ragman, same sex realations and its acceptance in society lead to the downfall of the greeks and romans.  there is a reason it is against the law in America as well.  there are many americans that need people to do the thinking for them.  it is called training.  just like children need their parents to do the thinking for them.  the rapeist, murderer, drunk driver, etc. need someone to do the thinking for them, because apparently they can not do it for themselves.  but if they had their way they could rape, murder etc, with no obligation or consequence.  i do not believe that anyone should make people believe a certain way.  it should not be against the law in america to be an atheist, a witch, a republican, a homosexual, but same sex marriage is a counterfit of the real thing.  marriage is what it is a covenant between a man and woman.  but just because you and i dont agree on that does not mean that we have to be enemies or that you have to be disgusted with me.  i am only expressing my beliefs.  i am not telling you what you should believe, only what i believe and live for and am willing to die for.  so what if i am a moron to you and most on this site.  i happen to enjoy being a person that deals with lifes struggles like the next guy, and also life joys.  i am not the most educated man in the world but i do have convictions and appreciate anyone who does so, even if they oppose mine....p.s. Jesus was more than a dude...peace out!

there are many americans that need people to do the thinking for them.  it is called training.  just like children need their parents to do the thinking for them.  the rapeist, murderer, drunk driver, etc. need someone to do the thinking for them, because apparently they can not do it for themselves.  but if they had their way they could rape, murder etc, with no obligation or consequence.

You are missing the point again. Those crimes INFRINGE on the rights and liberties of others, and should therefor be punished and curtailed by the government. Same sex marriage doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights or liberties.

THAT is the litmus test - Does the activity in question infringe on the rights, liberty, and safety of others without their consent?

In the case of same sex marriage, the answer is no.

same sex realations and its acceptance in society lead to the downfall of the greeks and romans

LOL!

That was a joke, right?  I mean, it didn’t have anything to do with Rome’s massive imperial expansion, Romans going “native,” Roman generals constantly trying to seize the empire by force, infighting between the citystates of Greece, 600+ years of Celtic incursions followed by the incursions of Germanic tribes.  Nope.  It was all due to the “moral decline” caused by homosexuality!  Geez.  Gibbons’ argument that the fall of Rome was due to Christianity was a more compelling argument.

Whew.  For a second there, I thought you were serious!

same sex realations and its acceptance in society lead to the downfall of the greeks and romans.

Bullshit.  Prove it.

there is a reason it is against the law in America as well.

Being gay isn’t against the law.  You can’t jail anyone for claiming to be married to someone of the same sex.  It’s a question of govt recognition of the same sex marriage. 

there are many americans that need people to do the thinking for them. it is called training. just like children need their parents to do the thinking for them. the rapeist, murderer, drunk driver, etc. need someone to do the thinking for them, because apparently they can not do it for themselves.

Children should be TAUGHT to think for themselves.  To understand WHY we have laws.  You’re just advocating raising children as sheep - obedience over understanding.  That just gives us adults who can’t think for themselves and can’t solve problems that they were not TRAINED to.  Which means we’ll have adults who don’t THINK for themselves, so how can they think for their kids?

The US did not become a world power b/c we are obedient and stick to only what we were taught, but b/c people were willing to take risks and think differently.

Kevin - thanks. You are right; I stand corrected.

Has anyone ever read this Onion article Bush Nightmare ?

It was written shortly after Bush took office and although a goof, almost everything in it has come true.  I think someone at the Onion must be a psychic.

brandi, same sex marriage DOES infringe on the rights of others.  it infringes on the rights of their children.  there is a reason that it takes a male and a female to produce a child.  homosexuality is a perversion, not a civil right.

Excuse me? Their “children”? Do you mean the children they might adopt or the hypothetical biological children they won’t be blessing the world with?

[sorry, wasn’t done]

...and what right of these children is being infringed upon?

the right to have a mother and father, the right that is also taken away by a lot of other circumstances other than same sex relationships.

randall - Children have the right to education, safety, and their necessities. Single and/or gay parents are not the ones infringing on those rights, and I am sick of hearing we are. Are you REALLY concerned about the children in this country? Then spend your energy keeping child molestors and abusers behind bars. Stop depending on the government to provide adequate education and donate books, time, and/or designated money to the schools. Teach divorced parents to make the divorce work for their kids where their marriage failed. Teach the children respect, compassion, and honesty. Hold our teachers in high regard and demand they are worth it. Work to better the foster care system.

If you REALLY want to help the kids in this country, there are a million better places to start than whining about whether they have a mother AND a father. Kids who grow up in a loving, safe home do just fine whether they have one parent or two parents of the same sex. It is only the grown-ups who “run from this truth.”

randall said:
“homosexuality is a perversion”

Dude you are fucked up, but you’re true to the mold of the garden variety Christian: hateful, judgmental, ignorant, proud of self, fearful, vitriolic! You really need to stop going to church and start witnessing life.

I tend to think hunting is a perversion, but you have a Constitutional right to be a hunter. There’s nothing I can do to deny you your right. But if I ever do have the right, in spite of people like you, to get married; just to show you how accepting I am, I’ll let you dance at my wedding. How’s that sound?

Sorry, Covie, I was posting at the same time you were and didn’t read what you said. Otherwise, I would have added “well said” to my post.

Really helping kids and loving others isn’t what some people are about, so I have my doubts that anything you said touched randall in any way other than to make him laugh.

I guess this forum has really surprised me, the more topics I read, the more it becomes “Our country is against us, look at this article, these guys are threatening our liberty.” I mean come on, who of you who so vehemently protest these infringements on your rights are actually doing something about it?  A few may respond saying “I wrote a letter to my senator saying this” or “I went and joined a protest against this”, but its not implausable that half of you have never even voted.  I dont know, I am not the best when it comes to rhetoric (as has been proven by some former posts of mine) But seriously, get off your asses and stop feeling sorry for yourselves, you act like you are so outnumbered by this swelling army of Christians and fundamentalists breathing down your throat.  Life in this country has become so easy, and its people so weak, that they have to go and dig up causes to fight for.  Here you are fighting for gay marriages.  Why dont you go fight for the homeless of our country?  Why not fight for peoples right to LIVE instead of their right not to have to see the 10 commandments in a courtroom.  Pick your battles people.

Most of you are of the belief that Christians as a whole want to burn the gays out of our country.  This is a horrible, horrible mistake, as you have been influenced by the views of a few.  As a follower of Christ, it is not my job to force you to do anything, just tell you what I already know to be true, and leave the decision up to you.  I dont want the joining of church and state, many Christians dont, because of that fact.  No one is going to respond to your beliefs if you force them into their lives.  The only thing that can possibly happen is this situation, the outrage of a few that their liberties are being threatened, which doesnt do anyone any good.

brock… what have i said that is hateful, judgemental, or any of the other things i will have to look up vitriolic.  i have not sentenced anyone to hell, only posted my views that it works best if a family is a husband and wife as far as children are concerned.  and you are wrong because covie is right about all of those things. and i am for those things as strongly as i am for a marriage being man/woman.  no i did not laugh at her post.  i am not some religious nut that gets off by staying up and night provoking homosexuals and athiests.  i have hurts, pains, frustrations, and sins just like the next person.  i simply believe that dads should stay committed to their wives, and marriage should be between a man and woman.  i work with children every day and see the pain that an absetee dad and sometimes mom causes.  i have friends that have recently decided on divorce and they admit for wrong reasons.  i have a friend who is homosexual, comes to my church and yet knows my views.  he know i do not hate him his homosexual friends know i do not hate him.  i know his pain of depression and a broken family and unacceptance.  i do not condemn the divorcee either.  i believe in mercy, grace and forgiveness.  i need it desperately myself.  i would love to be perfect and sinless, i have tried and failed miserably.  it is only by God’s grace that i am able to keep my great family intact.  just dont assume i hate you just because i disagree with you. and yes according to scripture, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, etc, etc, of which i am guilty of is a perversion… (perversion) to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right.  that is not meant to condemn the homosexual, if it does then i condem myself for past actions as well.  i do not wake up everyday looking to shove my beliefs down someones throat.  i wake up everyday and am fortunate to have a job where i can encourage people that have a lot more to worry about than if the republicans or Christians are stealing their rights.  They people i interact with everyday do not really care what i think about politics or constitutional ammendments they just care that i care...i love you brock…

Why dont you go fight for the homeless of our country? Why not fight for people’s right to LIVE instead of their right not to have to see the 10 commandments in a courtroom.

Because my ability to resist legislation that deliberately attacks a minority population is far more developed than my ability to attack a tax system that does not want to direct resources to those areas that would create economic and social justice.  In one case, I have to contend with a small group of people who have an extremist position, and rely on rhetoric that is comparatively easy to deconstruct.  In the second case, I am confronting an entire economic structure that funnels money away from social services, and into military and corporate expenditures.  I AM picking my battles.  People will accept the idea of gay marriages long before they accept the idea that society should divert tax funds toward fixing economic/social ills like homelessness.  If you don’t believe it, try running for office on a progressive ticket that advocates increased taxation of corporations, increased social spending on social services, and a slashed military budget.

you have been influenced by the views of a few

And if those few actually manage to pass legislation, I’m going to be influenced by them a lot MORE.  The time to resist IS now. 

I dont want the joining of church and state, many Christians dont

Then you’re not the problem.  Congratulations. 

I’ll join you in saving the homeless when I’ve managed to get American troops out of Iraq, established a just and equitable government in Afghanistan, ended poverty in Latin America, ensured that all of the American children who are in foster homes are adopted into loving families, and fixed the tax code so that 3 billion dollars a year doesn’t go uncollected from companies that are contracting with the American govt. I’m not saying, by any stretch, that homelessness is not an important issue.  It’s probably one of THE most important.

But that doesn’t mean that all the other struggles out there are insignificant.

I wish you the best of luck fighting homelessness.

I don’t have time to do a full response right now, but I do have a minor correction I need to make to one of my earlier comments in which I said “John Elway is an asshole.” I’d like to retract that statement as I was thinking of someone else entirely at the time he was brought up and not the person Randall was referring to. So, for the record, I don’t think John Elway is an asshole.

At least not yet.

Wow, Randall and Tommy are both missing the point.

Not that I have the energy to wade in, seeing how Randall, in particular, really just spews the same screed ad nauseum.

Thanks, Brock.

randall - You don’t seem to be the kind who throws judgment from some perceived moral high-ground, I’ll give you that. You seem to believe what you do simply because you just do. So try this one: I am neither homosexual nor atheist. ( I am not a Christian either.) I am however, a single mom who recognized gay marriage as a civil rights issue long before you and so many others grouped me into their supposed debauchery of children’s rights. My daughter is a great kid and doing better in school and in her life in general than most of her friends who were raised by a mother AND a father. I speak for no one else here, but I have noticed a correlation between believing someone else died for your sins and the inability to accept person responsibility, which then creates hostility and blame-placing mentality. The latter seems to have people refusing to see what is truly the cause of society’s ills, and so they place the blame on (for example) single and/or gay parents, and Hollywood. It’s wrong. I have said it once, and I will say it again: Children who grow up in loving, safe homes do just fine no matter if they were raised by one parent, a grandparent, or parents of the same sex. No one can say this is untrue.

Tommyvdp - I had too much fun and learned too many lessons the hard way to be a politician, so I do what I can from where I can, and civil rights is a worthy battle to my mind. I won’t sit here and checklist my personal achievements for you, but I will say this place is hardly a couch for armchair politicians to bitch about politics and Christians. The Main Bastard, Guest Bastard, and a few evil regulars most often leave sources and references for people to seek answers for themselves, so there is a real challenge to think outside the box here. Getting people to talk about, debate, and think about the issues brought up here is hardly doing nothing of importance. But I can see where that might sit wrong with you, as much as you would like people to just forget about this pesky, current civil rights issue.

Write on, Bastards and evil free-thinkers! :evillaugh:

john elway would have won 5 super bowls if he would have had a running back, and troy aikman would have never won a super bowl with another team....

covie...i am not saying that a single mom can not raise a child and do a great if not better job than a husband/wife team.  i have friends and family that are single moms and dad and do a great job....as a person that has chosen to follow Christ, you can never truly do so placing the blame on others.  gays, hollywood, mtv, janet jackson, republicans, democrats, teachers, coaches, are not my problem.  i am my problem.  believers like myself should actually live what they believe, the trouble is that most of us actually do not believe what we say we do.  i do not think it is possible to separate beliefs from actions.  i feel that you do what you believe....if christians lived out the bible, even if Jesus were not real, our world would be a better place.  There is not a problem with the teaching the problem lies within the heart of all man....that is why christianity can not be a religion.  religions deal mostly with action.  Jesus deals with the heart of man.  that is why it is so provoking.  religion says if you do good, dont smoke, drink, have illicit sex, cuss, diobey parents etc, you will be good.  Jesus says even if you do those things you cant be good.  he loves us and accepts us as we are, no matter if that way be a homosexual, husband in adultery, or judgemental believer.  he loves us and holds out hope to us everyday....

Fellow evil freethinker here, just wanting to wholeheartedly agree with this comment:

Getting people to talk about, debate, and think about the issues brought up here is hardly doing nothing of importance.

I think some people underestimate the power of increased thought, increased exposure (web), and increased conversation. The exchange of ideas and debates IS powerful. It does change, educate, and enlighten people (who care to learn). If something written here changes someones mind on an issue, or just adds extra support to an idea they already held...that IS something.

I tend to doubt that people (like those here) who put this kind of time and effort into online debate/communication would actually be of the sort too lazy to vote. IMO, simply being here seems to suggest the person is interested enough in the issues to do what they need to do when necessary...vote, write letters, protest, what-have-you.

I vote. I write letters. And I’d jump in my car and join a protest if an issue close to my heart came up. I also happen to volunteer my services to causes I support. I’ve donated web sites, ads, consultation, literature designs, flyers, bumper stickers, offer media contacts, pull in favors...you name it.

If it’s about animal rights, the separation of church and state, abortion rights, or the fourth amendment, I’m in. Call me.

Of course I can’t be a political activist all day every day, and I certainly can’t spend all my time doing free work, but I damn sure do what I can when the opportunity arises.

Here you are fighting for gay marriages.  Why dont you go fight for the homeless of our country?  Why not fight for peoples right to LIVE instead of their right not to have to see the 10 commandments in a courtroom.  Pick your battles people.

I do pick my battles. Very carefully, thank you. And I pick them because they fit with the way I would like to see things operate, and the injustices or roadblocks I see in the way. Doesn’t everybody? The plight of the homeless doesn’t happen to be a cause I’m going to pick up and run with. I certainly don’t want to turn this whole thread into a homeless debate, but, “Why not fight for peoples right to LIVE”...why? because I don’t happen to believe that right is in jeopardy, that’s why. If you want to argue about that, take it to the forums.

Point is, you are trying to belittle people because they don’t share the same hierarchy of political issues that you do. You seem to think we are lost in the minutia, living comfy lives and just “making up” things to be concerned about. And that really couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s just that some people don’t happen to share your views on what’s important to worry about.

randall, I may have come off a little strong when responding to your “homosexuality is a perversion” statement, but I honestly think you fail to understand why your remark was highly insulting. I think you and other professed Christians use intensely judgmental terms so often that the terms tend to lose their demeaning character with you. You easily define natural inclinations, like sexual interaction between persons not married, as perverse and seem to expect us to thank you for taking the time to decree the shamefulness of our actions. I don’t think you can feel empathy and connectedness to others you’re looking down on. And you know what; it doesn’t help to say “but I’m a sinner too” because it doesn’t wash. By your words, you believe we are naturally sinful and undeserving of Jesus’ love. You seem to think humans are hopelessly unworthy of life (barring supernatural dispensation) regardless of their actions and feelings. This, to me, means you lack sufficient respect for, and pity humanity.

You pass judgment with nearly every point you make and yet you do not see this. I honestly believe you see yourself as a wise and considerate man, yet many things you’ve spoken of suggest a highly regimented, narrowly focused and inflexible individual.

You said: 

...and yes according to scripture, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, etc, etc, of which i am guilty of is a perversion… (perversion) to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right. that is not meant to condemn the homosexual, if it does then i condem myself for past actions as well.

Does this mean you’ve had homosexual experiences, and if so, why do you feel these experiences you had are worth condemnation? Try to tell me without using scripture, because it’s possible that the Bible was written by humans to direct humans and if homosexuality is wrong, you should be able to provide incontestable humanistic reasons why.

You appear to have a job where you are able to instruct, and are valued by people. Demonstrate some of that Plato-like wisdom you likely dispense to others. I always appreciate a well considered point of view.

I like to think, as far as battles go, I’m more concerned and motivated with people respecting the basic rights of all individuals. Whenever I can affect laws and outlooks to serve individual liberties, I know that homelessness, starvation, disenfranchisement, inequality issues and other social ills will subsequently be addressed, and I bet I’ve done more grassroots lobbying in one year than Tommyvdp’s done in his whole life.

brock, sorry if i continue to come across as judgmental in a bad way.  nor do i intend or desire to be insulting.  no i have not had homosexual experiences. i was only lumping in other sexual perversions with it (lust, fornication, adultery etc.) not that sex issues are the only perversions.  my intent for posting on this site is honestly not to convert atheist to Christianity, or homosexual to heterosexual.  Not that i am ashamed to be doing so if i were.  i am simply trying to understand unbelievers in a better way.  understand, not to convert but to respect, appreciate and (forgive the mushiness) love.  as a Christian that is what i am instructed/commaned to do.  not by man, but by Christ.  you asked me to tell you something without using scripture, but i really cant, because what i believe and who i am is based on the word of God. do i understand it all?  no.  of what i do understand do i apply it perfectly? no.  but what i do know and believe is what i live by.  believe me there is a lot more to me and the bible than anti-homosexual rhetoric.  that is not what draws me to it.  the thing that interests me in Christ is his unconditional love, and his passion for me (us) forget the do’s and dont’s for a second.  but i am a man of devotion.  i give my self to my life’s mission.  i get involved with things that i am willing to die for.  i am not trying to be good, happy, successful.  those are not the reasons i serve Christ.  that is why i never tell anyone...serve Jesus and you will be happier.  the bible does not promise that.  preachers today promise health and wealth.  nothing wrong with the two, but those things do not intice me.  i want a cause, and to me there is no greater cause than that of christ.  someone will read this and accuse me of bible-thumping.  brock, i am just telling you about me.  a lot of guys on here get upset and use crazy language because radical right wing christians don’t accept certain things.  but very few that post here seem to accept me for who i am either.  i understand that i come across as insulting, though as said, not my intention.  but i dont think that is a christian, republican, heterosexual thing because it is in atheist, dem/ind., homosexuals as well.  it is called human nature.  the same thing that causes certain christians to fall back on the old, “your going to hell heathen” thing is the same thing that causes certain atheists to say fuck you christian and insult our intelligence. i honestly do not look down on others as routine.  if i find myself doing it, i correct it.  you said i was a highly regimented, narrowly focused and inflexible individual.  if that means i don’t compromise what i believe as truth, then i hope you are right.  if that means i only see it my way, then you are wrong.  i know areas of my thinking is flawed that is why i search for truth everyday.  This wont mean anything to you, but to me as a Christian Jesus said that if i abide in His word then i would be his disciple and then i would know the truth and the truth would make me free.  i am just searching for truth, and believe that God uses things to teach me, prepare me, strengthen me, expose me, correct me, etc.  that is why i do not believe i ran across this sit by mistake.  though it does appear view here are totally opposite of mine, there is still only a very thin line that separates all of us....i have bored you enough...later brock.

I think Randall has been doing a fine job here keeping you all riled up. But you all are ignoring some of the key points in this whole topic. Now, I’m sure that all you high-minded intellectual tolerant types will quickly brand me as a homophobe, but be assured that in no way am I attacking the idea of homosexuality. I’d be glad to, mostly because I’m very curious what definition of right and wrong you’re using when you get to the conclusion that homosexuality is right. But as has been said, it’s no skin off my nose if two men or two women (or for that matter 20 men and one women, or any other possible combination) want to have a committed relationship and live the rest of their days together. In point of fact, two men or two women in such a relationship assure me that no offspring will be brought forth to propagate the aberrance.

But let’s first get our terms straight. I don’t think that Bush will or can pass a law against “gay marriage”. The phrase is a contrivance, I think what you mean is a redefinition of the word marriage, or more likely the redefinition of the legal understanding of the word. No one, particularly Bush, could hope to prevent a gay person from marrying. However, he might get some legislation passed that prevent couples of the same sex getting the same legal considerations as a married couple.

As I mentioned, I’ve no problem with same sex unions. I think that if 2 gay people have chosen to commit to each other, fine. I’ve never understood why anyone that does not believe in God gets married, but I suppose it doesn’t hurt them much. Nothing is stopping 2 gay folks from making a lifelong commitment, they can swear it in front of God, their friends, a Justice of the Peace, whatever. So let’s not say this is about love or lifestyle, nothing stands in the way now, and nothing is likely to.

So what’s the problem? Legal standing. Documents are already in existence in every state that will allow any 2 people to enter into a financial and legal situation that is equal to marriage. Which is no different than having to obtain a license for marriage. Only 2 things aren’t granted by this: 1) Insurance companies do not have to recognize them as married for purposes of rates 2) The tax code does not recognize the marriage for purposes of tax. So in the end it’s all about the money. And the first thing I’d point out is that insurance is not suddenly going to cost us all less, nor is the government. The difference will be that some will pay less and some will pay more. If you’re not planning on having a same sex “marriage”, you will be of the people paying more.

Insurance companies are not bound to any equalities unless they can be proven. And it’s unlikely that same sex couples will produce the same benefits as heterosexual couples (longer, happier lives, higher levels of physical and mental health, recover from illness quicker, earn and save more money, are more reliable employees, suffer less stress, and are less likely to become victims of violence of any kind). If they are, then fine, I’ve no problem with them getting better rates on insurance. But until it is proven, I don’t think the government should tell the insurance companies they have to change the rates for anyone. Eventually, there will be proof, and the insurance companies will charge whatever they can justify, and it won’t matter whether we call it marriage or not, same sex couple will get a rate dependant on what their group statistics say they should.

Now we get to the sticky part: Taxes. Since I’m an advocate of flat tax, this presents little problem for me. I don’t think the government should be in the business of handing out monetary rewards when people behave in certain patterns. And that is what the tax code is all about. The government wants people to invest or save, so they give tax breaks for people who do. The government (in my opinion rightly) believes that marriage is the fundamental building block of a society. But I’d rather the government stay out of personal relationships completely, isn’t that what gay organizations want too? So instead of giving gay couples the same tax break as straight couples, why not end the whole mess and get rid of the tax code altogether?

I do find it wonderfully ironic that organizations that wanted to get the government out of the bedroom only a few years ago, are now demanding that it enter in. Perhaps even more ironic than you infinitely tolerant, free speech types that think “people like me” shouldn’t be allowed to speak in public.