Tell Me How I Harm You And Maybe I’ll Stop!

Posted by Brock on Sunday, October 17, 2004 at 07:34 PM. Read 2225 times. Tags: , , ,
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A couple of weeks ago, in Setsuna’s entry, Answers in Genesis indeed, our very own commenter Rev. Eric Ragle lamented:

“It’s funny to be (sic) that the liberal left claims they want tolerance for all, but by doing so they are intolerant to Christians. And that’s not to imply I know anyone here’s political agenda, just making a point.”

He included five links to reports of Christian’s being persecuted and the same individual showed up in each story: one Michael Marcavage, head of Philadelphia based Repent America.

Now, I understand that some of this nation’s most important social advances have been accomplished via protest, and I have no aversion to groups peaceably assembling; I’ve done so myself on occasion. But you need to be a disenfranchised entity to get my pity or my support. Followers of Christianity are usually not such an animal and often are even the oppressor. So, I wasn’t surprised to see, when reading a report titled TESTING THE FAITH :11 Christians arrested at homosexual event, that Mr. (is HE a Reverend TOO) Marcavage is still up to his same tricks.

According to a statement from Life and Liberty Ministries, on Sunday the Christian protesters were “preaching God’s Word” to the crowd of people attending the outdoor Philadelphia OutFest event and displaying banners with biblical messages.

Not long after the group began their activity, members of the Pink Angels, which the statement describes as “a militant mob of homosexuals,” confronted the protesters and attempted to drown out their message with whistles, while hiding the signs with large sheets of pink Styrofoam.

“Even though the Christians obeyed all laws, city ordinances and lawful requests by the Philadelphia police officers on hand,” said Life and Liberty Ministries, “they were promptly and without warning arrested and hauled off to jail, where they spent 21 hours before being released on Monday morning.”

Eight charges were filed against the protesters, including three felonies and five misdemeanors. The charges were: criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment of another person, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct, and obstructing highways.

“This is one of the most remarkable and unlawful actions by police that I have ever witnessed,” said Michael Marcavage, director of Repent America. “Their blatant disregard of the law by allowing hecklers to impede our way, block our message and then arrest us, is inexcusable, especially by police officers who are specially trained to protect civil rights.

“Christians are now being labeled as ‘haters’ and any speech that homosexuals perceive to be intimidating, such as our Christian witness at OutFest, makes them a prime target for ‘hate crimes legislation.’”

I don’t have pictures of the event but I would be willing to bet that Repent America protesters had signs suggesting that God hates homosexuals and that they will burn in hell, and this would make their assembly confrontational. With hundreds of thousands of churches in this country, all protected by the Constitution, assisted through tax codes and accepted as valuable, even necessary, expressions of human community, it’s hard to imagine these people don’t have enough outlets in order to preach and assemble. Why would they need to go to such places as OutFest when their religion is given so many opportunities to be expressed?

I suspect Repent America, and so many other organizations like it, just seek to be antagonistic. I can’t imagine how my sexual identity and the benign ways I express it harms others. I certainly have no desire to be a negative influence on American society. Truth be told, I have many of the same aspirations, dreams and hopes for a successful existence that others have. I don’t enjoy being part of a special class of individuals. I would much rather fade into the surroundings but present circumstances won’t allow it. Right now I need to speak up for equal rights and equal acceptance. But I won’t go into Churches with signs saying “Christians are clueless idiots who spread hate and intolerance!” or “AIDS is nature’s way of punishing Christians!” I’ll simply use my resources for communication and respectfully present the subject and my views, as long as it hasn’t been covered enough, in forums and blogs such as SEB.

I have little patience with people like Vice-President Cheney pretending that private issues (see GeekMom’s entry) were needlessly publicly exposed. His and his daughter’s lives are in the public domain because they have made public statements concerning gay issues. You can’t thank one debate antagonist for mentioning the existence of a gay daughter then turn around and chastise another for doing the same. Well, you can but then it just seems like more of the baseless “I’m being abused” bullshit that people like Eric Ragle bring to the discussion.

So here is my challenge - Prove to me that my lifestyle is dangerous to you personally. Please avoid using arguments such as pedophiles seeking equal rights because I find pedophilia just as abhorrent as most of you do. Nor do I support making love to or allowing marriage between a man and a donkey. Just show me how I compromise your chances for health and happiness, by loving and making love to, and even wishing I could marry another man.

If it’s just an attitude adjustment that you need and then I will not threaten you, by all means search for a way to adapt that attitude. After all, it could be that you are harming yourself more than I ever could.

Source: From that bastion of impartial reporting: WorldNetDaily
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40929

Comments:

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nowiser United States Posted on 10/18/2004 at 06:56 PM

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I tend to find that folk usually assume that *those* protesters are violent troglodytes who deserve a bit of time in the clink, while *our* protesters are being picked on by the evil police ...

I chose not to address this possibility in my first post, but it -did- occur to me.  I prefer to think of them as violent troglodytes who got their *just desserts,* however, and will continue to think this until I’m confronted with evidence to the contrary.

Because it’s an assumption that makes me warm and tingly inside.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Brock United States Posted on 10/18/2004 at 07:28 PM

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Oh well, I tried to save you Nowiser, but if you believe it’s advisable to kick fundies in the head, I haven’t been led wrong by you yet. Look out fundie heads!

And .rob, clever comment once again but I’m going to have to investigate YOU now, dude. A gay Jew who looks like Luke Skywalker...I don’t think so!

Just answer the man’s questions when he calls your cell.

.rob adams United States Posted on 10/18/2004 at 07:39 PM

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And just what does a Jew look like?

Brock United States Posted on 10/18/2004 at 08:00 PM

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Not “having, for the lack of a more succinct term, distinctly Aryan features...”

All Jews look like Jakob Dylan or Yasmine Bleeth, don’t they?

Hey seriously, don’t pay any attention to me. I’m a mutt!

GeekMom United States Posted on 10/19/2004 at 11:47 AM

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Too, I’ve been meaning to tell you how much I like your Gravatar. The glasses you chose really compliment the shape of your face. Why did it take you saying something nice to me before I would tell you that?

Awww, thanks, Brock—I’m thinking of getting contacts, actually.  What do you think?  *bat*bat* I was wondering what it would take to get some sugar from you ... wink

.rob and Les, her name is spelled MADALYN Murray O’Hair.  ( And I would have to have had Les when I was FOUR, for crying out loud.)

.rob, you slay me.  No, really, you do.  You slay me.  *urk*

maryh United States Posted on 10/19/2004 at 08:22 PM

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From GeekMom:

Brock, we’re all gay here, if that’s what it takes. ("Nous sommes tous Americains.") Don’t worry about it.  Many of us have been on the receiving end of discrimination and/or violence for SOMETHING we are, and if we don’t speak up for one group, we’re likely to be next.  It IS about human rights.  If we only care about our own little issues, we’re not moral humans.

Well said, GM.  If ever there was time in American history when empathy was called for, it’s now.  (And I should know, because I’m over 170 years old.  Spite has kept me young!)

Hey to GeekMom!  Long time, muh lay-dee!

GeekMom United States Posted on 10/20/2004 at 09:27 AM

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[T]hat’s one reason why I hate it when people who have public attention usually only get behind an issue because it affects them personally. Take Christopher Reeve and stem cell research for an example - Why did it take personal injury before he would become so vocal about it’s potential benefits?

I was thinking about this some more, Brock, and to be fair, there are SO many issues out there that one could possibly pick that you can’t fault someone for not doing any particular one.  And once you’re affected by an issue, you understand it better from the inside (as Reeve did with his paralysis).  I don’t fault him for getting that motivation; I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

Warren Koch United States Posted on 10/27/2004 at 04:34 PM

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I’ve always had to question the motives and indeed sexuality of dudes who waste so much time and energy on the moot issue of where another guy sticks his pecker.  Who cares?  As for the marriage thing, I’ve been married, and I think gays are crazy to want the “right” to shackle themselves legally like that.  That said, if someone actually WANTS to pay higher taxes, who am I to complain?

As for “christians” being persecuted, some feel that they can be as disruptive as they want, and then hide behind the fact that they were “only reading the Bible.” How would they feel if a Muslim, or a Wiccan stood up in a christian service and started “preaching”? Wouldn’t that be freedom of religion?

Some conservatives decide “civil disobedience” is a great thing, until they get arrested.  Then they whine about how they’re being persecuted.  Where would the world be if true christians, like Dr. Martin Luther King, were as wimpy as this guy Mercavage? King knew that civil disobedience is only effective if you shoulder the burden and accept the consequences of your actions.  Mercavage is always in the news. He forces confrontations with the police and gets himself arrested a couple of times a year.  Then he sues the police for “damages,” and tries to extort money from them. He will not take any responsibility for his actions. In my opinion, that makes him no more than a punk.

Rev. Eric Ragle United States Posted on 11/22/2004 at 09:38 PM

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Hello and God bless! Just happened by because my name turned up in Google. I hope everyone on your end of the web has a pleasant Thanksgiving.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 11/22/2004 at 10:19 PM

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Now wait a minute. Did we have an Eric Ragle imposter a few weeks ago? The one that promised to get with some answers after a trip?

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

zilch Austria Posted on 11/23/2004 at 07:25 AM

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And what does he mean by “your end of the web”?  I wonder.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Les United States Posted on 11/23/2004 at 07:36 AM

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Same guy near as I can tell. He links to the same Christian Fundy website and is a big fan of “Dr.” Kent Hovind. I suspect he gave up on the other thread and only stopped by this one because he was Ego-Googling and happened to have us pop up as a link. (His name does appear in Brock’s entry.)

In fact, if you type Eric Ragle into Google the first two links are to his website, then his blogger profile, then his Flickr photos, etc. and then the 9th and 10th links are, you guessed it, us fine folks here at SEB. Interestingly, both are links through the alternate templates I set up for testing purposes. grin

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All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
All I know is my steak tastes better when I take my steak tastes better pill
-- I Feel Fantastic, Jonathan Coulton

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 11/23/2004 at 07:42 AM

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Ah. I don’t particularly care if it’s the same guy or not, the message simply sounded odd in my sleep-deprived state. There is some unfinished business in the other thread, but perhaps it’s for the best to let it slide.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 11/23/2004 at 07:44 AM

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And what does he mean by “your end of the web??  I wonder.

I was tempted to make a snide remark, but then it occured to me that “his end of the web” is not something I want to indirectly contemplate before breakfast.

 Signature 

Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Brock United States Posted on 11/23/2004 at 08:03 PM

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As Michael Marcavage said: “Christians are now being labeled as haters” and one visit to Eric Ragle’s website will tell you why they often should be. This Christianity business is strange in that it breeds some of the most imbecilic, most hardened, least thoughtful outlooks I’ve ever known.

I don’t understand how it wins so many converts and then I consider that humans love to condescend. Too many times the quickest way to self promotion is through the degrading of others. It isn’t a humbling religion at all. In fact it seems opposite in practice to what it teaches.

It is also a schizophrenic religion that encourages victim identification and I don’t know why it’s followers can’t see how detrimental to society it has become.

Maybe it had potential to enlighten and strengthen societies at one time, but now it just seems antithetic and counterproductive to beneficent social development.

***Dave United States Posted on 11/24/2004 at 11:47 PM

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I don’t understand how it wins so many converts and then I consider that humans love to condescend. Too many times the quickest way to self promotion is through the degrading of others.

Indeed.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 11/25/2004 at 01:21 AM

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one visit to Eric Ragle’s website

I may just keep it bookmarked for comic relief.

Just to offer something for discussion, here’s an anecdotal observation. When browsing atheist websites that elaborate their position, even though they reach the same conclusions for roughly the same reasons, I get the distinct impression that they’ve thought things through themselves. When I’m looking at “those other sites”, I feel like I’m in an echo chamber. The same “arguments” appear repeated almost verbatim all over the place.

What does this signify?

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

zilch Austria Posted on 11/25/2004 at 02:22 AM

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When I’m looking at “those other sites?, I feel like I’m in an echo chamber. The same “arguments? appear repeated almost verbatim all over the place.

What does this signify?

Three guesses, elwed.  Uh, better make that one guess.

***Dave- what you said what Brock said.  The tried and true point-at-someone-else (and-poke-them-with-sharp-sticks) method.  Isn’t this mentioned in the Bible somewhere?  Matthew 7:3-5 for instance?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Lots of good advice in the Bible, if you know where to look.  On the other hand, probably most fundamentalists consider themselves free of hypocricy and thus qualified to advise (berate, threaten, etc.) the rest of us.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Brock United States Posted on 11/25/2004 at 03:18 AM

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When I’m looking at “those other sites?, I feel like I’m in an echo chamber. The same “arguments? appear repeated almost verbatim all over the place.

What does this signify?

Because they are discouraged to think for themselves. It’s a self propagating religion.
Often, the only way you can join the club is if you accept the story line and spread it to others.

I think my first step away from Christianity was when I was told about Hell (the endless burning one). I just couldn’t rectify the description of a loving God really offering that option. That’s when it truly began to look like scare tactics to me and I couldn’t respect a God who had to stoop so low to get followers.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

***Dave United States Posted on 11/25/2004 at 12:03 PM

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When I’m looking at “those other sites?, I feel like I’m in an echo chamber. The same “arguments? appear repeated almost verbatim all over the place.  What does this signify?

Well, there’s a few thousand years of Christian and thought and philosophy that’s been developed, so it would be surprising if folks came up with something completely original.

It’s also true that certain ideas will seem more fresh and relevant when they mesh with your own than if they don’t.

And, certainly, to the extent that Christian thought is still the mainstream, it’s easier to “get there” (or “stay there") without much self-examination. (I expect, over time, as other (ir)religious lines o thought become more common, the same thing will occur there).

I don’t know if it being still the mainstream makes it easier to simply consider it a monolithic whole, consisting of similar-believing, -(un)thinking, propagandized drones.  I dunno.  I’ve been discouraged from thinking about such things.

GeekMom United States Posted on 11/25/2004 at 01:19 PM

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To some extent, it was a rhethorical question.

Clearly, a traditional dating back many centuries makes the possibility of original thought a remote one. I find myself, however, complaining about the same thing good old David did - not using their own words.

Anyway, I’m just a bit miffed about difficulties in communicating with some folks. Back to the regularly scheduled program…

Kelly United States Posted on 12/02/2004 at 01:58 AM

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>When I’m looking at “those other sites?, I feel >like I’m in an echo chamber. The same “arguments? >appear repeated almost verbatim all over the >place.  What does this signify?

Maybe it signifies we’re studying the same book, or quoting the same Author?

I’ve enjoyed reading these posts.

Brock United States Posted on 12/02/2004 at 05:16 AM

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Maybe it signifies we’re studying the same book, or quoting the same Author?

You may be but you still can’t agree on absolute truths. If you could reach a consensus, that would help to lend credibility to your beliefs but the best you usually have to offer is denominational specific biases.

I’ve got an idea: let’s chuck this contradicting and illogical religion called Christianity and create a new set of explanations for why we are here and why we act as we do. Lets call this collective of observations/conditions Abler-Humanism and accept that every individual is already an allowed member of it for now and ever more or for at least as long as the species endures.

Life itself makes no value judgments; humans do, and those are usually assessments that reveal more about the values of the person making the assessments than about the reality of what is being assessed.

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“At six I was left an orphan.  What the hell is a six year old supposed to do with an orphan?”
Unknown

zilch Austria Posted on 12/02/2004 at 05:24 AM

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Maybe it signifies we’re studying the same book, or quoting the same Author?

Yes and no.  More often than not, it signifies that the same tired old arguments are trotted out by both sides until an impasse of some sort is reached, at which point one or both sides either give up or start a food fight.

Both sides are often guilty of simply quoting sources they imagine are authoritative, without really understanding the issues.  Unfortunately, both sides of the argument are rather difficult to understand, and need some hard brainwork, which most are unwilling to do.  But there is an assymetry in the difficulties.

The creationist position is difficult, because there are so many ways of selecting and interpreting the rather contradictory and allegorical Biblical passages that might be thought to apply.  The evolutionist position is difficult, because it is complex, like any science. The caricature of it presented by creationists does not reflect a real understanding of it.

The impasse usually reached is that of the doctrinal versus the scientific view of truth: doctrinal truth is eternal, inerrant, and not subject to revision; while scientific truth is provisional, approximate, and subject to revision.

Most of the creationist attacks on evolution stem from a basic misconstrual of the way science works- they point to errors (Piltdown man is a perennial favorite) or gaps (exactly how life started) and say the whole ball of wax is a wash.

But this is exactly how science works- it proceeds by fits and starts, makes mistakes, corrects them and goes on.  The creationists, however, start with The Truth, and try to squeeze and bend everything to fit this preordained idea.  Not that scientists are not guilty of this, too- they’re only human, and sometimes defend their hobby horses irrationally.  But the self-correcting nature of science cleans this stuff up as it moves along.

I’m glad, Kelly, that you’ve enjoyed these posts.  I have too.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Les United States Posted on 12/02/2004 at 06:48 AM

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Doh! You both said what I was going to say. Dammit.

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All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
All I know is my steak tastes better when I take my steak tastes better pill
-- I Feel Fantastic, Jonathan Coulton

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