Yes, I can well imagine since I live out here in Fred Phelps land. If you don’t know who he is and are not familiar with his tactics, you can visit his site.

Fred Phelps

He’s one of the reasons I’m ashamed to say I’m from Kansas. The other is the whole school board/evolution thing. Believe me we’re not ALL like that.

Brock, you harm them by infringing on their god-given right to force you how to live your life. You hurt them by rejecting their love and insisting on that hateful behaviour.

Les, we need that sarcasm font.

It’s time that G-d’s Holy Homosexuals start attending these evil fundamentalist and evangelical Christian gatherings so as to witness to them of their corrupt ways.

I know, personally, that G-d has called homosexuals to deliver Christians from their evil, anti-truth ways.  They may hate us because we love them, because we try to help them—but in eternity they will thank us for our love and guidance.

If the season after season droughts, yearly tornadoes, multiple hurricanes, and longterm economic downturn in their Christian-majority lands is any divine indication, then they are surely in need of the Homosexual Gospel as revealed by G-d, King of The Universe.

The Righteous Homosexuals shall triumph over the Corrupt Christians, with the continued assistance of G-d Almighty in Heaven and Earth.  They shall be remnant from which his Truth shall spring forth and replenish the Earth.

Christians, turn from your evil ways towards the one true G-d of Homosexuals and Humans alike.  Otherwise, so shall you reap in how you hate and judge.

(Seriously, i think it’s time homosexuals start organizing a massive Christian outreach program.  Their moral sickness must be addressed.)

Christians crying about how “oppressed” they are when they’re confronted with counterprotestors is like Klan members marching in Harlem and then cryin’ about how “oppressed” they are when people start throwin bottles at them.

Here’s a clue—getting kicked in the head because you’re an asshole does not mean you’re being “oppressed.”

Or, in the words of The Princess Bride’s Inigo Montoya, “That word you keep using?  I do not think it means what you think it means.”

Funny spoof .rob, and timely post Brock, particularly in light of Cheney’s “outrage.”

Why, Rob…

And what nowiser said. Repent America seems like a one-trick pony, don’t they?

After reading Rob’s very funny post, I realize I have nothing left to add.  Just wanted to pile up the response numbers for ya, Brock muh man.

You know, I went from reading Wired’s article on the Ohio School Board mess to this post and I am convinced that every argument the religious right has boils down to a simple counterargument:
show me how this hurts you

The Religious Right could, if they wanted to, adopt a few tiny paradigm shifts that would allow them to live peacefully with everyone, enjoy the benefits of stem cell research, and still keep the major tenets of their religion.  They choose not to because then they might actually have to face their own real, disgusting flaws and God, what a tragedy that would be.

I just found this site and it is such a tasty combination of leftiness and geek, thank you for making it.

Thanks for the usual though-provoking post, Brock!

Just spent a while reading the amazing responses to one person’s lj post of the recent anniversary of the murder of Matthew Shepard.
THAT’S repression, so-called Christians.

Welcome, Shana!

maryh, where the hell have ya been, girl?  I’ve missed you.

.rob, you slay me.  I’m all over that outreach shit.

Here’s a clue—getting kicked in the head because you’re an asshole does not mean you’re being “oppressed.�

Um ... yes, it does.

I hold no truck with the ideology behind RepentAmerica.  But getting kicked in the head because someone thinks you’re an asshole [*is* oppression.  Pretending otherwise simply lets the assholes kick you in the head because they think *you’re* an asshole.

And arguing that just because RepentAmerica has access to zillions of churches across America (assuming, for a moment, we treat all Christians as equally narrow-minded bigots) they don’t have the right to legally express themselves in protest where they see fit is to follow the same path of setting up “free speech zones” off tucked safely away from political events (since, after all, the protesters there can go anywhere in America and protest, right?).

I oppose the agenda of RepentAmerica, but I’ll defend to the death their right to express it, same as anyone else.

Actually, nobody has the RIGHT to protest as they see fit.  Just like other aspects of freedom of speech, there are limits.  The right to protest CAN be proscribed by time, place, and manner.  Although it wasn’t stated directly, it can be safely assumed that the original gathering had a legal permit, while the protesters did not by reading what they were charged with.

The right to protest does not extend to inciting a riot, no more than the right of free speech extends to yelling fire in a movie theater.  They were using this protest as a means for inciting the injury of other people.  At least that’s they way that the police on the scene saw it, and that’s what it sounds like to me.

The problem with these fundies is that any time they are denied the ability to push their insanity on everyone else, they turn around and cry an bitch and moan that they are being oppressed.  Complete bullshit.

Thanks all, for suggesting through comments that this subject matter hasn’t been “covered enough” and thanks even to maryh for thinking of me. *grin*. I bet you could think of something relevant to say if you thought for a moment or two. Though I do hope I’m not writing too much about these issues.

I think nowiser was using the term “kicked in the head” as a metaphor for being clued in. I doubt he was really advocating kicking someone in the head.

I found the description “a militant mob of homosexuals” to be hilarious and will likely have more to say concerning this lawless band. Forgive me in advance if I end up writing of their exploits here.

I have to agree with Rob that there are limits to protest rights and would question that even if Repent America has the right to protest, does that mean it should? I mean, let’s settle the harm issues first. Once that’s established, it might seem this organization is, in effect, clubbing kittens.

Brock, if I were worried about you posting too many gay issue entries I wouldn’t have given you the opportunity to do so. I want you to write about whatever interests or concerns you and if that means you end up writing about gay issues a lot then so be it. There is certainly plenty that could and should be said on such issues and SEB only benefits from your participation.

Thank-you Les, you made me fweel awl bettah. It’s really too bad you aren’t “one of us”. Any man would be lucky to have you for a mate.

Seriously, you caught something that really concerns me and that is that gay issues can only be of limited importance if you aren’t a victim of their effects so I try to illustrate how “normal” I am in spite of my inclinations. I guess I need to show everybody that it isn’t about gay rights but human rights instead.

I sometimes wish I could see the world through the eyes of someone who has only an academic awareness of the issues/ a second hand understanding. I wish I could have a dispassionate connection to it, but something tells me I’m underestimating the level of understanding others can have without being that way themselves. I guess that’s another reason I seek to talk about homosexuality and religion or homosexuality and society.

But you said something very comforting and want you to know I appreciate it.

I think nowiser was using the term “kicked in the head� as a metaphor for being clued in

1) Thanks Brock, but I did actually mean “kicked in the head” as in having someone apply the instep of their boot to the side of someone else’s head.  That doesn’t mean that I advocate violence against people who are shouting and yelling and waving signs. 

I support free speech, even if I don’t like what someone has to say, but the KKK, for example, is not just a group of political “activists.” They’re (in the name of all that’s holy, I can’t -believe- I’m about to say this) terrorists.  As are many of the people who stand around outside abortion clinics, trying to scare “God” into the women who are going in to receive medical services.  For these people, signs and language are the smallest part of their ‘arsenal.’

If someone is waving a sign that says “God hates *whoever*,” I’ll choke down my nausea, and walk on.  If someone starts chanting “kill the *insert minority group here*” then yes, I believe it’s time to step up and say “I stand with them, take your best shot,” and if they do take a swing, then all bets are off.  Violence may beget violence but so does an unwillingness to fight back. 

[disclaimer:  this should not be taken as an indication, on my part, of preemptive strikes at a personal or governmental level.  If my rhetoric sounds similar to the Chimp-in-chief’s, it is merely a surface-level similarity.  /disclaimer]

2) Dave appears to believe that silencing someone (using force) constitutes oppression, no matter what group that person belongs to.  I respect his position, but I strongly disagree.  Not all violence is “oppression.” Not all exercises of power are “oppression.” Oppression is systematic, and flows from the top down.  Violent resistance against an oppressor is not another form of oppression. 

The Christian Right is very fond of saying that “tolerance” should not extend to evil.  I fully agree with them.  I just disagree on what constitutes evil.  If they outnumber me, if they are the ones who sit on the school boards, and on the bench, if they try to impose their will on me, are they “oppressed” if I fight back?

I already know how I would answer that question, but there are plenty of people that would disagree with me.  I’ll defend to the death their right to disagree with me-- right up to the end of my nose.  After that?  *shrug*

Dave appears to believe that silencing someone (using force) constitutes oppression, no matter what group that person belongs to.

Yeah, that’s about right.

I respect his position, but I strongly disagree.  Not all violence is “oppression.â€? Not all exercises of power are “oppression.â€? Oppression is systematic, and flows from the top down.  Violent resistance against an oppressor is not another form of oppression.

Hmmmm.  I’m not sure I agree, but I’m not sure, in turn, that (for the sake of argument) peaceful but provocative, even reprehensible protest is, in turn, oppression, or the action of oppressors, or is not therefore worth protection.

The Christian Right is very fond of saying that “toleranceâ€? should not extend to evil.  I fully agree with them.  I just disagree on what constitutes evil.

I certainly disagree with them as well.

If they outnumber me, if they are the ones who sit on the school boards, and on the bench, if they try to impose their will on me, are they “oppressed� if I fight back?

Assuming you can group them all (along with RepentAmerica) into one big monolithic power structure, no.

Of course, I suspect the protesters involved woul d similarly argue that the humanist liberals have taken over the school boards, the courts, and are now actively oppressing Right-Thinking Christians, hence the attack on these protesters and subsequent hauling away on trumped-up charges.

I suspect the reality of the power structure is a lot more complex than that.

I already know how I would answer that question, but there are plenty of people that would disagree with me.  I’ll defend to the death their right to disagree with me-- right up to the end of my nose.  After that?  *shrug*

I agree fully.  Nor should anyone have to tolerate protesters *past* the end of their nose.  I also agree with Nowiser that “If someone starts chanting “kill the *insert minority group here*â€? then yes, I believe it’s time to step up and say “I stand with them, take your best shot,â€? and if they do[/] take a swing, then all bets are off.” Short of that nose-end being violated or swing being taken, a kick upside the head against protesters is as reprehensible and dangerous against Fundamentalist hate-mongers as it is against peaceful anti-war flower children.

Short of that nose-end being violated or swing being taken, a kick upside the head against protesters is as reprehensible and dangerous against Fundamentalist hate-mongers as it is against peaceful anti-war flower children.

Yep.  Head-kicking is also not a very effective way of suppressing hate-mongers, or effecting social change.  MLK had more social impact than Malcolm, IMHO.

As for what was -really- going on at that protest, I suspect some nut-jobs started pushing their way around the “pink wall o’styrofoam,” and they might have been swinging those signs around too.  Hence Riot, Reckless Endangerment, and Possession of Instruments of Crime.

Seriously, you caught something that really concerns me and that is that gay issues can only be of limited importance if you aren’t a victim of their effects so I try to illustrate how “normal� I am in spite of my inclinations. I guess I need to show everybody that it isn’t about gay rights but human rights instead.

Brock, we’re all gay here, if that’s what it takes. ("Nous sommes tous Americains.") Don’t worry about it.  Many of us have been on the receiving end of discrimination and/or violence for SOMETHING we are, and if we don’t speak up for one group, we’re likely to be next.  It IS about human rights.  If we only care about our own little issues, we’re not moral humans.

As for what was -really- going on at that protest, I suspect some nut-jobs started pushing their way around the “pink wall o’styrofoam,â€? and they might have been swinging those signs around too.  Hence Riot, Reckless Endangerment, and Possession of Instruments of Crime.

Quite possibly.  On the other hand, those sorts of charges have been trumped up for other sorts of protesters at other events.  That may get into the “who controls the Establishment"/"who is the oppresssed” issue, but I tend to find that folk usually assume that *those* protesters are violent troglodytes who deserve a bit of time in the clink, while *our* protesters are being picked on by the evil police ...

Brock, we’re all gay here, if that’s what it takes. ("Nous sommes tous Americains.") Don’t worry about it.  Many of us have been on the receiving end of discrimination and/or violence for SOMETHING we are, and if we don’t speak up for one group, we’re likely to be next.  It IS about human rights.  If we only care about our own little issues, we’re not moral humans.

Agreed, GeekMom.

It IS about human rights.  If we only care about our own little issues, we’re not moral humans.

I agree GeekMom (thank-you), and that’s one reason why I hate it when people who have public attention usually only get behind an issue because it affects them personally. Take Christopher Reeve and stem cell research for an example - Why did it take personal injury before he would become so vocal about it’s potential benefits?

Too, I’ve been meaning to tell you how much I like your Gravatar. The glasses you chose really compliment the shape of your face. Why did it take you saying something nice to me before I would tell you that?

*grins then ducks and runs for cover*

Despite my original message, i have to be honest and say that i originally intended to post a comment akin to Dave’s.  People should take to heart his well placed points.

Make no mistake, i’m not a big fan of Christianity, much less the evangelical or fundamentalist flavours.  But, i have noticed a number of times on this system fairly bigoted rhetoric when it comes to Christians in general—and that i’ve repeatedly found disturbing, especially in this here thread.
--
Before i continue, for sake the integrity and full-disclosure, there are two things i should put on the table:

[1] I originally came to this site investigating several claims that GeekMom and Les were, in actuality, Madeline Murray O’Hare and her son.  Yes, yes, i know they’ve both been “murdered” [imagine me holding up my two hands and doing the bunny-rabbit-ear quote thingy when i say that word].  Although they were, by all mainstream news accounts, liquidated for their gold, the JDL and ADL had marshaled considerable resources researching persistent rumours that this story had been a hoax constructed by some atheistic cabal in America’s SouthWest.  Regardless, i submitted my report months ago:  GeekMom and Les are, indeed, who they claim to be *and* Madeline Murray O’Hare and her son are truly dead, dead, dead.  Copies of my report are available via PDF for anyone wishing such.  Moving on…

[2] Although i am Jewish and attended Hebrew University my area of study was Comparative Theology, with a concentration on Pharisaic Judaism and 1st Century Christianity.  For this and several other reasons not worth mentioning, i was given the opportunity to also attend an evangelical college (Nazarene) for one year in the States.  During the first half of that year no one (literally, no one) knew i was a practicing Jew (try doing morning prayers in the bathroom and keeping kashrut amongst this group of swine and milk eaters).  Having a goy name (my mother remarried a man who later adopted me, thus my last name) and also having, for the lack of a more succinct term, distinctly Aryan features (i look a lot like Luke Skywalker) allowed me to keep my Judaism a closeted secret.  I’ve done a lot of work with the Aryan Nations, too, so this whole stint wasn’t exactly too difficult, i admit.  But, anyways…

What i learned during my time there is that people are drawn to this in-your-face Christianity for a number of reasons—some are healthy and constructive, and others merely serve to enable deep seated pathologies best addressed, IMO, by long-term analysis and group therapy encounters.  No joke there.

To generalise all born-again-ish Christians as the last ilk is, well, misguided.  For sure, there also exist ardent atheists who, equally so, are merely serving some dark, psyche-deconstructive need (i know, i’ve met those, too).  Generalisations on both ideological fronts on serve to detract from your expressions of Truth.

Although i’d be the first and stand up to witness that i’m guilty of button-pushing rhetoric (who here hasn’t fallen into my emotional traps?  hmm?  (with the clear exception of GeekMom-O’Hare)), it’s important to remember that discourse is only meaningful when it is able to circumvent another’s fears, hates, and desires.

I dare say some of the things i’ve read in this thread do not serve your position’s best interests, no matter its Truth.

Seems my suspicions that you weren’t what you appeared to be are now confirmed.

First let me say that I try to make it clear when I write that I do not intend to paint all Christians with the same brush and I try to remind folks that we shouldn’t over-generalize when speaking of them collectively.

Now then as to the following:

[1] I originally came to this site investigating several claims that GeekMom and Les were, in actuality, Madeline Murray O’Hare and her son.  Yes, yes, i know they’ve both been “murderedâ€? [imagine me holding up my two hands and doing the bunny-rabbit-ear quote thingy when i say that word].  Although they were, by all mainstream news accounts, liquidated for their gold, the JDL and ADL had marshaled considerable resources researching persistent rumours that this story had been a hoax constructed by some atheistic cabal in America’s SouthWest.  Regardless, i submitted my report months ago:  GeekMom and Les are, indeed, who they claim to be *and* Madeline Murray O’Hare and her son are truly dead, dead, dead.  Copies of my report are available via PDF for anyone wishing such.  Moving on…

You’re joking, right? You mean to tell me that there are actually people out there who think GeekMom and I are actually Madeline Murray O’Hare and her son? That actually made me laugh out loud. Who the hell are these numbnuts and to what organization did you file your report with?

I’m glad you laughed.  #1 was, truly, a joke.  If the JDL or ADL sent me on such a venture i’d think it was a joke, too, and would refuse unless i got a cut in the gold.  (I thought the atheistic cabal in America’s SouthWest would give it away.  You don’t belong to any cabal, right ?)

Fear not, no one thinks your the son of O’Hare—well, ok, they might now. 

My first thought on that was: “What atheistic cabal in America’s South West?” But I don’t claim to know everything so I was willing to accept that such a thing might be possible and I’d look into it later.

Thing is, I wouldn’t put it past some folks to think I was O’Hare’s son for some stupid reason.

Although they were, by all mainstream news accounts, liquidated for their gold, the JDL and ADL had marshaled considerable resources researching persistent rumours that this story had been a hoax constructed by some atheistic cabal in America’s SouthWest.

Holy crap, are you for real?  An atheistic cabal? BWAHAHAHAHA