konstintin:  A couple’s respect for and commitment to each other and families is most certainly NOT a Christian preserve.  That’s why every culture in the world has families of all kinds. It’s part of being human, not religious.  And—speaking as a straight person who’s been married for a dozen years—I find your reference to “homos” flat-out disgusting.  You know nothing of human love or human goodness if you can’t give people credit for sharing each others’ lives fully, regardless of gender.  If you’re only good to your wife and kids out of fear of hellfire or belief in a supernatural being, then it ain’t real love, in my book.  IIRC, atheists and agnostics have a lower divorce rate than Christians anyway.

konstantin, I went to Sunday school, thank you very much, and I’m familiar enough with religion that I can pick out more saints in artwork than anyone I know, ‘cept for the librarian who used to be a nun.  I walked away from Christianity after believing in God, and coming to the conclusion that the belief was not my own.  This was a conscious decision, not one of ignorance.  I’ve seen nothing since then that would make me change my mind.  Certainly not your rambling.  If anything, you will harden hearts, because people want to be perceived as reasonable, and you do nothing but make dodgy, ill-informed (at best) claims about “science” when you don’t spout dogma outright.

In case you’re interested, the Q’uran makes the same claims, i.e. “proving” the existence of Allah (the merciful, the compassionate).  Allah (the merciful, the compassionate) must exist because He created the world—just look around you for the proof.  So if that’s all the proof you need, why are you not Muslim?  Read the Q’uran if you don’t believe me.

Oh, and btw:  Please stop using honeybees as an example unless you learn a little more about them (like the fact that workers don’t mate with drones).  Then again, you might not like knowing what happens to drones when they do mate with a Queen.  Most guys tend to get a little queasy over that part.  If honeybees are the especial creatures of a God who loves his creations, why does that have to happen to males?  Ditto the male preying mantisses who are eaten (head-first) by the female when they mate.  They’re a good reason that those arrangements “work” from an evolutionary standpoint.  But for a God created in the image of bronze-age goat-herders…not so much.

konstantin - you don’t need to press double enter every line, I don’t mind though myself, others will. I double enter every point

I’ll start with answering your final point to me, then go onto the rest of your comment;

I respect all of your comment but you take them sentence at a time. I think I should make longer sentences which would be a paragraph long.

There was a time when I used to, but points get skipped over and people lose track of what refers to what (including me). I pick sentances, use the quote function so you know what part of your comment I was talking about, and deal with it directly. This way I also have nowhere to hide, I pretty much have to address everything you say in what I quote, to save face.

My God is almighty and you can not fit Him in the closet or in space. But you can fit Him in your heart

So you’re saying he doesn’t have spacial dimensions (length, etc), but is able to connect to people’s minds (so would have to be linked to them somehow)...

Maybe, I don’t have any way of knowing, but you could conclude at least that there isn’t one contained in the physical dimensions, or we could see + interact with it in life

In the Bible it says that people should not be harsh to people and treat every human with respect. It does not matter whether it is the president, your mom, your boss, your worker. People think of slaves as being human dogs.  In the Bible every person is treated the same, and deserves same respect. So even if you got a slave these days like a person working for you then you can not be bad to him just because he is working for you, like a carpenter.

By and large that’s part of being a decent human being (i.e. anyone who did look down on those of lower rank I’d consider an asshat). It is good that the bible apparently encourages respect, but that doesn’t mean it should take all credit - there are humane people outside xianity

I think all people, just for being alive and dealing with some level of challenge in life deserve some level of respect, but I would not say all people deserve equal respect, how about;

You deserve to be treated as you treat others

Be that good or badly, both provide a person with feedback as to how they’re behaving. This is one thing that, if I’m correct, a well intentioned bible writer/character also agrees with. (i’ve never read the thing myself)

We married because of love, nothing else, male and a female makes a couple

As does every other combination

Why is gender even an issue in love at all? You love somebody for who they are, not what they are. You love Jesus do you not? He’s male, and I assume you are, that’d make you either gay or bi.

It’s not somebody’s fault they happened to be born a certain gender, they should not be denied the oppertunities to love who they otherwise would

When hard times come like a husband comes home and had a horrible day at work then wife has to know how to act to still have love and not develop arguments and later develop hate

Wrong, the husband has no right to treat his wife badly just because things are bad for him, and same goes for when the wife has a bad day.

It’s not the wife’s fault that their partner is emotionally infantile (though she may’ve chosen better)

and if no one apologizes then we know what will happen a bunch of paperwork

A genuine appology? Or just something that’ll provide a quick-fix?

To build a healthy family it takes time, years upon years but to destroy it all it takes is a couple of words or five minutes, even less

Depends on you’re ability to communicate why you did what you did with honesty, and whether it really was love, because real love lasts beyond the split, that’s why they’re upset

There would no longer be wars, no more starvation, no more pollution, no more global warming and fail of evolution. (The fittest are dead they got wiped out by a homo virus which took everyone away faster then global warming or solar radiation could. 30 years.)

Evolution wouldn’t have failed - vulnerability to a homo virus would be what evolution would be eliminating - we would not be the fittest species in reproductive terms if we didn’t reproduce

I follow the Ten Commandments it’s a must

You do it because you’re told to. You don’t want to go to hell, so you’re avoiding sin purely for your own benefit.

Besides, you don’t have proof that it was god who said these things, because if it did exist, then atheism wouldn’t, there would be no doubt, that’s not the case

nor adulterers, nor fornicators, nor idolaters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with man kind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Someone could be a really kind person, living in the true spirit of JC naturally, and you would write them off just because they did one of these things once in their existence? How is this forgiving?
What if you were told that you did one of these things before life? And so despite a perfect life after you were denied entry anyway?

Does that mean that you’re going to hell too with the other 99.99999%+ of human beings on the planet?

The stars the sun, the trees, the animals, the people. Everything we see is proof.

Proof that this solar system exists with life on the planet, but that doesn’t automatically mean goddidit.

Did you wonder why everything around us in the summer is green? Because green is the only color which the eye does not have to stress to see.

No, because leaves contain a pigment called chlorophyll to convert sunlight into chemical energy to make sugars, chlorophyll itself is green because it has a magnesium 2+ atom with 4 chelating nitrogens

Besides it may’ve been a modification of our own eyes to adapt to all the green it’s seeing

Our life is a test and we will see how good or bad we do on it on the last day

Life is an oppertunity to interact with other people and change lives. Supposing for a minute there was an afterlife, there is no guarantee that there will be anyone other than yourself there…

“If the sky opened up there would be nothing but you and your memories. (of) The choices you’ve made, and the people you’ve touched.“
from Donnie Darko

Seriously, this is the one time when we know we stand a chance at shaping people’s feelings and attidudes, as well as enjoying the company of others. There is no guarantee this will continue after death (because otherwise, what was the point in life?). Just think how much of a shock to the system it’d be to find that though you are the god of your own mind, there is nothing left but you. Scary? It’s a possibility to be prepared for…

So what do you think really counts to a person? How they feel? Or what they think?
Because you do with your life what you percieve to be best, as you are now, but I’m trying to point out that maybe there are even better ways to use this precious time. Do not wish life to be over with a good result as soon as possible, use it to change things.

I know that female bees would simply throw them out of the hive and wait for the real male bees to grow up

What is not grown up about love? Even if it is for the same gender. You can’t genuinely be what you’re not (i.e. a gay person trying to be straight), and if you tried to be you’d be suffering and eventually the pretense would show.

Be what you are, and do not falsify feelings unless to protect someone from unnecessary harm.

To live by the Bible you either except as a whole or you reject it.  And rejecting it is a better place then cherry-picking because if you reject it you know that it’s not yours.

It’s not made any more or less true by your choice to accept/reject it, and if you totally rejected everything in it, you’d be everything you stand against, and cause far more harm (remember what I said that some aspects are about being a decent human being). You’d also be rejecting many other things with it.

Besides, unless YOU accept everything in the old testament too, and agree to both sides of all the contradictions without upsetting either side, then you are also cherry picking.

the Bible is the true book and everything in it will happen

So on what year did the apocalypse happen, konstantin?

The Bible will be the judge. Read it and correct your steps according to It and then everything will be alright

There’s something a little threatening about living an oppresively restrictive existence, or else…
Isn’t that slavery? And where is the credit? It feels like it’s marked entirely negatively, and to pass you have to score 0 - the moment somthing slips you’re eternally damned because there is no recognition of good.

It also seems unnecessarily restrictive - some of these things don’t harm anyone. Do you want to live under that oppressive fear?

We were created in Gods image so that is why we are so special. And God put us over all the animals

It is not the animal’s fault that it happens to be born an animal - and by this it’s denied the same oppertunities as man

Did you see the part where Kent Hovind was explaining about carbon dating?

No, but I am a chemist, and I understand exponential decay from what background physics I’ve been taught, and it makes sense in terms of it’s explanation- that’s what you have to dislodge

Konstantin, if you have proved anything it is that you are incapable of understanding the basic concepts of science, or perhaps much of anything else.  Let’s try something easier - how about the difference between a sentence and a paragraph? 

A sentence is an independent expressive unit in which something happens to or by something or someone.

Sentences can be simple or complex:

Simple: “Jesus wept.“ 

Complex: “And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist’s head in a charger.“

You should put one space in between sentences.  When you have a series of sentences that support a common idea, you have the makings of a paragraph.  Put two returns between paragraphs.  This will result in a page that has clear paragraphs full of connected sentences. 

That’s all for now.

What an annoying jackoff.

In the Bible it says that people should not be harsh to people and treat every human with respect. It does not matter whether it is the president, your mom, your boss, your worker. People think of slaves as being human dogs.  In the Bible every person is treated the same, and deserves same respect.

Actually no. Jesus clearly stated that he only came to help the Jews and that the gentiles were like dogs compared to the people of Israel. When a gentile woman asked for his help, he refused to help her until she admitted she was like a dog asking for crumbs from his table.

Read the whole goddamn bible and not just the parts that agree with your narrow views and preferences.

I swore once more that I would lay off doing konstantin, but this is too much!

I love honey!  I’ve heard a lot of stuff about honeybees.  Are yours disappearing?  Tell me how long would your hive last if let’s say half of them decide to become homo?  And if they do; what would you do?

O du lieber Konstantin!  How lucky for my monitor that I had no coffee in my mouth!  To say stuff like that, the “lot of stuff” you’ve heard about honeybees must come entirely from Saturday morning cartoons!  Maybe that’s where your Christianity comes from too.

Btw- needless to say, this has nothing to do with konstantin, but I thought people might be interested in a project to develop an internet Stupid Filter.  Cheerios!

Something has been bugging me about a statement made by our dear child konstantin.

How old is the earth?  How about 3,153,600,000 seconds for an answer, which is 6,000 years.  No I would get it wrong, because what she believes is higher then what I believe.

Last night at work it hit me, konstantin would get the date wrong anyway by his own dating. Let us grant the child his delusion of creation in 6 “days” of 1,000 years each. Genesis 1:1 says

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Simple, honest and direct. Goddidit on the first day so, giving for the events in the OT and the NT, we still have to add a minimum of 4000 years and maybe even more. konsi, you need to add a few seconds to that total to be correct by your own skewed view, much less by any sane reality-based view.

What makes you think Konstantin is smart enough to do his own math? I’m thinking he’s pulling numbers from someone else’s work, just like he’s pulling everything else from someone else’s work. It’s a symptom of Christianity that the more you buy into it the less likely you are to think for yourself.

Last Hussar-  Why is the world our proof?  Because when I look at it and say no evolution could have done it, it is too perfect.  When I look at a football I could say that yeah it was assembled in China.  But when I look at the seed which later becomes a tree I can not say that evolutiondidit.  Why my God because He is real and He gave us the Holy Bible which is true and is correct and we can see by reading the Bible that everything is coming to the end, and what it says in the Bible is true.  And I do not see any other gods which I should listen to, or that could answer my prayers, or provide help when needed.  There is only one God. 

cubicgrrl-  Not all Christians are Christians.  Some Christian churches let people do what ever they want, and church just wants money from them.  I am going to a church which does not do that.  No one in our church gets paid, I do not know about the clean up crew but the people that preach, the pastors no one gets paid out of a church account.  They all got jobs, and sacrifice their time.  The money that people give goes to electrical bills, and to help people who are in need, all around the world, and in our town, and in our church if there are any.  Our church follows the Bible like it is written and we do not follow the crowd.  Just being called a Christian will not save anybody.  In fact I was driving and then I see a car pull up right in front of me.  I slammed on the brakes and crashed into a tree, trying to avoid it.  That car took off someone tried to catch it but he couldn’t that car was gone.  Where was that car coming from?  Some church.  I would have been better of kissing it really hard in it’s behind then insurance would have played for all the damage.  But what happened happened.  Thank God I am still alive.  I did not go back to that church trying to find it and ask around.  There were witnesses I probably could of got him in one day if I tired, dark green geo prizm 94-97.  I forgot about him.  Even if I would know how it was I would just tell him not to do it again and stuff like that.  Of course my was not a Ferrari, but on that on I would have good insurance covering everything. 
If I say “I pick my nose.”  (That is disgusting, you do that.)  But if I say I pick someone’s behind with my thing then that is not?  Define disgusting.  Or what is?
I respect homos and any other sinners; they just do not know what they are doing.  If a kid is going towards the electrical outlet with a paperclip in his hands then the parent if sees will take the paperclip away and tape the outlet or do everything possible to protect the kid from being hurt.  Because parents love their kids.  Well not the ones that got the kid by an accident and then throw them in rivers or put them in trash bags, or do abortion.  Is that disgusting?  Or humane.  The real parent will watch out for their kids while they are growing up and will not let the kid go to an outlet and expect the kid to learn from his mistakes.  The parents will tell and preach to the kid that it is danger out there, do not go there you will get hurt.  If the kid gets curious and will not listen to the parents and will try to see what will happen then who is in fault?  That is what God is doing to us.  He prevents us from sin because He knows and everybody here on earth who tried sin long enough knows that it is bad and you will regret later. 
If you left the church then that means that you were never into it.  You just went there because your parents brought you there.  Or what kind of parents did you have the ones that went to church on Sunday and sinned on Monday-Saturday.  I do not know maybe they were model parents.  But that is what happens; parents bring their kids to church like it is some kind of ritual that we have to go threw.  If you love God then you will be coming to church everyday and be wanting to come and be there evrday.  Then kids see their parents do that and they think what is the point in going to church when my dad is a model Christian in church but when he comes out he beats on his wife.  I do not think that any kid would be a Christian after being with those parents.  My parents brought me to church, I watched them live and saw that it was good being a Christian.  I have a choice to do what ever I want and I do not find nothing in this world that is better then Christ.
I do not have to read q’uran or any other of their gods.  There all dead, Muhammad… My Christ risen.  My God is not dead.
Same with black widow spiders the female while mates eats the male.  Why?  I am not a scientist but maybe that the female needs calories or protein, I do not know but that is the way it happens in the insect life.  If it was like that in humans then I would say that that is messed up or perverted, if I saw my mom eat my dad. 

Bahamat- Our job is to treat everybody good.  If someone lies to us then that does not mean that we need to lie back to them, we forgive and move on.  What that means if you are stealing or lying to people then others who you will be around would do it to you.
I guess evolution is right anyway you look at it.  If this happens evolution is right.  If that happens evolution will find a way out.  It’s always right.  Anything you do evolution will be right, right?  So kill, steal, sin and evolution will still be right.
Bible is the book.  And all of the other religions which did not want to conform to the Bible took stuff from the Bible and then split.  All other (not to offend anybody) religions worship a dead god, and are wasting their time.  Some people walk on their knees for miles upon mile trying to please there gods.  A painful presses.  Some religions have to kill people to get virgins in heaven.  All I know that Christianity is right and I can see it, go to church and you will too.
All of us did those things in our existence and no one should be saved.  But Jesus went on the cross and changed that.  We used to be sinner but now we are free.  If you repented then that sin is washed away, it was forgiven.  It is not the begging that saves us, but the end.  You could sin all you life and not know Christ and then in the last minutes hear the word of God and repent in your sins and you will go to heaven.  But that does not happen often.  We see it on the news drunk driver… innocent people…tree…
You can interact change lives, that is a part in Christianity.  There is nothing wrong with interacting or changing lives, that is a good thing. 
There is no oppressive fear, the only people in fear are the ones which are in sins.  Christian people are not afraid to die. 
You got to see Kent Hovinds tapes.  Then you will understand more of what I am trying to say.  In fact I will have nothing to say because Hovind tells it all about evolution and thing like that.  If you get a chance then watch it.  You will find some things really interesting.

Julian- Jesus came to save everybody, and he forgives everybody.  People around Christ were saying look at what He is doing, He can not let a sinner touch Him like that.  But Jesus forgave her, He did not ask her to do that she did it out of her heart and that is what mattered.  Some people just touched the clothing and were healed, because they had faith.

Zilch- Christianity does not come from cartoons and that is like the last place where you would see it on public television channels. 

Bastich- One day equals a thousand years and a thousand years equal one day.  Why?  Because 1,000 or even 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years does not mean anything in comparison with eternity or infinity. 

Decrepitoldfool-  Thank you for the free lesson.

MisterMook- I get my numbers the way they appear in the Bible.

Konstantine- just because you can’t believe something doesn’t make it true. Hindus and Sikhs have theri own creation myths- what makes your’s correct, and theirs wrong? How do we know your holy book is more accurate than theirs. How do you know their holy books are less accurate than yours?

2000 years ago people did not understand lightning, but gave it a supernatural explanation- ‘godidit’. We now know what causes lightning- static electricity generated by friction between cloud borne particles.

Question- What really caused lightning 2000 years ago- God or Friction?

I’ll only deal with points to me, it would be good to focus, for emphasis

konstantin: If someone lies to us then that does not mean that we need to lie back to them, we forgive and move on.

I broadly agree that forgiving allows to move on, but I feel perhaps we should say that something like lying, or stealing, isn’t always a bad thing 100% of the time; I feel I need to do this because it’s common for people, more so the organised religous, to brandish entire concepts good or bad under ALL circumstances, which simply isn’t true.

Lies can sometimes hurt without helping anyone, lies can sometimes help without hurting anyone, it’s an action, the decision to do it is only made good or bad by the intention (bearing in mind possible consequences but not making the consequence the decider of the morality, because there is an element of the unknown, and it wouldn’t achieve anything to blame someone for an accident that wasn’t their intention)

- same with stealing - can be good in the case of Robin hood - can be done to help others, even if it isn’t usually. It’s also arbitary as to whether people really deserve how much they earn - that bill gates is a billionaire doesn’t mean he’s done work equivilent to how long it’d take for a minimum wage worker to reach that sum - likewise someone doesn’t deserve an expensive lifestyle merely for being born into a wealthy family. in this way stealing can almost re-distribute things a little more fairly, and the law may be protecting those who routinely exploit people within the law.

Anything you do evolution will be right, right?  So kill, steal, sin and evolution will still be right.

In much the same way as gravity will always be right whatever you do, or that time will always go forward whatever you do - we live within laws of nature and statistics, everything we are capable of doing is completely contained within it, we cannot do anything outside it, so we cannot manipulate or escape it.

You cannot stop time, you cannot turn off gravity, etc, because you are within them, much as you are within evolution

All other (not to offend anybody) religions worship a dead god, and are wasting their time

What, outside the bible, tells you that the bible is correct?

Because to me, from outside it looks similar to the way muslims think the Q’ran is correct, because the Q’ran says it’s

If I make a book, the Bahamatography, and that book says it’s right, then surely it must be, because it says it is, and it says it doesn’t lie so it must be true…

If you repented then that sin is washed away, it was forgiven. It is not the begging that saves us, but the end

Do you know what deep repenting feels like? As you said, shallow pleaing doesn’t work, that’s bacause it’s not genuinely meant, but to be just saved by some unrelated event that Jesus did is not repentance - if you didn’t feel the pain of the crime yourself, you didn’t repent, and If I were a judge I would not quash the offender’s sentance by punishing the victim instead - where’s the sense in that?

There is no oppressive fear, the only people in fear are the ones which are in sins.  Christian people are not afraid to die.

I get a good natured tone off your version of christianity, but I have seen for myself that if it’s not explained correctly, you can make vulnerable people very afraid of hell. They then follow the rules rigidly out of fear, and the feeling that they have to is the opression. Under these conditions life is too painful to be enjoyed overall, that is why they excuse it as a ‘test’ so that it doesn’t have to be enjoyable, because you’re working for something better for yourself, and since it’s either good result or bad result, they just want to get life over and done with with a good result so they nolonger have the risk of messing it up and having to live under strict rules. But this may well all be false hope, and it’s so sad to see people making their lives so awkward, so completely unnecessarily

Bahamatography

Now there’s a Messiah I would follow, even if only out of curiosity.

1:1 thou shalt kill
1:2 10000000 points for getting bush
1:3 The lamb shall be washed in the blood of manmen
1:4 So that all competition for thine womenfolk shalt be vanquished and that sheep are easy to count when I try to get to sleep

Jesus came to save everybody, and he forgives everybody.

That’s not what the bible says. You should try reading it sometime because you’re just plain wrong.

There is no oppressive fear, the only people in fear are the ones which are in sins.  Christian people are not afraid to die.

This caught me and I had to pick up on it: Christian people live in sin. All people are in sins. That’s what Jesus came to forgive.

And I know plenty of people who, as far as I can tell and inasmuch as I know Christian theology, are genuine Christians. However: I guarantee that when they cross the street, they still look both ways.

Christianity does not come from cartoons and that is like the last place where you would see it on public television channels.

Konstantin, I guess you’re too young to have seen Crusader Rabbit.

Update: here’s that gallant bunny on youtube.

One day equals a thousand years and a thousand years equal one day.  Why?  Because 1,000 or even 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years does not mean anything in comparison with eternity or infinity.

Sounds like another dodge to me. Try this, you said 6000 years, back up the statement with hard fact. Wait, all you have is the ramblings of bronze age yutzes wanting to be in charge.

konstantin:  I have to tip my hat to you for the most extensive display of circular reasoning that I’ve seen in awhile.  So any Church that doesn’t work like yours is false, eh?  If I believed in God, I’d have to think that She’d be more than a little miffed at your presumption at deciding which Church is “real” and which isn’t.  Doesn’t She consider that her perogative?

If you’d weren’t so afraid of setting foot outside this little spiritual gated community you’ve created for yourself, you’d read the Q’uran. (As I’m certainly not afraid to tag along to Church—even Southern Baptist ones—with others or read the Bible.)  Then you’d know that Muslims worship the same God you do, just by a different name.  You’d find a bunch of Old Testament stories there.  You’d also understand that Muslims believe that Jesus existed and actually consider his teachings valuable, as they do with the Hebrew prophets.  It’s just that they consider that whole son-of-God-by-a-virgin thing complete nonsense.  Basically, it just boils down to the question of who’s the only “legit.“ prophet.  Mohammed considered himself a reformer, not the creator of religion.  Who is to say that he is not the true prophet? 

Only the “my prophet can beat up your prophet” games that fundamentalists play.  Out of sheer ignorance, I might add.  You’re no different than Mike Huckabee who thumps his chest about his theology degree but says that he doesn’t know much about Mitt Romney’s Mormonism.  A degree where you spend four years in school and study one religion is *not* worth the paper it is written on, IMO.

The bottom line is that a whole lot of people have said a whole lot of things about God.  And they all are drop dead certain in their own correctness.  But about the only opinion (and belief is only an opinion when it’s all said and done) they share is that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong and will burn in Hell.

As such, your chance of being “right” about the unproveable is as slim as the billions of believers who have gone before you. 

Furthermore, how DARE you tell me what I did and didn’t believe at any point in my life?  That’s almost as pretentious as you deciding who is and isn’t a real Christian.

Oh, and if you say you don’t know why insects were “created” to meet some rather cruel ends, then you need to stop telling people to believe the data that has stacking up for 150+ years in favor of evolution.  Get is straight:  Ken Ham and Kent Hovind are LIARS who either fabricate their “facts”, or take science *completely* out context (i.e. banging on about erosion w/o mentioning plate tectonics).  Moreover, Ham’s contorted logic (e.g. that Cain incestuously found his wife among his sisters, but that was okay because the DNA was somehow “pure” back then) makes my teeth ache.

Whooops—meant “...telling people what to believe about the data…“

Whooops—meant “...telling people what to believe about the data…”

I wouldn’t worry too much about precision when you’re talking to K.    It’s not like he’s reading with a magnifying glass or anything.

Right, he doesn’t even do that with his holy texts.

My determination is wearing down a little, but that got me thinking- I want konstantin to know that here there is never a shift in religous stance here by either side, don’t expect one - but what I’m trying to say is that stance is not what I consider important, that is why I try to talk on a different level. Head-on clash goes nowhere - it just continues until the other side gets exhausted and leaves same as before, doesn’t change anything.

Konstantin, I’m trying to say there are more important things to challenge and spread than what people believe (I’m thinking attidudes, categorizations, etc); I’m agnostic, I’ve debated against both theists and atheists, I’m a double-edged blade who will turn against my current debate allies on certain levels where we have differences, but I can work in my philosophy on both by taking the backdoor route. The reason i’m adressing you more and not challenging the others so much is because in this case there is more of a need to emphasise these things with unified force than pick against each other, for now.

Bahamat can we have some teachings that involve ‘London Pride’ and death to lager drinkers?