Terri Schiavo lost anyway.

Lost what, Kristen? She won. She won by finally being able to DIE (which is what she wanted). There was not a thing left in this mortal coil for her, no matter what her wishes were, and I defy you to name exactly what it is she is going to miss out on...bearing in mind, she had no cerebral cortex and as such, no consciousness.

She “died” 15 years ago. She was never going to recover from that amount of brain trauma, do you not understand that? There’s no therapy, no treatment, no amount of time that’s going to reverse or even slightly improve damage that massive.

So tell me what she lost. No, I will...any dignity she had in her final demise.

As for conflict of interest, Terri’s parents sold the list of email addresses of people who had donated them money to a spammer to get more money.
To me, this indicates a much stronger conflict of interest on her parents’ behalf.

Kristen:

You raise a valid point with respect to the damages awarded in the civil malpractice case.  Since you said that she “changed her mind,” I’m assuming that there is deposition or trial testimony from the civil malpractice case in which Michael said “Terri wanted rehabilitation ad nauseam.” Please post up the exact quote from the testimony you are relying upon to make that statement and a cite to the source document.

Much Appreciated,

All this wrangling over Michael’s intentions has reminded me of a painful experience many years ago when my father died. 

He made me executor of his estate, which was fairly complicated (at least for me) but I found a good attorney (not an oxymoron) and we went to work.  I tried so hard... I felt a profound duty to honor my father’s wishes to the very best of my ability.  My grief at his passing did not make it any easier.

Oddly, he had once told me, referring to his sister (my aunt), “Watch out for that one.” I didn’t know what he meant at the time as I’d always gotten along fine with her.

She became more and more angry at everything I did.  She refused to let my cousins communicate with me.  She accused me of every kind of malfeasance and awful intentions. She objected to the attorney’s fees.  As the estate closed she wrote me a long, scathing letter saying she never wanted to communicate with me again.

I spiralled down into a dark depression from which I did not emerge for over 5 years. It’s hard to say how long it lasted because recovery was a gradual process.  Thank goodness for my brother and sister who were always kind to me.

The lesson here for me is that if someone believes you have bad intentions, nothing you do will convince them otherwise. The worst possible interpretation is assigned: every single thing you do and say is proof positive.  “You only did that because...” of some nefarious hidden purpose.

I have a hunch Michael would understand what that feels like.  (I’m applying this to Michael and not Terri’s parents only because his role as grieving fiscal agent is more analogous to what I went through.  Her parents had their own problems, to be sure.)

Sounds like you went through hell, DOF. Can you imagine what it would’ve been like if it had been made into a media circus and folks like Kristen decided to stick their noses into it? Yikes!

Kristen continues to blow a lot of hot air without backing up her claims with citations. May as well give up on her as she’s just another loon in a long line of them.

Kristen,

“It didn’t matter whether Terri wanted to remain on life support or wanted to receive life support.â€? I’m sure she appreciates how little she matters to you.  Go back to your video games.

I think you have grossly misread Consi.  He wasn’t noting our apathy towards Terri Schiavo, he was noting that most of us here would have respected her wishes either way whether she wanted to live or die. 

It’s just that most of us either believe she wanted to die or that it was unclear what she wanted and, as Consi noted, that in Florida in those cases it is decided by the courts what happens.  The court, actually numerous courts, found that the evidence suggested that the tube should be removed.  As such, especially considering the fact that Schiavo’s brain was so atrophied and as such she might as well have been brain dead, the thing to have done would have been to remove the tube and allow her to die in peace.

DoF- a very touching story, and very apposite.  It reminded me of a quote from Stephen Jay Gould:

The more important the subject and the closer it cuts to the bone of our hopes and needs, the more we are likely to err in establishing a framework for analysis.

“It didn’t matter whether Terri wanted to remain on life support or wanted to receive life support.â€? I’m sure she appreciates how little she matters to you.  Go back to your video games.

Kristen, I’m not sure how much anybody with a liquid brain can appreciate anything.  I mean, really, assuming you have most of your brain, you cannot even appreciate the facts as clearly set out.  And I’m still not buying your claim to any legal background.  Loon alert, indeed.

Does all of this remind anybody else of the Monty Python dead parrott routine?  “This bird couldn’t ‘fwoom’ if you..... This bird is no more.  He has ceased to be.”

It’s just that most of us either believe she wanted to die or that it was unclear what she wanted and, as Consi noted,

It doesn’t matter what you believe. 

In fact it didn’t matter what Terri Schiavo believed.

The fact is she was never properly represented in court because the two people who impartially represented her wishes (guardians ad litem) were dismissed.  They both found Michael Schiavo’s version of her wishes to be in question and recommended further investigation.

“I’m not sure how much anybody with a liquid brain can appreciate anything.”

aaahhh.  Certain reason for euthenasia.  Also, make note to deny people with “liquified brains” representation in court when their starvation and dehydration are ordered.  Particularly when discerning their wishes and with holding treatment and therapy.  Put all “liquified brain” people in the hospice for years and years - it is just not a big deal.

I think I understand your point now.  Thanks for clarifying.

The fact is she was never properly represented in court because the two people who impartially represented her wishes (guardians ad litem) were dismissed.  They both found Michael Schiavo’s version of her wishes to be in question and recommended further investigation.

I think you are confusing “being represented” in court with “prevailing” in court.

She was extremely well represented in court.

and you simply either fail to understand the positions or flatly refuse to accept them, either way your wrong.

The courts actually upheld the law very well for once.

Kristen,

Oh come on.  Now I have to get involved in this debate.  To say that Schiavo didn’t get her chance in court is ridiculous.  She got more attention by the courts than most people who have a brain.  To say that she slipped through the cracks is the worst kind of bullshit and you know it.  If you were making a case that the judgment of the courts were wrong perhaps I would consider your position but to say that Schiavo didn’t receive adequate attention?  C’mon she had members of the Senate and the House advocating that her feeding tube be reinserted.  If that’s not representation I don’t know what is.

As nunyabiz has stated:

The Schindlers have lied continuously, have changed their story several times when ever it suited them.

When Mrs. Schiavo’s parents stated, and with straight faces, that after x number of years in a PVS Terri spoke! - Saying, ”I want to live!” - I lost all interest in their side of the argument as any credibility they may have had was completely gone.

And DOF, I’m so sorry you had to endure that with your father. For my brother way back in 1986, who was executor, it was much smoother. My mother died at age 47. It was unspoken at the time of my mother’s last hospitalization yet completely understood that she would not want to be kept alive. She was in a similar state as Mrs. Schiavo as her cancer had spread to and taken over her brain. Her feeding tube was removed completely unnoticed by potentially dissenting family members and her morphine drip was increased. She died peacefully, painlessly and precisely how she would have wanted in such a position.

All the credit for this goes to understanding doctors who are savvy and who know how to ask the right questions of the proper people to bring about what would have occurred naturally albeit devastatingly painfully prior to the advances of medical technology.

“I’m not sure how much anybody with a liquid brain can appreciate anything.�

I think I understand your point now.  Thanks for clarifying.

You twit.  No, you do NOT understand my point.  My point was that Terri was physically incapable of “appreciating” anything.  Nowhere in my post did I advocate euthanasia for every brain-damaged person.  Your ability to extrapolate a conclusion from what simply isn’t there is damn amusing.

Your position that Terri did not get adequate representation is absurd.  Congress, the governor, the president, scores of attorneys fighting on behalf of the Schindlers is not “adequate” representation?  I will grant you that these representatives are certainly not the brightest or most intelligent folks in the world, but “represent” her they did.

Maybe the “problem” is that she was represented by hundreds of people like you - unable to look at the facts and apply common sense and reason.

Your ability to extrapolate a conclusion from what simply isn’t there is damn amusing.

Though not amusing, it is precisely what Mrs. Schiavo’s parents have been doing for 15 years.

Florida senator’s aide resigns over Schiavo memo

The memo—first reported by ABC News on March 18 and by The Washington Post and The Associated Press two days later—said the fight going on then over removing Schiavo’s feeding tube “is a great political issue ... and a tough issue for Democrats.”

To say that Terri was represented by Congress, her parents, and right-to-lifers is to assume that she wanted to stay alive.  As the court found, and is more probable, she was only truly represented by her husband.

“She was extremely well represented in court”

She never had impartial representation.  The only impartial representation she had was the guardians ad litem (spelled righte? grammar right?) who both - years apart - recommended further testing, therapy and investigation into Terri Schiavo’s wishes.  Those recommendations were ignored.

Politics aside...A disabled individual - regardless of the disability - deserves representation in the event there is dispute as to that persons wishes.  Further, a disabled individual deserves to be placed in a facility designed to meet the treatment, care and therapy needs of that individual.  Further, a disabled individual who has won a judgement on the basis of funds needed for future care and treatment deserves to have those funds expended to that purpose.

Terri Schiavo was denied all of that.

Kristen on 4/07/05 at 09:35 AM wrote the following… • Permalink
Kristen pic

“She was extremely well represented in court�

She never had impartial representation.  The only impartial representation she had was the guardians ad litem (spelled righte? grammar right?) who both - years apart - recommended further testing, therapy and investigation into Terri Schiavo’s wishes.  Those recommendations were ignored.

Politics aside...A disabled individual - regardless of the disability - deserves representation in the event there is dispute as to that persons wishes.  Further, a disabled individual deserves to be placed in a facility designed to meet the treatment, care and therapy needs of that individual.  Further, a disabled individual who has won a judgement on the basis of funds needed for future care and treatment deserves to have those funds expended to that purpose.

Terri Schiavo was denied all of that.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Facts are simply meaningless to you, eh Kristen?  Maybe you should “go back to school, missy.”

spelled righte?

umm… no.

Sorry guys, I just couldn’t resist. 

She never had impartial representation.  The only impartial representation she had was the guardians ad litem (spelled righte? grammar right?) who both - years apart - recommended further testing, therapy and investigation into Terri Schiavo’s wishes.  Those recommendations were ignored.

Bullshit.  The trial court order from March 2000 notes that of the 3 doctors weighing in on the question of whether more swallow tests should be done, the 2 who thought so (unsurprisingly, testifying on behalf of the Schindlers) had only spent 25-45 minutes observing Terri Schiavo, and based their opinion on the fact that she didn’t drool.  Additionally, the credibility of one of the physicians “was compromised” by his failure to “concede that her treating physician would be in a better position than he” to give a diagnosis as to “when she would stabilize after the 1990 cardiac arrest.”

Of the third doctor:

“The uncontroverted evidence from Dr. Barnhill was that the ward had been administered swallowing tests in 1990, 1991 and 1992 with the earliest test having been done at Bayfront Medical Center.  This test resulted in a finding that she would not be a future candidate.  The last of these tests was done at Largo Medical Center and resulted in a finding that there was no swallowing reflex initiated and that the liquid went nowhere.  Thereafter, and annually from 1993 through 1996 or 1997, the ward had a speech pathologist examine her and the finding was that she could not be rehabilitated in this regard and that there was a high risk of aspiration.”

It goes on to say that Dr. Barnhill physically examined Terri Schiavo several times and thoroughly reviewed her medical records, and “testified that he agreed with the prognosis of the treating physician, Dr. Gambone, that there was no point in doing another swallowing study since she had not changed since the last study.”

If she “failed” the swallowing tests for seven years, from 1990 through 1997, how could anyone possibly expect there to be “passing” results years later?  No physician in his right mind would expose a patient with “high risk of aspiration” to more swallowing tests when it’s been proven over and again that the patient cannot properly swallow.

The Schindlers’ denial of Terri’s condition in the face of overwhelming medical evidence was simply not enough to support their case.  A slew of judges agreed, and rightly allowed her legal guardian and next of kin to prevail.  This is not about improper representation of the disabled; it’s about the Schindler family’s inability to accept the truth that their daughter was as fucked up as she was and that her husband, NOT THEY, as legal next of kin, was responsible for making decisions regarding her care AND in asking the Court to determine what her wishes would be regarding her treatment.

To say that Terri was represented by Congress, her parents, and right-to-lifers is to assume that she wanted to stay alive.  As the court found, and is more probable, she was only truly represented by her husband.

Exactly, GeekMom.  Her parents and their supporters represented only their own shameless selves and interests. 

As a parent, I cannot begin to imagine what her parents’ ultimate motive was in hawking their damaged daughter’s body and image to the lunatics. Their behavior is contemptible.  They squandered any sympathy or compassion one may have felt for them early on in this spectacle.

The whole fiasco was the worst display of FundyNutjobism Iv personally ever witnessed.

What these lunatics have done to Michael Schiavo & family is criminal to say the least, horrible disgusting & macabre.

Every damn one of them should be institutionalized, netted, Jacketed, & thrown into a padded room with a 24/7 fog of Thorozine.

There is no way people this delusional should be allowed to walk the streets freely.

As carefully and plainly as Kristen has been told the facts of this case backed up with verifiable evidence she still is utterly incapable of understanding & or accepting it.

This can only be classified as Cognitive Dissonance. Which is a classic symptom of a Fundy.

“Until and unless there is objective, fresh, mutually agreed upon closure regarding measurable and well accepted scientific bases for deducing Theresa’s clinical state, Theresa will not be done justice. There must be at least a degree of trust with respect to a process that the factions competing for Theresa’s best interest can agree. To benefit Theresa, and in the overall interests of justice, good science, and public policy, there needs to be a fresh, clean-hands start. The Schindlers and the Schiavos are normal, decent people who have found themselves within the construct of an exceptional circumstance which none of them, indeed, few reasonable and normal people could have imagined. As a consequence of this circumstance, extensive urban mythology has created toxic clouds, causing the parties and others to behave in ways that may not, in the order of things, serve the bestinterests of the ward.In Re: Theresa Marie Schiavo, Incapacitated Report to Gov. Jeb Bush and the 6thFlorida Judicial Circuit 1 December 2003 Jay Wolfson, as Guardian Ad Litem to Theresa Marie Schiavo Page 34 of 38”
The report

ORGANIZATIONS AND INDIVIDUALS

JOINING AS AMICI CURIAE

NOT DEAD YET

ADAPT

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES

CENTER FOR SELF-DETERMINATION

CENTER ON HUMAN POLICY AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY

REV. RUS COOPER-DAWDA

DISABILITY RIGHTS EDUCATION & DEFENSE FUND

HALF THE PLANET FOUNDATION

HOSPICE PATIENTS? ALLIANCE

DR. JAMES HALL

NATIONAL COUNCIL ON INDEPENDENT LIVING

NATIONAL SPINAL CORD INJURY ASSOCIATION

SELF-ADVOCATES BECOMING EMPOWERED

TASH

(formerly The Association for the Severely Handicapped)

WORLD ASSOCIATION OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

WORLD INSTITUTE ON DISABILITY

BRIEF OF AMICI CURIAE

First GAL report

Read the conclusion.

The religous right was represented.  The “right to die” people were represented. 

Terri Schiavo’s representation was ignored.  That is not due process.

notes that of the 3 doctors weighing in on the question of whether more swallow tests should be done, the 2 who thought so (unsurprisingly, testifying on behalf of the Schindlers) had only spent 25-45 minutes observing Terri Schiavo, and based their opinion on the fact that she didn’t drool.

That only speaks to her medical condition - not her wishes.