‘Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.’ Numbers 31:17-18

What a great and loving god!

Amen! I think that even if the Christians cold somehow prove that their god exists (or the Jews, or the Muslims, or the Hindus, or whoever), I’d believe in their existence, but they’d still have to go a hell of a lot further than they have to convince me that they are worth worshiping.

Of course, they are a long way off from actually having anything resembling empirical evidence that their god(s) even exist at all, so I guess the point is perhaps moot.

If it’s Creators all the way up, then Yahweh would do well to remember what happened to Yertle.

I wish, just once, that the faith sufferers would come up with one new argument. Just one. I mean, when was the last time any of them came up with an original argument? Never mind how many times each argument has been thoroughly decimated, they still dredge up Paley from the 19th Century, Pascal from the 17th, and even Aquinas from the 13th, as if they’re all brand new!

And then they wonder why people think they’re morons….

Aquaria- I’ve had conversations with believers who still trotted out St. Anselm’s Ontological Argument (11th century) and even Augustine’s tired old proof for the existence of God (4th century).  All long since refuted, and no better today than they were back then.

Same experience here—while I still bothered to hang out on religious forums.

We are obviously cheating evolution because of hospitals etc.  Take Coeliacs disease- You can’t eat the same as the rest of us, so we are going spend effort keeping you alive, rather than just letting you die.  Before I get shouted at I am just echoing Darwin:  I have coeliac freinds.

Frankly if ‘survival of the fittest’ was still applicable I’d be a sex symbol- I’m for ever solving computer problems at work.  Instead six packs seem very much to still be in fashion.

Pterry is indeed Mr Pratchett- one of the few bits of modern/fan speak I will use- I usually puntuate my text messages correctly.  Part of A’Tuin was inspired by that old lady, the rest by the legends that inspired her.

There are two competing theories- one where A’Tuin crawls ever onward- the so called Steady Gait theory, and the one where he/she/it is proceeding towards the Time of Mating- the Big Bang theory. 

Because of the nature of English, puns can be hard to translate.  In Dutch ‘Bang’ isn’t slang for sex.  In a piece of inspired translation (note I am doing this from memory, because I can’t find the book with the quote in- the original hardback Discworld companion interview) the Dutch for the ‘Big Bang Theory’ is quite close to ‘Making love inside out’.  Apparently Mr P sat and grinned for quite a long time after hearing this.

Personally I think the Discworld approach to religeon has a lot to recommend it.  At least if we were Creationists we’d have some one to blame for the shitty design (we are talking about a world where the gods live in Dunmanfesting, and whose idea of a night out is to go round and break an athiest’s windows).

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

Im not going to respond to all the negative feedback but i will say this. Read the Bible and then look around you and you will see that everything that is written in there has happend are is happing now. So yes GOD`s word is true and i live by it everyday of my live and have been very blessed and i dont have to call people names to try and make myself feel better or try to convence myself that i can do wrong all my life and not get punished for it in the end. Any person can convence thereself that GOD is not real.  (If you deny me in front of man, I will deny you in front of my father).  I will not be one that will deny him. Call me what you want, your words dont hurt my but my heart aches for you.  (No one comes before the Father except through Me’ John 14:6-9)  it is as easy as that folks. This will be my last comment here, i have said my peace and know when to say when is enough. Thanks again and have a good evening. GOD Bless you all.

Read the Bible and then look around you and you will see that everything that is written in there has happend are is happing now.

HOLEE SHEEE-IT RICHARD! You’re RIGHT! Look what I just found in the BIBLE!

15 And then GOD did smiteth the Ebezenites for their continual usage of the web that doth did stretcheth across the plains of the Hebenazerids, nay stretcheth unto the corners of the earth.

16 For the Ebezenites dideth useth the great web of the widening world to daily readeth unto their own eyes the messages of Eeee, and to browseth the wide selections of pictures of women who doth taketh off their clothes for filthy lucre, and also for spending their coin in the dens of the moneychangers sites of webiness. 

17 And because of this, the Lord thy GOD was wrothful and displeased, for the Ebezenites had brought the web of the widening world to the camps of Davina and Motess and Lucas and brought the anger and slothfulness upon those peoples as well. 

18 So God doth commandeth the Hebejeebeenites to march forth and slaughter all the Ebezenites and taketh their young daughters unto themselves, along with all their sheeps and goats and oxen and stoats. God doth command his faithful manservant Jebediahn to then burn the web of the widening world, and to burn all the houses of iniquity in which the clients and servers were stored, but before doing so, to pulleth all the copper wire out of the walls so that it might be made into more glorious weapons and armor for his chosen people. 

19 And so they did and then gave praises and worship unto the Lord Their God for all their days until the great plague came, and wipethed them off the face of the earth, and God decided to set his eyes toward those chosen people known as the Israelites.

- Mezekhiah 43:15-19

Surely this is an obvious sign of the technology that we are all using to currently bandy discussion about on a massive global computer network that is filled with pornography and online merchants? Right?

Oh and by the way Richard, please keep the blessings to yourself there buddy. I’ve read the Bible, and I gotta tell ya, that Lot fella, well he was blessed up pretty good by your god. I think I’ll pass on that shit.

i ... know when to say when is enough

Not.

I’ve never understood why they quote- just because it is written down it is true somehow?  Can someone go round Richards house and quote bits of other religeons at him please.

Why bother? For all that the Jesus freaks understand their own books you might as well be reading them a Harry Potter novel and quizzing them on quantum cryptography based on what’s inside. They don’t care what it actually says, they’re just quoting to support all the shit they make up. It’s all like a bad 10th grade English paper on poetry.

Bog Brother: Amen to the Words of Mezekhiah, for they shall surely come true! You have made a True Believer out of me. Where do I send my money??? 

Ummmm - this was a post about money, no?

Read the Bible and then look around you and you will see that everything that is written in there has happend are is happing now.

AH Yes, and “Things are more like they are now then they ever were before”! - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Funny thing about history.. it tends to repeat itself. Especially among those whom are ignorant enough to ignore it. Saying that things happening in the bible are true because they are happening now is like saying Bell Bottoms were a great idea because people wore them in the 70’s. I will say that the people, probably not a fact but my belief,  that wrote the bible must have been some amazing philosophically/social thinkers!

As a comedian once said (the correct citation escapes me at the moment) the bible is full of people drinking wine and telling stories.

Frankly if ‘survival of the fittest’ was still applicable I’d be a sex symbol- I’m for ever solving computer problems at work.  Instead six packs seem very much to still be in fashion.

ah, but you are not very ‘fit’ as you have described. You assume that intelligence is a more favorable trait than strength. While the truth of the matter is Animals (including humans) are naturally more attracted to mate that is more likely to survive in the ‘wild’. Intelligence is not a trait that is as easy to distinguish as physical fitness. We could also start a discussion on the fact that people that are more physically fit tend to live longer therefore making them more ‘fit’ creating offspring if you would like….

...or try to convence myself that i can do wrong all my life and not get punished for it in the end.

I do not think you quite understand the idealism of Agnosticism/Athisism. We do not ‘convince ourselves that we can do wrong’. We actually believe in doing the ‘right thing’ BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. I know, I know.. crazy isn’t is. Doing the right thing and not having to be threatened with eternal damnation! Call it a demented form of Humanity…

I wish I could go on, but I am relatively tired of proving your points moot.

At this point in my life I am hoping you take offense as you all have offended me on multiple occasions.

My sign when I sign up:

“I went to god just to see, and I was looking at me… saw heaven and hell were lies.”  the reflecting god - MM

“the beautiful people, the beautiful people.
it’s all relative to the size of your steeple.
you can’t see the forest for the trees.
you can’t smell your own sh*t on your knees” MM

This is an interesting site, but quite scary. Seen this link somewhere else and decided to take a look. I would like to add a few things.  Have you ever seen a true believer drive a plane into a building or start a cult and in the end kill everyone? Or maybe go to school and kill everyone. It’s strange? It’s usually the non believers, or the ones who do not put God first in their lives.  Maybe that is what is wrong with the world angeleyes. Since you do not like us telling OUR children about God until they have the chance to make that decision, do you teach your children that their is no God? Maybe you should preach what you teach. With what Richard said, maybe the non believers should read the bible instead of make fun of it. If you actually study the bible, you can see that the prophecy is all there.  The world is getting bad.  As a child I did not worry I would get shot when going to school, now I pray for my kids safety. Live by Gods word and things would change.  So much sex, lies, and violence these days.  I fear for our children and grandchildren. Check out these sites, it won’t hurt since you do not believe in him.  Think of it as something else to read.

For prophecy see this site.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jesusarose/SIGNS.htm

Who created God? See this site.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/who_created_god.html

Aquaria- I’ve had conversations with believers who still trotted out St. Anselm’s Ontological Argument (11th century) and even Augustine’s tired old proof for the existence of God (4th century).  All long since refuted, and no better today than they were back then.

OMFSM. You have got to be kidding…

You know, hearing that kinda makes me glad that I’ve spent most of my life in Texas. They’re just not smart enough down here to know who Anselm is, and everybody knows Saint Augustine is a kind of grass. From Florida. And it’s probably named after one of those idols from the Catholic Church, which isn’t Christian, so it doesn’t matter.

The only reason they use Aquinas around me is because they think their preacher came up with the uncaused cause argument his own self, just like that! He’s really smart, y’nu?

I love watching faces drop when I tell them they’re using the arguments of one of the Catholic church’s greatest philosophers—and he still did it better (not to mention more elegantly)...700 years ago. Bonus: Most of the people who make this argument hate Catholics with a passion. You can see them struggling to discount the uncaused cause argument on that basis alone, but knowing they don’t have a fallback argument. So they’re really in a bind. That’s usually when they’ll snarl, “Oh,  you atheists think you’re so smart!” and flounce away.

And I say to their backs, “That’s what I thought. Come back after you’ve read it!”

God is real.  It is sad to know such hate against god and people exist, but it is reality. How can you live your life believing you will just die and your soul will not go anywhere? Here is one for you hellbound athiests. Science has proven that energy cannot be destroyed. It can be transferred. We are energy. Therefore, our physical bodies can die, but our souls/energy will go somewhere. Mine is going to heaven. I do not have to prove anything to you,but just give you something to think about.

God is real.

Proof?

It is sad to know such hate against god and people exist, but it is reality.

Hey, I don’t hate people- I just wish some of them would grow up and think about what really needs being done in the world.  And I sure don’t hate God- do you hate Santa Claus?

How can you live your life believing you will just die and your soul will not go anywhere?

One day at a time, just like you.

Here is one for you hellbound athiests.

That’s “atheist”, and I’m hellbound on the day that Santa leaves coal in my stocking.

Science has proven that energy cannot be destroyed. It can be transferred. We are energy.

Hey, I agree with you!

Therefore, our physical bodies can die, but our souls/energy will go somewhere.

Our energy/mass will disperse- is that what you mean by “go somewhere”?  And how do you get that our energy/mass equals our soul?  If, by “soul”, you mean some sort of immaterial spiritual essence, then the soul is not part of our energy/mass.  If you mean something like “mind”, then that is not the particles/mass/energy itself, but part of the dance it does.  And that dance ends at death, as the particles go off to dance with new partners.  It’s not the meat, it’s the motion, as they say.

Mine is going to heaven.

If that thought gives you strength, more power to you.  I don’t see any evidence that it’s true, however.  And puleeze don’t quote Bible verses at us- we’ve all read it, and don’t believe it.  Unless you want me quoting the Book of Smee to you.

I do not have to prove anything to you,but just give you something to think about.

If you’d checked out the archives at this site, you would have seen that most of us have already given a great deal of thought to it.  Here’s something for you to think about.  Cheers.

God is real.

Which is followed by….

I do not have to prove anything to you,but just give you something to think about.

Given the statement you made it sure sounds like you have something to prove so as Zilch asked,.....

Proof?

Here, I’ll help you by assigning you your homework. Twice in the bible Jesus tells two different groups that he’d be back with his fathers kingdom before they had all passed on. Find me one person from each of those groups. And no trying to twist the words of the book, Jesus wasn’t speaking to you or me but people in front of him back then. 2 warm living bodies with proof of their age of around 2000+ years is all you need.

FYI, I’ve been using this assignment for quite some time now. I’ve been called lots of names and heard some really good excuses but still haven’t had anyone pony up with evidence. Let’s see if cms can be the first.

Leah’s comment was trapped in moderation due to her links. I find it amusing that she finds SEB to be “scary”, but then I imagine anything that challenges her world view is probably scary. She asks:

Have you ever seen a true believer drive a plane into a building or start a cult and in the end kill everyone?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have. The events of 9/11 were the actions of True Believers™. It was also True Believers™ that committed mass suicide at Jonestown.

Or maybe go to school and kill everyone. It’s strange?

It’s not all that strange. Faith has moved people to do all sorts of things, good and bad, throughout mankind’s existence that they might not do if they had been thinking rationally.

It’s usually the non believers, or the ones who do not put God first in their lives.  Maybe that is what is wrong with the world angeleyes.

Most of the acts you listed are committed by True Believers™, so how can you turn around and then say it’s usually the unbelievers?

Since you do not like us telling OUR children about God until they have the chance to make that decision, do you teach your children that their is no God? Maybe you should preach what you teach.

With my daughter when the subject of religion and belief came up I made a point of explaining not only my point of view, but those of the various faiths she was asking about. I have never dictated to her how she should believe, but have always encouraged her to learn as much as she can about the different world views and make up her own mind on the subject.

She’s pretty much an atheist herself today, but she got there by her own decision making process and not because I told her it was the only right and proper stance to take. In fact when she discusses people’s religious beliefs with me these days I often annoy her by playing “God’s Advocate” and arguing the point of view of believers. This makes her think about her opinions and why she holds them. I encourage her not to hold an opinion without some reasoning to back it up.

So tell me, do you do the same, Leah?

With what Richard said, maybe the non believers should read the bible instead of make fun of it. If you actually study the bible, you can see that the prophecy is all there.

Maybe you should read more of the archives and not assume that we haven’t read the Bible when most of us have, several times, as has already been mentioned in this very thread. It makes you look like an ignorant ass when you presume to tell us to study the Bible when we already do.

The rest of your comment is typical True Believer™ babbling so I’ll leave it at this for now.

Have you ever seen a true believer drive a plane into a building or start a cult and in the end kill everyone?

What? Just…....What? I’ve never seen anyone but a True Believer™ do anything like that.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have. The events of 9/11 were the actions of True Believers™. It was also True Believers™ that committed mass suicide at Jonestown.

Maybe you should re-read this on Jonestown.  This is not a Christian, and us Christians do not believe in anything of the sort.  As for 9/11, that is not what us Christians believe either.  Get it straight.  Maybe you should go to church and you will see we do not try to poison our members with cyanide or we are not taught to kill.  Too much crazy in this world today.

I was waiting for Leah to reply with the No True Christian™ fallacy.

Well now - perhaps the differences between fat-tailed sheep and thin-tailed sheep are important to them, and to shepherds maybe, but to the rest of us you are all sheep with minor differences.

Muslims, Mormons and cultists are as much True Believers™ as you.

Julian, please. If TB’s have one dogma, it’s that they are all good and all the others are not. In other words, ingroup bias.

The TB’s have elevated the No True Scotsman fallacy to an art form; if the local priest gets caught buggering minors, it’s not a problem—he was simply exposed as not being the right kind in the first place.

Oh I agree with what you said Elwed, sure. But even though my comment was phrased as if I was addressing Leah, I actually wasn’t.

I’m not under the impression that TBs can be reasoned with. When I address any of their arguments, it is simply to state my opinion/rebuttal for the record. In case any casual reader/lurker thinks that we don’t have a logical answer for TB BS.

Any kind of rebuttal or argument I make to a TB post is never intended to convince said TB.