Teen sex in Florida is legal, but pictures of yourselves in the act isn’t.

Posted by Les on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 at 09:58 PM. Read 20137 times. Tags: , , , ,
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This news item seems completely out of whack: A 16 year old girl and a 17 year old boy in Florida had sex and decided during the course of their tryst to take digital photos of themselves humping like rabbits which the girl then emailed to the boy. Both claim they didn’t show the pictures to anyone else, but somehow the police found out about it and both kids end up being arrested. Not because they had engaged in sexual activity, but because they had produced child porn in the process:

On March 25, 2004, Amber and Jeremy [Not their real names. -Ed] took digital photos of themselves naked and engaged in unspecified “sexual behavior.” The two sent the photos from a computer at Amber’s house to Jeremy’s personal e-mail address. Neither teen showed the photographs to anyone else.

Court records don’t say exactly what happened next--perhaps the parents wanted to end the relationship and raised the alarm--but somehow Florida police learned about the photos.

Amber and Jeremy were arrested. Each was charged with producing, directing or promoting a photograph featuring the sexual conduct of a child. Based on the contents of his e-mail account, Jeremy was charged with an extra count of possession of child pornography.

Again keep in mind that under Florida law the teens weren’t in trouble for actually having sex:

“The crux of the state’s interest in an adult-minor situation is the prevention of exploitation of the minor by the adult,” the majority said at the time. The court ruled that a Florida statute punishing sex between teens was “unconstitutional as applied to this 16-year-old as a basis for a delinquency proceeding.”

The same applies to Amber and Jeremy. Even though he is a year older than her, he is still a minor in Florida.

In other words, under Florida law, Amber and Jeremy would be legally permitted to engage in carnal relations, but they’re criminals if they document it.

Child pornography laws are intended to prevent the exploitation of children by adults, but it’s hard to see how anyone in this situation has been exploited. As far as the law is concerned both of them are considered juveniles and both claim that the pictures were never intended to be revealed to anyone else. The girl in this case ended up pleading no contest to the trial judge and reserved the right to appeal based on her claim of a constitutional right to privacy. The appeals judges didn’t buy the argument in a 2 to 1 decision against the girl that says she was too young and stupid to make a valid decision about the risks of taking pictures of herself having sex:

Judge James Wolf, a former prosecutor, wrote the majority opinion.

Wolf speculated that Amber and Jeremy could have ended up selling the photos to child pornographers ("one motive for revealing the photos is profit") or showing the images to their friends. He claimed that Amber had neither the “foresight or maturity” to make a reasonable estimation of the risks on her own. And he said that transferring the images from a digital camera to a PC created innumerable problems: “The two computers (can) be hacked.”

Judge Philip Padovano dissented. He wrote that the law “was designed to protect children from abuse by others, but it was used in this case to punish a child for her own mistake. In my view, the application of this criminal statute to the conduct at issue violates the child’s right to privacy under Article 1, Section 23 of the Florida Constitution.”

So the argument here is that because there is always some potential risk that the pictures could be released and because the girl is too stupid to realize the possibility of such a risk the court is going to convict her of producing child pornography. For her own good so to speak. No word on how the boyfriend has pleaded in his case. The full article contains a more detailed accounting of the majority and minority opinions of the case and you can read the full opinion here.

This just seems idiotic to me. It’s OK for the teens to have sex with each other, but not OK for them to photograph themselves doing it until they’re 18 and they’re claiming this it to protect them from themselves. Not sure I see how this helps the problem at all.

Link found via Boing Boing.

Comments:

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Neil United States Posted on 05/17/2007 at 06:43 PM

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Funny how the anti-sex hypocrisy and hysteria always finds a way to hide behind badly applied law.  I suppose Consi would support prosecution for a fourteen year old who recorded himself masturbating.  From my view the law itself, by not making exception for the private acts of those legally engaging in sex, should have been found unconstitutional.  But no one ever accused the Florida legislature of being fair or literate. 

It’s clear that there were constitutional issues with this case, and the dissenting opinion had just as much precedent to back it up; in fact a more closely related case than the majority chose to apply.  Go read the decision.  The majority talks an awful lot about the State’s interest without ever explaining why that interest is so pervasive.  The rationale sits entirely on “could haves” and the presumption to know the intent of the kids and the limitations of their character.  Also mentioned is the states compelling interest in keeping it from happening in the first place-and good fucking luck with that!

If this case were about anything else but so- called child porn, privacy would be paramount.  The fact that there exist people who would seek to profit illegally should not change an expectation of privacy unless one of them actually succeeds.

But I forget-social conservatives love thoughtcrime, hate sex, and don’t give a rat’s ass about the consequences to freedom.  The state doesn’t own my body or anyone else’s.  Sometimes I think that the only way pigs will learn this lesson is on the end of a pitchfork, but that’s being optimistic.  All they have to do is say “child porn” and the state’s interest will prevail.

So now two healthy kids are “child pornographers.” And all I can do is say to the sex-haters one more time-"Sorry about your penis!”

Moloch United States Posted on 05/17/2007 at 11:46 PM

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I was convicted as “Pedophile” when I was 16. Luckily, they went extremely easy on me with their “punishments”. Since I was a minor myself at the time, nobody without some significant legal power has access to those records.

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/18/2007 at 12:03 AM

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Somebody must have just jiggled the antenna, because the picture just got clearer.

LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 05/18/2007 at 03:53 AM

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One part of me wonders why, after 3 months, Moloch decided to ‘confess’ now or even at all and, I’m pruriently inquisitive enough to wonder if his crime was that he interfered with a one year old or had consensual sex with 15 year old in the ‘wrong’ state. No puns intended.

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timmeh United States Posted on 05/18/2007 at 08:32 AM

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Alright let’s say the law is changed, so that there is an exception for those under 18 to produce these movies. Sounds good right? Teen agers deserve the same rights as adults to film themselves. Wrong, what this would do is provide a loop hole for the porn industry to get access to underage films. I manage a smut shop and I have meet some people in the industry that are downright sleazy enough to take advantage of any such law (i.e. max hardcore). The mind of a teenager is nowhere nearly developed enough to make a life changing decision like this. Yes being in a porno is life changing, if for only the fact you will always know you did it. Personally I would like to see the age raised to 20, but the money side says keep it like it is.

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/18/2007 at 11:31 AM

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Very good point, Timmeh.  Never ceases to amaze me the varied backgrounds and insights of people on this forum.

Still… there must be some way of balancing the fact that this was something between two individuals, they didn’t deserve draconian punishment.  Must admit I am stumped by this one.

timmeh United States Posted on 05/18/2007 at 06:22 PM

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Some rules in life are just arbitrary. Like is there really a difference between someone that is 20 years and 364 days old and someone that is 21yrs and five minutes old? Yes, one of them can buy beer. It sucks to be on the other side of the line but you have to put the line somewhere. I do however think the punishment should fit the crime, and these kids should have gotten a couple of years probation. I think that would have been enough to tell them “hey dumb ass think next time”.

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Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 05/18/2007 at 06:31 PM

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timmeh- good point, I think things like aniversaries and birthdays don’t really mean anything because nothing’s drastically different, but arbitary divisions are the best we can do when the law has to draw a specific line. I see the punishments of the law ‘part of the deal’ when commiting a crime

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/18/2007 at 06:46 PM

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Proximity to the line would be a good mitigating factor in punishment - to smooth out the arbitrariness of the law.  But mandatory sentencing laws (such as a certain bloviating Foxoid advocates) make that impossible.

Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 05/18/2007 at 07:36 PM

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Agreed, i think it’s be interesting if a component of a sentance was algebraeicly calculated (considering age), applied differently algebra would also be a useful alternative to tax banding, so it varies to the penny and might be simpler, and consequently less open to loopholes, if used for tax the same equation could apply to everyone, making it seem a little fairer and more flexible

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/18/2007 at 09:58 PM

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algebraically calculated sliding penalties factoring in age and other quantifiable mitigating variables - I like it.  A zero line escalating to maximum at some point along the continuum. 

Think we’ll ever have legislators that numerate?  Or an electorate that could follow the idea?

Les United States Posted on 05/19/2007 at 01:36 AM

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The solution is simple: Start letting the judges do their jobs once again and “judge” the people involved appropriately. There was a time when judges had a lot of leeway to take into consideration extenuating circumstances such as intent and other mitigating factors. Then we had all the zero-tolerance bullshit crop up in the late 80’s and early 90’s that tied judge’s hands to the point that they have no choice in what verdicts they hand down.

Laws are always going to be somewhat arbitrary which is why we have judges in the first place.

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Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 05/19/2007 at 05:01 AM

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In an odd way I think what I am about to writeis in support of what Timmeh said about the ‘Sleazy people’ in the adult industry.  Surely the age for sex and the age for Porn should be the same. Why can a 16 year old get laid, but not look at pictures of naked women?

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Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 05/19/2007 at 03:55 PM

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DoF: Think we’ll ever have legislators that numerate?  Or an electorate that could follow the idea?

Good point - not now, but I’d like to see maths skill become part of the requirements to be a legislator, maybe integrated into their degrees (if only because they handle our money, and problem solving won’t hurt).

I’d like it if there were a general exam of sorts that, whilst offered to anyone, has to be passed in order to allow voting, so control of democracy is in logical hands and more likely to take a wise direction, and if anything might encourage more people to study. I think though the random aimlessness of democracy (that happens when people don’t really know what they’re voting for) is partly it’s strength - as groups keep each other in check, and ineptitude being preferable to more sinister motives, however the stupid are a danger in that they can be encouraged to vote for something sinister

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/19/2007 at 04:37 PM

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I’d like it if there were a general exam of sorts that, whilst offered to anyone, has to be passed in order to allow voting,

Hoo boy - actually not a bad idea, some kind of nonpartisan cognitive requirement for voting such as the ability to show reading comprehension and do basic math.  But (puts on helmet) here come the cries of “***ism!” At least, that has been the result every time I’ve suggested it.

So we have hoards of voters who don’t know, well, anything really, except what they hear in campaign adsraspberry

(*** = race, elite, class, regional, etc.)

Consigliere United States Posted on 05/19/2007 at 07:03 PM

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Hoo boy - actually not a bad idea, some kind of nonpartisan cognitive requirement for voting such as the ability to show reading comprehension and do basic math.

I’ve thought that for a long time.  I really like the idea, because it makes sense.  I’m more than a little surprised to see it mentioned here.  I’m surprised because of the disparate impact it would have upon the voting blocs towards candidates with conservative tendencies. It would virtually assure that Florida, Ohio, Missouri and New Mexico would break towards conservative candidates for the foreseeable future.
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Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 05/19/2007 at 07:08 PM

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LOL no ideological bias here

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Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 05/19/2007 at 07:32 PM

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I think negative campaining, like DoF linked to an article about, works because in the face of cynicism it’s more believable about the party, or it plays on the vulnerabilities of the voter, even if it is made up. When I see subjective opinions such as “only faggots want higher taxes” I actually lose respect for the campaigner, sure they might win over people vulnerable to bias on that line of thought but they are showing their only interest is in getting elected, which in turn means their principles are only for show. Also promoting phobeas is the essence of the asshat

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timmeh United States Posted on 05/20/2007 at 08:03 AM

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I’d like it if there were a general exam of sorts that, whilst offered to anyone, has to be passed in order to allow voting

I can’t agree with that. I would rather Have every one that intends to vote attend classes. Each party could get an amount of time to educate the voters of their point of view based on their percent of the voter population.

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timmeh United States Posted on 05/20/2007 at 08:09 AM

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What you would have with tests to prove worth, is a timocracy not a democracy.

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Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 05/20/2007 at 01:34 PM

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If political points were made in the teaching (or exam) there would always be questions of bias and the competancy (and hence level of coverage) of the campaigner. Basing it on other subjects like maths and comprehension is a way of measuring general intelligence which by trend tends to correlate with the thought that went into the choice. There needs to be some assessment of sorts to see if it actually went in, but coursework can be faked. Exams, though an unnatural scenario not replicated in everyday life, are very effective at separating people with less cheating, they’re not necessarily a perfect indication but nethertheless the competancy of those allowed to vote would be higher after the filtering. You could have exemptions for those with qualifications, say perhaps, that those with the equivilent of a degree can vote anyway

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/20/2007 at 01:36 PM

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Consi - I wouldn’t be too sure about that demographic shift.  One thing about a voting literacy/numeracy test is it would sure as hell get both parties interested in adult education.  Overnight it would become a new national priority.

Of course, there is one test I would support for voting right off the bat! 

Timmeh - wouldn’t it be a meritocracy?  I thought a timocracy was about land ownership.  (Good choice on a name, though.  You could approach the voting officials and say; “There are some who would call me… Tim")

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 05/20/2007 at 02:40 PM

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One thing about a voting literacy/numeracy test is it would sure as hell get both parties interested in adult education.  Overnight it would become a new national priority.

Why isn’t it a national priority already?

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timmeh United States Posted on 05/20/2007 at 04:19 PM

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I know I just used timocracry as a pun. My name is Tim, and timocracy translates to rule by the worthy. I do understand that I took liberties using that term.

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/20/2007 at 04:48 PM

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“a national priority already"… politicians talk about education when they’re gunning for the NEA vote.  In practice they mostly go for ill-conceived programs that sound good in slogans without getting in the way of various lobbies. 

My name is Tim, and timocracy translates to rule by the worthy.

Timocracy it is then!!!  cool smile

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