Ragman, you are right. I’m not really sure of the amount of that sort of material you get on these boards, but it must get frustrating after a while.

Les, I guess it must be hard to be patient with people who refuse to see your point of view. Especially seeing as how you are going through a rough patch atm.

Some of the things I read on this board were funny and inspiring, which is a fairly rare thing today. I guess it wasn’t to be my last post after all.

Speaking with people whose minds are closed can be like shouting at the wind.

Anonymous

With a flourish of his cape and a wave of his mighty hand, Anonymous says:

. . . The reason I didn’t include my email address is because I have a somewhat high profile and don’t give out my name or address on the internet. I try not to mix my business and personal life.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!  talk about *delusional*! Thanks for the intel, Bruce Wayne!

Oh, i’m *terribly* sorry “Anonymous” - it’s just that you pinned my “He’s Full Of Himself and Talking Utter Shit” (HFOHATUS) meter, and it caused a knee-jerk BWAHAHA! response.  A thousand pardons for laughing at Your Eminence, Oh Great Dark Knight! (bows deeply)

Anonymous: Sometimes people say some brilliant things Les, but sometimes quite the opposite. I don’t exclude myself from this behaviour either.

Yeah, like that quote of yours above - that was a DOOZY, lemme tell ya!  Thanks for the laugh! 

Say Batman - err, Bruce - I mean Anonymous - ever hear of Hotmail or Gmail or email services like ‘em?  Hmmm? Huh? Hmmm?

Anonymous: Self-reflection brings us a step closer to the truth.

Yeah, sure.  If you say so.

In another action-packed post “Anonymous” writes:

Speaking with people whose minds are closed can be like shouting at the wind.

. . . and listening to their anonymous pontifications can be a lot like hearing the wind whistling through an empty bottle.

IYKWIM.

While I agree with Anonymous in principle, in this case certain premises are not met.

First, this is an atheist and pro-science site. I don’t recall any creationist coming here with an intent other than to proselytize, to pontificate, or simply to troll. Does anybody recall one that pursued an amicable discussion or even an honest debate?

Second, the creationists that come here are not open to have their own beliefs challenged, but expect it from us. As Anonymous implicitely admitted, theirs is a religious and not a scientific position. Few if any are honest enough to admit it, none are open to put their acceptance of religious dogma on the line, but all they have to do is to offer a scientific theory that better explains what we can observe about nature. Instead, all we get amounts to an appeal to emotion and special pleading.

Third, is it rude to mock them? Yes, but they come here on their own volition and can tailor their approach based on this board’s public history. They come here to convince or mock us, we don’t seek them out to convince them (deprogram may be a more appropriate term), so if their reception is less than cordial, tough luck.

Fourth, who asked you and the high horse you rode in on?

Ragman, I’ve added the Most Commented list back to the sidebar seeing as a couple of folks do seem to make use of it. I really need to sit down and make up a list of SEB Highlights that folks should check out when visiting for the first time.

Seeing as “Anonymous” has decided to return after all I’ll go ahead and address the points he raised in his first comment and the ones which followed…

First, it is much more persuasive an argument when insults are not flung around and you don’t try to make a joke out of the person you are addressing. People can see through that sort of thing and realise that you are not really listening to them.

You make the mistake of assuming my intent was to persuade JesusFreak when my intent was actually to dissuade him.

It was clear from the first comments he made that he is quite ignorant of just what is proposed by the Theory of Evolution. There’s no point in trying to persuade someone that the Theory of Evolution is correct when they don’t know—or hold factually incorrect beliefs about—what the theory itself actually is. It’s not at all unreasonable of me to demand that someone who’s going to come here and claim that the Theory is incorrect actually have knowledge of what the Theory says first.

Personally I’ve grown somewhat tired of trying to cure dumbasses of their ignorance so if telling them what morons they are leads them to go off and spew their nonsense elsewhere then so much the better. With a little luck some of them will take the time to actually study up on the topic they’re being told they’re ignorant about just to spite me and will educate themselves in the process. If they want to come back after that and engage in a proper debate on the topic then I would be more than accommodating.

I don’t require that everyone agree with me, but I do require that they’re not talking out of their ass if they want to argue with me.

This is a fight between religion and science that has been going for a very long time. It seems that this board is mostly dominated by the scientists and when a christian comes along to say something, they are shouted at and ridiculed until they leave, dismissing the others as fools.

That’s a big assumption to make for a first time commenter. I trust now that you’ve looked around a bit more you realize things are not as you first perceived. There are a number of Christians who frequent this site regularly and even contribute articles on occasion. We butt heads every so often and we even get nasty with each other on occasion, but we find we have more in common than we do in differences and they are welcome here. There are a great number of Christians whom I have great respect for and who’s opinions I find of value—at least in matters beyond the spiritual.

I try to save my ridicule for the ridiculous that actually deserve it.

Most people on this board are so closed-minded that they can’t see the truth. I’m not talking about “the truth� that God is all powerful, because I’m one of the scientists. I do not believe in God. I am talking about the fact that these are people who you are sending your messages to.

I’m accused of being closed minded all the time by folks who don’t like the fact that I call things as I see them. I am aware that I’m dealing with people here, some of whom are idiots. I suppose I could be nicer and not point out their idiocy to them, but that does them no favor beyond sparing their feelings. My mind is open to any possibility, but not so open that my brains fall out. There’s a difference between being open minded and being credulous.

You all seem to be very smart and I’m sure you did well at school, but you have to admit - you don’t know everything.

I’ve never claimed to know everything. Just the opposite, actually, I’m more than willing to admit my ignorance on any number of topics. Those things I do know, however, I tend to know pretty well.

One of the things that you don’t know is how to convince people of your beliefs. How would you behave if, on a Christian board, you posted up your opinions about creationism and evolution, then got flamed about being a heathen?

That depends on which people you think I should be trying to convince. I’m not generally worried about convincing someone like JesusFreak that my beliefs are correct because I doubt there’s any kind of an argument that could be presented which would do so for someone such as him. It’s the folks sitting on the fence reading the comments here I’m thinking of.

As for being flamed on a Christian message board for stating my beliefs, hell, I don’t need to go to a Christian message board for that because they come and do it right here on my own website. Heathen is the least of what I am often called. You tend to develop a thick skin after awhile.

Here is something I thought of while reading some of the other posts - the idea that in fact the scientists and god-fearers may actually believe in the same thing. In other words, God is Energy. Probably there are many reasons why this is wrong, but it is interesting anyway.

It’s a discussion I believe we’ve had in the past in a different thread. I have no problems with that statement though it tends to either reduce God to a non-sentient phenomena or elevate energy to the point of omnipotence neither of which probably appeals much to either camp.

And please don’t point out the fact that I might have insulted just about every reader of this post while hippocritically saying that arguments with insults are less effective. You may in fact be proving my point while you write that… I’m not sure I didn’t think that far ahead.

This last paragraph makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I planned to check back on my post to see what people would say about it. The reason I didn’t include my email address is because I have a somewhat high profile and don’t give out my name or address on the internet. I try not to mix my business and personal life.

As someone else has already pointed out there’s nothing stopping you from signing up for a free web mail based account and using a pseudonym. Not everyone here posts under his or her real name and primary email address and I don’t have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when folks show up and post a smug one-shot anonymous comment thinking they’re putting us in our place before disappearing back into the shadows thinking they’ve accomplished something terribly clever.

Sometimes people say some brilliant things Les, but sometimes quite the opposite. I don’t exclude myself from this behaviour either.

And sometimes they state the blindingly obvious as though it were a significant insight into human nature…

Self-reflection brings us a step closer to the truth.

Sometimes, but not always. It could just mean you’re a narcissist.

Les, I guess it must be hard to be patient with people who refuse to see your point of view. Especially seeing as how you are going through a rough patch atm.

Oddly enough some folks think I’m too patient. It’s not uncommon for me to write lengthy replies—much like this one—to folks whom I think are actually trying to have an honest discussion. I tend to have less patience with people who appear to be closed minded and out to try and set my ass straight about a topic. If you’re going to come here and tell me I’m wrong about something then you’d best have the resources to back that claim up if you want me to take you seriously. I’m eager to learn new things and I have no illusions of my own infallibility, but I don’t just blindly accept anything people tell me without good reason.

Les, you have convinced me that I was wrong about some people on this board. You answered all of my statemements thoughtfully (and I think you were right about jesusfreak).

A well-aimed remark can do more damage than a bullet.

Anonymous

I’m not generally worried about convincing someone like JesusFreak that my beliefs are correct because I doubt there’s any kind of an argument that could be presented which would do so for someone such as him.

Deprogramming, Les. Patiently sound out the substance of their religious beliefs and question those, proceeding from peripheral issues to hardcore dogma. It’s a poor value proposition, though - a huge investment of time and effort with limited chances of success. And even if you succeed, it’s not clear that you’ve done that individual a favor.

Well those who don’t believe in God!! Pray that your right. Wake up call. None of you can survie what I survied. Satan, Devil, red dragon Oh he’s real. I fought demons seen people possed.Maybe yall need to go yo Haiti in vist La guo na. inhabitations of demons Satans legions. Maybe you guys serve him already, knowingly and not knowingly I don’t know? I know I did for I was raised with that religion. In cuba is a big tradtion you don’t ask questions it is what is, your thought at a young age and some of my family in Cuba are big witch doctors. Who is a lair but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist,that denieth the Father and the Son.Well their is either this or that ,either your awake or asleep which many are!! either your in darkness which is a place and light is the way.You have a choice ya or na, I know I made mines!! Everything that is in darkness shall come to light and be exposed for everyone to see. Everything will be judge
Seek the truth, red or blue people you choose and live . Ingnorance is not an excuse.Wise men lay up knowledge: but that mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

Note to self: Restore the devil ducky gravatar.

dayami zaragoza, Been there, done that (not in Haiti or Cuba, but in Brasil - they get over 1 million spiritualists on the beaches on New Year’s Eve - quite a site!They’re called Macumbas.) Also, I taught the Bible for twenty years (NOTE: taught, not just studied) and finally did seek the truth. It wasn’t there. The truth is that Man greated god in his own likeness and image (and many more images). Any time you make something more sacred than humans, you devalue human life. Look inward, not outward. You have unlimited potential within you, if you try to bring it out. Then again, maybe the answer to Rodney King’s question is: “No.“

Les,
What happened to the fonts?

Here we go again…

Well those who don’t believe in God!! Pray that your right.

Considering we don’t believe in God then whom are we supposed to be praying to? This is the sort of idiotic thinking God belief leads some people to: That we should pray to a God we don’t believe exists that we’re right that he doesn’t exist.

Wake up call. None of you can survie what I survied.

You don’t even know us so how can you make such a claim?

Satan, Devil, red dragon Oh he’s real. I fought demons seen people possed.Maybe yall need to go yo Haiti in vist La guo na. inhabitations of demons Satans legions. Maybe you guys serve him already, knowingly and not knowingly I don’t know? I know I did for I was raised with that religion. In cuba is a big tradtion you don’t ask questions it is what is, your thought at a young age and some of my family in Cuba are big witch doctors. Who is a lair but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist,that denieth the Father and the Son.Well their is either this or that ,either your awake or asleep which many are!! either your in darkness which is a place and light is the way.You have a choice ya or na, I know I made mines!!
Everything that is in darkness shall come to light and be exposed for everyone to see. Everything will be judge
Seek the truth, red or blue people you choose and live . Ingnorance is not an excuse.Wise men lay up knowledge: but that mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

The only thing demonic around here is your abuse of the English language. That was easily one of the more laughable attempts at preaching I’ve seen in awhile.

Leguru, what happened was dayami’s incompetence at using HTML. I’ve fixed his comment.

i totally disagree with u, to be honest i’d hate to be u on judgement day. if your so sure of what u believe is true go n claim your £250,000 from Kent Hovind

o be honest i’d hate to be u on judgement day.

Assuming “Judgment Day” were to be a real event, I’d actually kind of look forward to it if it would mean that people like “Hannah Red” would be ridded from the Earth.

Nah, these people are necessary Sadie.

Don’t know if you read it in the thread about ‘de-lurking week’ - but a guy there posted about the impact reading comments like these had on his changing opinions re: religion whilst reading SEB. Changes for the better, I dare say. Bring ‘em on. The frootier and ruder the better. Gives us a chance to get to them before the Christian forums teach them to tame down the friggin rapture.

These people are our best weapon in the effort to diminish the ranks of the quack ministries and 3rd world religious opportunists. I’ve lost too many friends to that world ... no more I say!!! No more overnight woman haters!!! No more ethical zombies feasting at the flesh of human ignorance!!! *ahem*

On a side note - anyone else out there absolutely cherish the Fletch movies like I do? When he is forced to assume the identity of a cornball preacher in front of a crowd of worked up TrueBlievers ... oh how Chevy Chase makes me laugh. True story: I taped over a Kent Hovind creation science dub (VHS) with a Fletch movie when it came on TV. The very old man who gave me the VHS tape has since died. And I think my wife taped Friends and Survivor over Fletch. So, the spiral of life continues…

Nah, these people are necessary Sadie.

Well, they do often make life more amusing. And they’re a fairly good reference point about the kind of person that I am glad I’m not. Still, I do think the world would be a far better place with fewer Jerry Falwells and the like. Not to insinuate that our friend Hannah is necessarily that far gone; her spelling and grammar could certainly be improved, however.

Hannah writes…

i totally disagree with u, to be honest i’d hate to be u on judgement day.

It’s great that you disagree with me, but you don’t provide me with anything other than a vague threat to consider as an alternative.

Incidentally, I’d hate to be you right now.

if your so sure of what u believe is true go n claim your £250,000 from Kent Hovind

If he’s not going to listen to the leading biologists in the world then there’s little chance he’ll listen to me. Simply because he can’t be convinced doesn’t mean he’s right.

Incidentally, we’re now number 4 result when searching for “Kent Hovind” on Google.

he would be if it actually happened. personally i like being worth something, if evolution happened then there’s no point in life

Hannah comes back to say very little once again…

he would be if it actually happened.

I seriously doubt that seeing as it is actually happening and there’s plenty of documented evidence showing as much and yet he continues to cling to an idiotic non-theory that does nothing other than make True Believers™ feel special.

personally i like being worth something, if evolution happened then there’s no point in life

Based on that comment I’d say you’re already pretty worthless. If your life is so shallow that evolution would render it meaningless then, well, you should get out more. There’s a whole universe out there evolving around you all the time. You should get to know it better.

...no point in life.

Oh yeah, that’s a good one.

You mean, no point in life, besides understanding medical problems on a deeper level so that we can prevent and alleviate untold suffering? Besides embracing reasoned scientific inquiry towards a real understanding of human and planetary history, rather than feasting at the sewage pipe of ‘Hovindom’?

Kent Hovind is a sham, if not a liar. It’s very fucking well documented. Do yourself a favour and take a look at some of the well-earned criticism he has accumulated both here  and elsewhere out there on the ‘net.

I’ve often wondered why PZ Meyers doesn’t make a formal claim for Kent Hovind’s money.  I would love to see it happen.  Recommendations to PZ Meyers:

1) Retain counsel to review Hovind’s fine print;
2) Follow counsel’s advice in how to make a formal claim for Kent Hovind’s offer;
3) Sue under about 3-4, likely more, theories for failure to get the money when Hovind turns you down;
4) Get national exposur for the case of evolution;
5) Get Hovind’s money.
6) Eliminate his biggest, and cheapest PR tool.

PZ, get on the stick.

I’ve often wondered why PZ Meyers doesn’t make a formal claim for Kent Hovind’s money.

Because, Consi, you don’t even need to retain counsel to see his offer is bogus.  Here’s the offer:

I have a standing offer of $250,000 to anyone who can give any empirical evidence (scientific proof) for evolution.*

Sounds good, right?  But note the asterisk, which leads to this footnote:

* NOTE: When I use the word evolution, I am not referring to the minor variations found in all of the various life forms (microevolution). I am referring to the general theory of evolution which believes these five major events took place without God:
1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
2. Planets and stars formed from space dust.
3. Matter created life by itself.
4. Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
5. Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals).

Notice especially point no. 1.  Even Charles Darwin would have trouble proving that.  Points one to three are not part of evolutionary science at all, of course.

I don’t know much about law, but I suspect that “Dr” Hovind’s money (if it exists) is safe.

Seeing how evolution is the backbone of life on Earth, I am quite baffled as to how the fact of evolution would render life “meaningless.“

My guess is that Hannah, like so many fundamentalist Christians (I’m assuming Hannah is a fundamentalist Christian, that is; I may be wrong, but my gut tells me I’m not), believes accepting evolution would be tantamount to rejecting God. Now, I don’t believe in a Christian God, but even if I did, it seems pretty silly to assume that the fact of evolution and God’s existence are mutually exclusive.

ROTFLMAO.  I see.  He changes the very meaning of evolution.  You know, I still think there might be something there. 

He uses the word evolution in his offer. The meaning of “evolution” is widely understood by all scientists and everybody with any education as not to encompass “the origins of time, space, and matter.“ The PA case sets out what evolution is commonly understood to be.  I believe that empirical evidence should be offered by someone.

It is a long shot, but here is why I still think some folks may have a colorable claim.  It is likely that Hovind is utilizing this claim that there is no “empirical evidence” for “evolution” in his marketing materials for himself so as to secure speaking engagements and sell his promotional items.  I’m familiar only with the Missouri statute, but nearly all states have something that reads like this:

570.160. 1. A person commits the crime of false advertising if, in connection with the promotion of the sale of, or to increase the consumption of, property or services, he recklessly makes or causes to be made a false or misleading statement in any advertisement addressed to the public or to a substantial number of persons.

Now, I believe that when he makes the statements publicly and in his brochures he likely uses the word evolution.  The changed definition of evolution has in all likelihood not been included.  The argument could be made that the use of the term, and his offer references, are misleading statements in advertisements.

Just a thought for some of the evoutionists to mull over out there if they would like say a year or twos worth of entertainment.

zilch, I just read, and I agree with the guy’s analysis over at talkorigins about a common law fraud claim.  The statutory claim under a false advertising statute is almost always easier to satisfy.  It should be considered, if for no other reason than one could subpoena the information to determine who is on the committee and to shine some light on the process that for the review of each application, as well as the fact that Hovind may not be able to fund the offer. 

Even if one didn’t obtain a verdict, just getting to a trial could potentially exposes all the possible flaws in this offer and it would be enlightening for the public I believe.  It would also surely garner national publicity for the attorney and the client that pursued it.