of text) it jumps over greater distances because the charge is greater.  It’s the same thing that makes balloons stick to walls after rubbing on your hair (Sorry Les) and bits of paper stick to you.

Now according to Konsi, God does all this He has to micromanage every sub-atomic action

but I know that the lighting can not appear without Gods will.  I can not speak, can not breath, the sun can not shine without Gods will.

Now compare this with

Just theories don’t cut it.

Now the famous ‘Go and jump off a tall building then shout Gravity is just a Theory’ is often quoted here.  Konsi, go and find out the SCIENTIFIC definition of a Theory.  IT IS NOT the Language version- which means a educated guess.  A scientific theory fits ALL observed facts, and predicts future behavior. If at any point future behavior is out side the scope of the theory, then the theory is wrong, and needs to reworked.  Evolution works.  When a new animal is discovered biologists can make predictions about its DNA etc.  If you tested its DNA and found instead of the normal AGCT bases a fifth one, or 4 bases but made of different parts- instead of sugars and carbon, fats and silicon, you would have to say that the current theory is wrong at least in parts.  If offspring had features not even hinted at in the parents genes, the Evolution would be in trouble.  But they have never found ANY thing that does not conform.  Yes the odd bit has been rewriten as we find out new things, but they tend to be adding to, rather than contradicting.

Hypothesis.  If I toss this coin it will come down with side A showing.
I toss the coin. It shows side B
Hypothesis is wrong. Try
If I toss this coin it shows side B
I toss coin. It shows B.
I toss it again. B
again B.
B B B B B B B B
Hmm. I’m going to say I have a theory.  If you toss this coin you get side B.  I will write up this in a peer reviewed paper.
Prof DoF argues the claim.  He tossed a coin and got side A. His claim is shown to be valid- identical coin, same tossing method.
Theory Wrong.
New Theory
Toss this coin at one time in 13 it shows A.
Competing theory. A will show at least one time in thirteen.
Long days tossing coins. Tally shows 50/50 split, with less margin of error from this 50/50 the more coins tossed.
Revised Theory.  When you toss a coin you have a 50% chance of predicting which side comes down ‘up’.
IT IS NOT A FACT. Someone could toss a coin tomorrow and it come down Edge.  We have never seen Edge, so we propose the physics in the flight will stop this BUT IT MIGHT HAPPEN TOMORROW.  There is always another coin to toss, hence this remains a theory. It does however give an accurate model that fits all know data.

Faith CANNOT predict, as acts happen OUTSIDE a predictable framework, due to 3rd party intervention.  There is nothing stopping your god from opening the draw next to me.  I can not predict if it will happen or not.  How can I form an opinion on his existence, especially if he does not open the draw?

Here however is a prediction come true.

Konstantin:  You are absolutely correct that it is none of my business how much of your money is funding Kent Hovind.  What you choose to spend your money on—assuming it’s legal—is your business.  And, for the record, I certainly didn’t imply that Jesus would get drunk.  (I like to think better of any wine-drinker, actually.  But I’m kind of a snob that way…) 

But you make two statements that I find interesting.  The first is that Kent Hovind is merely trying to bring people to Christ.  Believe it or not, I actually have no problem with that.  Except that he’s in the wrong business.  If he wants to preach the Gospel, he should be in the ministry talking up the Bible as a religious truth (whatever that is).  But here’s the thing:  He’s trying to pass himself off as a scientist, but he won’t bother to follow the discipline that science requires.  Science only works when you have data and methods that can be tested by someone else.  He doesn’t do that.  Trying to pretend that he does makes him a liar (and, to some extent, a thief).  That’s a violation of at least one of the Commandments.  You said yourself that he maybe doesn’t have all the facts or data.  If that’s the case, he needs to get out of the business of lying about what science really says.  I’m sure that it makes tons of sense if you accept his word for it.  When I was a teenager, I made the mistake of trying to take on Hitler’s “Mein Kampf”.  At the time, the fact that it made so much sense scared the heck out of me.  For about an hour.  Then I realized that what Hitler was doing was arguing from the basis of—shall we say—“flawed data”.  Everything from sweeping generalizations to bald-faced lies.  If Hovind wants to consider himself a Christian, he should stop doing the same thing.  You may think that bringing people to Christ is a worthy cause, but the ends do not justify the means.  As they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.  If I were a Christian, I would consider Hovind on a one-way trip to Hell because he is willing to lie to get other people to believe in God. 

I also find it interesting that people like you and Hovind try your darnedest to roll back 150+ years of evolutionary science (not to mention astronomy, geology, etc.), but can’t seem to answer for the fact that the Bible actually contains two versions of the Creation, and that they contradict in some details.  In the first account, God creates the plants before Man and Woman, and in the second, Man is created of dust, and then God creates plants for him.  If you’re going to claim that as “the truth” of how the various forms of life came to be on this planet, I think it’s at least reasonable to insist on agreement between the two accounts.  (How the kangaroos and such swam to Australia after Noah’s Ark landed in the Middle East is another question for another day…)

Konstantin, I wouldn’t tell you not to believe in God and the Bible.  I can even muster a smirk at the idiots who use the technology of the internet to blame “evil, atheist scientists” for all the world’s ills.  But I do insist that people who call themselves “scientists” follow the same rules and rigor as everyone else.  And as long as you keep coming here to insist that the Bible is true because you can’t believe otherwise, you’re going to get push-back.  I wouldn’t get away with that kind of “logic” at my job. Or in any of my schoolwork, regardless of what course I took. 

But to end this on a lighter note, best of the season to you.

konstantin- I’ve heard that story about the wolf licking the knife too.  It’s an arresting image indeed, and a favorite one for sermons.  Trouble is, it’s folklore: no one is sure where it came from, and no one is sure that it works.  Sort of like the Bible.

In any case, a super solstice to you.  The Reason for the Season: Axial Tilt!

Cubiclegirl, beautifully said!    Hovind is using a lot of scienc-y words without scientific discipline.  And for that matter he doesn’t seem to grasp the bible very well either.

A happy Getmas to all!  (I am hoping to receive no physical presents this year.  Getmas is about friendship and family to me.)