To turn over to John Ashcroft for special attention?

To put a slightly less fearful spin on it:  maybe they’re just keeping records so they know whom not to grade?

But you’re right; the whole thing is frightening.  Grading kids on how well they parrot patriotism ...

So that you know, I’m not wild about forcing kids to pledge. What sort of meaning does a forced pledge have anyway?. I would say that when I was in school we did it every morning and I turned out OK, but I think that would spark the wrong debate. However, I remember that it was optional. I guess you could say that it created social pressure to comply, but I’m not so sure that’s a bad thing.  Isn’t that exactly how we learn to deal with society?

But the real question I have for you folks who are clearly against things like a momnet of silence and a pledge to the flag is this: What if we did not have any of that and some kid felt obligated through actual patriotism and belief in God, to begin their day by standing and giving the pledge to the flag and kneeling for prayer? Would he need to suffer for disrupting his class? What if the majority of the class did this too?

I am envisioning my high school, where all the rooms opened to the outdoors, and those doors were typically locked until a few minutes before the day started. So it’s not like I could arrived early and done it, I’d have had to use class time or been run over by kids racing to their desks.

You want to start your day by pledging allegiance and praying, do it at home BEFORE you get to school.  There is NO REASON to have to have it in the school unless you’re trying to get the other kids to do it along with you.

Instead of having kids memorize the Pledge to prove their patriotism, let’s have them memorize the Bill of Rights.  Now, THAT’S patriotic.  Some of their parents might even end up becoming familiar with it too.

For that matter, most public schools have a flagpole out front which are already used by Bible clubs for a morning prayer session. You could always recite the Pledge while you’re at it.

Incidentally, it’s not so much that I have a problem with the Pledge being recited (as long as kids can opt out) as much as I have a problem with the Pledge in it’s current format. Take it back before the 1954 “improvement” and I’d be happy.

Les, you went to school after the ‘54 change, but back when kids still were asked to recite it each morning (at least in all of the school districts I lived in). And that affected your religion how, exactly?

And it does rain and snow out, in Syracuse, where we lived for 7 years, most of school year was not a time you’d want kids outside standing around for long.

Geekmom, public displays of faith or patriotism should not be legal? Or you just feel they are socially inappropriate?

I’m down with the idea of memorization of the founding documents, and let’s not leave out the declaration. Oh, and my kids’ school DOES have them memorize them. But then, they don’t go to public school.

David, targeting a school as a venue for public proclamations of personal belief (whether it be patriotism, religion, politics, love for Jean-Luc Picard, or promotion of Skippy peanut butter) is just plain inappropriate.  No, it’s not illegal, nor should it be, but I have to question the motives of anyone who wants to do it in a place and time set aside for authoritative education.  It’s irrelevant to the state curriculum, as it is in the workplace when your job has nothing to do with your personal beliefs.

Why would someone FEEL the need to stick their faith out there and show it off, anyway?  It’s that obnoxious proselytizing reflex, is what it is.  Most people of other faiths that do NOT proselytize are perfectly happy to perform their rituals within the circle of their family and their community.  They don’t NEED to go out into public places and parade their faith and their patriotism in front of people who may feel differently.

In fact, there ARE cultures which consider such religious and patriotic grandstanding to be infantile and in poor taste.  Just sayin’.

What cultures, geekmom? I must confess ignorance and curiosity.

And school is not totally analogous to the workplace.

Moreover, I feel that I’m at my best when I start any activity with prayer. Which means just as a begin a new situation, like at the beginning of a meeting or the start of work, or even when faced for the first time with a new problem, I’ll often pause briefly and pray silently. I don’t make a big show of it. If you were watching me carefully, you would probably think I was just pausing reflectively, or even reading something.

(Les:) Incidentally, it’s not so much that I have a problem with the Pledge being recited (as long as kids can opt out) as much as I have a problem with the Pledge in it’s current format.

Considering my national background, it should not come as a surprise that I have problems with the pledge as such, regardless of religious ballast.

The short version is that post-war Germans adopted a taboo against patriotism itself. In the US, it is sometimes open to debate what is and what isn’t an acceptable expression of patriotism. The post-war German mind set, on the other hand, is to err on the side of caution and consider neither patriotism nor nationalism as acceptable. I simply cannot conceive of the equivalent of the pledge in a German classroom unless the Fourth Reich has come to pass - and I mean this quite literally.

(Geekmom:) In fact, there ARE cultures which consider such religious and patriotic grandstanding to be infantile and in poor taste.

Post-war Germany is one such culture. When I first learned of the pledge, I thought the person telling me was trying to pull my leg…

Hey David, I grew up in Fulton, just north of Syracuse (what happened to the Orangemen?!). We probably share many psychoses.

Elwedriddsche, I have a good friend who lives in Potsdam. I am amazed at the aversion to anything that resembles nationalism the German people have. It’s fascinating how patriotism can be morphed into nationalism.

We defended our country by attacking Iraq.... No WMDs? Was it patriotic? Nationalistic? If patriotism is fidelity to our fellow citizens, then why is it necessary to pledge allegience to a flag?.... A flag is a symbol, symbols can be hijacked. Ah! WMDs are symbols too! Thus, the best defense is a strong offense!

There’s not much logic there but it feels good. Rush is right! (Rush is high).

Elwedriddsche, you are a profoundly even-keeled sonuvagun.

In Oz, there’s a fair amount of disdain for flag-waving jingoism and the like.
The politicians like it, but your average person in the street is likely to think, “Get your hand off it, you wanker!”
Ever heard a crowd of Aussies singing Advance Australia Fair? :chuckle:

maryh, why, thank you

My fundamental problem with patriotism is that most people practice it like religion - i.e. within their personal comfort zone. They focus on the “good stuff”, while conveniently glossing over the not-so-great issues. If Germans want to make their country a better place to live in, but forego flag waving, then that form of quiet patriotism is just fine with me.

Nothing makes you appreciate your home country more than being away from it…

Okay, I’ll get off my soap box now.